Who'd Win in a Fight?

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]It's a game as old as time itself. Many people all across the world partake in its grand tradition without even realizing it. It can make enemies of friends, and turn brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor.

Who would win in a fight?

Who'd win in a fight, Fred Flintstone or George Jetson? Who'd win in a fight, Van Helsing or Buffy the Vampire slayer? George Washington or Abraham Lincoln? Megatron or the Cobra Commander? Mary Kate and Ashley or Tia and Tamera? Bob Barker or Dick Clark?

So, what I would like to do is bring this eternal debate to the OtakuBoards. The rules of the debate are simple: The combatants must be similar in character, ability, profession or reputation. Clear and elaborate reasons must be given for your desicion. The combatatents in your scenario may use any and all resources at their disposal. Please don't turn this into spam.

After one potential battle has been debated thoroughly, a new one may be proposed. Multiple debates may go on simultaniously, as long as participants are clear in who they refer to.

So, I'll start us off with a simple one:

Who'd win in a fight, the Aliens or the Predators?

I've got to put my money on the Aliens. Seriously, these guys have proven, again and again, that they are the perfect killing machines. Alien trumps everybody. An individual Predator would probably beat an individual Alien (unless it was close combat, in which case the Alien's acid blood would get all over the Predator, killing ormaiming it), but traditionally, Aliens hunt in packs. And, after they win, they layt eggs in the fallen Predators, thus taking on the skills and abilities of the slain.

If you really don't understand why Aliens would win, just remember all the havoc a single Alien caused in the original movie. Then recall that the alien in that movie was just a baby. :demon:

I await the Predator supporters.
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[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

:cool: Oh baby, here we go....

I'll be the first to admit that one Alien can indeed wreak havoc on a bunch of people, but those people have to be pretty unprepared to deal with it. When people ARE prepared, they do a lot better as far as numbers go (people killed vs. Aliens killed). Really the problem is always that people don't have the firepower on them.

Predators... hmmm, well Danny Glover managed to take out a Predator, so based on that I'd say the Predators don't stand a chance against ANYTHING, let alone Aliens.

BUT!! In the DC comics (Superman vs Aliens, Batman vs Aliens, Batman vs Predator, etc.) the Predators are always a lot more difficult to deal with than the Aliens. Of course in each case Supes and Bats have as much firepower as they'll ever need. (Batman actually made himself a super-strength suit to combat the Aliens, so he kicked their ***. But anyways...)

Well, I'd put my money on the Predators unless the Alien numbers are simply overwhelming. Why? It's simply that the Predators are "cooler" and more "good-guy-ish," in addition to having one heck of an arsenal on them. Laser cannons (some are really big, too) will pretty much get the job done alone, but I'm sure they have other stuff up their sleeves as well. Sure, the claws won't do much good due to the acid blood, and I don't see the cloaking/heat-seeking helping either, but it seems to me that there will be something else that the Predators would come up with.

Basically, I think a prepared human can take out at least one alien (Ripley did, anyway), and I think a prepared Predator is tougher than a prepared human (unless that human is Batman).

Though with AVP coming out soon, I'm sure we'll see everything the two species can dish out.

[Brasil]

Two things, firstly.

One, SPOILER TAGS, lol. We're talking about something that some people may not have seen/read, so let's Spoiler this, people.

Second, what everyone must keep in mind when talking about preparation in the fight against Aliens or Predators, is that [spoiler]the humans still die[/spoiler]. Let's go through this systematically, starting with the Alien series.

[b]Ridley Scott's Alien:[/b]

We've all seen it, and we've all loved it. We watch the [spoiler]unlikely heroine, Ripley, overcome a nightmarish deviant sexual predator[/spoiler], on an isolated ore freighter deep in space. The tagline reads: "In space, no one can hear you scream." It looks extremely grim for Ripley. That goes without saying. The Alien easily [spoiler]devours/kills/rips apart, etc[/spoiler] Ripley's crew. It is only through adaptation that Ripley [spoiler]survives[/spoiler]. Now, this can be viewed as lack of preparation, surely, but the lack of preparation is not the fault of the crew of the Nostromo.

They were simply following Company policy, and were never designated for a rescue/reconaissance mission to begin with. They are miners, essentially, the "average Joe, blue collar employee." They have no reason at all to carry high-tech weaponry, except for the flamethrower, and even then, the flamethrower was nothing flashy.

Given the circumstances, survival was not an option for any of the crew, and this is very strongly supported by the flow of the film.

The only reason that Ripley [spoiler]lives[/spoiler] is because she knows what is around her (the airlock, the harpoon, the coolant jets, etc).

Really, there are two different types of "preparation" of the series. I think the best way to categorize them is...the preparation in Alien is knowledge.

[b]James Cameron's Aliens:[/b]

And the preparation in Aliens is technology.

The Marines are battle veterans. They are trained for combat. We expect them to survive, because this is what they do. We see the SmartGuns; we see the rifles, shotguns, grenades, magazines, etc. We see this unbending regiment of high-tech soldiers, ready to blow the **** out of anything that moves. As I recall, one of the dropships had a "BugKiller" logo on it, or something to that effect. Combat is what these Marines live for. They love it, except maybe for Hudson ("Game over, man, game over!").

Now, if they are so well-prepared why do they [spoiler]die[/spoiler], you may ask. The answer is simple. They have very little knowledge of the colony itself. Burke, one who works for the Company, knows absolutely nothing about the layout.

And because of this lack of knowledge of the colony, the Marines meet an untimely end. One of the final scenes in the film, the scene in which [spoiler]Ripley and the Marines realize they forgot to seal up the access hatchways; Hicks climbs up on a ladder, pops open a grate, turns his head to see quite a few Alien warriors crawling toward them[/spoiler], proves this.

The Marines still had enough ammo and weaponry to make a stand, and they would have been able to fend off the attack, had they had complete knowledge of the facility, the kind of knowledge that allowed Ripley to [spoiler]survive[/spoiler] in the original. Had they possessed the complete knowledge of the colony, the access hatchway infiltration would not have been possible.

Basically, you can have the greatest weaponry known to man and still get slapped around if you don't know where everything is.

[b]Alien 3 and Resurrection:[/b]

I really don't even count Resurrection as an Alien film, simply because it has one of the worst excuses for a set-up I've ever heard of. I'll make this brief, because quite frankly, the last two entries in the Alien saga just aren't worth talking about at length. There is really no meat to them at all, so...

I'd be inclined to say that everyone died in Alien 3 due to a combination of lack of both types of preparation. While the prisoners certainly knew the layout of the complex, they did not possess Ripley's adaptive qualities. And really, they didn't know the layout all that well, come to think of it. Only one or two of them really knew where things were.

Okay, now let's move on to Predator.

[b]Predator 1 and 2:[/b]

Arnold in the jungle, has to fight an [spoiler]alien invader/bounty hunter[/spoiler], in a sense. Yes, the Predator is unbelievably powerful, possesses deadly weaponry and [spoiler]kills everyone but Arnold and the woman[/spoiler], but why? How? Arnold figures it out late in the film.

The Predator has a very strict code of combat conduct. If its opponent has a weapon (the machine guns in Predator 1, for example), then the Predator will utilize its own high-tech, projectile weaponry. However, this also means that if the opponent is limited to hand-to-hand combat, the Predator must toss aside his blades, shoulder cannon, even mask. Gray Fox in Metal Gear Solid is the Predator of the game, both literally and figuratively.

Now, I realize the Predator assessment was extremely brief, but let's hit the conclusion.

When matched up against each other, Alien vs Predator, the Alien will win. Here is why.

The Alien is close-combat only, and it would besmirch the Predator's honor if the Predator were to engage in long-range combat, because it so clearly has the advantage in long-range. I think it is very reasonable to say that a Predator would much prefer a fight somewhat weighted in the opponent's favor, than a guaranteed Predator victory.

It is because of this strict adherence to honor that the Alien would win. We have all agreed that in close-combat, the Alien would be the victor, and considering what we have seen in the respective series, both in the films themselves and comics (although, Sciros, you [i]know[/i] the only reason Bats or Supes win is because they're the hero of their respective comics, lol, so using those comic books as support is like stacking the deck), there is no question that the Alien would win.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Har. I used my comic examples just to point out who is more difficult to take on, the Aliens or Predators. The Predators seems so, but really it's because they're JUST as much trouble in far fewer numbers.

You're right about the code of honor though, and that might get a non-ultra-badass Predator killed (I'm sure there are some out there). But how would you say a Predator would do if it was an all-out to-hell-with-honor fight? (Well in AVP it's some rite of passage for a Predator so I don't think we'll necessarily see it there, but that's how I was viewing the situation.)

[Shiguru]

Predator all the way... unless like Sciros said the numbers are too surreal.

The code of honor doesn't exist for the Xenomorphs as the Yajuta have been hunting them for centuries according to the Aliens vs. Predator novels. And they are the toughest prey they regularly hunt (believe it or not humans are also on the list as they have been comming to earth for a long time. There was a comic where a union soldier took one down in 1863. Humans are resourceful and smart, and are worthy prey for that reason.)

Want proof that the preds have been hunting Aliens for centuries: Look at the xenomorph skull in Predator 2 or hunt down some of the AvP comics.

Preds have entire new codes for dealing with Aliens since thier normal honor code can't apply if they want to survive. Hell, the colony LV-something-something from Aliens was one of thier hunting grounds according to some of the comics.

(oh, Animefangurl.. you didn't have to put spoilers on your post as those movies are classics, old, and everyone who posts in this thread has probably seen them.)

[Brasil]

Now this is a fun topic. Also, I'd like to pre-emptively apologize for the geekiness of this reply. I really should be shot for doing this, lol. Here we go...

But remember, Sciros, Aliens have neither compassion nor any sense of honor at all. They'll go right for the throat regardless of whether or not you've got a weapon. Actually, correction. The [spoiler]Queen Alien is the only intelligent Alien, because she doesn't attack Ripley right away, as Ripley is holding a flamethrower near her babies. Maternal instinct. A very nice touch on the part of Cameron, wouldn't you say?[/spoiler]. But based on what I've read regarding AvP, it's simply a warrior Alien, not a Queen. Though, that would be [i]extremely[/i] interesting, if the Alien of AvP were a Queen.

But to answer your question, and to also lead into Shigeru's points...

[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0370263/plotsummary]AvP plot summaries[/url]

[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0370263/trivia]AvP trivia[/url]

[url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100403/trivia]Predator 2 trivia[/url]

In our discussion about Aliens fighting Predators, and who would win, we've mentioned AvP and the EU comics. But I find myself questioning the validity and connection between AvP/comics and Predator 2.

Predator 1 was released in 1987, and I think it's reasonable to say that it actually took place in 1987, given the jungle conflict present in the movie.

The AvP comics were first published in August of 1989.

Predator 2 was released in 1990, but bases itself in 1997.

Now, screenwriting is a rather labor-intensive process and often, a screenplay takes about 5 or 6 months to write. There are some authors who can bang them out quickly, but on average, let's give it half-a-year. Also, [url=http://www.norcalmovies.com/Predator2/]this page[/url] may assist us in pinning down Predator 2's development. While I don't want to fully trust this site, it's the best we have to go on. If P2 really was filming on August 24th, 1990, the script had been completed far before that.

Now, given the setting (a heatwave in CA), filming would have made the most sense during the summer. The majority of [url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100403/locations]filming[/url] was done in Los Angeles, as well.

This summer filming places the script completion somewhere around early 1990, possibly January or even December of 1989. It seems only fair to give P2 a few months for pre-production, casting and so forth.

If the script had been completed in January, that means it would have been started sometime in July of 1989, which is a month before the first AvP comic was published. I'm not suggesting that this is insanely important or anything, but it's still worth mentioning, I think.

Okay, now let's talk about the skulls. There are a wide variety of skulls in that shrine, and we could say the same thing about any of them. It's certainly plausible that [i]any[/i] one of those skulls belongs to a creature the Predators have been hunting for centuries. So, Shigeru, I see what you're getting at, but in all fairness, any one of those creatures could have been just as, if not more deadly, than the Aliens. Of course, they could also have been incredibly weak, but we just can't be sure and if they were weak, why would the Predators hunt them at all.

Considering this, we have to ask ourselves: is there a real connection between Predator 2 and AvP comics, or is it merely coincidence? I honestly think it's more coincidence than anything else.

But where does the AvP movie fit into all of this? This is best answered in terms of the Alien Saga Timeline.

The AvP movie is based in the early 21st century, on Earth. Now, that would mean the AvP movie is a prequel to the Alien series. After all, Ridley Scott's Alien is dated "Sometime in the future," and Cameron's Aliens takes place 57 years after that. In the span of those 57 years, LV-426 has been colonized with rather rudimentary atmospheric stabilizers. Prior to Alien, it's very safe to say that LV-426 had never been touched by human feet, and given the premise of AvP, how is that possible? If humans--Weyland himself--discovered the Aliens long before the Nostromo ever was sent out, how is it that LV-246 had never been explored? [url=http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v151/madsatirist/Album%201/PDVD_593.jpg]Retrieving a specimen[/url] in Alien makes no sense if humans had already had experience with the Aliens in AvP, and had access to specimens on Earth. They would simply go colonize LV-426, no need for the Nostromo to do anything.

So...using AvP (comic/movie) as support is risky, because there are some rather significant snags with their interactions with the series themselves.

Did I make any sense at all?

When we're finished with this discussion, and in keeping with my Alien mood, lol...

Sarah Connor versus Ellen Ripley.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Well, now we're going to have to get into what's regarded as Alien and Predator canon. Do the novels count? I know that sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. (I'm not sure who regards any of the Star Wars novels, besides perhaps Shadows of the Empire and the Timothy Zahn books, as canon in regards to that universe.) Halo novels do apparently count as canon, though, and Bungie actually will include stuff the novels reference in Halo 2.

Anyway, if the Predator novels count, then we can't just go by what the movies say (especially since the only real evidence we have of Alien/Predator interaction in those films IS an Alien's head on a wall).

And if Shiguru is right about the Predators not following their "usual" code of honor in regards to the Aliens, then really the Aliens are in a lot of trouble.

Also, nobody should give a damn as to what fits into what timeline. AVP is a movie that WILL be regarded as canon for sure, regardless of where on the timeline it ends up being. And the comics might, as well. (Really you have to ask the creators and the "true fans" to find that one out.)

[Shiguru]

Well, I don't think any of the extended universe books are cannon. Only Shadows of the Empire and Splinter of the Minds eye seem to make sense and not mess with canon too much.

As for AvP... Anime_fangurl*247 had one helluva geeky reply.. :laugh:

Xenomorphs are one of the Yajuta's most prized prey.. homosapians are also on the list.. but they aren't anywhere near the top.. they are just more resorceful and smarter than much of thier other prey. They love to hunt them so much some have been known to take a queen and put her on a planet to create a new hunting ground. (Like LV-426)

Personally, since none of the comics really mess with continuity in any way or really make drastic changes to characters we know and love I think they can easily be cannon. And the novels are the same way... Steve Perry did some excellent ones.

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Here's something else to consider, on the subject of the Aliens kicking major Predator arse: an Alien only has to win once.

All the Aliens need are one dead Predator, and then what do you get? You get an offshoot group of alien/predator hybrids, loyal to the Aliens. Alien 3 showed us that the Aliens mutate according to the creature they laid eggs in; we had the dog alien, and Kenner produced a whole managerie of alien/animal toys. (My favorite was the Alien cobra).

I'm actually hoping we see an alien/predator hybrid in AvP. This new breed of alien would turn the tides in the favor of the Aliens. True, the Predators rely mainly on technology, but they're not afraid to go [i]mano y mano[/i]. And now, they'd face an enemy that has their best physical traits and instincts, along with the best traits of the aliens, including sheer numbers.

As for Sarah versus Ellen, I'd have to give it to Ripley, on the basis of longevity. She simply survived so much more than Connor did, then died, then was brought back to survive through even more. And, of course, in Resurrection, she's got superhuman abilities. That always helps.[/color][/size][/font]