Gaming Super Smash Bros. Melee

[Guest Vash331]

I love SSBM it's my second favorite game of all time (Halo right ahead of it). Me and some friends always sit around a tv and beat each other up whenever we get together. We're all awesome at the game especially myself. My best characters are Fox and Marth, i also like mario and DK. Oh i love falling asleep on people with jigglypuff and sending them flying, who knew such a cute pink puff could deal so much damage? My friends are good at some strange characters though in my opinion. I'll just tell you their names and who they're good at.
Karlton - Samus
Austin - Ganondorf
Josh - Marth
I didn't even know you could be good at Samus or Ganondorf until they came around. I mean if you play the game then you probally know what i'm talking about.Austin can make Ganondorf move so fast it's crazy, i mean i battled him with fox and had a tough time keeping up with him. And Karlton always uses Samus to spike people (when an opponent is still in the air with no ground below them, somebody jump out to them and smacks them down to the bottom of the screen and killing them, usually with the down smash in the air), he also loves those damn missles. He needs flat levels to fight well, that's why his favorite level is final destination, i hate that level.

Levels:
My favorite level is easily the StarFox one with the ship flying through Corneria. The original Mute City one is cool too, although the unlockable one has a great concept, i just don't think it works as well as it could have.

Characters:
I personally think Fox is for beginners, mainly because of his up smash attack, it's so powerful, but hard to master. Bowser is a horrible character, nobody uses him except for noobs. I don't think Sheik has enough power.

My Skill:
I can easily take on a lv 9 cpu without any problem. I can also usually come out on top when doing a free for all with lv 9 cpus, and fight the whole time. I challenge anyone.

So anyways what do you guys think of the game? Who's your best character? What are your friend's best characters? How good are you? What do you think about different characters? What levels do you all like/dislike?

[Erika]

[size=1][color=purple]Er, that's nice. I've lost track on how many threads I see on Melee. :cross:

But since I'm here, might as well add that Bowser, Pikachu and Young Link are my faves. Lol, but Bowser takes the cake. [i]"Super-Size him please!"[/i]

Er--I don't mean play mod or anything *fidgets*--I just simply can't help but comment how old this subject is! *starts tearing hair out* :moron:[/color][/size]

[Desbreko]

[quote name='Vash331']I didn't even know you could be good at Samus or Ganondorf until they came around. I mean if you play the game then you probally know what i'm talking about.[/quote]
[color=#4B0082]Heheh...you have no idea. Samus and Ganondorf are two of my best characters. Level 9 CPU characters stand absolutely no chance against me when I play as them, especially Ganondorf. A lot of people I know think Ganondorf sucks because he's too slow, but he's really not. He moves somewhat slow, but his attacks, if used correctly, can be quick enough to take on Fox easy.

But anyway, SSBM was the first game that I got with my GameCube, and just like with the original Super Smash Bros. on the N64, I've consistantly gone back to it time and time again. Mainly I play five minute, free-for-all timed matches against three level 9 CPU characters in versus mode, since there are rarely any other people around to play. Since unlocking everything (and I mean [i]everything[/i]), one player mode is just boring for me anymore; I prefer the four player mayhem of versus matches.

My favorite (and best) characters would be, in no real order, Link, Samus, Ganondorf, and Roy. While I was disappointed how weak they made Link's projectile attacks compared to in the original SSB, he's quicker and can jump higher, so I think that makes up for it. His sword attacks are all awesome, and can be strung together to form some pretty nice combos. Especially the Spin Attack -- there's just a ton of ways it can be used, from a simple attack to both sides, to catching someone with the second-to-last rotation as they try and jump back onto the platform, knocking them quickly downwards into the pit. I can put a Spin Attack into almost every combo I do with Link.

Samus has been my favorite character to use lately. She's both a good close and long range fighter, which I love. She's quick, she can jump high (and wall jump and catch edges with the Grappling Beam), she has a good variety of close range attacks that vary in speed and power, and her missiles.... Oh, her missiles, how I love them. If you've got good aim, her smash missiles can be oh so deadly. I've found nothing better in the game than hearing my friends' cries of anguish as I peg them with a missile from across the level, [i]while in mid-air,[/i] to KO them.

Ganondorf is, in my opinion, one of the most underrated characters in the game. People see him much like Bowser, it seems; powerful, but too slow to be useful. And thus, they never even try to get good with him. And then, of course, they fight me and I beat them down using Ganondorf while they play as a fast character like Fox, heh. (It's not the greatest way to be enlightened about how good Ganondorf can be, but it works. :toothy: ) So while I actually enjoy playing on the other three characters I've mention more than I do on Ganondorf, he's probably actually the character I'm best with.

Roy I like much for the same basic reasons as Link -- his sword attacks -- but playing on Roy requires a different style of fighting. Link is better with simple hack and slash fighting (though he's much better with well executed combos), while Roy, I've found, takes much more skill to do good on. Combos are almost mandatory, because if you only try to use his powerful attacks, you won't hit much. And really, this is the main reason I love playing on him; if you want to get better with him, you pretty much have to develop your combos. In such a hectic game as SSBM, Roy and Marth seem to require the most finesse.

It took me a long time to decide (try a year or more), but I've finally come to the conclusion that Onett is my favorite level in SSBM. (But it still pisses me off that they included three of the most boring stages from the original SSB and left out Saffron City, Hyrule Castle, and Peach's Castle.) I've always loved levels with a large variety of different leveled platforms, as well as a good environmental hazard, and Onett fits the bill perfectly. It's my replacement for Saffron City in the original SSB, I guess. It's my most played level when I'm just playing with CPU characters; makes a good "training ground" because the terrain is so varied, so you have to get good at combat from all angles.

As for my skill level...I really don't know. I've gotten to the point where I pretty much just never get below first place when playing a free-for-all match with three level 9 CPUs unless I use a character I'm not very good on. But like I said, I barely ever have any human players around that are at least close to my skill level, so it's hard to judge. That, and playing against CPU and human players is vastly different; human players have actual intelligence instead of cheap advantages. I'd really just have to play against someone to know how good I am in relation to them.

Right, so there's my overly long post about SSBM. It's always good to brag -- er, talk -- about this game, heh. ^_^[/color]

[Dragon Warrior]

I always play as Fox McCloud. He's my character. I've been trying to master his moves for a while, try to become unbeatable. I get wasted by my friends who play constantly, nevertheless. But people who play as often as me or less, I get the upper hand ;^D

He has fast moves too. He may not be the quickest character (I think Captain Falcon is), but he's definately one of the speediest. Falco shares his moves pretty much, but damn! Fox is da bomb!

[Vash IDK]

Dang, Link is my all time player. When I'm in the Hyrule castle level, I run to the bottom and no one is able to get me off without me getting at least 400% damage. No joke. They kick me, but Link has so many manuevers that allow him to stay on. Pretty hard to learn them all, but well worth the effort.

My brother though is unbeatable where I live. He plays as Samus, and he bombs like crazy with hits after each other. It's HARD. I've only beaten him a few times, but he's always been able to reclain his title.

[Makurayami]

I love the game and I am unbeatable with Zelda/Shiek. I run circles around my friends and when they aren't expecting it I hit them. I love the speed.

Ad my favorite level is probably Zebes with Kraid. Being Shiek I am fast so I can jump all over the level. While my friends try to keep up I usually hit them.

[Ben]

I've always wanted to see a match between fools who call themselves "unbeatable". :p

I, fortunately, am not so immodest to say that I am unbeatable. I've been beaten on many occasions, and I do sometimes struggle with three level 9 CPUs. *shrug* I'm not the best, and neither are any of you, I'd wager (EDIT: Except maybe Desbreko =P). But enough of my [I]holier-than-thou[/I] sort of talk, on to the game!

If I had to pick one character that I was best with, I'd probably say Donkey Kong. I think he's got the lightest weight of the physically powerful characters, and he's maneuverable enough in the air with his Up+B Special.

I play with just about every character, depending on what sort of mood I'm in and who I'm facing. I use Falco the least, with Fox a close second. Heh, I don't think I'm fast enough to keep up with Fox, and Falco just annoys me for some reason. To play quasi-seriously I'll use DK, Link, or Samus. But to have fun, I'll use everybody else. The Ice Climbers tend to annoy a lot of people, heh.

[Shwa]

Fox is my best character ever, he may not be too strong but his agility and speed are all I need to kick butt. My second character i'm good at would have to be Link cause...he's Link ^.^ I probably do the same as you Vash331, hang out with my friends in the basement and play DDR, Halo, or super Smash Bros. Melee (thank god for those games to be invented) *tear*

[eleanor]

[color=firebrick] *ditches all sense of modesty* I freaking own this game when I'm playing with Link, Roy, or Marth...*modesty comes back* but my friends will beat the crap outta me when I'm with anyone else. Maybe I have a fetish for swords or something.

When I first started playing SSBM, I had an unhealthy obsession with Roy and wouldn't really play with anyone else. I'm not into doing anything random with Roy like going up and just hitting people, I get hit back about ten times if I don't be careful with EVERYTHING I execute when I play with Roy in a big battle. And I learned never to use him as an aerial fighter. >_> But he can totally destroy anyone in a one-on-one battle...no matter what, lol. And if you've played with him a lot of can destroy everyone in a big battle, too. So..yay. :) I think Roy and own and be everyone's mothers in this game. XO He's so cool.

Marth is like Roy, except worse. That's all I really have to say, lol.

No, I just kid. I used to think that when I first played with him but I can beat a level nines with Marth and his wonderful blade tip, so it's all good. I never play with him anymore in big battles, though, I enjoy having giant fun fests with Link. :D

Link > Everyone, so disregard what I said about Roy earlier. :O [how can anyone NOT like Link?!] He's a good player overall, since Roy and Marth can't do hit and run XD. Just kidding. Or am I?

Anyways, you can use both combos and the button mashing technique with him [which is why he's excellent for beginners, lol. My friend picked up the GCN controller for her first time and slaughtered a level 6 player with Link] so he's good in small and big battles. Once you get moving with Link and start hitting your enemy nonstop with his sword, you already have the first place trophy in your hands. And his little spin attack is the [b]best[/b]. You can do like 50 combos with that thing. I think. ~_~

I don't have a favorite arena, though. All I can say is that I don't like Hyrule Castle because a lot of time we all seperate into corners and so we can barely see ourselves, lol. And I have bad eyesight. And basically my skill...uh...well, I can beat fighting three nine level CPUs at the same time with Link/Roy/Marth but as I said before I'd totally die if I got in there with someone like Kirby.[/color]

[Engel]

[COLOR=royalblue][size=1]I'm a....[/color][/size][color=purple]Mewtwo user. I like to just charge up Psi balls, then shift to the other side when they go to hit. It's funny, I've done it for an hour straight. Although, I also like 'is hypnotic stare, because another hypnotic stare, and then they go flying. My favorite 1-1 is...[/COLOR][Color=green][size=1]Luigi! His headbutt attack is awesome, and the one in nine chance of misfire (which was a glitch, I think. it quadriples Luigi's Green Missile attack in both strength and range.) is an added bonus. His fireballs are good for players that like to jump and he's just cool.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Guest Vash331]

Well that's good, i'm glad some people finally posted about SSBM, i was beginning to think me and my friends were the only ones interested in the game, then i wondered why i'm so stupid, i mean who doesn't like SSBM, except anti-gamecube people (PS2 owners).
I noticed a lot of people seemed to like Link a lot, which reminded me that i have another friend who likes to play: Casey - Link. Personally i like the character, but i'm not great with him, and i can't say i agree with some of you guys when you say he's the best, blah blah blah.
Another thing i noticed is that most people prefer roy over marth if they even care about the two. I think marth is leagues over roy...but at the moment i can't remember why, i havn't played the game in a long while. I think it has to do with speed or how fluid marth is....something like that.
I wish SSBM had online play, that would be so awesome. I could take on some of you guys who think your better than me...not to say you aren't, but i'd defianately like to take some of you on, especially those who rarely play with humans, humans are like level 15's in comparison.
Yeah Mage15 i do pretty much just hang out and play those games with friends, although Halo is a different group of friends for me. My friends are pretty much good at one but not the other, except for 1 or 2 exceptions plus myself.
Thank god for competitive games like SSBM and Halo, what would i do without them? Read maybe?? Na......well, mangas. Go Naruto!!!

[Dragon Warrior]

It seems like nobody likes using Fox because of his speed :P Once you get use to him, his speed isn't that hard to handle. You just have to be careful with his "Fox Illusion" tactic on smaller battlefields where you can fall right off the edge (example would be Yoshi's Island, Fountain of Dreams, etc.). But Fox definately kicks it into high storm on his homeland of Corneria. Man, can I use Fox there ^_^

[JuliasPeach]

I love this game! I use Peach and I always kick but! ^_^ Peach is sooooo cool in this game! She can float, block her self with toad, pluck veggawsome! :D I always tick my friend off who always uses Roy! I just float above him and start kicking him! Yeah, so can you tell i like peach!

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Personally, I prefer Roy over Marth mainly because I'd rather have Roy's extra power over Marth's extra speed. I mean yeah, Marth is a bit quicker, but I'm good enough with dodging and the counter attack move that I don't really get hit on Roy any more than I do on Marth. That, and it annoys me that once you start doing Marth's normal A slash a couple times, you have to wait a bit to do a different move. You can't just tap A a few times and then switch right into a side+A or a smash attack like you can on Roy. So Marth's normal A slash may be quicker, but it's also much more of a pain for me to combo with.

But as for any one character being the best...it isn't true, no matter which someone says is. The game is balanced well enough that very few, if any, characters have a clear, overall advantage over others. I think SSBM is a little more unbalanced than the original SSB, but certainly not enough for there to be an absolute best character. So I hope no one seriously believes their choice of character is better than another person's; that sort of thinking directly contradicts the way the game itself was made.[/color]

[Guest Vash331]

I agree with you about the whole balance things, but i would defianately say that some characters have some obvious problems. I mean i don't think any serious player uses bowser, or Yoshi. And fox is much better at one on one matches as a pose to free for alls, he just gets beat up so easily. I can't really think of too many other things at the moment, oh yeah, pichu sucks. Well I'm sure you can still play as those characters and kick butt, it's just a good deal harder in my opinion, maybe it's just me.
Oh and another player: Alex - Luigi. Alex is my brother and he's really damn good with Luigi. I hate fighting him cause we always get into a fight, there is so much pride involved. I can only play him in 3 or 4 player matches, otherwise it gets dirty. he's only just turned 13. I'm 16.
It's hard losing when your the oldest, or the best, everybodies always after you, and if you slip up they really rub it in. Plus not to mention your used to winning anyways, it's not fun to lose. Anybody else know what i'm talking about?

[Manic Webb]

I don't own this game (because I never got a Gamecube, mostly), but a friend of mine has it. Whenever the whole lot of us would go to his house, he'd pull out SSBM. My 4 best characters are Peach, Pikachu, Pichu, and Ness.

Peach is such a fun character, and it's easy to use her to lure people over the edge. Her moves pack very little power (with the exception of that hip-move), but she handles weapons like a master. Once I get ahold of a bat or beam sword, I'm keeping it until I die... which won't be anytime soon. I also enjoy turniping people to death. The fact that it doesn't make you fly across the screen makes people forget how high the turnips increase their damage. Plus, during free-for-alls, I tend to jump as high as possible, whip out my umbrella, and watch my opponents beat each other senseless.

Pikachu was my #1 character in the original SSB for N64. He was quick, had a sneaky zip move, and I got the hang of using that thunderbolt move of his. Naturally, I also play as Pichu.

I think I'm the only person I know who likes playing as Ness. I mean, the kid comes with his own cracked bat. I can blast people from across the screen, thrust myself as a weapon, and dazzle my opponents with deadly yo-yo tricks. Not to mention energy blasts heal him.

[Purple Haze]

My Favorite Chaacter is Kirby. Most peole don't like him because he is so light and gets knocked off easily. He'safun character to play as because he can change his moves and appearance. I made up a little trick when someone gets knover over the edge, get close and when they try to come back hittem with wind Cutter and it forces them down and they can't move. Auto Kill!!

My favorite level is Hyrule temple because me and my friends don't play regular free for all we play Super sudden death. the temple has a lot of free space so you can run. But I use Samus sometimes and blast them with missles or her charge blast from long range and it comes from surprise.

[Guest Jentin]

Jigglypuff is a very good character to use. Her B move is really cheap. It's where she rolls around and charges up and launches herself at the opponent. You can base your whole strategy around the move and do fairly well in a 4 person match against 4 people because everybody is too busy concentrating on each other to disrupt or dodge your move. Against Peach, you can use it to knock her off and Peach will only be at about 55% damage. Of course, this was Fountain of Dreams, but on Temple, they're going to go pretty far across the stage.

And now opinion: I don't really have a favorite character. I like to use just about everybody, even if I do horribly. Although my best character is probably Link. Link's shield (master shield, not the orb) is useful against physical ranged attacks, as they'll just bounce off the shield as long as he's facing the projectile. Even Samus's missiles are affected by this, making it useful for those missile abusers. Ah Link, is there anything you can't do.

[Kevin129]

i agree with Vash IDK on choice of level. However I use Mario. I know its real easy to master him. He's kinda like a character for a beginer but i still manage to pull out some amazing combos with him. I'm not into ffa with 4 people. the screen gets too small and i cant see what im doing. I'll play this way only if all the opponents are my friends. The computer does stupid stuff like repeatedly jumping on and off platforms on the other side of the map. Man i havent played this game in forever. I think i'll go play right now actually :) .

[THE EVIL EYE]

My personal favourite character is either Marth or Roy- Marth because of how quickly he can turn a fight around against a large character and how quickly he can counter a move. The main weakness with this guy is that he doesn't have very good combos besides the dancing blade move.

Roy because of how speedy he is for a guy who can knock someone out with a fully charged move as well as the up+b move which drags the opponent upwards. The main weakness with this guy is how he cannot have a chance at charging up the flare blade against a fast opponent as well as how slowly his combos can be.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

I still play this game more than any other, which says a lot considering how relatively old it is.

My favorite character to use is Link, although that's more than anything a liability, as I have trouble beating those friends of mine who use strictly higher-tier chars such as Marth or, especially, Sheik.

Actually I found it interesting that I have far less trouble against Marth than I do against the Mario bros. As much of an air god that Marth is, he doesn't have the same mid-air recovery time that the Mario bros. do, and that means I can't take advantage of even simple throw combos nearly as much. I have to get my brother's Mario to near-200 before I send him with a random tilt move, whereas I can just throw-down and up-B-spike his Marth in the 130's (or earlier).

Recently I've been trying to improve my game with wavedashing and L-canceling, but it's really hard for me. Wavedashing is really the only one of those I think I even manage to do on occasion, and although it's cool as hell, I can't utilize it effectively.

Oh, and anyone who says that Roy is better (or as good as) Marth really hasn't played both characters enough. Marth is a hundred times better. He's faster, and that's what counts the most in SSBM. Faster successive attacks, faster recovery. They make a lot of difference. That and move priority, which Marth has highest (in the air, anyway).

[Brasil]

But Sciros, if speed is what SSBM is all about, how can an exceptional Ganondorf player obliterate an above-average Sheik player? If speed is what "counts the most" in Melee, how can you explain a Bowser holding his own against Marth? Or Pikachu dominating Falco or Fox? Just based on those match results alone, Melee is more about player skill than character speed.

I'm sure character speed has something to do with victory rates, but if a Novice player plays with a Top-Tier character like Shiek, and an experienced player uses Ganondorf, the experienced player (Ganondorf) will win. But if speed is the biggest factor in Melee, Shieks should always win, regardless of player skill.

But that's not the case at all. So, care to explain?

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Again, this comes down to how balanced the game is. If a character's speed mattered that much, I wouldn't have been able to totally thrash someone of near equal skill level with Ganondorf while he was playing on Fox. It just wouldn't have been possible. Speed does not make or break a character; almost nothing short of a few select items in a few select situations can make or break a match, in fact. The thing is, almost every character is balanced well enough against the others that there are very few clear advantages. And that's not just my opinion, that's a simple fact of how the game was made.

And no offense to anyone, but this is something I've noticed a lot with people who prefer quick characters. Most of them seem to think that fast characters are better than slower ones, and that the slower ones can't possibly match up to faster ones. Now, I don't claim to be some grand master at the game, but I've proven that wrong through personal experience. Believe me or not, but I have, as I said with the Ganondorf vs. Fox example. And besides, if fast characters were the end-all, be-all of the game, why would anyone play on slower characters?

So about Marth being better than Roy . . . he's not. Neither is Roy better than Marth. Each requires a different playing style to get the full potential out of them, but at the end of the day, the higher skilled player is going to win more often no matter which of the two they're using. And I've played a lot on both Marth and Roy, so don't think I'm just inexperienced with Marth; I know how to use Marth quite well, I simply prefer Roy's style.

Oh, and about move priority for which attack breaks through which, as far as I can tell, it also works off of timing, not just set move priorities. Yes, there are some attacks you just aren't going to break through with certain other attacks because of a large difference in attack strength, but if the attacks are nearly as strong as one another, it seems to me like it's mainly timing that counts. Like if two people use two strong attacks but one person's connects at the very strongest point in the attack (better timing), while the other person's connects at a weaker point in the attack (worse timing), the person with the better timing would break through. This is something I had absolutely mastered in the original SSB, though with the faster paced gameplay of SSBM it's much harder to get as good at it as in SSB.

Take, for example, the fact that I've been able to break through hammers on occasion. (And I mean breaking directly through them; not coming from behind, or using a long range grab or something like that, but simply doing an attack against the swing of a hammer and having it break through to hit the person holding the hammer.) Now, if move breakthroughs were based on simple priorities, you'd think a hammer, if anything, would be highest on the list. But still, I was able to hit the person with Ganondorf's down+A attack in the air, I think it was. That move isn't as powerful as a hit from a hammer, but it's decently close, and I was able to break through with it. But the thing is, I can't always break through hammers with that move, so I know one can't simply have a higher priority than the other; something more has to be involved, and from my observations, it seems like if you can get the timing just right for when an attack will connect, you have a better chance of breaking through another person's attack.

But, as I say, these are just my observations and my hypothesis. It could be something else, but I'd almost be willing to bet that that's how the developers programmed it.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE]But Sciros, if speed is what SSBM is all about, how can an exceptional Ganondorf player obliterate an above-average Sheik player? If speed is what "counts the most" in Melee, how can you explain a Bowser holding his own against Marth? Or Pikachu dominating Falco or Fox? Just based on those match results alone, Melee is more about player skill than character speed.[/QUOTE]
Well no kidding. But when we compare [i]characters[/i], we can't take into account player skill. Otherwise what does it mean to say that Bowser is worse than Marth? Oh, and as for your Ganondorf example, have you seen the best Ganondorfs in the world play? If you have, you'd have noticed that they use mostly air attacks, which of his repetoire are by far his fastest attacks. Pretty much the only time I've seen them use smash attacks is to time a send. And forget about his tilt moves, heh.

[quote name='Desbreko']Again, this comes down to how balanced the game is. If a character's speed mattered that much, I wouldn't have been able to totally thrash someone of near equal skill level with Ganondorf while he was playing on Fox. It just wouldn't have been possible. Speed does not make or break a character; almost nothing short of a few select items in a few select situations can make or break a match, in fact. The thing is, almost every character is balanced well enough against the others that there are very few clear advantages. And that's not just my opinion, that's a simple fact of how the game was made.[/quote]
Well, Des, this is one of the few times when you are more wrong than right. The SSBM characters are far from balanced. Very far from it. If you take a look at tournament results as well as the characters preferred by the world's most dominant players, you'll find a certain pattern. To the best of my memory, the following list places the SSBM characters in "tiers," from best to worst, ranked by what people say are 60 "elite" Smash experts that seem to be very respected (these tiers are acknowledged by the world-class players that I've spoken to or seen play, anyhow).

Sheik
Fox
Marth

Falco
Peach
Capn Falcon
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

Dr Mario
Mario
Luigi

Link
etc. etc. (forget order here)

Bowser
Pichu

(Roy is near the bottom, by the way)

There may be a few differences in that second tier as far as order goes, but it's as good as I could do off the top of my head. These tiers are rated from 1 to 10, with Sheik, Fox and Marth getting in the upper 9.'s and Bowser getting something like 0.5 and Pichu 0.3.

Now, I'm not saying these tiers are exactly the way to judge what character is strictly "better" than another, but apparently these are how the games end up when world-class players square off. And based on the matches I've seen, as well as all of my experience, these tiers are not far off. Anyone below Link, my Link crushes. Anyone above, it's not quite that easy (as long as my opponents are good). As a matter of fact, the gap between Link and Luigi is the largest between any two characters.

Now, these tiers are also "generalizations." By that I mean that Link might have an easier time vs. Marth than vs. Mario (which has been my experience as I've mentioned before), but Marth and Mario both have an easier time against more characters than Link does (Marth having more).

As for the questions regarding move priority, yes timing does play a part. But for certain moves, timing to break through them is a much more difficult task than for others. For instance, some characters have almost no weapons against Link's sword-plant, whereas Sheik can just flex her man-pecs and Link will go flying in the air.

Another issue with move priority is hit boxes. Internally, which collision boxes will deal damage and which will take damage. For certain moves, there is nothing resembling a "balance" when it comes to this. Take for instance Marth's forward smash. When executing it, Marth's "damage" boxes are so much smaller than his "deal damage" boxes that it's scary to look at. (I used to have actual screenshots of the internal hit boxes as Marth and other characters execute some moves, but I've lost them, so sorry I can't provide any concrete proof unless I do some serious searching.)

Then there's the question of "sweet spots." As most proficient Smashers know, moves have "sweet spots" which will deal far more damage than if they connect with something other than that area. With Link's up+B on the ground, from my experience it's a chunk of the end of the sword that has the sweet spot. If you get someone with the tip of your blade when they're standing right next to you and over 100%, they'll fly straight out sideways. Marth's forward smash's sweet spot is also the tip of his sword, and since it arcs like a solid 150% or so and has a huge range, it's one of the best moves in the game.

Heh, as for Marth or Roy being better, I first decided it was Marth because I have so much more trouble against fast-recovery quick Marth than against as-slow-as-Link-but-with-half-the-versatility-or-range Roy. Watching the best Marths and Roys that I've managed to find, the Marths are way scarier and deadlier. Now, obviously skill plays a factor. My Link is way better than a lot of people's Marth [i]or[/i] Roy. But I still say Marth is a better character than Link or Roy. It's mostly from my personal experience. But the research others have done supports it.

EDIT: I thought it'd be important to note that to an average Smasher, the "tiers" and their origin can reasonably seem very vague and not-too-reliable. But you have to keep in mind that these tiers really make themselves known when you're talking about the "best Marth in the world" squaring off against the "best Captain Falcon in the world." When both players know their character inside-and-out and have perfected all the tougher moves like wavedashing and L-canceling and shffl's and so forth, as well as any and all possible combos.

Want to see some killer Marths? Go to my website [url]www.sciros.net[/url] and click on the one link I have up there (I posted it a while ago for a friend who couldn't find the video on direct connect). It's the "Marths that rock" link. And they do rock.

[Brasil]

Sciros, I notice you're tossing around a few numbers and this phrase, "World-class." You mention these rankings of the 60 top players in the world, as well. I also notice that no links are posted, except for your recent Edit of the "Marths that rock" video clip.

You've mentioned how you've seen World-class players play. Well, forgive me for asking for some more detail here, but where have you seen them play? What cities? What countries? How many tournaments? I notice that information is absent, and I think it would be a good idea to provide all of that information.

Also, without links to professional studies and surveys conducted by reputable gaming or statistics sites, your numbers mean nothing. If you don't provide your sources and substantiate your numbers, which at this point are really just claims, we have no choice but to treat your information and statistics as little more than what we all could find on various messageboards across the 'net. And to further go into that a bit, what's to say that whatever we find on one messageboard will concur with that of another, totally different messageboard? At this point, we can only treat your numbers as..."IGN Melee Board Garbage."

I also find fault with your statements about player skill and its relation to character strengths. I'm going to venture a rather radical statement here, so just hear me out. It is virtually impossible to decide which character is better than another. Regardless of what people we talk to, what we see online, player skill always factors in to the assessments.

I think a proper metaphor for gaming is an ocean, in that everyone and everything is constantly intermingling with each other, affecting and being affected. What happens to one happens to all. It is a fluid exchange of skill, and the gamer, despite what they may think, cannot remove themselves from the ocean. If they view it as a mere puddle, able to be avoided, they will drown.