Gaming Metroid Prime or Halo?

[Semjaza]

I really didn't play MP to 100%, but it is worth noting that you get a more complete ending if you do. If you have a problem with the difficulty, you should try replaying it in Hard. Of course, if you don't want to replay it anyway, then it doesn't matter much lol.

Halo isn't difficult unless you play it on Legendary, in my opinion. If you can consider that game challenging based on its highest difficulty level, then you should do the same for Prime, as far as I'm concerned.

I am not personally interested in Halo. I've played dozens of FPS games that feel just like this, vehicles, story, enemies. It really brought nothing new to the table unless you really are just stuck with console games... I never considered consoles strong on the FPS front.

I am, however, tired of the idea that somehow having NPCs in any form in a game enhances the story. They rarely say anything of importance in Halo. They do heighten the atmosphere, but that is about it other than a few key, scripted events. This isn't something that is generally feasible in the Metroid universe as it is. Samus goes about things alone. Giving her random soliders to talk to on an non-human foreign planet would not fit the game at all.

However, I don't feel this matters to the storyline. Yes, many of the things Samus scans give you frivilous information. However, it's no more frivilous than the random banter of most of the stuff that occurs in Halo. I mean, no one needs to know about a containment vessel for some substance rupturing, but the fact that it's even included at all gives this game a sense of detail that I don't think many other games have. The Chozo have different terms for things than Samus and even the Space Pirates have. It makes the world seem more tangible, I think.

Plus, that alone entirely ignores the advancements in the story and development of Samus's history that is given in Prime. Between the Chozo Lore and Space Pirates, there's so much discussed. So much said about Samus's suit, upbringing, Phazon, enemies and so forth.

If people don't consider these plot developments, I don't know what to tell them. I think the main problem for people was that they had to search this information out for themselves. MP is only as deep as you want to allow it to be... whereas Halo just stuffs everything in your face. It gives the impression that it's deeper because of this, but I don't personally think it is.

[Brasil]

[size=2][quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Beginning to end is good enough. Getting all the missile upgrades and scanning everything adds just about jack to the gameplay. It's not like sidequests in an RPG or full-blown adventure game like LoZ.[/quote][/size]

[size=2]"Good enough"? Just doing the bare minimum, then?[/size]

[size=2]Talking about LoZ and RPGs, what do you think the sidequests give you? Things to enhance the gameplay, not critical items, which is precisely what Prime's 100% does. You're not required to get every heart piece in WW, but it sure makes the game more challenging, because you're putting in that time and searching out every nook and cranny, as it were. The same goes with RPGs. The 100% of RPGs isn't required, either.[/size]

[size=2]Are you saying that you get everything there is to get in LoZ or FF7, but refuse to do the same in Prime, even when there is relatively no difference at all between the "item completion" subject?[/size]

[size=2][quote]Because I won't get any "sense of accomplishment" from clearing out MP. I saw the cool ending, and that was that. I beat MP, and after that I felt like never playing it again.[/quote][/size]

[size=2]"Cool ending"? That's all it was for you? Just "cool"? You didn't appreciate what the ending meant (apart from a sequel)? There is going to be something hunting Samus. Call it her shadow if you'd like, and touch upon Carl Jung's idea of the psyche and the shadow, where everyone has a dark side to them and must constantly fight that dark side.[/size]

[size=2][QUOTE]Okay, then, play Halo on Legendary and don't pick up any ammo! You can make the game as hard for yourself as you like. I knew someone would say something like this, but I think that making the game more difficult by doing something the character in the game wouldn't (pass up pickups) takes away from the immersion and the feel of any story to the game. At least for me.[/QUOTE] [/size]

[size=2]By that same token, then, would you say that it was your fault you didn't find Prime immersive? After all, it [i]is[/i] in Samus' nature to be thorough, and I think it's safe to say that given her character, she would make sure to acquire anything that may give her an edge in battle. So...are you blaming Prime for not being immersive, when you yourself have just said that if you, the player, don't pick-up every item, then the game loses any immersion factor?[/size]

[size=2][QUOTE]Dude, the game is as easy as I want to say it is.[/quote][/size]

[size=2]Not really, no. You may want to say the sky is red, but that doesn't mean the sky is red. See what I'm saying here?[/size]

[size=2][QUOTE]It's friggin easy as long as you pick up stuff as you find it.[/QUOTE] [/size]

[size=2]Oh, is this the |\/|4|) 94|\/|1|\|9 5|<1||5? Prime isn't a cakewalk. You've mentioned that in your review, remember?[/size]

[size=2][QUOTE]And I never said MP was simplistic.[/QUOTE] [/size]

[size=2]Never said, perhaps, but you most certainly think that, and you confirm it in your reply, lol.[/size]

[size=2][quote]And I don't care what strategy guides instruct.[/quote][/size]

[size=2]Maybe you should start caring, then. It would make you look a lot more mature in discussions, lol.[/size]

[size=2][quote]Most walkthroughs of Xenosaga instruct you do use some stupid character configuration and use particular tech/magic moves to fight bosses, where using gigantor AGWS and just trading damage mindlessly works better almost every time. If the guides tell you to make something harder than it has to be, that's not really something to suggest a game is not as easy as it really it.[/QUOTE] [/size]

[size=2]Do Prime and Xenosaga use the same guide? If they do, then your argument has merit. But I don't recall Prime and Xenosaga even being in the same genre, so your point here is totally invalid, as we are talking specifically about the Prime strategy guide and how it relates to Prime, and not some fantasy/sci-fi RPG.[/size]

[size=2][quote]MP is a deeper game, perhaps. But both are real enough. And what you mentioned just above is not Halo's plot. Maybe you didn't play it "all the way through," heh. Oh, and no matter what anybody says, Metroid Prime's "plot" was 100 times more simplistic than Halo's. It had plenty of little details in terms of how the Space Pirates worked with phazon and engineered elites and discovered Metroid Prime, but that's not really a plot progression.[/QUOTE][/size]

[b][size=2][color=black][QUOTE][/color][/size][color=black][size=2]You are the last of your kind. Bred for combat, built for war, you are the master of any weapon, pilot of any vehicle and fear no enemy.[/b]

[b][b][/size][/color][/b][size=2][color=black]Bent on Humankind's extermination, a powerful fellowship of alien races known as the Covenant is wiping out the Earth's fledgling interstellar empire. You and the other surviving defenders of a devastated colony-world make a desperate attempt to lure the alien fleet away from Earth. Shot down and marooned on the ancient ring-world Halo, you begin a guerilla-war against the Covenant. Fight for humanity against an alien onslaught as you race to uncover the mysteries of Halo.[/QUOTE] [/color][/size][/b]

[font=Tahoma][size=2]I suppose, that synopsis, taken from the [i]official[/i] site means nothing? That's the plot right there in a nutshell, and it's incredibly simple and uninspired. How many FPS a year do we hear with some alien invasion plot?[/size][/font]

[font=Tahoma][size=2]Like Tony has said, Halo doesn't present any new ideas or break any significant ground regarding FPS, because it's all been done before in some form or another. That makes Halo's plot neither deep, nor original, lol.[/size][/font]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=Bean]Talking about LoZ and RPGs, what do you think the sidequests give you? Things to enhance the gameplay, not critical items, which is precisely what Prime's 100% does. You're not required to get every heart piece in WW, but it sure makes the game more challenging, because you're putting in that time and searching out every nook and cranny, as it were. The same goes with RPGs. The 100% of RPGs isn't required, either.

[size=2]Are you saying that you get everything there is to get in LoZ or FF7, but refuse to do the same in Prime, even when there is relatively no difference at all between the "item completion" subject?[/size][/QUOTE]

My whole point was there was a difference. In LoZ and Morrowind and other such games, sidequests will lead you to altogether new areas, give you more people/things to interact with, etc. They are much more developed as "sidequests" than something like getting the odd missile upgrade in MP. Like I said, getting out-of-the-way pickups in MP doesn't add to the gameplay (which is why I stopped doing it after a while), while actual sidequests in RPGs do. That was my point.

[QUOTE][size=2]"Cool ending"? That's all it was for you? Just "cool"? You didn't appreciate what the ending meant (apart from a sequel)? There is going to be something hunting Samus. Call it her shadow if you'd like, and touch upon Carl Jung's idea of the psyche and the shadow, where everyone has a dark side to them and must constantly fight that dark side.[/size][/QUOTE]
Thank you for stating the oh-so-obvious. There's going to be someone hunting Samus? Really? That's what that arm at the end was? Hmm, I guess Dark Samus isn't an alternate costume after all... Sheesh.

[QUOTE][size=2]By that same token, then, would you say that it was your fault you didn't find Prime immersive? After all, it [i]is[/i] in Samus' nature to be thorough, and I think it's safe to say that given her character, she would make sure to acquire anything that may give her an edge in battle. So...are you blaming Prime for not being immersive, when you yourself have just said that if you, the player, don't pick-up every item, then the game loses any immersion factor?[/size][/QUOTE]
Passing up items that are in your path and going back to areas you've been for the sake of getting 5 more missiles are two different things. One is your character discovering something and passing it up (weird) and the other is your character not discovering it. Plus, that character is me. I AM Samus. I don't think "WWSD?"

[QUOTE][size=2]Oh, is this the |\/|4|) 94|\/|1|\|9 5|<1||5? Prime isn't a cakewalk. You've mentioned that in your review, remember?[/size][/QUOTE]
The only thing that was hard was the Omega Pirate. And compared to bosses in other games, he's actually not that hard. The more I think back on MP and the games I've played since, the easier it was in comparison.

[QUOTE][size=2]Maybe you should start caring, then. It would make you look a lot more mature in discussions, lol.[/size][/QUOTE]
Doing everything a players guide tells you is not "mature." It's "lazy" or "thorough," depending on what you're actually using it for, but it's not "mature." If you judge maturity based on how much I take the MP guide to heart, then you need to grow up.

[QUOTE][size=2]Do Prime and Xenosaga use the same guide? If they do, then your argument has merit. But I don't recall Prime and Xenosaga even being in the same genre, so your point here is totally invalid, as we are talking specifically about the Prime strategy guide and how it relates to Prime, and not some fantasy/sci-fi RPG.[/size][/QUOTE]
I said I don't care what guides say when it comes to how to approach a game because they're often not right. Xenosaga was such an example. I've never looked at Nintendo's MP guide because I never needed to.

[QUOTE][font=Tahoma][size=2]I suppose, that synopsis, taken from the [i]official[/i] site means nothing? That's the plot right there in a nutshell, and it's incredibly simple and uninspired. How many FPS a year do we hear with some alien invasion plot?[/size][/font][/QUOTE]
Yeah, that OFFICIAL synopsis is the intro. If you played the game you'd know that. Next time, talk about something you actually are familiar with.

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']My whole point was there was a difference. In LoZ and Morrowind and other such games, sidequests will lead you to altogether new areas, give you more people/things to interact with, etc. They are much more developed as "sidequests" than something like getting the odd missile upgrade in MP.[/quote]
More developed or not, or "less developed," there are still sidequests in Prime. You agree with that, then. Also, the sidequests in Prime [i]do[/i] lead you to "new areas," to interact with more people/things (hell, Prime is all about going to new areas--exploration). Or are you going to say that getting the Ice Spreader doesn't put you into a radically different room? Really, that entire passage's architecture changes significantly--being transformed from the confined tube to a larger cavern.

[quote]Like I said, getting out-of-the-way pickups in MP doesn't add to the gameplay (which is why I stopped doing it after a while), while actual sidequests in RPGs do. That was my point.[/quote]
Ice Spreader certainly changes combat dynamics--[i]gameplay[/i], as do a greater number of Power Bombs. Furthermore, having more Energy Tanks has a significant effect on how you play the game. You have to be extremely careful when you first start the game, as four hits can pretty much kill you. Later in the game, with more Energy Tanks, you have more of a fighting chance, but the enemies become tougher (Omega Pirate, for example), and again, even with 15 Energy Tanks, you must still be careful. Getting "out-of-the-way" pick-ups [i]definitely[/i] have a significant addition to the gameplay.

[QUOTE]Thank you for stating the oh-so-obvious. There's going to be someone hunting Samus? Really? That's what that arm at the end was? Hmm, I guess Dark Samus isn't an alternate costume after all... Sheesh.[/QUOTE]
My point was not that you didn't realize, merely that you refused to appreciate it, and you refuse to appreciate a lot, it seems. The Hunter becomes the Hunted. It's a role reversal. Samus goes from being a force to be reckoned with (Prime) to becoming the prey (Echoes). It's a character duality almost, the workings of light and dark, good and evil, as it were. If you don't see the beauty and artistic quality in that, then you're a fool. No offence.

[QUOTE]Passing up items that are in your path and going back to areas you've been for the sake of getting 5 more missiles are two different things. One is your character discovering something and passing it up (weird) and the other is your character not discovering it. Plus, that character is me. I AM Samus. I don't think "WWSD?"[/QUOTE]
So what's your personality then? Based on what you've said here, you're gung-ho "kill everything, ask questions later," a mentality most associated with Halo--a personality most [i]suited[/i] for Halo. No wonder you can't enjoy Prime, lol. Your attitude and such directly conflict with what Prime is and what Prime sets out to do(exploration/adventure).

I'm just wondering, what kind of completion did you do in Halo?

[QUOTE]The only thing that was hard was the Omega Pirate. And compared to bosses in other games, he's actually not that hard. The more I think back on MP and the games I've played since, the easier it was in comparison.[/QUOTE]
What bosses would you be comparing him to, anyway? Certainly not RPGs, because RPGs are different engines entirely, with entirely different approaches to boss fights. So then...platformers? Platformer bosses are incredibly easy, except for Ninja Gaiden. OH! So is [i]that[/i] what you're comparing Prime's bosses to?! Oh, well then, I can see how Prime is cakewalk. But then again...compare any game's bosses to those in Ninja Gaiden and they'll seem unbelievably easy...*shrugs* Oh well, Sciros.

[QUOTE]Doing everything a players guide tells you is not "mature." It's "lazy" or "thorough," depending on what you're actually using it for, but it's not "mature." If you judge maturity based on how much I take the MP guide to heart, then you need to grow up.[/QUOTE]
Do you think "caring" means doing everything they tell you? No. "Caring" means at least respecting the guides enough to see merit in what they say. You don't have to agree with their strategies, or follow them, but when you say, "And I don't care what strategy guides instruct," what kind of message is that giving? It's showing someone who wants to live in a vacuum. It shows someone who wants to believe what they want to believe and nothing else, to not even consider an informed outside opinion. The strategy guides are not useless, not at all.

[QUOTE]I said I don't care what guides say when it comes to how to approach a game because they're often not right. Xenosaga was such an example. I've never looked at Nintendo's MP guide because I never needed to.[/QUOTE]
You had mentioned something about mindless damage trading before. Just because brute force works in Xenosaga, does that mean finesse doesn't work? Further speaking about brute force...Halo is all about brute force, isn't it? As I recall, Prime is about finesse. Hmmm...I wonder why you're so fanatically against using finesse, and more interested in using mindless brute force. Do you love Halo that much? Because, really, it is just your average shooter, with some pretty technical features thrown in.

[quote]Yeah, that OFFICIAL synopsis is the intro. If you played the game you'd know that. Next time, talk about something you actually are familiar with.[/QUOTE]
I am familiar with Halo, actually, and if you will read one of my previous replies here, you will see that I did in fact paraphrase the plot long before I even checked the official site. Furthermore, because the plot to Halo is so obvious, I knew what the plot was even with [i]skipping[/i] the introduction to the game itself. It's just common sense, really, to see what the conflict and motivation is in Halo.

If you'd like, do tell at-length, what Halo's plot is, including all plot twists, etc, and we'll see for ourselves if it's anything noteworthy.

[lonewolf228]

Hmm, Halo's story let me Give that to you:

1. you ran around in a giant donut weapon.

Yep, thats pretty much all of it.(Well theres some minor crap trown in but it really does not matter, hell,I dont think its even supposed to have sequel, Whats next? "Ohh, you mean where gonna fight more?!"That is so stupid, Halo could have been better I mean they should have shown you who the creators of halo where and stuff,)

Metroid's story.

1. you land on a planet read stuff, then kill stuff then collect stuff YAY! But, Why is it so damn good? Hmm, Lets look at FF shall we?
Have you ever noticed that the game has the same currency,monsters,and items?
Then why is it good? Well, Oh yeah, The story maybe thats what keeps it from being a repetive turn-based borefest.

Same whit metroid the story saves it.(Mostly anyways.......)

[James]

[QUOTE=lonewolf228]
Same whit metroid the story saves it.(Mostly anyways.......)[/QUOTE]
[color=#707875]The story is what saves it? o_O;

Metroid Prime is the first game on GameCube to truly make me say "wow" out loud. That is how much of an impact this game has had in general, I think.

Whether you're talking about the amazing control system, or the insanely cool levels, or the beautifully intricate aesthetic details...everything about Metroid Prime is dripping with quality.

If you can't appreciate the artistry in the game, that's fine. And sure, the story is definitely a major part of it. But Metroid is (and has always been) about exploration and isolation...it's always been about giving you a sense of wonder as you explore alien worlds. It's a very unique game. All you have to do is go back and read the reviews of the game when it was released, to get a sense of how massive MP's impact was in the industry.

So yeah, even without a story at all, Metroid Prime is all about good old-fashioned quality gameplay. I'm not sure if you were implying otherwise, but yeah...I'm not sure if the comparison to Final Fantasy is accurate. Metroid Prime definitely wouldn't be repetitive or boring without story. I mean, it's boring if you don't appreciate the extreme detail and love that went into it...but I guess that possibly relates back to what you said anyway. Who knows.[/color]

[Semjaza]

The things James is referring to also brings up something I mentioned earlier. It's not so much the story that I feel people have a problem with, it's the method in which it's told. This is really proven to me by the comparisons of FF style text boxes to MP's scanning. In a generation where games are getting more and more movie-like, any step away from this is frowned down upon by a large segment of the people.

However, does having to take time away from the action to read these things really detract from the story? No. You may not like the manner in which it is approached, but that isn't a fault of the story. It's the fault of a mechanic that you personally don't like. I liked the scanning, although I think it could have been a bit faster (from what I've seen it's much faster and visually appealing in MP2, which is great news).

I also have to really agree with a point Beans made about how people approach MP. If you're going into this game expecting it to play like a kill-everything-in-sight style FPS simply because it's first person and you have a gun, you're just not going to enjoy this game. That isn't Metroid Prime because that isn't [i]Metroid[/i], period.

Considering the adversity that Retro had going into this project and all the press against them, what they managed to accomplish with this, their first game as a unit, is nothing short of amazing. Metroid was, and still is, my favorite Nintendo-made franchise. The fact that they were able to do the series justice despite the massive change in approach this game took is really commendable.

[Desbreko]

[color=indigo]Personally, I really loved the scanning. I liked how you got the story in pieces, and that you didn't always get those pieces in order. It made me actually have to think about things in order to fully get what was going on.

That, and having the two sides of the story -- both the Chozo Lore and the Pirate data -- was interesting. On one hand, there were the old Chozo writings that talked about the "Great Poison," the "Great Worm," and a "Defender." Then on the other, there's Pirate data, which talks about the effects of Phazon in their tests, various things about the Chozo Artifacts and their attempt to break the Cradle's seal on the impact crater, etc.

Another thing I liked about the scanning is that it really added to the atmosphere of the game in certain places. Like one time in the Phazon Mines, I scanned this computer and learned that the Space Pirates had developed and implemented a big plasma cannon for their troops. Now, at that point I had only been fighting Space Pirates that, other than requiring a certain beam to be used on them, were normal. But then I started to wonder, "When am I going to see these big, nasty, plasma cannon wielding ones?" and I started to get more cautious, proceeding through areas with an air of apprehension and nervousness. Heck, I'll admit it, Metroid Prime made me jump pretty good on a few occasions.

Not having ever played Halo, though, I can't really say which game I liked more. But I can say that I thought Metroid Prime was an amazing game that was highly entertaining all the way through, and from what I've heard of Halo, I doubt I'd have nearly as much fun with it. FPS type games aren't really my thing, but Metroid Prime really hit home for me. It wasn't so much just, "blast all the baddies while getting from point A to point B and maybe do some other crap on the way," but it put a lot of focus on exploration and discovery of new things, both in terms of upgrades and pieces of the story. That's what I enjoyed most about Metroid Prime, and that's something I've never seen offered in any other FPS.

Really, if I play standard FPS games, it's only for multiplayer -- FPS single player modes have never interested me. And if I really wanted that, I'd get Counter-Strike or Unreal Tournament or something and play online. No messing about with linking systems, no X-Box Live fee (in the case of Halo 2 anyway), and I'd be able to use a keyboard and mouse, which I find to be far superior to any controller out there for FPS movement and aiming.[/color]

[Shinmaru]

[quote name='Desbreko][color=indigo']Really, if I play standard FPS games, it's only for multiplayer -- FPS single player modes have never interested me. And if I really wanted that, I'd get Counter-Strike or Unreal Tournament or something and play online. No messing about with linking systems, no X-Box Live fee (in the case of Halo 2 anyway), and I'd be able to use a keyboard and mouse, which I find to be far superior to any controller out there for FPS movement and aiming.[/color][/quote]

I just wanted to throw out another opinion...I honestly think that Halo's multiplayer is boring, at least to the extent that I'm able to play it. I only have one XBox available, so the most I've been able to play is four player modes, but Halo's multiplayer levels aren't really suited for such a small number of players (compare that to something like Goldeneye 007, whose levels were ideal for four players). What's really baffling about it is that bots weren't included as an option. When a game like Perfect Dark, which came a couple of years or so before Halo, has superior multiplayer options and levels, then something is definitely wrong.

Like Sciros, I think that if anything is the draw to Halo, it's the one-player mode (even though I enjoyed MP's one-player mode more) and its co-op mode. The co-op mode, in particular, is pretty fun. In a way, you can think of it as what multiplayer Halo could've been like if Bungie had included bots as an option (if someone has an official reason as to why Bungie didn't put bots in Halo, then I'd really like to know, heh).

[Brasil]

[quote name='Desbreko][color=indigo']That, and having the two sides of the story -- both the Chozo Lore and the Pirate data -- was interesting. On one hand, there were the old Chozo writings that talked about the "Great Poison," the "Great Worm," and a "Defender." Then on the other, there's Pirate data, which talks about the effects of Phazon in their tests, various things about the Chozo Artifacts and their attempt to break the Cradle's seal on the impact crater, etc.[/color][/quote]I think Desi makes some good points here.

When you play through Prime, you begin to see a rather nice juxtaposition of both character design and character element. What I mean by that is, on one hand, you have the Chozo, which are in essence, mystical, spiritual ancestors of the planet, concerned with the good health of Tallon IV. They're a lot like the Cetra in that regard, I think, and very organic. Their writings themselves also illustrate this, what with the Chozo Lores being embedded in the walls as something like a scripture.

Compare this to Pirate Data, which is found in very technological settings (research and development labs, containment areas, etc). Some of the topics are developing Morph Balls for their soldiers, and the results are quite hilarious. Others, like the Cradle's seal as Desi mentioned, serve to illustrate their intrusion/violation of the natural world of Tallon IV and the Chozo.

I think another important point to consider are the Chozo Ghosts, when talking about the Chozo-organic and Pirate-violators.

The Chozo Ghosts are essentially restless spirits. They attack Samus, and without the proper equipment, can be quite troublesome. Now, I haven't thought about it until Desi raised that point, but we always see the Chozo Ghosts attack, and subsequently, we fight back, but I've never considered [i]why[/i] they attack. And based on what we've discussed here, I think they attack because they see no distinction between Samus and the Space Pirates. They view Samus as an intruder, it seems. It's interesting.

EDIT: *sees Desi's reply* Thanks for the clarification, Des. I thought it was something like that, but I couldn't remember the specifics for the life of me, heh.

[Desbreko]

[quote name='Bean]The Chozo Ghosts are essentially restless spirits. They attack Samus, and without the proper equipment, can be quite troublesome. Now, I haven't thought about it until Desi raised that point, but we always see the Chozo Ghosts attack, and subsequently, we fight back, but I've never considered [i]why[/i'] they attack. And based on what we've discussed here, I think they attack because they see no distinction between Samus and the Space Pirates. They view Samus as an intruder, it seems. It's interesting.[/quote]
[color=indigo]Actually, it explains in the game why the Chozo Ghosts attack you. (I think when you scan one it gives you the info). They were driven insane and eventually killed by the effects of the Phazon, causing their spirits to stay on Tallon IV and haunt the various sacred areas on Tallon IV, attacking anything that entered the area. So yes, I suppose they can't really tell the difference, but it's because of the Phazon insanity that they were still around and why they attacked anything at all.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=Shinmaru]I just wanted to throw out another opinion...I honestly think that Halo's multiplayer is boring, at least to the extent that I'm able to play it. I only have one XBox available, so the most I've been able to play is four player modes, but Halo's multiplayer levels aren't really suited for such a small number of players (compare that to something like Goldeneye 007, whose levels were ideal for four players). What's really baffling about it is that bots weren't included as an option. When a game like Perfect Dark, which came a couple of years or so before Halo, has superior multiplayer options and levels, then something is definitely wrong.

Like Sciros, I think that if anything is the draw to Halo, it's the one-player mode (even though I enjoyed MP's one-player mode more) and its co-op mode. The co-op mode, in particular, is pretty fun. In a way, you can think of it as what multiplayer Halo could've been like if Bungie had included bots as an option (if someone has an official reason as to why Bungie didn't put bots in Halo, then I'd really like to know, heh).[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I can barely stand Halo's multiplayer. And it's not only the problem that playing it with 2-4 people is painful, it's that there's just about zero customizeability. Everyone is "master chief" and the only way you can differentiate yourself from the other players is by your armor's hue. Sweetness. Heh, and in Halo 2, you can add "emblems" to designate clans and so forth. Whooptee-frickin-doo. I'm glad they're gonna add Covenant elites as playable characters, but, well, it's still a far cry from Jedi Knight II where I played as Link from Legend of Zelda (hehehe, ok, so maybe that's too much to ask for, especially since Link was an added mod, but still...).

And the no bots thing, well the official reason Bungie gave is "we're retarded and we deserve to die." But it seems that they'd rather die than add bots. I don't understand it either.

Heh, I played through the last three levels of co-op in Halo with a friend last night (took all night, heh, but it was hilarious). I like the entertainment value I get out of playing co-op in it--yesterday, I got a sticky grenade thrown right onto my armor 8 times in a row by a bunch of elites. I went crazy, and Fade was laughing his arse off. There's just a lot of funny moments when you're playing that game. That's why I like it so much.

One thing for sure that MP has over Halo, though, is bosses. I'd love to see some cool Halo bosses (an super Hunter or something, or a teleporting gigantic Zealot-type-Elite with dual plasma swords). Something really cool and hardcore. My favorite part of MP was fighting the elite pirates and omega pirate because they were actually cool and tough. Eh, all of MP's bosses are pretty neat, actually. Metroid Prime reminded me of Mizar from Jet Force Gemini, if anyone remembers that sweet game.

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']And the no bots thing, well the official reason Bungie gave is "we're retarded and we deserve to die." But it seems that they'd rather die than add bots. I don't understand it either.[/quote]This is a bit off-topic, but must you always use that word? That word being "retarded?" You use it [i]a lot[/i] to describe an imperfection, and it really doesn't make you sound at all intelligent when you use it. You know, I can stand you being a total -ss other times, but christ man, have some common sense! Political correctness isn't something I live by too much, either, but calling someone "retarded" simply because they didn't include bots in a multiplayer is utterly disrespectful and contemptible.

Maybe it's just the time of night, and that's why I'm getting on your case about it, but somehow, I don't think that's the reason. Sciros, give me and all of us, and most importantly, the truly mentally challenged people in society today, some frigging respect and cut that "because we're retarded and we deserve to die" sh-t out. Okay?

Thanks.

And just a quick note here, if you decide to reply to this and defend yourself by saying you were joking, that doesn't make it any better, and it still gives you absolutely no excuse [i]at all[/i] to say things like that.

EDIT: Now, to make this on-topic, we've been discussing Prime's role in the First Person genre, and how many people go into it expecting to "kill everything with your big gun" because, like Tony has said, they're in First-Person Perspective and they have a gun. Seems to me, that if people hate Prime's controls, it's because they went into Prime looking for FPS, when clearly, based on Prime itself and the Metroid series in general, the focus was never on FPS like GoldenEye or Halo.

Like James and Tony have mentioned, Metroid was [i]always[/i] about isolation/exploration, with a bit of combat on the side. This is quite unlike Halo, which is pure, mindless explosions, essentially.

And because Metroid was never the same style gameplay of Halo or GE, and considering that Samus was never anything like what Master Chief is, why should anyone expect the "conventional" FPS control set-up in a First Person Metroid game? Samus isn't Master Chief, nor is she James Bond, so why would she control like them?

[Desbreko]

[color=indigo]Yeah, that is a bit off topic, and something that would be more appropriate as a PM. Try and restrain yourself long enough to remember that next time, eh Bean? And also, if Sciros wants to reply to that post, it should be done through PM. Personal discussions between two members -- such as this -- are exactly what PMs are for.[/color]

[Semjaza]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']One thing for sure that MP has over Halo, though, is bosses. I'd love to see some cool Halo bosses (an super Hunter or something, or a teleporting gigantic Zealot-type-Elite with dual plasma swords). Something really cool and hardcore. My favorite part of MP was fighting the elite pirates and omega pirate because they were actually cool and tough. Eh, all of MP's bosses are pretty neat, actually. Metroid Prime reminded me of Mizar from Jet Force Gemini, if anyone remembers that sweet game.[/quote]


I have to agree with this. I thought a lot of the alien designs in Halo were very good (other than the freaking voices from those little guys). There's so much they could do in terms of massive, freakish bosses, but little was ever done about it. I would like more general alien variety as well.

These are probably addressed in Halo 2 in some way. I wouldn't know at this point heh.

Anyway, in terms of the co-op, I have to say that was really the only way I personally enjoyed Halo. The multiplayer is rather subpar for a FPS game of its type. The single player was just not exciting for me, especially given the repitition of many of the area designs.

However, while these things are still somewhat of an issue in co-op, they're completely drowned out because of how much more enjoyable the game is with another player. Especially because of how much you have to rely on the other player in terms of respawn points. That mode alone is what makes Halo a good game, in my opinion.

[BlueYoshi]

[color=teal]Yeah, but bosses don't really emphasise on what the true nature of the game is. They can be used to mark the end of a level, or just to add a bit more of a challenge, but they don't dwell on how the game should be played.

MP is all about exploring, boss battles compliment that because in order to get to them, you will need to have accomplished a certain chain of events or puzzles, something that Halo doesn't have. Bosses also have a role of some sort in games these days, so they'd be better off accommodating the cause of the story line. Also, to top on that even further, MP allowed you to scan bosses, and seeing as they tend to be rather unique, it puts pressure on you to make sure you scan it so as you can get that 100% completion, something I believe Halo can't match as it stands.

In Halo, I think a boss battle theme would generally butcher its title as an action based FPS. Boss battles are supposed to be tense, and only in a certain manner can they be pulled off effectively. One on one action won't really help Halo's reputation, and frankly speaking, even if stipulations were added, like in those situations where the boss's little minions come out to annoy you further, it wouldn't save its prestige because that's just a challenge, and doesn't really rule out the action element at all.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

BlueYoshi, almost all of your posts are very reasonable, but the above one I must say is just nonsense. Bosses add a very important element to any game: they're the main villain, the final obstacle before the goal. They are what your character is here to fight, part of the reason he is where he is. And they are often the coolest part of any level. In the Turok games, which suffer from the same level-design problem as Halo (only to a greater extent), the cool bosses are yet another reason to play the single-player. They are a very worthwhile addition. And Jet Force Gemini is actually the perfect example of an action-based (well, third-person-shooter) game where the bosses were all action (i.e. not just "tense") and were a great element of the game.

Granted, you can't just throw bosses into the Halo story as it now stands. But if there were a Covenant General or other commanders that were leading forces to take over the Pillar of Autumn and you ran into him/them at the end, or if Halo had neutral creatures and you ran into some Flood-infected Cave Wurm, well you see where I'm going here.

Bosses take NOTHING away from the action because boss fights are often the most action-packed part of the game. And in co-op (the only real way to play Halo mission mode), fighting bosses would be very exciting because you could actually employ 2-on-1 strategies.

Fighting Hunters and Covenant tanks is the coolest thing in Halo co-op, from my experience. I don't see how bosses won't just provide a comparable but better one.

[James]

[color=#707875]I think what BlueYoshi is saying is that the core of the Metroid experience relates to exploration and story, as opposed to boss fights. Although, it's true to say that bosses have always been a significant ingredient in the Metroid games.

So, in that sense, I think you can draw that comparison between MP and Halo -- if only to demonstrate that they are totally different games. But again, it's very hard to compare games that really are on opposite ends of the video game spectrum.[/color]

[BlueYoshi]

EDIT: Damn. Had to delete the post for a moment, which messed up the order of mine and James' posts, lol.

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']BlueYoshi, almost all of your posts are very reasonable, but the above one I must say is just nonsense. Bosses add a very important element to any game: they're the main villain, the final obstacle before the goal. They are what your character is here to fight, part of the reason he is where he is. And they are often the coolest part of any level. In the Turok games, which suffer from the same level-design problem as Halo (only to a greater extent), the cool bosses are yet another reason to play the single-player.[/quote]

[color=teal]Bosses will only be the reason for your character being there in the first place when the story line is a big deal, and as we all know, that's not what Halo's main concern is. A lot of games use storylines to front its synopsis because it obviously wouldn't make sense if you were fighting hordes of aliens for no reason.

MP's story, and the structure of it, let bosses divulge into it smoothly in such a way that it justifies the reasons for you having done all that backtracking and all those puzzles. Bosses won't rectify games like Halo because they don't really fit in with the overall cause of it.

You'll find that all RPGs have boss fights, and they're there for two reasons; one being to make sure you're still in tact with your skills, and the other being to praise the story. It would be no fun if the main bad guy died at the hands of someone else because you wouldn't be as absorbed as you would had you done that yourself. Boss fights are a statement really; they can be expressed in many different ways.[/color]

[quote]Bosses take NOTHING away from the action because boss fights are often the most action-packed part of the game. And in co-op (the only real way to play Halo mission mode), fighting bosses would be very exciting because you could actually employ 2-on-1 strategies.[/quote]

[color=teal]They don't directly take anything away, but it has an impact on the players feelings towards the game in general. Have you ever played R-Type? That's a basic game that has basic controls and whatnot, but the in-game quality of the action is priceless. I found that the game slowed down a hell of a lot when it reached the boss stage, in fact, I think the same can be said for Lylat Wars -- they are different genres, and are in different formats, but it's the same message.[/color]

[Semjaza]

I don't know about that because, really, bosses can be stuck into anything pretty much effortlessly. Sure, they're more instrinsic to the set-up of MP, but there's reallly no logical reason why there couldn't be some larger, boss aliens.

Boss, to me, doesn't necessarily have to mean the guy in charge. Boss has come to mean pretty much any large scale fight beyond the normal stuff you do. Halo could have these easily... like let's say the smaller guys let out some massive alien from containment in a last ditch effort to dispose of Master Chief or whatever else. That's still a "boss' by game standards and it fits just fine.

I think Halo would benefit from such things more than be hurt.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='BlueYoshi][color=teal']Bosses will only be the reason for your character being there in the first place when the story line is a big deal, and as we all know, that's not what Halo's main concern is. A lot of games use storylines to front its synopsis because it obviously wouldn't make sense if you were fighting hordes of aliens for no reason.[/color][/quote]
Halo's story is no less of a concern than MP's story is, regardless of how much more anyone might like MP over Halo (or vice versa). It wouldn't have been wrong to work bosses into Halo's story, and it would have been very possible with just a few tweaks. Maybe the Monitor could've been something more than just a tennis ball, or maybe it could have had a very powerful machine enforcer to send at you once it turned on you. Regardless of what people may think ("big guy shoots lots of aliens non-stop"), Halo does have a story with an actual flow to it, and it's easy to add in great reasons for bosses (well, better than that out-of-nowhere Rock Golem in MP, heh).

[QUOTE][color=teal]MP's story, and the structure of it, let bosses divulge into it smoothly in such a way that it justifies the reasons for you having done all that backtracking and all those puzzles. Bosses won't rectify games like Halo because they don't really fit in with the overall cause of it.[/color] [/QUOTE]
Again, that weird conception of Halo's "cause" being linear run-and-shoot to the extent that it... what, doesn't deserve bosses? The last few levels of Halo involve some serious backtracking (which isn't a good thing in my opinion, and I disliked MP for a lot of backtracking also, because most of the time it didn't add anything or change my way of going through the same levels, but that's off-topic), and giving an excuse for the backtracking by forcing you to be fleeing from some insanely powerful boss the whole time, only to later be backed against a wall and forced to use the tens of rockets you find near that wall (hypothetical; I'm just trying to make the point that Halo could very well have had bosses and only gotten better for it, without losing any of its "feel") to finally take him out would really have made the backtracking feel less bothersome.

The truth is, Halo is one of the few action FPSs without any boss battles. Instead, the final level is driving a Warthog through treacherous terrain within a time limit. It sucks a--. It could USE a boss fight or two, really. And there were actually several opportunities where there could've been one, but they weren't taken much advantage of (Hunters played the role of bosses in the game if you think about it, but they weren't tough enough compared to other enemies is the problem). Many people, including myself, got bored with the "intense parts" of the levels always being nothing more than an onslaught of Flood.

[QUOTE][color=teal]They don't directly take anything away, but it has an impact on the players feelings towards the game in general. Have you ever played R-Type? That's a basic game that has basic controls and whatnot, but the in-game quality of the action is priceless. I found that the game slowed down a hell of a lot when it reached the boss stage, in fact, I think the same can be said for Lylat Wars -- they are different genres, and are in different formats, but it's the same message.[/color][/QUOTE]
Well that only means the two games you mentioned did a poor job of integrating boss fights. Some games do it well, others don't. Just because R-Type and Lylat Wars did it improperly is no reason for something like Halo to not go for it.

EDIT: Oh, and James, I think it's silly to say that MP and Halo are on opposite ends of the video game spectrum. They're not. MP and DOA: Extreme Beach Volleyball -- there's opposite sides of the spectrum for ya. Or Halo and Pikmin. But Halo and MP are both higly respected (and considered by many to be overrated) representatives or their consoles, and while you can't compare them element-by-element, you can certainly compare them for polish, general visual appeal, immersion, etc. Things that both games strive for. And you can also compare controls, even though many people think it's some sacrilege to even consider giving a "non-FPS" FPS like Metroid Prime the option of a conventional FPS control setup. As if it's the control scheme is "Metroid through-and-through," heh. Would people have bitched if MP had the option of a normal FPS control scheme to begin with? I highly doubt it.

[Charles]

I'm not fond of either title, if I'm being honest.

When I'm comparing Halo and Metroid Prime, the immediate similarity I pull from between them, is that they're both impressive starts to potentially great franchises (I merely say this of Metroid because ushering a two dimensional franchise into three dimensions is a critical reinvention, a new beginning of sorts). Both games operate on solid engines; they've laid a great foundation for what's to come. And, they've helped establish their respective platforms. Their sequels will push a lot of units this holiday season, I think.

[b]However[/b], both titles are flawed.

I don't think I need to remind anyone of Halo's limitations; they're completely obvious. There's an overall lack of innovation as far as gameplay goes. It would almost be more fitting to compare Halo to Doom; it's the logical evolution of that concept. The enemies are somewhat more intelligent, the worlds are truly three dimensional and vehicles are introduced. I call Halo, Doom with technology.

Often times, I would become frustrated with the repetitive nature of the whole thing--fighting scores of the same enemies in recycled architecture. Co-operative play opened up a whole new dimension, and is what gave the game any legs whatsoever. When it comes to pure enjoyment, I probably enjoyed co-operative Halo more than I did Metroid Prime.

Deathmatch wasn't good for me, mainly because of the aforementioned reasons. The environments were just too large. Shinmaru asked why there weren't bots--and I think that's because the game was originally intended to be online to begin with. It's something they were toying with for quite a while, so when the time came to make the decision to drop the feature, there just wasn't enough time to add bots.

Regardless, it's ironic that, despite my enjoyment with co-op, I believe that Metroid Prime is the better overall product. There's just more of everything. More enemies. More substance. More locales. More challenge. More abilities. More game. It was built from the ground up for consoles with genius supervision and it showed to large degree. The experience was as immersive as Halo's, just in a different way. The atmosphere was more subdued and you really felt like you were peering out from behind Samus's visor because of the neat effects they applied to the presentation. Also, there were tremendous boss battles that were scaled perfectly and well implemented puzzle elements.

So, what didn't I like about it?

It's hard to say; I just wasn't very impressed when it came to entertainment value. After so many hours, the game just begins to drag. I've had long discussions with Tony about it, some on Group Sounds--I just didn't like the way the narrative was handled. Plus, I felt as if the game was taking place underwater. If there's one thing Samus lost in her transition to 3-D, it was her nimble acrobatics. I just felt as if I was plodding along, as this big, heavy emotionless tank. It was easy to control, but it just felt clumsy. It wasn't how Samus was supposed to feel.

Metroid Prime will no doubt remedy my problems with her movement judging by the new abilities it will offer, but I'd still like to see more personality injected into her character. Even if you just hear her breathing heavily more often, or her teeth chattering when she gets blasted by an ice enemy.

Also, there should be transmissions of some sort. Something needs to happen with the presentation.

You guys should compare better games instead of touting this as some important comparison. These are only two "okay" titles we're talking about here. Games like Viewtiful Joe owned Halo as an action game, and games like Wind Waker owned Metroid as an action game. Deal with that.

When it comes to this comparison--"whoever wins--we lose."

[Semjaza]

[QUOTE=Charles]You guys should compare better games instead of touting this as some important comparison. These are only two "okay" titles we're talking about here. Games like Viewtiful Joe owned Halo as an action game, and games like Wind Waker owned Metroid as an action game. Deal with that.

When it comes to this comparison--"whoever wins--we lose."[/QUOTE]

This is possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read from you lol.

To not really enjoy either game is one thing. MP isn't your thing and I've realized that about twenty times over.

Wind Waker is good and I enjoyed it. Especially the somewhat new angles on the story and the humanization of previously statuesque characters.

However, to call those titles flawed and then bring up a game with basically unchanged gameplay, a shortage of dungeons, incredibly easy battles and the freaking Triforce hunt as "owning" them is lame. Especially complaints about movement compared to a game that literally has you sailing in one direction for ten minutes or more at times.

That game is easily just as flawed. A matter of preference as debatable as that is definitely not something that can be presented as a matter of fact as you did just there.

To complain about the characterization of Samus and 1.) never apparently even finishing half the game and 2.) apparently never reading a good portion of the information the game does give you (you seemed entirely unaware of even the most basic things I've told you about that the game speaks of in logs and lore) seem really odd to me. I'm definitely not saying that there's some sort of massive scene in the game where we're amazed by the deepness that is Samus's plight, but there's definitely more to it than you're wanting to see.

However, knowing you, I wouldn't be surprised if you worded a lot of that in a way to just get people riled up lol.

[Shinmaru]

[quote name='Charles'] Deathmatch wasn't good for me, mainly because of the aforementioned reasons. The environments were just too large. Shinmaru asked why there weren't bots--and I think that's because the game was originally intended to be online to begin with. It's something they were toying with for quite a while, so when the time came to make the decision to drop the feature, there just wasn't enough time to add bots.[/quote]

This is actually a good point, and one that I obviously did not think of earlier. If I remember right, much like the Dreamcast, the XBox was slated to be online-ready from the start, so it makes sense to say that Bungie crafted the levels for online play. And, obviously, it wasn't a smart move by Bungie to put all their eggs in one basket, so to speak, when it came to online play, because it wasn't ready when the XBox was.

[Charles]

[QUOTE=Semjaza Azazel]This is possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read from you lol.

To not really enjoy either game is one thing. MP isn't your thing and I've realized that about twenty times over.

Wind Waker is good and I enjoyed it. Especially the somewhat new angles on the story and the humanization of previously statuesque characters.

However, to call those titles flawed and then bring up a game with basically unchanged gameplay, a shortage of dungeons, incredibly easy battles and the freaking Triforce hunt as "owning" them is lame. That game is easily just as flawed. A matter of preference as debatable as that is definitely not something that can be presented as a matter of fact as that.[/QUOTE]
Make no mistake about it, I know Wind Waker is flawed. I've probably complained more about it than anyone. But, I thought it brought more exciting, adventurous elements to the table than Metroid did. Playing as a small child, traveling across the vast ocean to obscure lands was a fun concept for me. Those portions of the game were tediously long at first, but they brought with them a sense of anticipation and wonderment I appreciated. Plus, while the gameplay remained fundamentally unchanged, I remained pleased with how creative the dungeons were and how they encouraged the gamer to utilize their repertoire of abilities to their fullest.

Also, it had excessive amounts of pure character, something I felt Metroid lacked. Even Link's surroundings had it in spades. [spoiler]There was nothing quite like finding Hyrule castle frozen in time.[/spoiler] It was just surreal.

It's this combination of winning elements that makes it the better adventure game.