.//Reality

[Oceanborn]

What is this reality. Is it, where we do exist? What are we to exist? Is it me making me who I am or are that the others which are making me who I am? It is me making me who I am and the others making me who I am. Then, what is the difference between me and the others? What is describing me as a person, as Me, as someone to be created and as a personality to grow?

[Guest Mimiru]

[COLOR=Pink] [FONT=Comic Sans MS]*totally confused* hmmm... *thinks* Akk- brain cramp! {btw, Hi im new!}[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Luminous]

[quote name='Oceanborn']What is this reality. Is it, where we do exist? What are we to exist? Is it me making me who I am or are that the others which are making me who I am? It is me making me who I am and the others making me who I am. Then, what is the difference between me and the others? What is describing me as a person, as Me, as someone to be created and as a personality to grow?[/quote]


I think thats something you need to answer yourself X| I dunt' even know you.

[Bio]

[font=Trebuchet MS]Okay, you've brought up the universal question: What is reality? If you want a literal definition:

[size=1]
1. The quality or state of being actual or true.
2. One, such as a person, an entity, or an event, that is actual: ?the weight of history and political realities? (Benno C. Schmidt, Jr.).
3. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence.
4. That which exists objectively and in fact: Your observations do not seem to be about reality.[/size]

[size=1] Idiom:
in reality In fact; actually.[/size]


There you go. That's about as simple as it gets. Reality is what you can see, touch, taste, etc. Something that your senses can 'sense'. In other words, what you think up isn't real, until it's converted into a tangible form.

I think the better question, however, is why do you care? I think you're delving a bit too deep into basic logic. You can't understand how, why we exist. Back when I was new I made a thread that had a similar topic to this. I don't think anyone can give a logical explanation to your question. It's just too abstract.

If you're atheist, chances are you believe that the universe was created through the Big Bang, and that mathematical accident caused one central point to spew matter, antimatter, and what-have-you forth to create what we know as the universe.

If you're religious, chances are you believe a deity or deities created everything. Or it could be a combination of both.
[/font]

[Dan L]

Your question in itself may seem a little bit cliched, but it is a very spiritual question in itself.

Before hoardes of people dismiss what I just said, let me explain-

The universe, God or no God, is a creative place, and a created place. You don't necessarily need to believe that God made it out of nothing in order to see this. Even if you think the materials have always been around, they have been shaped by the natural forces of the universe into something infinitely more useful and beautiful- something which far surpasses the work of any artist or creative genius of man.

"[i]Andre Gide describes the time when he observed a moth being reborn from it's chysalis. He was filled with wonder, awe, joy at this metamorphisis, this resurrection. Enthusiastically, he showed it to his professor who replied with a note of disapproval, "What! Didn't you know that the chrysalis is the envelope of a butterfly? Every butterfly you see has come out of a chrysalis. It's perfectly natural." Disillusioned, Gide wrote 'Yes indeed, I knew my [b]natural[/b] history as well, perhaps better than he...But because it was natural, could he not see that it was marvellous? Poor creature! From that day, I took a dislike to him and a loathing to his lessons[/i]" (Source: Richard Foster/Celebration of Discipline, Chapter 5- Study)

A very common problem today among more intellectual types is what I deem as excessive "head-knowledge". Essentially people know all the stuff in their textbooks, and they know all the arguments for and against what they believe, they know how things work, etc. They know stuff in their heads, and they assume that that's all that's really necessary. Like the professor in the quote above, they already know how stuff works- so why on earth should they be amazed by it, captivated by the beauty of the natural?

I'm not saying it's wrong to have lots of knowledge- but if that's all you have then you are a very, very empty being. Just as emotion without some kind of head-control can be a very dangerous thing, a set of boundaries with nothing contained within them makes you hollow.

As I said, we live in a creative and created universe. thus our mindset will take the form that nothing can be unless it is created- whether it is created by a force or a God, or who knows what else.

However, if God is the creator of the universe, then that means that he is outside the barriers of creation. You can't create something from the inside- you can build it around you, so that when it is finished you are inside it, but you can't create it from inside, in that I can't create a car, being already sitting in the car before I set out to build it. God did not create the universe from the point of view that he was already in a created universe- but rather he is outside this law that things are created.

He created the universe, and he created us to create. Our whole lives are meant to be following the pattern of his creation process (ie. the seven day week with one day rest, etc), and to create things ourselves. It doesn't matter what you do as a job, you are creating something. Even if you are only sorting things or cleaning things, you are putting effort in and changing whatever you put that effort into. So our whole lives are a process of creation (also destruction- which when used properly is merely an aid to create some more- but we live in a fallen world, so it's not always like that...), within a universe where creation is a key thing.

However God, even though he initiated all of creation, did not come from the sort of created place that our lives are set in. In fact the very term "came from" in itself infers some kind of creation, which in itself points out my own disposition towards everything being created. The fact is that as we live in a creative world, and God is outside that boundary, we can never really understand how exactly he can be uncreated. It's just useful to know why that is.

OK, up until now I haven't really answered the question, just gone from one random idea to another. But here we go-

The answer to the majority of your questions, from my point of view, is simple. God created you. God created this universe. The universe exists, it's not just some made up fictional thing which we're connected to.

As for who you are- God creates you in a certain way. I am completely different to my housemate Jude- we're practically polar opposites, and that's the way we were made. But there [i]are[/i] things which you get to decide. You get to decide whether you're going to be controlled by your situation, or whether you're going to seize control of your life, for example. Are you going to let everyone and everything else decide your fate, or are you going to find out what you want and go for it with all you've got? That isn't something exclusive to some people and not to others, unlike some personality aspects- it's just something which some people decide to do and others don't, even though they could. You are what God makes you, and what you make yourself. and, to a lesser extent, what everyone else makes you out to be.

Other than that-....

man, I'm tired. I don't know if I've really finished this properly, but heh, I need sleep.

Everything in this post is my opinion and is not necessarily absolute truth, so don't treat it as though I'm shoving it down your throats, please

-dan

[Shi no Tenshi]

I reckon if you can lick it, it's real.

But seriously, I see things in black and white, so I'd say we are very real and that our life is ambiguous (i.e. I don't believe in fate or destiny). Heh, I wrote a poem about this sort of thing once- It was about an invisible friend and the narrator is trying to find out which one of them is real and which one is make believe.

I'm terrible at these sort of questions.

[Oceanborn]

And, yeah, I am an atheist (kind of. I'd rather say, I have my own believings, and I stay out of confessions). So here we go a little more^_^. No offense.

... In that case, what is God? Deus? Is God something we truly believe in? Do we believe in ourselves? Are we our own Gods?

Is God somebody(-thing) allmighty and powerful? What is almightiness? The possibility to absolutely create? The Human also can create; while time passes, the Human learns to create better and better. Is God the a final stage of evolution of one being?

Is God something incomprehensible? God thought out Humanity and let Humanity thought out God? Is God a word that has a meaning, and which may be the meaning, if it's not something to understand. What does it understand? A Higher Power? And, by the way, God is not the only god thought out or believed by humans. Yes, words are here to have some kind of meaning; they are for humans to communicate with each other. God is incomprehensible? What could I say? Humanity is (oh, not again the type of thoughts... I'm going in circles) evloving, understanding things which were not to understand before. Therefore, at some point, humanity shall understand Godlikeness? Deus ex machina? A God Created? What would then be a difference between the Demiurge and one who has become Demiurge?


What is a body? A material shell? Organs, blood, stuff? What does it exist for?
To prove for us that we are (existing)?
To wield our mind?
What does a mind consist of? Protons, neutrons? Is a mind matherial? In that case, can you learn to create a mind? An arificial mind? Huh-oh, nowadays it sounds too much of sci-fi. (BTW, my dad is working in a science university... A few month ago we had some smart chitchat, he mentioned that efforts are positive in creating neuronets - that's actually AI, only at the real point it's smartiness is not really much more than of a cell. And I'm too lazy to go on on that, but anyway.)

Fewww, I'm kinda tired of typing and doing wired-up logic combos. Anyway, here I am^_^!

[HOTpage2004]

All reality is, is a game. It depends on how you play it. You can follow different paths to find out who you are or you could follow someones elses steps and live their life. You have different choices on what you wanna do, you have the choice of good or evil. Everyone has there own game to play, and it depends on how you play it to know if you succeed or not. Everyone is themself to succeed, no one can tell them who they are.

[Solo Tremaine]

[QUOTE=Oceanborn]What is a body? A material shell? Organs, blood, stuff? What does it exist for?
To prove for us that we are (existing)?
To wield our mind?
What does a mind consist of? Protons, neutrons? Is a mind matherial? In that case, can you learn to create a mind? An arificial mind? Huh-oh, nowadays it sounds too much of sci-fi. (BTW, my dad is working in a science university... A few month ago we had some smart chitchat, he mentioned that efforts are positive in creating neuronets - that's actually AI, only at the real point it's smartiness is not really much more than of a cell. And I'm too lazy to go on on that, but anyway.)[/QUOTE][COLOR=#503F86]I tend to get depressed trying to answer these sorts of questions for too long at a time; I don't care what I'm made of- I make my own way of life without trying to question it. To think that I'm only a pile of organs cheapens what I believe really makes a person, which is the mind and soul. There are material parts of the mind (i.e. the brain), everything else is more of a metaphysical combination of all sorts of things.

To try and question my own existance becomes futile after a while as well. On a purely physical point of view, the meaning of anyone's existance is purely to procreate and bring about the next generations so that part of you will continue to survive after you're gone. And from then on in the argument becomes cyclical. Reproducing is done for reproducing's sake, and even with intelligence and society glossing over it, it still serves exactly the same purpose and is still an integral part of everyone's life whether they like it or not.

Surviving in general is still a big part of life. We survive to life, and live to survive in any way we can.

The question I ask most is: Why do we need to know? I know I have goals I want to achieve, but I do it because I have a drive to. What motivates me in that way isn't clear- probably developmental influence combined with genetic tendencies and something deeper within my mind all acting on me at once. But when you look at it like that you forget that life and humanity aren't logical science. If anything, humans are one of the most irrational beings on earth. So trying to give a value or reason to everything about them seems fairly redundant to me, as most of it is driven by innate drives and instincts anyway. I think sometimes humans became too intelligent for their own good.[/COLOR]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE=Oceanborn]And, yeah, I am an atheist (kind of. I'd rather say, I have my own believings, and I stay out of confessions). So here we go a little more^_^. No offense.

... In that case, what is God? Deus? Is God something we truly believe in? Do we believe in ourselves? Are we our own Gods?

Is God somebody(-thing) allmighty and powerful? What is almightiness? The possibility to absolutely create? The Human also can create; while time passes, the Human learns to create better and better. Is God the a final stage of evolution of one being?

Is God something incomprehensible? God thought out Humanity and let Humanity thought out God? Is God a word that has a meaning, and which may be the meaning, if it's not something to understand. What does it understand? A Higher Power? And, by the way, God is not the only god thought out or believed by humans. Yes, words are here to have some kind of meaning; they are for humans to communicate with each other. God is incomprehensible? What could I say? Humanity is (oh, not again the type of thoughts... I'm going in circles) evloving, understanding things which were not to understand before. Therefore, at some point, humanity shall understand Godlikeness? Deus ex machina? A God Created? What would then be a difference between the Demiurge and one who has become Demiurge?


What is a body? A material shell? Organs, blood, stuff? What does it exist for?
To prove for us that we are (existing)?
To wield our mind?
What does a mind consist of? Protons, neutrons? Is a mind matherial? In that case, can you learn to create a mind? An arificial mind? Huh-oh, nowadays it sounds too much of sci-fi. (BTW, my dad is working in a science university... A few month ago we had some smart chitchat, he mentioned that efforts are positive in creating neuronets - that's actually AI, only at the real point it's smartiness is not really much more than of a cell. And I'm too lazy to go on on that, but anyway.)

Fewww, I'm kinda tired of typing and doing wired-up logic combos. Anyway, here I am^_^![/QUOTE]

I'm not going to answer any of this but go on a different note cos quite frankly, just because something sounds clever doesn't make it a good question, nor does it make it good philosophy. "Philosophy" itself means "love of wisdom" in greek. And I'd make quite a distinction between wisdom and the stuff that spews out from a lot of people these days, because our society (more particularly young people) is at the point that we don't [i]really[/i] value wisdom that much, but knowledge and "intellectual-ness".

And that's the only flaw I find in your arguments. You either have a lot of knowledge or you appear to (not so much relatively- knowledge isn't as unique a thing as it used to be), but when it comes down to it you ask the questions out of emptiness. They may sound clever, but to me they positively reek of unfulfilment. By that I mean that even if I were to answer your questions, you wouldn't really gain very much from it. You'd still be in the same place- asking barrages of questions out of a hollowness of spirit.

What I can tell you is fairly simple:

There is no need to bother concerning yourself with the finer details of what reality is. There is very good spiritual teaching which basically says "don't concern yourself with matters higher than yourself, but learn to apply the gospel to your life", i.e. don't go worrying about the finer points of doctrine (did we evolve? when is christ coming? did god really make eve out of adam's rib?) but only really aspire to learn what is useful to know. Because if nothing works outwardly from what you learn, then you are wasting your learning on futile things.

The same principal can apply to the whole question of reality. It's all well and good theorising about what reality really is, but what good really comes of it?

If we are actually living in a real and spiritual world, and are going to an afterlife, then some day we will know about it.

If we are living in some kind of false reality that we will one day awaken from, then again, some day we will know about it.

However, if we are living in a real world, or a false world, or whatever, but we're just products of chemicals and all that we are destined to after death is nothingness, then someday we will know absolutely nothing.

So really, [i]either[/i] we're going to find out eventually, or whatever conclusion we come to, will never really matter because we'll be too dead and nonexistant to know whether we were right or wrong.

So at the end of the day, all intellectual pondering about what reality really is, is completely futile if it is the main focus of our philosophy. On the other hand, you can learn about all sorts of other things which will actually benefit you in your day to day life. You can learn and acquire all sorts of skills, and knowledge which you may need, and you will get a lot further than when you just spend a lot of time thinking about reality.

Even if you end up dead and nonexistent after you die, what you will have actually done with your life will be much more significant if you spent it practically applying things into your life, rather than just sitting there thinking about things which are way over your head. You don't need to be a Christian or religious to see the sense in that; it doesn't matter [i]what[/i] reality is, it's what we make of it that will count at the end of the day, (regardless of whether that is judged by some higher being or not) because everything else will either be revealed or we'll be too dead to know.

(I'd add my personal opinion on stuff and give some disclaimer but once again I've hit the boards pretty late and I need to be off to bed)

[Oceanborn]

[quote name='Dan L']<....the whole long text....>[/quote]
Hmmmm. Well, it's not like I'm asking questions out of nowhere, it's reather like I'm typing my thoughts down^_^. That's the chaotic way the appear in my ill head.
Anyway, I do not really care for all this. I started this post out of nowhere because I was bored and actually had nothing to do. I wanted to add the remark it's usual littlesense philosophical chitchat, but considered not to do it as the post wouldn't look serious at all. Uh-oh. The way you speak I'm beginning to remember Dao. [i]A Completely Wise One doen't really care abot the way of things going on, he lets them flow their way.[/i] Hmm. Well, it's really easy not to care. As long as it's logical that I'm not going to change the way of things (at last typing this down in the forums), I think there is really no much use to somehow care.
(I'd type alot more, as usual, but I'm in a rather non-philosophic mood right now, so it's no use in throwing all these dumb arguments at each other. For crying out loud.) /quit, '11_beeBCK.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I find it silly to discuss pseudointellectual ideas such as the "meaning of life" or "why are we here?" and so forth. We've made just about ZERO progress on those fronts for the last few thousand years, and I don't think things are gonna pick up any time soon.

As far as what "god" is, well humans *appear to* have a strong natural tendency to come up with the idea of a being more powerful than themselves to explain things that they do not understand. Humans, aware of their unique power in the natural world, are likewise aware of their own limitations. And so they can imagine a being without those limitations.

Historically, it's not that difficult to answer what "god" was to most people (from a social perspective). But that's a different topic.

I just want to mention one idea:

If we [i]were not[/i], we would not wonder [i]why[/i] we [i]are[/i].