Casual/Strict Toplessness

[Pawn114]

All right, before I ask my question, may I say a few things?

1.) Please, serious answers, I am well aware OtakuBoards doesn?t let answers such as "Omg This R0><0r5" or similar things but, could you bring in maturity to this?

2.) Please, if you agree with someone else, mention it, or if you disagree with it, say that too! Of course, state your reasoning behind it and why you think you have a valid argument to the case, or against another members post.

3.) If there is another thread like this one, I give permission to any mod to lock the thread, or delete it if it so tickles your fancy, all I ask is a quick PM to tell me (Just a gesture of kindness)

4.) Have fun with it, but not to the insane max, maybe a good debate could grow out of this, maybe not... I have no idea; it's something that has been on my mind lately, along with numerous other questions.

5.) Oh yes, if anyone notices anything about this introduction post that needs to be changes, dont hesitate to PM me about it
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That finished, my question: Why (More so in the western states, not quite sure about the eastern side of the world, as I don?t live there) are breasts such a taboo subject (Not sure if taboo is quite the word that conveys what I mean, but it shall have to suffice). I believe over in some places in Europe topless ness is more common etc. but why? Why have some countries adopted a casual view to this male/female topless ness, and other countries have strict codes you must adhere to?
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That said, question said, carry it whatever way you see fit, up or down, locked or not... I just thought it might be a good topic, and one that would satiate one piece of the puzzle of questions I have.

-Pawn

[Harry]

Because European countries on average are 30x more liberal than the United States.

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='Pawn114']If there is another thread like this one, I give permission to any mod to lock the thread[/quote]

YOU give THEM permission? This whole thread reeks of communism.

[ZakuSage]

[color=black][font=Arial][size=1]I could just tell you this tomorrow (well later on today technically) while we're playing Norrath all day, but I guess I can just put it here now.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font=Arial][size=1] [/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font=Arial][size=1]The reason breasts are considered "taboo" is because they're covered up. They're covered up because of old religious beliefs in which people believed all things erotic or appealing in a woman would have to be covered up as to not temp a man before the 2 became married (think of those full body coverings some people still wear in the middle east). In places where people lightened up over time, and breasts less and less covered up, they became less "taboo". If they weren't covered up, they wouldn't be so taboo.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font=Arial][size=1] [/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font=Arial][size=1]It's just plain de-sensitization. If you were to watch violent killing movies you're whole life, the killing in all movies would be less shocking to you.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font=Arial][size=1] [/size][/font][/color]

[color=black][font='Times New Roman'][font=Arial][size=1]Perhaps breasts being covered up are for good and bad. I can understand that it's less liberating and means less freedom in public places for women, but it also means that they have a greater shock value to those who only see them in covering.[/size][/font][/font][/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='wrist cutter']YOU give THEM permission? This whole thread reeks of communism.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]I have to disagree, I think it's way too capitalistic! Damn you you capitalistic pigs!

Okay. Actual discussion on the topic.

Personally I wouldn't mind if I was allowed to go topless. Wearing a bra is uncomfortable enough as it is, but wearing one in a climate where the thermometer reads 114 degrees and the humidity is about 80% is soem kind of inhumane torture. Why do you think women burned so many bras in the late 60's and early 70's?

Why should guys be the only ones allowed to go topless. I know I've seen quite a few men who I wish weren't allowed to go topless in the first place. Besides, the whole law against going topless doesn't stop women from breastfeeding in public. Why should non lactating women be discriminated against?

The reason the US isn't so gung ho about the whole topless thing is because there still aren't many women who [i]want[/i] to go topless badly enough. All through our lives we've been taught to be ashamed of our bodies thanks to a mainly judeo Christian society and society in general who tells us that our bodies aren't perfect unless you're a size 00 with porn star boobs.

Oddly enough that's not the case on most nude beaches. They have some real studies of scary human bodies on those beaches. But that's what we want to think.[/color]

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman']Besides, the whole law against going topless doesn't stop women from breastfeeding in public. Why should non lactating women be discriminated against?[/quote]

I don't care if they just had a baby and are a woman, I'll kick any publically breastfeeding harlot in the throat. No one wants to see me piss in public, and breastfeeding is just another excretion out of another orifice. Not only does she have the audacity to leave the house where she belongs, but now she's parading about without a shirt like a streetwalker. You can't get any more rude or indecent than that.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='wrist cutter']I don't care if they just had a baby and are a woman, I'll kick any publically breastfeeding harlot in the throat. No one wants to see me piss in public, and breastfeeding is just another excretion out of another orifice. Not only does she have the audacity to leave the house where she belongs, but now she's parading about without a shirt like a streetwalker. You can't get any more rude or indecent than that.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Well, yeah, until you have the guy punching the breast feeding woman in the gut. Or even better...the guy who decided to go commando in a pair of those nylon running shorts and his junk just starts flying around outside of his shorts causing a pile up. :laugh:

Besides, guys go and pee in public all the time, haven't you looked on the side of the interstate after a game lets out and there's all these middle aged men peeing on the side of the road? I know I have.

Now if you'll excuse me, i have some excretion out of another oriface to mop up.[/color]

[Harry]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]

Besides, guys go and pee in public all the time, haven't you looked on the side of the interstate after a game lets out and there's all these middle aged men peeing on the side of the road? I know I have.
[/color][/QUOTE]
I can tell you're jealous of our ability to pee anywhere.

But let's face it, most people look bad naked. I've walked by a nude beach and it was a horrific experience.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Harry']I can tell you're jealous of our ability to pee anywhere.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Actually I'm more jealous of the fact that you can write your name in the snow with your pee and I can't. Damn you with your Y chromosome! I want to write my name in the snow too.[/color]

[Ben]

So much for the requested maturity of the thread. Thanks a lot, Chibihorsewoman. =/

Just a quick thought on the subject though; think of the effects that encouraged toplessness could have:

[B]Increase in:[/B]

The amount of teenagers having sex.
The number of teenage pregnancies. (And tied into that, the number of abortions by unwilling and unready teens)
Heck, the number of abortions by adults.
The number of reported (or not reported) rapes.
Pedophilia.

Maybe even Necrophilia. 0.o

What I'm getting at is, if a man was to go walking around in an environment filled with something that he views as sex objects, his sex drive could be exponentially hyped up. The number and frequency of the events I've listed could go up. Is that something we want to happen?

[Lilt]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Why should guys be the only ones allowed to go topless. I know I've seen quite a few men who I wish weren't allowed to go topless in the first place.[/color][/quote][color=plum]Is it because guys (usually) have flat chests? Does that mean flat-chested girls, or girls who haven't hit puberty yet can go around without a shirt? If it is because are chests happen to be a bit bumpier, then what about those men that Chibi is talking about? The ones who would have to buy custom made bras because they wouldn't fit into anything else? Should they not be allowed to take off their shirts either? It isn't because our norkles actually serve a purpose. If that was the case, then their wouldn't be so much breastfeeding in public. :laugh: (I'm sorry, I just can't stop thinking about that one line from Meet the Parents. "I have nipples, can you milk me?" lol)[/color]
[color=plum]All I know is if I was trapped in a snowstorm, I would die without anyone ever knowing my name.[/color]

[Veritas]

[quote name='Ben']What I'm getting at is, if a man was to go walking around in an environment filled with something that he views as sex objects, his sex drive could be exponentially hyped up. The number and frequency of the events I've listed could go up. Is that something we want to happen?[/quote] [font=Century Gothic][color=darkred]I disagree because I think people would get used to the sight of breasts and they wouldnt be viewed as a sexual object anymore or at least not so much. So maybe then people would start to relate a nude body to beauty more than sex.[/color][/font]

[font=Century Gothic][color=darkred]I[/color][/font][font=Century Gothic][color=darkred] personally think nudity would also pretty much make porn useless (unless all you saw were ugly girls) because you would be around it so much it wouldn't be that much of a big deal anymore. [/color][/font]

[font=Century Gothic][color=darkred]I think part of the reason guys like breasts and nudity so much is because they are forbidden in most cultures and they are always covered. [/color][/font]

[font=Century Gothic][color=darkred]Thats just my opinion though and if it came down to it I like clothes cause there is something you dont want to see plus I like clothes most of the time.[/color][/font]

[Ben]

[quote name='shadowofdeath13][font=Century Gothic][color=darkred]I disagree because I think people would get used to the sight of breasts and they wouldnt be viewed as a sexual object anymore or at least not so much. So maybe then people would start to relate a nude body to beauty more than sex.[/color'][/font][/quote]


I will agree to that. Change can and will indeed happen, with time, and with new and different people. But what of the first few days, months, and years of this? It does take time for change, and during that time, the things I've listed have a good chance of increasing, I think.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Ben']I will agree to that. Change can and will indeed happen, with time, and with new and different people. But what of the first few days, months, and years of this? It does take time for change, and during that time, the things I've listed have a good chance of increasing, I think.[/quote]

Um, if you REALLY think about the first few months of toplessness becoming "legal," then you'd realize that the US won't suddenly turn into a big titty fest. It's not like you'll be surrounded by boobs the moment you walk out onto the street. Most women still won't go topless. It takes nigh forever for something like this to change, because it's de facto in addition to de jure. So it'd be VERY gradual.

Also I don't understand how at all it will mean more people having sex. Topless or not, guys want girls 24/7. ...Oh, and whoever said porn would become useless is way off base. Just ask my former roommate whose girlfriend appeared to fulfill all of his sexual needs, but yet he had the greatest porn archive I'd ever laid my eyes on (cd booklets upon cd booklets, lol).

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Ben]
[B]Increase in:[/B]

The amount of teenagers having sex.
The number of teenage pregnancies. (And tied into that, the number of abortions by unwilling and unready teens)
Heck, the number of abortions by adults.
The number of reported (or not reported) rapes.
Pedophilia.

Maybe even Necrophilia. 0.o
[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you're just making stuff up with no proof and all. Actually there's proof against you since Europe isn't one big pedophile orgy.

[Veritas]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Oh, and whoever said porn would become useless is way off base. Just ask my former roommate whose girlfriend appeared to fulfill all of his sexual needs, but yet he had the greatest porn archive I'd ever laid my eyes on (cd booklets upon cd booklets, lol).[/quote][font=Century Gothic][color=darkred]Im not talking about being sexuallly satisfied I'm talking about if you were around naked people all the time it wouldn't be that special. So I think porn would pretty much be useless for most people. Though I'm sure there still would be many that would, though I believe it is more out of addiction or habit.[/color][/font]

[Ben]

[quote name='Harry']I'm glad you're just making stuff up with no proof and all. Actually there's proof against you since Europe isn't one big pedophile orgy.[/quote]

Geez, forgive me for speculating. :rolleyes:

Europe is also different from our own country, with many diverse cultures, different from our own. Who knows how a healthy German or French teen may react in comparison to a heavyset American man who doesn't think he's ever going to get laid?

I don't know. Maybe you do. *shrug*

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Ben']So much for the requested maturity of the thread. Thanks a lot, Chibihorsewoman. =/[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Hey, don't blame me, I was being perfectly mature.

I doubt that seeing a woman's exposed breasts on a regular basis is going to cause a rise in teen pregnancies. I think that would be more along the lines of a limited distrubution of condoms and contraceptives than to the fact that some 45 year old is walking around topless.

As for a rise in abortions in adults. If an adult has a steady income, what's to stop him or her from purchasing impliments to prohibit pregnancy or impregnating someone. Along that same line of thinking. Why wouldn't an adult who doesn't want children just go and get a vasectomy or a tubal ligation?

Both these ideas are pretty farfetched in my opinion.

I doubt that everyone (save for those individuals who have quite a few issues) is at their sexual peak 24/7. It's kind of ridiculous to think that an entire population wouldn't be able to control themselves simply becuase a few women decide to take advantage of a hypothetical retraction prohibiting them to take their shirts off.[/color]

[Ben]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Hey, don't blame me, I was being perfectly mature.[/color][/quote]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Actually I'm more jealous of the fact that you can write your name in the snow with your pee and I can't. Damn you with your Y chromosome! I want to write my name in the snow too.[/color][/quote]

Perfectly, indeed.


[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']I doubt that seeing a woman's exposed breasts on a regular basis is going to cause a rise in teen pregnancies. I think that would be more along the lines of a limited distrubution of condoms and contraceptives than to the fact that some 45 year old is walking around topless.[/color][/quote]

I had meant it as an indirect cause. If more girls start walking around topless, guys may get hot over it and be more amped to get laid. Who knows, the extra freedom and fresh air might turn on some girls, too. *shrug*


[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']As for a rise in abortions in adults. If an adult has a steady income, what's to stop him or her from purchasing impliments to prohibit pregnancy or impregnating someone.[/color][/quote]

Indeed, what [I]is[/I] to stop them? You tell me. Topless world or not, there's still the same problem.


Most of what I said before was based on the idea of an [I]enforced[/I] toplessness. I wasn't thinking about the gradual integration. My apologies on any and all confusion brought on by the matter.

[Harry]

[quote name='Ben']Geez, forgive me for speculating. :rolleyes:[/quote]
You're not really speculating. You're making **** up off of your ideal that all American teens are fat and European teens are healthy and level headed. Then you go on to say that guys can't control themselves at all because women don't have tops on.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Ben']Perfectly, indeed.[/quote]


[color=darkviolet] Maybe you should have read Harry's comments as well before jumping on me about my replies and saying I'm acting immature. I was just replying to what he had said and just having some fun with the topic. Lighten up.[/color]

[quote name='Ben']I had meant it as an indirect cause. If more girls start walking around topless, guys may get hot over it and be more amped to get laid. Who knows, the extra freedom and fresh air might turn on some girls, too. *shrug*[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]That's like saying that every single man is programed to screw 24/7 and the fact that women keep wearing shirts is the only thing keeping them from going ape **** on everyone. Furthering this explaination of yours is saying that all humans are nothing more than base creatures focused only on sexual desires. Or that if a woman sees another woman's breasts she may suddenly experiance homosexual tendancies.[/color]

[quote name='Ben]Indeed, what [I]is[/I'] to stop them? You tell me. Topless world or not, there's still the same problem.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Would you care to clarify for me what's so wrong about birth control? I think that it's more responsible to go out and use protection or go through an operation to prohibit becoming pregnant or making someone pregnant than to not consider the consequences at all. I think you should go back and review a few things before continuing.[/color]

[outlawstar69]

Hmmm... all the wonderous and entertaining issues aside, we (as Westerners, at least) have already gone through such a phase, with almost exactly the same connotations. Does anyone remember the Victorian era? Of course not, but you've heard of it. Back then, look at what the women (and most "refined" men) wore: full body coverings, even to go swimming. They wore hats, gloves, long skirted dresses... pretty much covered all the way. In a way, it kinda reminds me of the social situation in many parts of the middle east... anyway, back to what I was saying. Back then, it was scandelous (and arousing, so I hear) if a women even showed her [I]ankles[/I], (yes her ankles) to a strange man. Hike the skirt a bit higher, show some knee, and you'd either get a crowd whistling or a cop chasing you down for indecent exposure. Times change, and you can practicly walk around in a thong and no one cares. Well, a few do. But you won't have people holding their hands over their mouths going and whispering in embarassment. I'm holding the topic of the thread to be analgeous to how things were way back when. Does anyone else see this?

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Yeah! If things keep heading how they are, eventually [i]nobody will wear clothes![/i]!! Right?

*rolls eyes* I don't think that it will ever be truly acceptable to just walk around in the nude. And even if a law was passed allowing women to, how many do you think would? How many could stand up to the stares, the gossip, the nastiness of it all. Besides, especially if a woman has heavier breasts, isn't it better to wear a bra because it puts more weight on the shoulders? Sure, there may be a select few who would opt for walking around without a top...but as a general rule, that isn't going to happen, and it just is indecent. Breasts have come to be a sex symbol, in a way, despite the fact that [Oh my God!] they actually serve a purpose. Coupled with the fact that men have been the 'dominant side' for so long, that kind of freedom for women is far-fetched. Besides, how would you like to be out with your girlfriend, and having every slobbering guy drooling over her? hey? How comfortable would you feel walking around without anything on, hey?

Exactly.[/size]

[quote=wrist cutter]I don't care if they just had a baby and are a woman, I'll kick any publically breastfeeding harlot in the throat. No one wants to see me piss in public, and breastfeeding is just another excretion out of another orifice. Not only does she have the audacity to leave the house where she belongs, but now she's parading about without a shirt like a streetwalker. You can't get any more rude or indecent than that.
[/quote]
[SIZE=1]
*claps*[/SIZE]

[Pawn114]

Ok, I like how this has grown into a debate-like structure.

Baron, I agree with your points, but it wasent so much of what would happen -if- a law allowing this activity were passed, but more of why are some countries stricter then others etc.

1.) I, personally think that very few women would walk around topless at first, and acceptance would slowly be gained (this is going off what has been spoken about previously), and those would have to be careful about when they walk around topless, but eventually (albeit, slowly) tolerance would grow and breasts would be considered less and less of a sex symbol.

2.) Getting onto the original question: I personally agree with Zakusage when he mentioned the taboo'ness of toplessness, due to a previous history of strictness due to religion (when religion governed almost everyone's lives. Not saying it doesnt affect people's lives, but I'm assuming not to quite the same extent). With what Outlawstar69 said, he was perfectly correct about the victorian period, but why is my question. Why is it, that over in europe its more casual and accepted, whereas in Canada/U.S it is viewed upon in a negative manner, outside of personal lives and home spaces.

So I'd like to pose the following extension to my question, in asking why the strictness between Europe and Canada/U.s (Sorry if I mention Canada/U.S quite a bit, but I live in Canada, so I am quite familiar with the country) is so great. Or has that difference grown out of proportion simply for the fact that there is topless'ness allowed? How many beaches are actually nude etc.

[Box Hoy]

[QUOTE]Besides, how would you like to be out with your girlfriend, and having every slobbering guy drooling over her? hey? How comfortable would you feel walking around without anything on, hey?[/QUOTE]

You've got a point. Maybe the strongest. The reason the goverment does not pass a law saying "Women can walk around with their boobs uncovered" is because they want our people to feel comfortable.
As for the high rapes and abortion thing. It would rise. Believe me. And no. Out of the billions of people in this world, even after time, there would still be people who would rape and abort.

Also think about this little far fetched idea (but still relevent) idea on the opposing side.
Our population is going to be spilling over in another 13-20 years. If we did let wemon walk around topless, the need for sex would go down but again, there'd still be that select few who cant get over boobs. Anyway. Our sex drive would go down and the population would decrease.

So is it a good thing or a bad thing to let women expose their breats in public?