Anime Hunter X Hunter

[Hevn]

[B][SIZE=1][COLOR=RoyalBlue]Haven't seen any thread about this but if there is its ok for mods to delete this.

Who has seen Hunter X Hunter? I'm currently seeing it now. I just think that the whole "hunter" idea is very original... or is there any anime like it? This really got my interests more than YYH.

I personally love Killua for the great assassin that he is and of course Kurapika coz he's so intelligent and his power is really cool.

I also have a question coz I heard that [spoiler] Hisoka is Gon's father [/spoiler] is this true? anyway just PM me for the answer or reply with a spoiler tag. Also how many episodes are there?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

[Dagger]

If I had to pick the best shounen action series ever made, I would choose either Yu Yu Hakusho or Hunter x Hunter (both of which, incidentally, were created by the ingenious Yoshihiro Togashi). Anyway, I've seen up to episode 25, and I plan on watching the rest of the TV series pretty soon... there are a bunch of OVAs, but those come later.

Hunter x Hunter is just [i]brilliant[/i]. I love this show; in my opinion, it's vastly superior to pretty much every other anime in the genre--including Inuyasha, Rurouni Kenshin, Naruto, Dragonball Z and so forth. Hunter x Hunter's wonderful character development, smoothly animated action sequences and perfect pacing make it an utter joy to watch. I particularly appreciate the fact that tactics and basic intelligence have a greater bearing on the fights' end results than strength or even experience. Hunter x Hunter's shounen-ai undertones are merely a pleasant bonus. ;)

It's difficult for me to choose one character over the rest, since I'm fond of nearly everyone except for Tompa. Gon is too damn cute for words, and Kurapica just radiates coolness (he's a bit like Yu Yu Hakusho's Kurama in that respect). Leorio can be annoying, but usually he's likeable and suprisingly competent. Hisoka fascinates me, and with good reason--Togashi has a real knack for coming up with complicated, unpredictable pseudo-villains.

Killua, however, would probably have to be my favorite. He's adorable, easygoing [i]and[/i] amazingly badass, without the grumpy stubbornness that occasionally makes Hiei difficult to love. Killua's close friendship with Gon is one of those things that compells me to say "Awww..." nearly every three seconds--and I'm usually impervious to anime-style cuteness. His character design rocks, and I find it amusing that a skateboard is his only visible weapon.

*grins* So, does anybody want to talk pairings?

~Dagger~

[adempton]

I had attempted to watch Hunter x Hunter a while ago by recommendation from a friend who told me it had a lot of similarities to Naruto. I watched the first episode or... four. And I wasn't very impressed at first. I don't really know how to describe how I felt. I mean it wasn't [I]bad[/I], but it felt dated. I was vaguely reminded of Dragonball. (Not Z, the first one.) I consider that to be a huge insult to the series so I must stress, "[I]vaguely[/I]." ^^; I saw the initial cuteness, but it just didn't interest me that much early on. Then again, I wasn't really introduced to many of the characters yet... I guess it just starts slowly?

I must admit though Dagger, after reading your thoughts I am almost completely convinced to give it another shot and continue from where I left off. Shounen-ai undertones you say? *ears perk up* I didn't notice too many suggestions (er, any at all?) in the beginning. How suggestive does it get exactly? I'm guessing it isn't as forward as Kyou Kara Maou. (Is it? o.o) Well if it has any shounen-ai undertones at all, it must be more than Naruto since that has close to nothing.

As far as characters go, I've seen Gon, and that guy in the suit. (Sorry I don't know all of the names since I obviously haven't seen much.) As far as character design, Killua (who I've seen in pics and the intro) seems to be among the coolest to me.

~adempton

[Dagger]

Yeah, Hunter x Hunter does start slowly. Wait until you meet Kurapica (he's the blonde in the opening animation) and Killua. The guy in the suit is called Leorio, by the way. Once the four main characters meet, things really get going and I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun just watching them bicker and interact.

In terms of sheer shounen-ai potential, this show is nowhere near the level of Kyou Kara Maou (haha, that would be awesome)... I haven't seen much of Get Backers yet, but I think Hunter x Hunter is somewhat similar to the series in that it's very, [i]very[/i] easy to figure out who would get together with who if it were indeed a shounen-ai anime. After all, Gon x Killua is a total no-brainer. This could also be said of Leorio and Kurapica, only to a slightly lesser extent.

Now, what I want to know is why Hunter x Hunter hasn't yet been licensed. Considering the relative popularity of shounen fighting series and Yu Yu Hakusho's success over here in the States, the lack of an R1 release is sort of surprising.

~Dagger~

[adempton]

Well you've pretty much decided it for me! I'll watch it. ^_^ Thankfully my friend has all of the episodes ready to go. I bet he'll be happy that I've finally decided to give it a watch.

I actually bought a mini mouse pad from Japan off eBay in one of my weird anime merchandise splurges. It looks like [URL=http://i16.ebayimg.com/03/i/01/b1/e1/24_1_b.JPG]this (Click here)[/URL]. It's pretty cute. ^_^ I was getting a little tired from the same old interaction between the Naruto characters anyway, this should be nice for a change of pace. I have a feeling I'm really going to fall in love with Killua.

That reminds me, I think I did watch far enough to see Kurapica very briefly. I don't think he was introduced to Gon, but he pulled off some sort of crazy demon move with his fork. Haha, that gave me quite a bit of respect for his character, actually. I think my initial disappointment was just how long it takes to get the ball rolling. Maybe I'll post some comments to the thread after I see more of the anime. Thanks for all the tips Dagger! ^_^

Good point about the lack of R1 release. I'm surprised 4Kids (ugh!) hasn't gotten their dirty hands on it. Seems like something they'd pounce on. I can totally see Gon with the most hideous English dubbed voice ever. 4Kids: "Hey he's young and cute, anyone know a woman with a really annoying high-pitched voice to dub him?!"

~adempton

[Hevn]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1][B]Well I agree to everything that Dagger said. You'll have to watch at least 10 or so episodes to really be interested in it. As for me, I got interested when I found out the similarities from YYH and more when I found out their creator is one.

I also want to add that I think Kurapica's character is more complicated than Kurama's. The red eye thing just amazes me and the chains... well need I say more. Anybody got confused with HIS gender? I did at first heh.

Get Backers and Hunter x Hunter? I've watched Get Backers and, yeah, it really passes for a shounen-ai anime and it's obvious who gets who.[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Dagger]

[quote name='`hEvN][B][SIZE=1][COLOR=RoyalBlue]I also have a question coz I heard that [spoiler] Hisoka is Gon's father [/spoiler] is this true? anyway just PM me for the answer or reply with a spoiler tag. Also how many episodes are there?[/COLOR][/SIZE'][/B][/quote]

The TV show is 62 episodes long. It's followed by the OVA Series 1 (8 episodes), the OVA Series 2: Greed Island (also 8 episodes), and the OVA Series 3: G I Final (14 episodes).

In any case, I probably haven't seen as much of Hunter x Hunter as you have, but [spoiler]I don't think Hisoka could possibly be Gon's father. He looks nothing like the man in Mito-san's picture. Besides, Gon's father is/was [i]already[/i] a famous Hunter--why, then, would he need to take the Hunter exam again? Hisoka has failed the exam at least once (in the year before he met Gon, Killua, Leorio and Kurapica).[/spoiler] To tell you the truth, I would find a plot twist like that to be more disturbing than surprising or creative. ^_^;;

EDIT: Last night, I marathoned the last eight episodes of the television series, along with the entirety of the first OVA (which is basically a smooth continuation of the events in the show). Hunter x Hunter totally eclipses Yu Yu Hakusho, good as that series is. If you stick with it long enough, it pays off in a big way.

Does Kuroro just disappear after [spoiler]Kurapica binds him with the Chain of Judgment? While I'm definitely satisfied that Kurapica didn't kill him,[/spoiler] I think he's a fantastic character (easily one of my favorites) and was wondering whether he makes an appearance in any of the Greed Island OVAs.

~Dagger~

[Hevn]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1][B]Oh I envy you so much! I wanna watch all of that too but I don't have time as of now go on a marathon!

Obviously I haven't gone as far as the meeting of Kuroro and Kurapica but Kuroro is a very cool character for me too. How I love the cross on his forehead and the way he act so cool and relaxed most of the time. His smile doesn't give me the feeling that he's evil at all.[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Sephiroth]

[FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=DarkRed]I have not watched the anime but I have read a lot of the manga, currently on Volume 16

To be honest though, I find the series to be pretty boring, there are some cool elements and a few interesting characters, but most of the stuff in the series have already been done in other series, and better too

Gon has got to be one of the most boring main characters I have ever seen, though I thought Hisoka and Kurapika were pretty cool

Overall, Hunter X Hunter is at the bottom of my "to read" list of mangas, I'm currently enjoying better titles such as Gantz, One Piece, Hajime No Ippo, Bowling King, and Midori No Hibi[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Dagger]

While I think that Yoshihiro Togashi is an utter genius, I enjoy the anime based on his work much more than the original manga. This applies to Yu Yu Hakusho as well as Hunter x Hunter. I can't speak for the manga, but in the anime Gon is a really fascinating character--the script does an amazing job of subtly portraying his unique charm and showing why everyone from Hisoka to Killua gradually becomes drawn to him. It helps that Hunter x Hunter's voice cast is highly talented, and that its plot is totally devoid of filler. Rather than stretching the television show out in order to generate revenue (something which has happened to virtually every other shounen action anime longer than sixty episodes), the producers chose to continue it as a series of OVAs once they caught up with the manga.

~Dagger~

[Monkey_Orange]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]I just finished watching HxH OVA3 and totally loved it. *^_^*

I'm now wondering when OVA4 will be released ^^;; There are still so many strings left untied.

Compared to YYH, I definitely enjoyed this series more because of the story. Character wise, I'd have to say that my favorite is Gon. Although...Hisoka definitely became more interesting as the story progressed. *^_^* Much better as a red head![/COLOR]

[Dagger]

[QUOTE=Monkey_Orange][COLOR=DarkOrange]I just finished watching HxH OVA3 and totally loved it. *^_^*

I'm now wondering when OVA4 will be released ^^;; There are still so many strings left untied.

Compared to YYH, I definitely enjoyed this series more because of the story. Character wise, I'd have to say that my favorite is Gon. Although...Hisoka definitely became more interesting as the story progressed. *^_^* Much better as a red head![/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Unfortunately the manga isn't very far ahead, so it might be a long time before the next OVA (or, heaven willing, another television series!) is released. I just feel rather lucky that Bleach has come along to help keep me from suffering severe Hunter x Hunter withdrawal pangs.

Yeah--is Hisoka an awesome character or what? I was really surprised by his behavior during the [spoiler]volleyball[/spoiler] match. The villains (and ambiguous semi-villains) in this show are so well developed. I haven't ever been so attached to characters in a shounen fighting anime before: I actually teared up at the very end of G.I. Final, when [spoiler]Kurapica and Leorio[/spoiler] each made a brief appearance.

What did you think of Biske? To my surprise I ended up loving her, both as a great (if sometimes freakishly scary) female character and as a member of Gon's team. She had the potential to be incredibly annoying, yet I very much liked her no-nonsense attitude and SD temper tantrums.

~Dagger~

[Monkey_Orange]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']Unfortunately the manga isn't very far ahead, so it might be a long time before the next OVA (or, heaven willing, another television series!) is released. I just feel rather lucky that Bleach has come along to help keep me from suffering severe Hunter x Hunter withdrawal pangs. [/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]That's sad. I finished watching the series a few days ago, and found myself in total withdraw the following day. It's just not same ^^;; Well, I guess that it'll be more waiting for the both of us. Another TV series? THAT would be awesome! *crosses her fingers* I started watching Bleach a while ago, but I had to stop at episode 2 because my downloading source became non-exisitent. For now, I'm finding comfort in watching One Piece [not the 4Kids version!].[/COLOR]

[quote name='Dagger IX1]Yeah--is Hisoka an awesome character or what? I was really surprised by his behavior during the [spoiler]volleyball[/spoiler'] match. [/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]I admit, Hisoka totally freaked me out in the beginning, and through the majority of the show. I was like 'this guy is SO creepy'...but...there was just 'something' about him that I liked -- in sick way, that is ^^;; But I totally loved him in OVA3. I liked his expression when Gon told him how [spoiler]it was UNLIKE himself when he talked about sharing the victoryl[/spoiler]. He raised a brow and it was great![/COLOR]

[IMG]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/738220/hisoka11.jpg[/IMG]

[quote name='Dagger IX1] The villains (and ambiguous semi-villains) in this show are so well developed. I haven't ever been so attached to characters in a shounen fighting anime before: I actually teared up at the very end of G.I. Final, when [spoiler]Kurapica and Leorio[/spoiler'] each made a brief appearance. [/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Me too! I wanted to see more of those two involved! I remember being a bit surprised as I started watching the second half of the serie. I was a bit surprised to see how [spoiler]the show became darker than it normally was, especially with the emphasis placed on Kurapica's personal mission. At time's I just wanted to give Kurapica a be hug. He shouldn't be going through such things by himself (>_<)[/spoiler].

I also enjoyed getting to actually see what Gon's father was like. I think that THAT's one of the main things I want to learn more about, is Jin. And what about that last clip where [spoiler]Gon may have finally caught up with father[/spoiler]? Geez, talk about a cliffhanger! [/COLOR]

[quote name='Dagger IX1'] What did you think of Biske? To my surprise I ended up loving her, both as a great (if sometimes freakishly scary) female character and as a member of Gon's team. She had the potential to be incredibly annoying, yet I very much liked her no-nonsense attitude and SD temper tantrums. [/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Oh, I loved Bisuke! Initially, I was like 'there is something unusual about this little girl!' And sure enough, there was! Especially when she [spoiler]transformed into her 'true' self[/spoiler]! ^^;; Hilarious. Depsite that, I still think that she looks pretty good for her age ^^;;

Good stuff![/COLOR]

[Dagger]

[QUOTE=Monkey_Orange][COLOR=DarkOrange]I admit, Hisoka totally freaked me out in the beginning, and through the majority of the show. I was like 'this guy is SO creepy'...but...there was just 'something' about him that I liked -- in sick way, that is ^^;; But I totally loved him in OVA3. I liked his expression when Gon told him how [spoiler]it was UNLIKE himself when he talked about sharing the victoryl[/spoiler]. He raised a brow and it was great![/COLOR]

[IMG]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/738220/hisoka11.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

Awesome screenshot! Yeah, that scene was really great--very well timed, and one of the best light-hearted moments in the OVA. The remarkable thing is that I didn't once feel as though Hisoka was acting out of character or even that he had significantly changed. He's always been a pretty creepy guy, heh; for me that's a big part of his appeal. In the beginning of the television series, his creepiness stemmed from the fact that he was so amoral and enigmatic. Toward the end of G.I. Final, his creepiness started to stem more from his rather blatant pedophilic tendencies, as many of his secrets (i.e. being a [spoiler]Genei Ryodan[/spoiler] quasi-member) had already been revealed. ^_^;;

Do you remember the part in which Gon and co. found Hisoka, er, bathing? As they walked down the forest path he started ogling Gon and Killua from behind. It was wholly unexpected and very, very funny.

However, my absolute favorite Hisoka scene took place in the latter half of the TV series, while Gon and Killua were battling in the Celestial Tower. When [spoiler]Gon boldly challenged Hisoka in order to return his number-plate thing, and [i]finally[/i] managed to land a hit on him, I just about jumped out of my seat and started cheering. It was a superbly animated scene--one of the most thrilling, exciting and emotionally satisfying fight sequences I've ever seen.[/spoiler]

[quote][COLOR=DarkOrange]I also enjoyed getting to actually see what Gon's father was like. I think that THAT's one of the main things I want to learn more about, is Jin. And what about that last clip where [spoiler]Gon may have finally caught up with father[/spoiler]? Geez, talk about a cliffhanger! [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

According to manga readers (I personally haven't been following the manga, though) [spoiler]the man sitting behind the tree is actually the hunter Gon met at the very start of the show, the one who claimed to know his father. I can't remember his name, but you know who I'm talking about, right? It's the one with smallish eyes and shoulder-length blond hair.[/spoiler]

I just hope Yoshihiro Togashi recovers from his sickness and starts putting out manga chapters at a faster pace. Maybe then a new OVA or TV series can be released.

~Dagger~

[Monkey_Orange]

[quote name='Dagger IX1'] Do you remember the part in which Gon and co. found Hisoka, er, bathing? As they walked down the forest path he started ogling Gon and Killua from behind. It was wholly unexpected and very, very funny.[/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Yeah, that pretty funny...especially when Gon and Killua cringed after feeling some strange vibes.[/COLOR]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']I just hope Yoshihiro Togashi recovers from his sickness and starts putting out manga chapters at a faster pace. Maybe then a new OVA or TV series can be released. [/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]I had no idea that he was sick. Yes. Let's hope that he get's better soon *^_^* Also, did you know that HxH Manga has been licensed for the US? Keeping that in mind, I think that it won't be too long before the show becomes licensed all together. If it does get licensed, then i just pray that the show doesn't get kiddified! *sighs* I mean, just look at poor Groove Adventure Rave and One Piece! Such sad fates! (>_<)[/COLOR]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']Killua, however, would probably have to be my favorite. He's adorable, easygoing and amazingly badass, without the grumpy stubbornness that occasionally makes Hiei difficult to love. Killua's close friendship with Gon is one of those things that compells me to say "Awww..." nearly every three seconds--and I'm usually impervious to anime-style cuteness. [/quote]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]I know. I thought it was SO sweet when Killua went with Gon back to [spoiler]Whale Island, and how Mita-san treated him like a part of their family! Love and nurture were definitely NOT the type of things he recieved from his up bringing [/spoiler].

What do you think of Kurapica? Seriously, the entire second half of this show had me on edge just because of him. Tough times for him. I thought it was pretty bad-*** how he [spoiler] he mastered the 'chain'[/spoiler].I did NOT enjoy seeing how he was [spoiler]emotionally and physically effected by the survival of Spider[/spoiler]. I seriously dislike Spider. They need [spoiler]to drop dead so the poor kid can continue on with his life[/spoiler]! But THAT wouldn't make the show very interesting, now would it?

Ah well.[/COLOR]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Monkey_Orange][COLOR=DarkOrange']I had no idea that he was sick. Yes. Let's hope that he get's better soon *^_^* Also, did you know that HxH Manga has been licensed for the US? Keeping that in mind, I think that it won't be too long before the show becomes licensed all together. If it does get licensed, then i just pray that the show doesn't get kiddified! *sighs* I mean, just look at poor Groove Adventure Rave and One Piece! Such sad fates! (>_<)[/COLOR][/quote]
Well, at this point I'm much more concerned about the manga. The first volume is supposed to come out sometime in spring 2005. However, I have no idea whether or not the manga is going to run in Viz's version of Shonen Jump--and that really worries me, as Viz has a history of editing Shonen Jump titles (such as Shaman King). If it's released only in graphic novel form, then it'll probably remain untouched. I just hate the fact that older fans of Jump series have to suffer because the American Shonen Jump can't risk raising the ire of viligante parents.

On the plus side, the anime will probably be okay so long as it isn't licensed by Tokyopop or 4Kids (which are, respectively, the companies responsible for Groove Adventure Rave and One Piece). I guess I'd be happy if FUNimation picked it up, since they've done a nice job with Yu Yu Hakusho.

Speaking of the manga--I don't know the details. But, yeah, apparently he's been sick for a while and the chapters have been coming out extremely slowly. The main reason there hasn't been a new TV series is that the manga still isn't very far ahead. It's unfortunate.

[quote][COLOR=DarkOrange]What do you think of Kurapica? Seriously, the entire second half of this show had me on edge just because of him. Tough times for him. I thought it was pretty bad-*** how he [spoiler] he mastered the 'chain'[/spoiler].I did NOT enjoy seeing how he was [spoiler]emotionally and physically effected by the survival of Spider[/spoiler]. I seriously dislike Spider. They need [spoiler]to drop dead so the poor kid can continue on with his life[/spoiler]! But THAT wouldn't make the show very interesting, now would it?

Ah well.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I love Kurapica! He's like the poster boy for angst done right. By the end of the TV series and OVA 1, I was pleasantly surprised that he hadn't turned to the "dark side," so to speak, but that's a powerful testimony to his inner strength. I had almost expected him to pull out all the stops and [spoiler]go after the Spiders no matter what, even to the point of forsaking his friends.[/spoiler] But as it turned out, Kurapica isn't like that. ^_^

~Dagger~

[Tatsubei Yagyu]

[COLOR=Navy][FONT=Comic Sans MS]I see no one's been here for a little less than a year...Well it's up to me to revive it!!!!:animeswea

Just recently, I got into this manga, because yesterday I was at Oni-Con and saw it for cheaper than it would of been at my usual source. I have to say, I'm really impressed by it. I wish I got more than volume 1, because it seems like the action is picking up. Not to say I didn't enjoy the other points of interest...

So far, my favorite part was the two-choice quiz. I would of passed, mostly because I couldn't make any choices like that.

I'd have to say Gon is my favorite, which isn't normal to me because I can't stand liking the main character the most (It's because of Dragonball Z's Son Gokou, I liked him better it Dragonball for some reason...).

I see why Dagger likes it so much, considering how little I read... I can't wait to get volume two....

OH! And for some reason I really like the ninja Hanzo. "Don't tell anybody, but I'm actually a [B][I]Ninja[/I][/B]..." Heh.

Anyone esle pick it up recently or otherwise?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Dagger]

I wish Viz would put out the manga faster. It's definitely a quick read, and if you enjoyed volume 1, you'll love the rest of what's been released so far (unfortunately, they're only up to volume 4).

It'll be interesting to see what you think of Hanzo after volume 4, heh.

To be honest, I actually like the anime better than the manga (similar to my experience with Yu Yu Hakusho), but I'm still enjoying the manga a lot, and it'll be nice to see the manga-only material... whenever Viz gets there...

Anyway, HxH and Yu Yu Hakusho are still neck-and-neck for being my favorite shounen action series. Even Bleach can't quite live up to Togashi. :catgirl:

~Dagger~

[Magus]

[quote name='Dagger' date='24 June 2004 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1088100282' post='437424']
If I had to pick the best shounen action series ever made, I would choose either Yu Yu Hakusho or Hunter x Hunter (both of which, incidentally, were created by the ingenious Yoshihiro Togashi). Anyway, I've seen up to episode 25, and I plan on watching the rest of the TV series pretty soon... there are a bunch of OVAs, but those come later.
[/quote]
And I'd say you were definately on the right track with that one. I'm slightly bias towards Rurouni Kenshin because I just favor samurai's and sword fighting, but if it wasn't for that then yes I'd definately say Hunter x Hunter is the best (only 2nd to Yu Yu Hakusho). I'm on episode 31 and have completely fallen for the series even though it has a very slow start. The very fact that just about every fight is handled like it's one of Kurama's fights just makes this series an entirely different beast in itself. The only other shonen series where there's a lot of thinking is involved is Psyren (This is the best shonen series here. This series needs to hurry up and get animated) and that hasn't been animated. Anyway I've given up on this series once before because, for some reason it just has this old look. I'm into flashy colors these days and with HxH's dull colors it made it hard to get into back then, but I finally saw a couple of fights and I'm completely hooked.

As it's been stated the character interaction is strong. Kurapica and Leorio's relationship reminds me of Hiei and Kuwabara's relationship, but I do find Leorio to be on the annoying side. He means well but sometimes I just wish the guy would shut it. Killua is by far my favorite of the bunch though. You really can't beat a personality like his lol. Gon has that trait I can't stand to see in shonen protagonists (underdog and airheaded), but he has some charm to him that makes him very likable. Kurapica is Kurapica lol. Great character. The only 1 character in this series I can't stand is Tompa and while I know it's mean and evil but I was hoping he'd die or something. Hisoka and Illumi (sp?) are some fascinating villains.

I wish other shonen fans would give this series a chance. I find it to be better than the big 3.. (That's the 4th series I found to be better than the big 3)