Laws vs. Circumstances?

[Onix]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][SIZE=1]Today, my friend and I had an argument. This argument has posed a question that I think needs to be resolved. But first, some backstory.

My friend is an avid reader and writer of Slash fanfiction (guy x guy couplings). I am perfectly fine with slash and homosexuality, I just generally don't read Yaoi fanfics. One of her preferred media for fanfiction is Harry Potter. One of her favorite couplings is Harry x Snape.

Today, she told me she had figured out a reason why that coupling would never actually work. So did I.

HER REASON-
[spoiler]Snape is a spy, a mole as it were, and thus is would look pretty awkward if a Death Eater was sleeping with Voldemort's greatest enemy.[/spoiler] If you haven't read Book 5 of Harry Potter, you might want to not read that bit.

MY REASON-
It's pedophilia.

This is what caused the true argument to arise. We both agree on one thing. Pedophilia is wrong. However, it's our definitions of pedophilia that has caused the argument. You see, she agrees that a 6-year old and a 40-year old is very, very bad. So do I. But then we differ. She sees no problem with a 15-year old and a 35-year old. I do.

She tried to counter my argument by asking, "is it wrong if a 16- and a 17-year old are dating, and then one turns 18? Can they then not have sex for 1 and half years?" I say no, but that's because there's a simple 1 (1 and 1/2) year difference. However, that is much different from a 20-year difference, which is what we have here.

She states that it's not wrong as long as they're in love, and that it's wrong for that 6-year old and that 40-year old because the 6-year old doesn't understand love. I agree, but I still stand by my convictions that you have to be pretty screwed up to think that a 20-year age gap is okay. Maybe this would seem less one sided if she was also posting her argument, but since she's not a Board member that won't be happening.

What's your stand on the issue? Is she right, is love no matter what the age gaps, more important; or am I right, is the simple fact that one person is (in this case) 15 and the other is 35 more important?[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[mckaylyn]

Number one: Yes a six year old doesn't understand love, save for the love of family, but in some way it understands a TYPE of love. There are many kinds of love. You have to understand this to see my side.
Number two: Granted a 15 year old has a lot more experience in love, it's most often times not Love love. It's more or less an infatuation, unless you would die for that person, because you love them so much. Most people do not understand love untill they are in their 20's where they find someone they love more than life itself. Love is but an infatuation to a certain degree, once past this, then viola love, but you had to have had many infatuations to distinguish between the two. A 6 year old, let alone a 15 year old would not know the difference.

I am 15, but I am beyond the infatuation nonsense, as I am much more mature than most. I have had to go through a lot in my childhood, mostly my mother slipping in and out of death's doorway, and have learned not to take life for granted. I couldn't be a little kid, who has a pathetic crush, so I liked no one. I was alone in my tight shell, and no one could penetrate it. I talked seldom, and therefore didn't make many friends, and didn't give out my love to many. I was alone, so I was safe from having to say goodbye to anyone that I loved, as I may have had to face that with my mother. I harboured my love, it along with my empty lonliness. It felt like the right thing, to be away from people, to be safe, but all it did was make me more and more alone, until I got to 7th grade. There I met someone wonderful, who decided straight off to be my friend. He taught me to open up and to love other people and it took me 3 years to realise it, but I love him every bit as much as I love my sickly mother. Even though it started as a mere friendship, it grew, blossomed to a strong bond-love. That's true love plain and simple. It doesn't matter if we date, or get married or whatever, we have a bond no one can break or even come close to.

Now tell me a 6 or 15 year old (who have not had similar experiences) can know the true meaning of any love.

Then again Harry's parents died, making him susseptable to the coming-ons of teachers - even Snape...so maybe you both aren't wrong, maybe you are both right and both wrong to some degree.

This is only my opinion and a lengthy one at that, and sure many people will despise me for my being blunt, but you asked for my opinion, and I gave it, all of it.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Unborn Lord Xion][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][SIZE=1]Today, me and a friend had an argument. This argument has posed a question that I think needs to be resolved. But first, some backstory.[/SIZE'][/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green][b]Today, my dog and [u]I[/u] had the misfortune of coming across a skunk.[/b]

That however, is irrelevant.[/color]

[quote name='Unborn Lord Xion][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][SIZE=1]My friend is an avid reader and writer of Slash fanfiction (guy x guy couplings). I am perfectly fine with slash and homosexuality, I just generally don't read Yaoi fanfics. One of her preferred media for fanfiction is Harry Potter. One of her favorite couplings is Harry x Snape.[/SIZE'][/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]Thank you for sharing your friend?s perversions with us. We all really needed to know that your friend enjoys reading about gay sex between teenagers and adults.[/color]

[QUOTE=Unborn Lord Xion][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][SIZE=1]It's pedophilia.

This is what caused the true argument to arise. We both agree on one thing. Pedophilia is wrong. However, it's our definitions of pedophilia that has caused the argument. You see, she agrees that a 6-year old and a 40-year old is very, very bad. So do I. But then we differ. She sees no problem with a 15-year old and a 35-year old. I do.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=green]Hopefully the wizarding world has something resembling the ACLU, so that if this ever were to occur, Snape would have some support structure within the magical legal system.

After all, we wouldn?t want a greasy haired, tattooed man who is sexually attracted to young boys to be unfairly judged.[/color]

[quote name='Unborn Lord Xion][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][SIZE=1]What's your stand on the issue? Is she right, is love no matter what the age gaps, more important; or am I right, is the simple fact that one person is (in this case) 15 and the other is 35 more important?[/SIZE'][/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]I move to throw out this entire issue due to the fact that this entire question is based on a fictional scenario, even if that is a minor technicality. Hey, if the [URL=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122614,00.html]Supreme Court[/URL] can do it, why can?t I?[/color]

[Transtic Nerve]

Or Snape is just kinda creepy and totally straight anyway.

It wouldn't work. Harry could choose someone much better looking anyway.

And thats how it goes. Gay guys have much better decision making skills than to choose some creepy old guy.

End of argument, you're both wrong

[James]

[color=#707875]Wow, this thread isn't getting off to a great start, is it? You guys could at least make the [i]attempt [/i]to take the subject seriously. You do a disservice to Unborn Lord Xion by failing to do this.

Anyway, my view is basically that we have to realize we're talking about someone's fan fiction. So we are not discussing a real situation, even though your friend apparently feels that a relationship between a 15 year old and a 35 year old is okay. So that's the first point.

The second point is, how old is your friend? I know that a lot of girls who are fans of same-sex love stories often draw a major distinction between stories that purely resolve around love...and those that revolve around sex. Perhaps she is making that distinction. Maybe she is only looking at it as a question of love (ie: holding hands and cuddling and so on), rather than some kind of pornography. Obviously there's that critical difference there.

So, if she's young, she is possibly only looking at the situation in a fanciful and naive way. Do you know what I mean? This could be very different to the idea of her writing about sex scenes in her literature or whatever.

Even then, I'm not into this whole idea that books and literature are dangerous. That's a very quaint, old-fashioned view. People can write about whatever the hell they want to write about -- I'm not going to stand over their shoulder and censor it.

The time when it becomes a problem, however, is if these things start to be acted out in real life. If she knew about a real relationship between a 15 and 35 year old and thought that was okay...then that is a far more serious issue.

Again, it depends on her age and maturity. She may very well change her view as she grows older.

I don't think anyone here would suggest that a relationship like that is reasonable. Apart from the fact that it's illegal, it's simply not reasonable to suggest that such a relationship is feasable anyway. In that regard, I think you are right in what you're saying to her.

By the same token, we must draw a distinction again...we must point out that homosexuality [i]does not [/i]go hand-in-hand with pedophilia. There's a key difference between writing about a homosexual couple, compared to writing about a couple (male or female) that involves an adult taking advantage of a child.[/color]

[Brasil]

I don't know why, but I keep having the name, Walt Whitman, popping into my head as I read this thread.

Whitman, as you should know, was a homosexual American poet who lived in 1860s Camden, NJ. His poetry is rife with sexual innuendo and blatant deviant language. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily; it just shocks people to no end. But the thing about Whitman (and Oscar Wilde, another homosexual author in 1860s England), is that their writing has a maturity to it. They both were very skilled authors who knew how to work the craft. Reading their stuff, especially Whitman's Leaves Of Grass, you're really blown away. It's great writing.

That's why I don't respect Slash fiction. The majority of it is written by teenagers who possess little to know knowledge of how to write. Ignoring the fact that the subject matter utterly destroys any character foundation or subject foundation of the original works themselves...this is an example of a work ignoring what I call Genre Grounding, but that's another topic for another time.

Because Slash fiction is...immature, even though it often goes with an Adult warning, I can't treat it as having any substantial value in today's social Ideologies regarding same-sex relationships.

So, basically, I think your friend is being awfully naive here to hold that view of same-sex relationships or Pedophilia. Slash fiction is entertainment--and honestly, it's not all that entertaining.

ULX, because your friend is basing her beliefs on Slash fiction, a genre that bases itself on fanciful and immature situations, I've got to award you the fight.

[mckaylyn]

[quote name='James]Wow, this thread isn't getting off to a great start, is it? You guys could at least make the [i]attempt [/i']to take the subject seriously. You do a disservice to Unborn Lord Xion by failing to do this.[/quote]

How was I not taking it seriously. I made no crude jokes what-so-ever.

[Onix]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]James, in answer to your question, my friend is about my age...I think 15 (though I'm certain she doesn't have some 35-year old lover). She does make a distinction between love and sex, and thinks that the whole 15/35 or whatever ages there may be, is okay as long as there's love involved, not simple lust.

[I][quote name='James][COLOR=slategray']By the same token, we must draw a distinction again...we must point out that homosexuality does not go hand-in-hand with pedophilia. There's a key difference between writing about a homosexual couple, compared to writing about a couple (male or female) that involves an adult taking advantage of a child.[/COLOR][/quote][/I]

She is well aware that homosexuality doesn't mean pedophilia, as well. And she doesn't write about adults taking advantage of children. I believe all her writing is consensual, if there is that much sex she writes (I don't believe she actually writes the sex scenes, but I haven't read much of her work).

On that note of her writing: Bean, you are probably right on the grounds that the majority of Slash (much like all fanfiction) is poorly written and trashy. However, the three things I've read by my friend has all been extremely well-written. She is very smart and literate, and understands that most Slash is poorly written trash, much like pulp-fiction.

Thank you for your opinions. Oh, and Boba? She doesn't only write Slash featuring teens and adults. And it's not a perversion, it's her choice. I'm speaking in general terms about the whole pedophila thing, and I don't know if her views extend beyond fiction. I'm fine about her writing it, I'm just not sure if she means that it's true in real life. I'll ask tomorrow when I see her.

-ULX[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Unborn Lord Xion][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]And it's not a perversion, it's her choice.[/COLOR'][/SIZE][/quote]

[color=green][URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perversion]Dictionary.com defines perversion as the act of being perverted.[/URL]

[URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perverted]Dictionary.com defines perverted as ?deviating from what is seen as right and correct?.[/URL]

I?d say that [b]most[/b] people would agree that writing about a sexual relationship between a fifteen-year-old boy and thirty-five-year-old man for gratification is neither right nor correct.[/color]

[Guest Midnight Rush]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green][URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perversion]Dictionary.com defines perversion as the act of being perverted.[/URL]

[URL=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=perverted]Dictionary.com defines perverted as ?deviating from what is seen as right and correct?.[/URL]

I?d say that [b]most[/b] people would agree that writing about a sexual relationship between a fifteen-year-old boy and thirty-five-year-old man for gratification is neither right nor correct.[/color][/QUOTE]


I couldn't agree more. One person's "choice" does not define reality, to think so would be sickening (not only illogical, but defying all fundamentals of decency and civilization) and deeply distrubing.

Think about this:

From the time the Romans took north Africa until 1830-something (33 I think) when the British abolished slavery, the majority of people made the "choice" that blacks were inferior. I severely doubt you or anyone else that was discussing anything rationally would consider blacks inferior, but why would you even entertain the thought that something isn't a perversion because someone's definition of reality (A loose term in this case) calls it such?

*turns away...*

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]A thirty-five year old should not form a bond with a minor that could lead to a sexual relationship. Actually, the mere fact that two people at such varying levels of age and maturity should realizing that by engaging in a sexual act they are proving that they are not truly in love.

If a thirty-five year old was passionately in love with a fifteen year old, he/she would recognize that engaging in sex could seriously harm the fifteen year old socially, psychologically, and physically (if they contracted an STD or became pregnant). A person that is truly in love with another would be willing to abstain from sex until they realize their partner is both an appropriate age and sufficiently mature enough to handle sex, relationships, and all their social ramifications.

A fifteen year old is so emotionally confused dealing with hormones and social situations that they are really incapable of truly being in love. However, quite often relationships formed during this time grow romantic and can even blossom into true love [b]over time[/b]. However, if a fifteen year old was truly in love with a person twenty years their senior they would realize that by engaging in sex they are putting their partner at risk to be socially ostracized and arrested.

Most importantly, it is just really weird when a thirty-five year old claims to be in love with a fifteen year old for reasons other than sexual attraction. Fifteen year olds really aren?t worldly or mature enough to offer a terrible amount to a relationship. They just don?t have enough life experience (obviously I am generalizing, because there are experienced, worldly fifteen year olds?well, maybe one or two anyhow). [/color]

[James]

[QUOTE=Unborn Lord Xion][size=1][color=darkslateblue]

And she doesn't write about adults taking advantage of children. I believe all her writing is consensual, if there is that much sex she writes (I don't believe she actually writes the sex scenes, but I haven't read much of her work).
[/color][/size][/QUOTE]
[color=#707875][font=Verdana][size=2]I just want to point out that if a 15 year old is in a romantic relationship with someone over 18...then that 15 year old is being taken advatage of, whether the relationship is consentual or not. It's a maturity thing (physical as well as mental).[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]In regard to whether or not it's "perverse"...dictionary.com's definition is obviously relative. Anyone can call anything that they don't like perverse. [/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]I think it becomes a serious concern, though, when we're talking about something that actively [i]hurts [/i]someone. And in the case of pedophilia, there are serious concerns about the child's welfare (and make no mistake, a 15 year old is a child, not an adult).[/color][/size][/font]

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]I do wonder one thing, though.

Who decided that eighteen should be the age of consent? It's not as if a maturity switch is thrown in the brain on one's eighteenth birthday.

*wink*[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE=Lady Macaiodh][color=darkblue]I do wonder one thing, though.

Who decided that eighteen should be the age of consent? It's not as if a maturity switch is thrown in the brain on one's eighteenth birthday.

*wink*[/color][/QUOTE]
[color=#707875]You're right, in the sense that 18 is an arbitrary number. But what else would you have the authorities do? Go around and survey every teen who wants to have sex, to assess whether or not they're ready?

It's not perfect, but setting some kind of "basic age" really has to be done, in order to protect kids from molestation (and to ensure that pedophiles are prosecuted, should they become involved in that).[/color]

[Lady Macaiodh]

[color=darkblue]Hence the wink.

Saying it's not perfect is an understatement, though. But I'm the last person to say I have a clue about the subject.

*scratches head in utter confusion*

The subject of sex really depends on the parties involved. Parenting is much the same. It's not like a driving permit, where you can do it as long as you pass a test. It takes maturity, practice, and just plain winging it as you go along. It's something you really have to get used to to get right.

I'd have to agree, though, that 15 and 35 is a bit of a stretch. Oh, well, as long as the whole thing remains fiction. [/color]