Lost Friends Over Religion

[No_Regrets]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
And, White Akita, they made you [i]write a report[/i] on your religion? You should be able to refuse to do that. Anyway, here is a virtual breakdown of a typical class. Of 30 students, 15 Good Christians hand in their report on Christianity. 10 students outline their report on the benefit of remaining neutral. 3 students write a flowery report on Buddhism, 1 students fails to hand theirs in, and 1 student is stuck with the 'Wiccan' stigma.

Fairly accurate, ne?[/size][/QUOTE]


Yeah.....People used to think I was Wiccan....and I was for a while.......then I ran out of $ and salt...........But mostly for other reasons I became Atheist. I think that it's nicer to think, that when you die, your dead. Than to think that if you don't practically devote your life to praying and worshiping some 'god' that we don't even know exists.......and like....If you are bad a few times in life or you don't want to worship this ' character from a book' you get to spend a peaceful eternity burning and suffuring in HELL. I like to live, and not be concerned with suffering when I die. and part of living is being good, and being bad. EVERYONE is a bad person at some point in time. It's nicer to think the way of the Atheist. In my oppinion.

[I]Now for the apology: I know this post could be seen as offencive to any/all christians. I do not mean to begin a arguement, or to make anyone angry/ and or convert anyone. PLease don't yell at me because I ment no harm. I really have no problems with christians. I like everyone for what they do and their outlook on life and their way they live......I know religion is a part of it, but it's not something I really ever look at. This was NOT MENT TO OFFEND ANYONE.
[/I]
:( Please don't get angry christians :(

So while I'm at it.....Anyone know a good way to tell your parents you're Atheist? My parents do not know, and my mom was talking about getting me baptized...... My parents are strict Lutherans........ :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Harry]

[quote name='No_Regrets']If you are bad a few times in life or you don't want to worship this ' character from a book' you get to spend a peaceful eternity burning and suffuring in HELL. [/quote]
Do you even know what christianity is about?

As to the original poster, you'd have to be insane to let some girl that reads witchcraft books and uses candles to burn away "old desires" into your house.

[No_Regrets]

[QUOTE=Harry]Do you even know what christianity is about?

As to the original poster, you'd have to be insane to let some girl that reads witchcraft books and uses candles to burn away "old desires" into your house.[/QUOTE]

I'd think NOT since I am a Atheist.....all I know I heard from friends, parents or tv. So I have had a large variety of different mediums go into my thoughts.

Why not? Better to burn a candle the beat someone up with a 2 by 4......... Don't know if that's what you ment....but I'm gonna go with it!
:cool: And you know that the Wiccan religion and these "Witchcraft" books are actually really interesting? I'm serious.....It gives you a different way to look at things.
Am I insane? I don't know let me ask Hank..... You want to know who Hank is? He's flying around my room right now. :D :cool: ;) :p :babble:

[Harry]

[QUOTE=No_Regrets]I'd think NOT since I am a Atheist.....all I know I heard from friends, parents or tv. So I have had a large variety of different mediums go into my thoughts.
[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you're making decisions off of wrong information.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Baron Samedi]Well, ya see Sciros, in regard to the shallow-ness of it.... it is shallow. You do not see religions that spread the word that all people who aren't in their religion are useless bastards who should be burnt at the stake. Essentially, most religions emphasise compassion, and caring, and converting. Right? Most widespread ones, anyway. So, it is shallow to purposely have nothing to do with a person [i]only because of religion[/i']. As a blanket rule, religions do not exist with their fundamental purposes at right angles to each other. They are vaguely heading in the same direction.[/quote]

To say that caring strongly about religious differences is shallow is to write off religion as something superficial, whereas in billions of cases it is NOT. A religion does not have to preach "killing infidels" (although at least one does...) to conflict with another, and because religions (unlike skin color or ethnicity (culture can be like religion at times, so don't confuse ethnicity and culture here just in case)) actually DO have something to do with the way a person leads his/her life. And while many religions, like most people, have things in common (including perhaps the fundamentals, although that is mostly NOT the case unless you're talking about Christian denominations, and even then only [i]some[/i]), the things they differ on often end up really mattering.

When people sometimes have to convert to a certain religion to marry someone, it's really hard to say that religious differences are superficial. Sometimes they may be, but often they aren't.

[No_Regrets]

[quote name='Harry']I'm glad you're making decisions off of wrong information.[/quote]


Thank you Doctor Phil. See how much I care about the christian religion? what's the fuss about?
I posted that topic just to say my oppinions, not to get preached at by anyone.

You know, I've really found myself paitent with this thread, but all you snippy people are ruining this for me, and others, I'm sure. There is no need to be pissy. look I was trying to be nice and have paitence with all of you. Sure this thread has gained my a new friend, but it's also gained me a few not- so much friends. and I do not like that. All I ask is that we all at least keep civil. Look even I've gotten mad. I'm gonna go work on MyOtaku.....

[Harry]

[QUOTE=No_Regrets]Thank you Doctor Phil. See how much I care about the christian religion? what's the fuss about?
I posted that topic just to say my oppinions, not to get preached at by anyone.

You know, I've really found myself paitent with this thread, but all you snippy people are ruining this for me, and others, I'm sure. There is no need to be pissy. look I was trying to be nice and have paitence with all of you. Sure this thread has gained my a new friend, but it's also gained me a few not- so much friends. and I do not like that. All I ask is that we all at least keep civil. Look even I've gotten mad. I'm gonna go work on MyOtaku.....[/QUOTE]
Who said I was pissy? I said you were wrong, which you are. Then I pointed out that you're making decisions off of wrong information.

[James]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade][i]Relativism[/i] as a term often refers exclusively to moral or judgemental relativism. I think that's how Undefeated was using it. (It's obvious he wasn't using it in the general "truth is relative" stance, although in that case relativism is horsecrap also, seeing as it contradicts itself right from the start.) And he [i]is[/i'] right in saying that moral relativism has little place in a society.[/quote]
[color=#707875]I've already written quite an extensive post about this, but I don't see how it is possible to argue against morals being relative.

The very fact that one society will adhere to a particular religion (and set of morals) and another society will adhere to something entirely different, is a sign that these issues are entirely relative.

The fact that individuals have different opinions about personal behavior is just another example that people have "points of view", which itself implies relativism. So saying that relativism doesn't exist is blatantly false.

Whether or not you feel that views being relative is right is an entirely different issue -- it's not one that we're discussing here though. But even then, there is an assumption that your own beliefs and opinions are "right" and that anything that deviates from that is "wrong". That in itself is relative, because it's your point of view versus the view of someone else.

So, someone might disagree with me on an issue of morality for example. They might offer different advice to me. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that their advice is wrong, I'm only going to tell you what I would do in a given situation. If you're the one I'm giving advice to, you can take that or leave it...or you can take someone else's advice. You do what [i]you [/i]think is appropriate. It's highly quaint to think that everybody does or should think in the same way on every "moral issue". It just doesn't reflect reality.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='James][color=#707875']The very fact that one society will adhere to a particular religion (and set of morals) and another society will adhere to something entirely different, is a sign that these issues are entirely relative.[/quote]
Then I was simply not clear enough. I don't mean across multiple societies. I mean within a society (granted, to a certain level, as most societies allow for its people to adhere to some level of moral relativism). The thing is, a society has laws and moral standards (de facto and de jure) that make moral relativism on any "big" scale, well, moot. ... Within lawful boundaries, that is. That is not to say that a society's people cannot and do not subscribe to moral relativism ([i]everyone[/i] does, of course), it is to say that acting on its grounds is antisocial to some degree. Sometimes antisocial enough for a penalty (i.e. illegal), and sometimes not. But do you see what I'm talking about now? That's what was meant when I said moral relativism has little place in a society. A society's rules simply can't afford to allow for too much of it (if that society wishes to remain [i]unchanged[/i], which I hope makes it clear that "antisocial" does not equate to "bad" or "wrong" in any way, just as it does not equate to "right" or "good").

[QUOTE]The fact that individuals have different opinions about personal behavior is just another example that people have "points of view", which itself implies relativism. So saying that relativism doesn't exist is blatantly false.[/QUOTE]
Of course. I never said relativism doesn't exist. That's like saying the Earth is flat. Relativism is true in many situations, to certain degrees. All I wrote off as horsecrap was the all-encompassing "truth is relative" version of relativism, which basically claims there is no absolute truth (which is obviously wrong, because saying "there is no absolute truth" is an attempt at an absolute truth in itself).

[QUOTE]Whether or not you feel that views being relative is right is an entirely different issue -- it's not one that we're discussing here though. But even then, there is an assumption that your own beliefs and opinions are "right" and that anything that deviates from that is "wrong". That in itself is relative, because it's your point of view versus the view of someone else.[/QUOTE]
I never said whether I felt "views being relative" is right or wrong. In some cases it's TRUE, in others it's FALSE. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it.

[James]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]Then I was simply not clear enough. I don't mean across multiple societies. I mean within a society (granted, to a certain level, as most societies allow for its people to adhere to some level of moral relativism). The thing is, a society has laws and moral standards (de facto and de jure) that make moral relativism on any "big" scale, well, moot. ... Within lawful boundaries, that is. That is not to say that a society's people cannot and do not subscribe to moral relativism ([i]everyone[/i] does, of course), it is to say that acting on its grounds is antisocial to some degree. Sometimes antisocial enough for a penalty (i.e. illegal), and sometimes not. But do you see what I'm talking about now? That's what was meant when I said moral relativism has little place in a society. A society's rules simply can't afford to allow for too much of it (if that society wishes to remain [i]unchanged[/i'], which I hope makes it clear that "antisocial" does not equate to "bad" or "wrong" in any way, just as it does not equate to "right" or "good"). [/quote][color=#707875][/color]
[color=#707875]Of course. I agree with you there. But that's very different from saying that relativism has no place in society. Relativism is simply part of what modern society [i]is[/i]. If you're a thinking, feeling human being...then chances are you're going to have differing views on a broad array of issues (moral or otherwise).

So your perception and so on, compared to what other people think and feel, is something that is relative. Therefore, relativism exists and there are certain levels of it within any given society. That's all I'm saying.[/color]

[quote=ScirosDarkblade]
Of course. I never said relativism doesn't exist. That's like saying the Earth is flat. Relativism is true in many situations, to certain degrees. All I wrote off as horsecrap was the all-encompassing "truth is relative" version of relativism, which basically claims there is no absolute truth (which is obviously wrong, because saying "there is no absolute truth" is an attempt at an absolute truth in itself). [/quote][color=#707875][/color]
[color=#707875]Then basically we agree. This is why I say that it's not useful to make broad generalizations -- I said that relativism (in regard to personal morals) exists and that it's only natural. In terms of "truth", you then have to decide what "kind" of truth you're talking about...whether it has to do with religion, science, politics, etc...

But that's another discussion. I was only referring to people's personal beliefs, which are relative when compared against each other.[/color]

[quote=ScirosDarkblade]
I never said whether I felt "views being relative" is right or wrong. In some cases it's TRUE, in others it's FALSE. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE][color=#707875][/color]
[color=#707875]You did say, however, that relativism doesn't have a place in society (or should I say, you agreed with a statement to that effect). Therefore you implied that relativism is something you disagree with. If I've interpreted that incorrectly, it might be useful to more carefully consider how you word it (and believe me, I'm guilty of not being terribly clear in my wording at times, so it's no problem).

In terms of something being true or false, again, it depends what you're talking about (whether it's personal morals, or something on a broader scale).[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I guess you could say I was looking at moral relativism from the society's point of view and not the individual's. To an individual, moral relativism is THE way he/she leads life; it's a fact. To a society, moral relativism is never safe and sometimes outright dangerous (hence the standardization of a lot of moral issues though law). While moral relativism is an unescapable reality, even from a society's point of view, it is something that a society does not really "want" and tries to control.

[James]

[color=#707875]Yep, I think we're now getting right to the core of the issue. This also reminds me of the discussion about "faking it" -- what people will do to fit in to society's norms.

I would say that generally, society's laws are based on certain extremes of "moral/immoral" behavior. Generally, laws are based on behavior that hurts or negatively impacts someone else.

Whereas in personal morals, there's a lot more leeway because you're talking about things that don't necessarily break the law as such...it just comes down to what you or I would find tolerable in our personal lives.

Anyway, I fear that we're straying a bit here...lol. In terms of how this relates to losing friends over religion, I think I may have been trying to draw the link between these two issues, by saying that it comes down to how important religion is to someone (and therefore, how important they think it is for others to be aligned to their beliefs in their daily life). But that's not something I can answer...I mean, like I said before, I have my own views about it. And I have my own standards or expecations when it comes to friends and other people have theirs. *shrug*[/color]

[No_Regrets]

Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I was having a bad time last night.....^_^ But yeah, This post is going down in fl-ames (as wolfwood said) Whatever. I think I'm done here. :D :cool:

[Dan L]

Harry- there's a little thing called being constructive. You did a very good job of showing what No_Regrets is flawed on, but you failed abismally to actually do anything about it. Try being a little more humble and focus more on helping, rather than proving that either you're right or the other person is not.

[quote name='No_Regrets']:( Please don't get angry christians :([/quote]

It saddens me deeply that Christians have a reputation for being intolerant and that people have to watch what they say in order to not offend them. Given the actual message of the gospel, of grace for everyone, it's a very distorted view of what Jesus was really all about.

But what is even sadder isn't the fact that Christians are viewed that way, but the fact that that view is justified in the vast majority of Christians- as people's experiences in this thread shows.

[QUOTE=No_Regrets]Yeah.....People used to think I was Wiccan....and I was for a while.......then I ran out of $ and salt...........But mostly for other reasons I became Atheist. I think that it's nicer to think, that when you die, your dead. Than to think that if you don't practically devote your life to praying and worshiping some 'god' that we don't even know exists.......and like....If you are bad a few times in life or you don't want to worship this ' character from a book' you get to spend a peaceful eternity burning and suffuring in HELL. I like to live, and not be concerned with suffering when I die. and part of living is being good, and being bad. EVERYONE is a bad person at some point in time. It's nicer to think the way of the Atheist. In my oppinion.

[I]Now for the apology: I know this post could be seen as offencive to any/all christians. I do not mean to begin a arguement, or to make anyone angry/ and or convert anyone. PLease don't yell at me because I ment no harm. I really have no problems with christians. I like everyone for what they do and their outlook on life and their way they live......I know religion is a part of it, but it's not something I really ever look at. This was NOT MENT TO OFFEND ANYONE.
[/I][/quote]



I'd just like to ask something of you- Never apologise to a Christian (or anyone else for that matter) about what you believe.

OK, it's true that Christians believe that there's only one way to heaven, and that's through Jesus- but it's been misrepresented so badly over the years that people have come to think that that means "God is sending you to hell unless you become a Christian".

In all truth heaven isn't going to be full of christians- and there are lots of Christians who won't make it in. And that's because it's a personal faith in God/Jesus- NOT the "Christian" label and lifestyle, that counts, at the end of the day. There are parts of the world today where there are Muslims, who worship and follow Jesus rather than Allah, and follow the Bible rather than the Koran- they worship in a mosque, just as they always did (They are NOT Christians- in that they wouldn't want to be called that). The only difference between them and the other Muslims is [i]who[/i] they follow, whereas in the West the message is given that it's not just who we follow, but also who we follow him with.

Catholics aren't going to heaven, Protestants aren't going to heaven- name any denomination you like, I assure you that the Bible does not give them an all expenses paid ticket there. The only thing that makes any difference at all to your salvation is "have you accepted Jesus". If you also happen to be a Protestant or a Catholic or whatever, then that's fair enough, but that makes no difference whatsoever.

Also, as Christians we seem to have forgotten the long path that a lot of us have come from. When I look back to my first week or two as a Christian, I had some of the dodgiest theology going. I didn't really know the significance of marriage, or even that it should come before sex, nor did I know the Biblical stance on homosexuality, I knew nothing at all about praying, and didn't particularly think that everything in the Bible was necessarily true.

What I have gained on Earth in the last two years is a fair amount of knowledge and experience- some of which may even be a hindrance to my faith if I take it too seriously. However, my salvation has not changed one bit. God is no closer to me now, nor any further away, and heaven is no more or less certain. Sometimes as Christians we can forget the distannce we've come in our faith, and equally we can forget that we were saved every second of it.
And so very rarely do we actually make the connection that someone doesn't have to actually believe the same as us in order to be saved- they don't have to go to church every sunday in a massive old building, or a shiny new one, or whatever building a church can meet in. You don't have to read the Bible, you don't have to pray, fast, or anything else. All these things are very, very useful, but only after you have faced one simple fact: that Jesus' salvation is not conditional.
It's not conditional on what you do, what you think, what you believe, or anything else- it's not conditional. And once you realise that, you can start showing the same unconditional love to others- regardless of what they do, think, believe, etc. Just as God wants us to.

Anyway, that was a long rant about what Christianity is all about really, and what the Gospel really means. When it comes to faith, there is a hell of a lot more to it than that- but if you try and do that without the gospel it gets you absolutely nowhere so it wasn't my intention to touch on that subject.

[No_Regrets]

Well, at my school, I'm really put down about being atheist. I live in mennonite central; IOWA. And I'm kinda shunned by my teachers too. So I guess I'm used to being kinda like that.

thanks

[Zen]

[color=green][size=1]


I'm not going to get all tangled in the conversation about "athiest pride" or anything (although its basically being proud of the beleif of nothing at all...) I'm going to say this.

Its not commen curtisy to walk into someones humble abode and begin hackin or carving away at something of their possession as this can easily be mistinerpreted as them walking in the room, seeing you in the act, and thinking your a doing this in order to scare them or maybe even with the intintions of killing and/or harming them. Aswell, I sure as hell would be 'displeased' if someone began destroying a possession of mine and then said it was part of their 'relegion' in spite. Its still no excuse. And its kinda rude, weird, and above all, not to freindly.

Another thing I'm going to say is that if you are harrassed because of your wicca relegion, its most likely because it is stereotyped into being the whole 'anti-christian evil' thing. I'm not saying that is what it is. Try explaining to people is all I can say and ask them why they beleive its wrong to be freinds with those of other relegion. They may answer the question with ignorance or anger and prove their own immaturity, and you won't need a further answer.

As for myself. My beleifs are my business. I keep that between me, the God and Saviour I beleive in, and the system of morales I hold. I won't go up to some one and say they are wrong, nor would I carve a cross in the wall of a wicca, buhddist, or otherwise non-christian person (this basically being the same action WA doing to someone else, but with a candle). If a person asks me my relegion, I tell them. If a person asks a way for better life, I may suggest my own relegion (from expirience point of veiw). But what I won't do is force it or otherwise suggest it in an unecessary manor.

Extending what Dan L. said. I am of christian faith. Yet I am open to all relegions. This has led me to take into concideration of the philosophies of other relegion. The two main being Buhddism and Islam. Both Jesus and Mohammed said this, and this is supposed to especially apply to chrisitians. "Love the sinner, hate the sin." If a christian beleives something is wrong in their morales, they still should not be hateful to those who commit, but not endow (sp?) in the sin itself. This is something I beleive in highly.

PS- Me being an avade optomist, I thinks its kinda depressing to think the journey of your soul ends with something like death. To me, death will just be another turning point in my soul's time line and its the beggining of another journey. And one more thing. If Jesus didn't exist, then why would they go threw the trouble of making the turning of an era his death ala "B.C".... hmm?[/color][/size]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson][font=tahoma]I don't find it to be entirely absurd, based on the stereotypes Christianity has today of being rather intolerant. That might not be too fair since, well- there are good Christians right here on this board. Hell, in this thread even- Dan and Tori are good examples. [ You know, I find it ironic most of the arrogance is coming from non-Christians in this thread when we are sometimes discussing the dysfunctions of Christians.]

I can understand your plight in a way. Not to tell another mundane, sad life story but I think you should at least know why I say that. I used to be a Jehovah's Witness. They are pretty hardline Christians, maybe even to the point of being considered extremists- nothing against extremists, *cough*. Recently I have slipped into ignosticism [A form of agnostic, that might not make me the most "enlightened" person here, but uh- that's a matter of opinion.] To JW's such faltering would make me an apostate [tada] and would open me to being kicked out of the religion, which would put a heavy strain on my parents since communication with disfellowshipped people is pretty forbidden. So, instead of being shunned by friends it would be my adopted family. Already things have kinda dulled conversation wise- like they avoid talking to me about intellectual things. I also get the vibe they think this is some sort of "phase", too. Maybe it is- oh well, you get the idea. So I can feel for you.

Maybe it is something that shouldn't be tolerated, but it seems to occur alot with more hm. More 'occult'ish religions frequently. But, still.. absurd? Could be. But you should expect it, unfortunately.

I'm off to more placid topics.[/color][/font]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='ReFlux][color=green]PS- Me being an avade optomist, I thinks its kinda depressing to think the journey of your soul ends with something like death. To me, death will just be another turning point in my soul's time line and its the beggining of another journey. And one more thing. If Jesus didn't exist, then why would they go [through'] the trouble of making the turning of an era his death ala "B.C".... hmm?[/color][/quote]

Finality IS something that the human mind finds difficult to rationalize, let alone accept. So I can see how you could find it a depressing thought. But atheists for the most part don't find it depressing at all, because to them it seems reasonable. Looking forward to an afterlife of any sort seems [i]unreasonable[/i] rather than comforting to them. Since an atheist does not believe one exists, to him/her those who do will just be sorely disappointed (well, technically not since they'd be too dead to be disappointed, but you get my drift).

As for your question about the Christian calendar, well there's your answer. Do you know what year it is according to the Jewish calendar?

[TOTALIMMORTAL]

[QUOTE=White Akita][SIZE=3][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]Who here, has ever lost friends over your religion because they are scared of it? I personally, have had parents say to me I'm not welcome in their house anymore, because I read a witchcraft spellbook, and have a fancy for candles and anything sharp. Because of a little thing like that, I'm not welcome.

I personally think this is wrong. Because I have my own beliefs, it doesn't mean I'm different than anybody else. I have had a friend litterally shun me out because I used one of her candles, and made one of my own from it, by scratching things into it. I just feel it helps me get over certain dilemas. It helps me "burn away" old desires. But I guess that scares her. Losing friends.....I don't care anymore, but losing the best friends over a religion or belief, thats absurd. :flaming: What do you think?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Wow. That's really messed up. I personally have never lost a friend to my religion but I have lost friends to certain things I believe in. Some people actually seriously think I'm truly evil and they stay the hell away from me because they're scared of me. I've somehow gained the reputation of being a satanic anarchist, and not many people like that. I'm techniquely catholic cause of my parents, but I consider myself atheist. I've experimented with all kinds of religions and beliefs, I've tried out many but in the end I think no religion is best. I used to worship the devil and I think that's why most people think I'm evil. Not long ago I was Buddhist and that freaked people out too. I really don't know that much about it but your into Wicca right? I actually have two female friends that are both really into witchcraft and I'd never "shun" them because of it. I thinks it's cool, and very interesting. In my opinion, if you have a friend that's scared of your religion or doesn't like you because of it, then that's definitely no friend at all.....

[Justin]

Forgive me, I know my first relpy is late, and I haven't read through this entire topic. I'm merely replying to the very first post.

It's a touchy subject, as are most things about religion. When I first became a Christian and first established my relationship with God, I had to give a lot of friends, because in order to maintain that relationship I had to give up an old lifestyle. It's called being "crucified with Christ." Your former self dies and a new one is resurrected. If that sounds odd, then good--it's a concept many Christians try to overlook.

Even since then, I occasionally have to cut someone's influence. I'll never totally shun anyone, I think that's wrong, and it cuts off all hope of me ever being able to be a witness of God's grace to them. I'll stay in touch, more or less. But their influence on me is severed.

I think those people shuning you for your interest in witchcraft is absolutely wrong. But maybe it's possible one or more of those people were actually real Christians, and maybe your involvment in witchcraft created an inner struggle with them, which they felt obligated to end. It's impossible for me to know. But I apologize for any who has wronged you in the name of Jesus.

God's grace,
-Justin

PS: I just read Dan's post. I must give him a big, fat 'bravo' for that one.