Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Heh, I should've just added this as an edit, since I knew I'd get a reply like this. Some of my information comes from a Smash Bros direct connect channel where really good players post and/or share videos of the best Smash players in the world (some of these players being on the channel). I don't know if I should post the channel's address here, seeing as I was invited to it as opposed to just running into it (and it's not large by any standard). But I don't feel like PMing you. I expected people to say that there is nothing to support my information. And really I did provide nothing. The truth is, I tried to research all of this information myself when I first heard it. As it turns out, those "tiers" are well known among the more competitive Smashers, so they weren't just randomly thought up. I ran into mention of them on smashboards and other random places. As for who those 60 people who created the tiers are, well, nobody has been able to tell me much more than that they're killer players who have done a lot of research themselves. I think there was also some acronym they were referred to by, but I forget what it was. Something like "MBR" but maybe I don't remember properly. I tried to look for "reputable statistics" myself but failed in my search unfortunately. However, spend a few days on the DC channel and you'll know that the tiers aren't total bull. You'll also notice that some people are like 10000 times better than you can ever hope to be. I mean, who on the planet can homerun the sand bag to over 11000? Anyway, of course there's no "Smash Bros Bible" where it's stated that "1. Marth shall smite all... besides Sheik and Fox that is." And "tiers" and all that barely comes into play when you're talking about casual play. But when Isai uses Falcon against Ken's Marth (these are screennames of the best players I've seen that handled these characters), it's almost outright obvious who has the advantage. My point is that characters in Smash are NOT balanced, and you'll find a lot of good players agree with me. Like it or not, Bowser and Game And Watch do not win anywhere near the majority of Smash tourneys. Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falco do. Links I believe do ok, but that's probably because there's so many of them, heh. Anyway, PETEY, in the end it doesn't matter if you think my info is "ign message board garbage" or not, because it isn't and that's that. Rather than asking me for sources you should have tried to confirm the information yourself, as I did. Then you'd maybe learn something rather than just attack anything I write because it doesn't coincide with your world view. EDIT: Here I found something for ya, ya bum. [url]http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/index.php?function=view_thread&threadid=325040&p=1[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 [quote name='Sciros']Anyway, PETEY, in the end it doesn't matter if you think my info is "ign message board garbage" or not, because it isn't and that's that. Rather than asking me for sources you should have tried to confirm the information yourself, as I did. Then you'd maybe learn something rather than just attack anything I write because it doesn't coincide with your world view.[/quote] All I did was ask for some sources, nothing more. Nothing I said in my post was inflammatory, or attacking you, so I don't see how you could take offense to anything I said. If asking you to provide links is too much to ask, and you are so offended and/or insulted by it, I don't know what to tell you, Sciros. I was respectful in my reply, and I did not attack you. It's the truth. You dropped the name Smashboards, too. You may not be aware of this, but I did frequent those boards back some three years ago. In fact...in my time browsing the IGN messageboards, specifically, the Melee forum, a few members praised Smashboards. I checked them out, and it was adequate. Nothing spectacular. Honestly, I'm not trying to insult you here, either. But I took the liberty now, and re-visited Smashboards. Nothing has changed. In fact, I just perused a few threads each page in the Melee discussion areas, and to tell you the truth, I read that same material three years ago on the IGN Melee Board. Perhaps IGN members and Smashboard members are some of the same people, I don't know. But what I do know is, that the Info threads stickied at the top of those pages are nothing new. Their description of [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=40948]L-canceling[/url] is nothing more than a Floor-tech. Their FAQs and guides are GameFAQ material. The frame analysis...it is totally extraneous material and wholly unneeded for anything regarding Smash. When there are threads there asking the members how Melee has taken over their lives, and when that thread has how many pages of the same type of reply? You may worship them, Sciros. You may praise them to no end, but I've read all of that before, back when Smash Melee first came out. But, by all means, continue to browse there. You do what you want, but I'm not impressed by the board that houses your gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desbreko Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 [color=#4B0082]Okay, yes, when you start to get two people about as close to a perfect skill level as is possible, and then have them fight each other, you'll see some clear distinctions between which characters are better. I think that's getting to the point where you're splitting hairs, however, since no game is going to be completely balanced. And for anyone that doesn't practically devote their life to the game, it's not going to matter, because they're not going to get that good. But about that Marth video, I actually do most of those same tricks and combos while using Roy. I use more ground attacks than air, and while they're not as quick as Marth's air attacks, on the ground I can dodge and counter attack very nearly as fast as those Marths were. So while yes, those players are better than me and would most likely thrash me no matter which character I used, the actual technique didn't impress me much considering I do a lot of the same stuff only at a lower skill level. So I still hold that Roy is not as bad as you make him out to be, if only for the simple fact that you can still do with Roy most of what you can do on Marth while sacrificing a bit of speed for a bit more power. I mean, when the exact same relationship exists between Marth and Roy as exists between Fox and Falco, and there's a huge gap in the tier ranking in between Marth and Roy while Fox and Falco are both near each other, I have a hard time believing the tiers are all that accurate. There's just too much of a difference in ranking for the amount of actual difference between Marth and Roy.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Building on Desbreko has said regarding the Tier List and the questionable placing of Marth/Roy vs Fox/Falco, I'm noticing some other unusual placements, as well, and I feel these problems should be explored. Using the Tier List that Sciros provided, let's examine it. [quote][b][size=1]-=Top=- Shiek Fox Marth -=Upper=- Falco Peach Captain Falcon Samus Jigglypuff -=High=- Gannondorf Mario Dr. Mario Luigi -=Mid=- Link Pikachu Ice Climbers Roy Zelda Young Link Yoshi -=Lower=- Ness Donkey Kong Kirby G&W Mewtwo -=Bottom=- Bowser Pichu[/size][/b] [/quote] If we look at the Top Tier as it stands right now, we see three characters only, Marth, Fox, and Shiek. Why are these characters placed together, at the top? Sciros has strongly emphasized how Speed is the biggest determining factor in evaluating the Tier List, or at least which characters are best. Given Speed as the primary evaluation criterion, we find characters in the lower Tiers that should be right at the top, or at least seen somewhere in the Top Tier. Pichu, for example. Pichu is one of the fastest characters in the game, hands-down. What he lacks in Power, he makes up for in pure Speed. If this Tier list is based on Speed, then the exclusion of Pichu in the Top Tier is incredibly questionable. Given this information, the Tier is rather broken. In Melee, there is often a trade-off of character abilities, most notably Speed for Power and Power for Speed. Are these Tiers based upon Power, then, if Pichu is at the bottom of the list? Let's examine the Tiers in terms of Power. Again, there are characters placed at the bottom when they should definitely be placed near the top. On the basis of Power, Bowser and Pichu are incredibly strong. Bowser is clearly pure brute force, but Pichu should not be underestimated in this regard, as his Forward Smash is one of the more damaging and lethal attacks in the game, and his Upward Smash is, as well. With his Upward Smash, Pichu in fact rivals Fox and Shiek, especially Fox, as one of the deadlier Smashers in the game. Game And Watch also is incredibly powerful. His Forward Smash is quite effective, and his Forward B, when connecting with a 6 through 9, can KO a player. Pikachu, as well, has a very effective Upward Smash, and the Ice Climbers have been rated as some of the most powerful characters in the game. So, given all of this, this Tier Listing is also broken in terms of Power evaluations. If there was a comprehensive, perfect Tier Listing, which gave full consideration to every characters' Strengths and Speeds, it would look like this: [b][size=1]--Smash Tier--[/size][/b] [b][size=1]Shiek Fox Marth Falco Peach Captain Falcon Samus Jigglypuff Gannondorf Mario Dr. Mario Luigi Link Pikachu Ice Climbers Roy Zelda Young Link Yoshi Ness Donkey Kong Kirby G&W Mewtwo Bowser Pichu[/size][/b] [b][size=1]------[/size][/b] [size=1][/size] [size=1]Notice that there are no Tier Levels, and the order of this list does not reflect a better or worse character.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Des: Whether or not you have a similar playing style to the Marths in question with your Roy is irrelevant. It's not the playing style that matters, it's its effectiveness. The tiers are meant to indicate that Marth is a more effective character when played as skillfully as Roy (rather, when played very skillfully when a character is pushed as far as he/she can go). If you want to say that Roy is no less effective, rise to Ken Marth's skill level and beat him. I cannot myself of course, and I won't based simply on "theory" try and contradict the tiers as they currently stand (by the way, they do get updated). To me, the tiers are an indication of how characters stand when played at their strongest (by today's standards). Because I don't have the skills to play any character at his/her strongest, my personal "tiers" will differ, as will yours no doubt. But to discount this tier list because of that seems to me a bit naive. Also, your comparison of Marth/Roy to Fox/Falco is just plain bad. The speed difference (and power difference) between Marth and Roy is much larger than that between Fox and Falco. Roy is so much slower in fact that he requires a different playing style to be at maximum effectiveness as compared to Marth (from what I have seen and from using the characters myself). Fox and Falco do not differ to such an extent. The biggest difference that I can tell you (because I don't use them, and so I don't know some of the more advanced techniques the two pilots use which may matter as well) is the way the blaster is used. Fox just laser spams while on the ground, as the opponent is flying through the air. Falco does short-hop-fast-fall midair shots (or ought to in any case). From personal experience, my games against Fox and Falco are very similar in terms of difficulty. About as tough as Marth used to be (I've played so many Marths at this point that I do better against him than some other characters). Roy has always been much easier for Link because the speed difference is so drastic. Roy is not really faster than Link, losing one of the large advantages Marth has. Petey: What utterly empty logic. Do you seriously think that the tiers are a listing of the characters from fastest to slowest? Or from most powerful (in terms of damage-dealing moves) to least powerful? Obviously it isn't. How ridiculous to try and debase the tier list by pretending that speed and power are the only stats by which characters can be ranked. As I have stated, and as you should have found had you looked fore more that 5 minutes at even just the thread I linked you to, the Tier list is built on a large amount of information and research, from tournament results to all aspects of a character (ground speed, power, move lag, recovery time, weight, jump height, etc.). While I personally feel that speed (by which I mean fast recovery, little move lag) is the most important of these, it should be clear to anyone with half a brain that it's not the only criterion by which characters should be compared. Your baseless and ignorant stance of there being no way to determine which character is better than another or which character is better than most forces a determined disbelief that any sorts of statistics and resulting categorization regarding Smash mean anything. That disbelief simply betrays your apparent inexperience at the game. I want you to think about this, because it's important to realize. Equally skilled players do on occasion play against each other (yes folks it's true). In fact sometimes players that are both so skilled as to not "outplay" each other meet. (There's no overwhelming opinion that either Isai or Ken or Azen or Chillin is better than the other three, for instance, and they do play each other). This is when character advantages become apparent. You can choose to ignore them, but that's all you'd be doing. The best players in the world play to win, and there's a reason that they use the top-tier characters (Azen = Sheik, Ken=Marth, ...Chillin=Fox I think...). Anyway, I'm dropping the subject of tiers. I'd never waste time arguing with a white belt about specifics of Taekwondo, and I likewise don't see any reason to continue this discussion with you any further. Moving on, I want to ask everyone the following question: When you play multiplayer with your friends, which items do you favor (as far as item switch setup goes)? Do you more often than not just use all items but the cheapest ones? (No hammer, no heart container, etc.) Or do you play "all shells"? Or "all pokeballs"? Or do you play with no items at all? I usually play with no items at all. It makes for far more heated one-on-one matches. It also preps me more for tournament play should I ever find the time for it, since most tournaments play with items on low, very low, or off. My favorite matchup is Link (me) vs. Marth on Final Destination with no items. It's just a clean swordfight. When I DO use items, I tend to do "fun games," such as raising the damage to 2.0 and playing all Bob-ombs and proxy mines or something. It's a nice break from more competitive play, and usually we get some funny moments out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 I would still like some clarification here, if you don't mind. How long have you been registered at Smashboards? You speak as though you've been there for years, but you still haven't mentioned exactly how long you've been there, and I'm just curious. I'm curious because I ran a search through their Member Database and found your profile: [url="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=14783"]http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=14783[/url] You registered there in June of 2004, and haven't posted. Why haven't you posted? It just seems odd to me that you have such a love for Melee, a dedication to it to the point that you get so vocal about it when discussing any aspect of it, and even with all of this, you don't even post once on Smashboards? Why? You obviously don't have anything to lose there, because you're so knowledgeable about everything Smash-related, so why not get involved in the discussions there? You obviously have things to contribute to those discussions and threads, right? And, I look at the date of this thread we're participating in right now, 8/3/04, and notice your first post back (8/8/04) was in this Melee thread. Am I just not understanding things here, or is [b]two months[/b] all one needs to spend at Smashboards to become the official authority on everything Smash-related, even when other members like [url="http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=10179"]M3D, a Moderator[/url], have been there for much longer than that, years even, and yet you and they possess the exact same knowledge, with the exact same depth? Such an out-spoken and overly-opinionated guy like you, keeping your mouth totally shut on a messageboard about Smash Melee? I'm rather perplexed. Secondly, why didn't you mention anything regarding my previous visits to Smashboards? I did have a previous reply about it, before Desbreko's. I find it odd that you didn't decimate me there, as well. Why didn't you? The fact of the matter is, I had known about Smashboards back in early 2002, and apart from a different Memberbase, it's the same thing it was back then. I would appreciate it if you would at least touch upon this, because previously, you acted like you thought I had no idea what Smashboards was. This is obviously not the case, and I think it would be a good idea to at least talk about my assessment of Smashboards, specifically, its content. I had said how I had seen the exact same things on IGN, and how Smashboards was nothing new to me, but you didn't even mention anything about that, and I would like you to, if it's not too much trouble. Also, I would appreciate it if you at least tried to keep a reasonable tone here. My replies have not insulted you at all; in fact, they have been quite mild, and my requests have been more than reasonable. [quote]As I have stated, and as you should have found had you looked fore more that 5 minutes at even just the thread I linked you to.[/quote]This is one example. Do you think that I could have commented like I did regarding Smashboards if I didn't even bother to browse that forum with any thoroughness? Likewise, do you think I would be commenting on the Tier List if I didn't browse through the entire thread you linked us to? The thread, might I add, is 30 pages of rubbish, with no semblance of coherent thought from anyone on there, except perhaps the thread starter. Further along the same lines, even the [i]thread starter[/i] of that Tier List thread left it open to debate: [quote]This is just for highly skilled players, not casual gamers. Highly skilled = played in real tournaments and doing good. The Tier List shouldn't change your mind on who to choose. Got any opinions on it? Try to list stats on what you think is wrong. Not just saying stuff like this, - "Bowser is good 'cause I use him and can beat all my friends while they use Marth/Sheik. And I can beat 3 level 9's." Stuff like that or anything close to that doesn't belong here. If someone starts to fight about it, or a mess is going on, I'll contact DarkLink, or someone would. This thread is to discuss about the Tier List, not to argue about it. If you think that someone should be lower/higher, you need to give good explanations.[/quote]I'm not entirely sure what's going on here, though I have a fairly good idea, but you're not helping yourself at all by bringing in random numbers, then refusing to link to them, refusing to even PM me with the sources, then going and insulting me because I ask you for sources, and then when I have a critical evaluation of the Tier List that you treat as the Gospel, an evaluation that does point out some rather glaring inconsistencies, you insult me even further. No matter how many points of evaluation the Tier List is based on, it is not correct, because Pichu is not the worst character in the game, and that isn't even subjective, either. [quote](ground speed, power, move lag, recovery time, weight, jump height, etc.)[/quote]Those criteria you just listed only further support the idea that Pichu is not the worst character, as his ground speed is better than 70% of the characters, his power is in the top 25%, his recovery time is average, his weight is a negative (but his positives far outweigh that), and his jump height is rather significant. This certainly improves Pichu's ranking in the Tier List. --- Speaking of Item Usage, I'm more a fan of pure Adaptation, in that I usually play with everything on, in a Very Low or Medium setting. That way, the Item drops aren't too frequent, so a one-on-one without distractions is possible, but the Item drops are frequent enough to allow a good Improvisation every now and then. It's the most balanced way to play, really. EDIT: And also, my name isn't Petey anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 I visited smashboards mostly to look up certain things Smash-related. I don't post on those boards nor do I frequent the IGN boards, and I never really did. I don't treat those boards as gospel, but I do treat any information I find on them in a reasonable manner. The first time I heard about Tiers was in a random discussion in a Direct Connect channel (not the Smash one). I mentioned the characters my Link had trouble fighting, and someone replied "hmm he knows his tiers..." (which I didn't) so I inquired about them. As for the post quality or member quality of any message board, well that is highly irrelevant, because these are not the people who made up the tiers nor did they develop SSBM. And in any case, there are so many people on Smashboards and IGN that while some are complete morons, there are enough reasonable and experienced folks on there as well. I don't think you'll really be able to "discredit" IGN's boards, not that it matters because even if you did it would change nothing about the Smash tiers or [i]their[/i] credibility. Since you want me to touch upon your having visited IGN and Smashboards and finding them the "same as usual," I will, but I'm not sure what you want me to say. Whether or not you respect these boards is largely beside the point, as is their content quality really. Even if it turned out that Smashboards was in fact run by one-legged goblins who type by cut-and-pasting words from other people's posts in other forums, Smash's better characters would still stand out and their advantages be just as apparent as ever. The tiers are simply an attempt to organize these advantages as best as possible. From my playing experience and personal research, they are more-or-less right. I'd like to ask, since you keep trying to provide Pichu as a counterexample to the supposed reliable ranking algorithm the tiers use, why [i]would[/i] he be on the bottom? Why indeed is Pichu ranked the lowest? I mean, he wins... all..those..tournaments... I found so many good players saying Pichu was their best character... or ... not. If the tiers are indeed so faulty, why do the dominant players use the characters that just so happen to be in the top tiers? Why are those the characters that win most often? Is it just coincidence? Or is this an example of the data being fit to the model rather than the other way around? You know, people looking at tiers updated in May and being like, "hmm looks like Sheik's the best let's use him-her and make those tiers look right." Pardon the sarcasm; my point is that Pichu was put on the bottom because he doesn't friggin win. Period. Research into that may point at his ridiculously low threshold, the fact that his moves deal damage to him on top of that, that he flies through the air slowly making juggling him with someone fast a piece of cake. I don't know, maybe he just plain sucks. But I can promise you one thing: when Pichu starts dominating in tournaments, he'll go up in the tiers. Or rather, if he were to start dominating (he won't). Heh, tell me, if Pichu is not one of the worst characters in the game, then who is and based on exactly what criteria? My final word on the tier list, as it has not yet sunk in. The tiers apply to really really good players. It is based on the gaming experiences of [i]those[/i] players that these tiers were created. It's only natural that they don't apply to you fully, nor to me. I don't personally know anyone good with Jigglypuff, so from my personal experience she's bottom tier. But watch some really killer player use her, and suddenly she's not looking all that bad. Same goes for Captain Falcon. He's hard as heck to really master, and I haven't been able to get him as good as the tiers make him out to be. But then again I'm not Isai. His Falcon is ridiculous, and I'm never gonna be able to play the way he does. His Falcon is a freaking work of art. (I'm throwing out here the screennames (character names rather) of the players best with these characters as far as I know.) I have come to understand the tiers as a guideline for what characters dominate in the really upper levels of Smash competition. Sure, even the best players debate Fox vs. Falco on occasion (or Mario vs. Doc), but I haven't run into a single one who discounts a character ranking altogether. And not a single one of them has tried to put Pichu anywhere near Marth or Sheik, that's for sure. Also, when a player 1000 times better than me tells me flat out that Sheik is the best, period, I don't say "no way Sheik is teh sux0rz Pichu pwns." That player probably knows what he's talking about just a tad bit more than I do. (I'm not trying to draw parallels here, I'm probably not 1000 times better than you, I'm just saying that players better than us has put together these tiers and until we get to their level we should just stfu. Those tiers won't fully apply until we reach their level, nor do we have any solid authority on the matter until then.) That's why I'm not gonna go ahead and discount the tiers as rubbish. I've tried to [i]test[/i] them, and so far I've only been able to come up with support for them as they stand (not [i]exactly[/i], but close enough). So, Siren, there's my final word on the matter. EDIT: I didn't even know I had a profile on Smashboards, lol. There have been occasions that I've wanted to post something but I didn't feel like registering. But I guess I did register one day after all. Heh. Oh well, maybe I'll post there on occasion, but probably not. Otakuboards is the only forum I really frequent anymore these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='ScirosDarkblade']I visited smashboards mostly to look up certain things Smash-related. I don't post on those boards nor do I frequent the IGN boards, and I never really did. I don't treat those boards as gospel, but I do treat any information I find on them in a reasonable manner. The first time I heard about Tiers was in a random discussion in a Direct Connect channel (not the Smash one). I mentioned the characters my Link had trouble fighting, and someone replied "hmm he knows his tiers..." (which I didn't) so I inquired about them.[/quote] You never really frequented the IGN boards? Or never really frequented Smashboards? Or both? I hardly think your replies in this thread previously have been in any "reasonable manner," quite honestly. You have been rude and insulting without any provocation other than Desi and myself simply disagreeing with the Tier System. Based upon that, and how you acted so offended that he and I were critiquing the Tiers, acted as if we were committing blasphemy, lol, I hardly think you treat the Tier system and/or Smashboards in a "reasonable manner." Again, I'm not insulting you. [QUOTE]As for the post quality or member quality of any message board, well that is highly irrelevant, because these are not the people who made up the tiers nor did they develop SSBM. And in any case, there are so many people on Smashboards and IGN that while some are complete morons, there are enough reasonable and experienced folks on there as well. I don't think you'll really be able to "discredit" IGN's boards, not that it matters because even if you did it would change nothing about the Smash tiers or [i]their[/i] credibility.[/QUOTE] And what if I told you that there were members on the IGN Melee board there who were at the top of their game in Melee, and knew the game inside and out? What if they were just as talented and knowledgeable as the majority of the members at Smashboards are? Further, what if I told you that they regularly provided a compelling and very solid argument as to why the characters are balanced, which is a direct negation of the Tier system, and certainly changes the credibility of the Smash tiers, without getting into player skill? Those members do exist. The threads are no longer there, however, as in our discussions, I wondered what the IGN boards were like, and re-visited the boards to find there was a massive cleaning of older threads. I lost a significant number of posts, as well. But there are experienced and very knowledgeable Smashers who totally disagree with the Tier system, and they can be found on the IGN boards, if one does enough searching. [QUOTE]Since you want me to touch upon your having visited IGN and Smashboards and finding them the "same as usual," I will, but I'm not sure what you want me to say. Whether or not you respect these boards is largely beside the point, as is their content quality really. Even if it turned out that Smashboards was in fact run by one-legged goblins who type by cut-and-pasting words from other people's posts in other forums, Smash's better characters would still stand out and their advantages be just as apparent as ever. [b]The tiers are simply an attempt to organize these advantages as best as possible.[/b][/QUOTE] From what you've said previously in this thread, and from the links you've provided, and what you've demanded that I go find on my own, that's not what you were saying just a day ago. Even in your previous reply, you were getting absolutely pissed at me for "debasing" (yes, you did use that word, not in that conjugation, but you did use that word) the Tier system. What did you accuse me of? I can't quite remember. Ah, yes. You accused me of having "utterly empty logic," who didn't even browse "fore [sic] more that [sic] 5 minutes at even just the thread" you linked me to, noting how "anyone with half a brain" wouldn't doubt the Tiers. Now, if you felt so casually about the Tiers, would you have used such language and displayed such a brash and mean-spirited attitude? [quote]From my playing experience and personal research, they are more-or-less right.[/quote] And from my playing experience and personal research (READ: Hands-on and In-Person, just to be specific), the Tiers are more-or-less [i]wrong[/i]. [quote]I'd like to ask, since you keep trying to provide Pichu as a counterexample to the supposed reliable ranking algorithm the tiers use, why [i]would[/i] he be on the bottom? Why indeed is Pichu ranked the lowest? I mean, he wins... all..those..tournaments... I found so many good players saying Pichu was their best character... or ... not. [b]If the tiers are indeed so faulty, why do the dominant players use the characters that just so happen to be in the top tiers?[/b] Why are those the characters that win most often? Is it just coincidence? Or is this an example of the data being fit to the model rather than the other way around? You know, people looking at tiers updated in May and being like, "hmm looks like Sheik's the best let's use him-her and make those tiers look right." Pardon the sarcasm; my point is that Pichu was put on the bottom because he doesn't friggin win. Period. Research into that may point at his ridiculously low threshold, the fact that his moves deal damage to him on top of that, that he flies through the air slowly making juggling him with someone fast a piece of cake. I don't know, maybe he just plain sucks. But I can promise you one thing: when Pichu starts dominating in tournaments, he'll go up in the tiers. Or rather, if he were to start dominating (he won't). Heh, tell me, if Pichu is not one of the worst characters in the game, then who is and based on exactly what criteria?[/quote] I've bolded your answer. Bizarrely enough, it's the chicken and the egg. Why are characters considered good? Because they are at the top of the Tier. Why are they at the top of the Tier? Because the dominant players (READ: the best in the world) play as them, boosting their win percentage up, and the dominant players play as them because they feel they are the best. Therefore, those characters, as they are played by the dominant players in the world, are placed at the top of the Tier, which strangely enough, is [i]made[/i] by the dominant players in the world. In one of your previous replies, you had mentioned something about character appearance percentages. [quote]My point is that characters in Smash are NOT balanced, and you'll find a lot of good players agree with me. Like it or not, Bowser and Game And Watch do not win anywhere near the majority of Smash tourneys. [b]Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falco do.[/b] Links I believe do ok, but that's probably because there's so many of them, heh.[/quote] Those four win because so many play as them, lol. At the last Tourney I was at, there was an abundance of Shieks, Marths, Falcos, and Foxes, and given how many there were, the probability of a Shiek, Marth, Falco, or Fox winning was exponentially increased, because there were so many. Therefore, when the majority of players [i]stop[/i] playing as those four, and [i]start[/i] playing as Pichu, or any of the non-Top Tier characters, then you will see the shift in win ratios. Until that time comes, however, and the characters are actually given a fair chance to succeed, the Tier system looks like...what was the term...stacking the deck? Not intentionally, I'm sure, but still. I'd actually use [b]Star Wars Galaxies[/b] as a comparison point here. On one server, Bloodfin, the economy and prices have become so incredibly bloated that it's damn near impossible to do anything if you don't have elite combat skills and can draw 35k missions at a time. It's a player-based economy, as well, meaning players set the price. It's become so swelled that you constantly hear people shouting, "Looking for solo group," which is a contradiction in and of itself. "Solo" and "group" just don't belong together. With the advent of advanced Doc Buffs and such, people have absolutely no need to group up for the actual hunting, able to solo creatures that are not accessible when alone. What does this have to do with Melee? Cause and effect. When Armorsmiths realized people's combat skills were getting better and better, they naturally raised their prices, because people were making more. These combat players in turn saw the price increase, and immediately started grinding more and more missions, to be able to purchase new armor. The Armorsmiths see this, and jack up the prices again, simply because they can. It's a vicious cycle, which is precisely what the Tier system is. To answer your question regarding who is the "worst" character in the game, though I really think a more proper description would be "least viable," would be Kirby. He's lightweight (incredibly lightweight), his moves do little damage (though, they do have somewhat of a knock-back, but not enough to prove threatening), and his only viable KO Smash is Forward A (if you're the underhanded type, there is a "fake" suicide kill, but that's risky, given it's only feasible on one stage). While his recovery is top-notch, you get a few good zingers on him, and he's a toasted marshmallow. [quote]My final word on the tier list, as it has not yet sunk in. The tiers apply to really really good players. It is based on the gaming experiences of [i]those[/i] players that these tiers were created. It's only natural that they don't apply to you fully, nor to me. I don't personally know anyone good with Jigglypuff, so from my personal experience she's bottom tier. But watch some really killer player use her, and suddenly she's not looking all that bad. Same goes for Captain Falcon. He's hard as heck to really master, and I haven't been able to get him as good as the tiers make him out to be. But then again I'm not Isai. His Falcon is ridiculous, and I'm never gonna be able to play the way he does. His Falcon is a freaking work of art.[/quote] My friend, Scott, is a Jigglypuff shark. Don't underestimate the balloon, because it will kill you. Quite horribly. Case in point: I was playing as Samus, and I had just gotten a Super Mushroom. I jump at Scott, taunting, "HAHAHA...BIG MUSHROOM MEANS BIG SAMUS." The next thing I know, I hear this whistle, and I'm flying off the screen where I subsequently die in a glorious explosion. Scott then turns to me, and very nonchalantly says, "And makes a bigger target." And that is the biggest problem with most of the characters in Melee. People underestimate them, Pichu included...Bowser included. Ice Climbers, [i]especially[/i]. That is my largest criticism with these so-called "Infallible" Tiers, because no matter what anyone does, player skill cannot be removed from the game. It's a variable that may wax and wane, surely, but nobody can rip it out entirely, and view the game objectively. Everyone is always going to have preferences, everyone is always going to have a predisposition going into a match, [i]including[/i] those playing as, or facing off against, "Top-Tier" characters. [QUOTE]I have come to understand the tiers as a guideline for what characters dominate in the really upper levels of Smash competition. Sure, even the best players debate Fox vs. Falco on occasion (or Mario vs. Doc), but I haven't run into a single one who discounts a character ranking altogether. And not a single one of them has tried to put Pichu anywhere near Marth or Sheik, that's for sure.[/QUOTE] And you should note that I didn't put Pichu anywhere near Marth or Sheik, except only in terms of Smashing power, which is accurate. Despite his small size, that little rodent packs one hell of a whallop, and that one hell of a whallop rivals what [i]Fox[/i] or Sheik can do with their respective Smash moves. [QUOTE]Also, when a player 1000 times better than me tells me flat out that Sheik is the best, period, I don't say "no way Sheik is teh sux0rz Pichu pwns." That player probably knows what he's talking about just a tad bit more than I do. (I'm not trying to draw parallels here, I'm probably not 1000 times better than you, I'm just saying that players better than us has put together these tiers and until we get to their level we should just stfu. Those tiers won't fully apply until we reach their level, nor do we have any solid authority on the matter until then.) That's why I'm not gonna go ahead and discount the tiers as rubbish. I've tried to [i]test[/i] them, and so far I've only been able to come up with support for them as they stand (not [i]exactly[/i], but close enough).[/QUOTE] And I never said that Sheik sucks, but I am saying that Pichu isn't a horrible character. In hearing this, this entire issue then becomes a matter of accepting something we can't know about, which, when you think about it, is a horrible idea. You don't even understand what they're telling you, right? They're telling you that Sheik is the best, and because you are so impressed by them--correction: [i]intimidated[/i] by them, you bend to their will. I don't do that. I strive to question. When someone tells me something is so, I ask why, no matter who it is. [QUOTE]So, Siren, there's my final word on the matter.[/QUOTE] I'm going to hold you to that, and thank you. [quote]EDIT: I didn't even know I had a profile on Smashboards, lol. There have been occasions that I've wanted to post something but I didn't feel like registering. But I guess I did register one day after all. Heh. Oh well, maybe I'll post there on occasion, but probably not. Otakuboards is the only forum I really frequent anymore these days.[/QUOTE] [i]What?!?[/i] You didn't even know you had a profile on there? Why wouldn't you post there? What's stopping you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlawstar69 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 All this argument and discussion is good for communication... and I found it interesting to read about the tier system (or lack thereof), but... come on, it is just a game. A really fun, really good game but still... If anyone who plays this for hours and hours at home, you would assume they would get really good at it. If they were to play a casual player, somoene who doesn't own it... it is very likely that they would win. Drawing an parallel from Gundam, if the newtype or Co-Ordinator gets in any machine.. you know there'll be a good fight. I like this game, partly because it's so much fun to play the multiplayer mode. Sleeping over at a friend's house, and experienceing the moutain dew rush while playing this at 2 am in the morning with three other people is a memory to be treasured... not to mention the pleas of, "Stop kicking me in the air, !@#$." *cue for Three Stooges comedy act* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Heh, well you can go ahead and think that each character is balanced. That's fine by me. Good luck using Pichu against me though, lol. Oh, and Kirby's up-smash is also very effective, as are his throws... and his down-smash as well, in fact. I've played some tough Kirbys. He too slow and light overall, but he's far more a viable character than, say, Mewtwo. ... Anyway, if you want to talk "not viable" talk about Ice Climbers. Useability and effectiveness are two different things, but Kirby doesn't belong on the bottom of either listing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Heh, well you can go ahead and think that each character is balanced. That's fine by me. Good luck using Pichu against me though, lol.[/quote]I'm sure you're just so much better than I am that you can trounce me no matter who I play as. :rolleyes: Sciros, I think you and I would be more than a match for each other in Melee. I'm not some dumb Smash n00b that you like to think I am, and likewise, you're not some Smash god simply because you've hung around Smashboards for two months or checked out countless videos of "World-class" players playing. Also, note that in my assessment of Pichu, nowhere did I make a mention of balance, though I do believe the Tier system [i]is[/i] broken, for both the character evaluations and the analysis/answer to your "why are the top characters at the top" question, which, again, you have ignored in your response, and I'm becoming more and more disappointed in your isolated paragraph-focused responses. [quote]Oh, and Kirby's up-smash is also very effective, as are his throws... and his down-smash as well, in fact. I've played some tough Kirbys. He too slow and light overall, but he's far more a viable character than, say, Mewtwo. ... Anyway, if you want to talk "not viable" talk about Ice Climbers. Useability and effectiveness are two different things, but Kirby doesn't belong on the bottom of either listing.[/QUOTE]True, Kirby's Up/Down-Smashes are effective, but his forward throw is the Spike, which has no forward or backward motion, as Kirby simply lifts his opponent up into the air, then slams down with them. Granted, this can be used as a KO, but in casual [i]or[/i] competitive play, who in their right mind would be willing to sacrifice a life of theirs simply to get a kill? Mewtwo has a different moveset than any other character in the game. While others may have similar Smashes and so on, Mewtwo's moveset is exclusive to him. He doesn't cause much damage, apart from a fully-charged Shadow Ball or if you're lucky enough to connect a fully-charged Smash attack, but his attacks are Status changers. Confusion, for example. He doesn't cause damage as Link or Samus would. His attacks are designed to keep his opponents off-balance, and you can see this when you examine how his attacks knock people around. Some jolt them directly up, others send them in the air at a very harsh angle. His Forward Smash doesn't have the same properties of Samus' or Sheik's, because it doesn't send the opponent out very far (except at the higher damages), rather bouncing them off the ground. His Upward Smash holds the opponent there, causing damage rather quickly, then launches them directly up. Mewtwo's throws are spectacular, and can KO at lower percentages. While his Speed or durability may not be the best, he certainly makes up for it with a wickedly deranged moveset. "Mewtwo is a [i]containment[/i] fighter." I think that's the best way of putting it. And don't knock the Ice Climbers. They are deadly, and they are incredibly viable as combatants. Building on what Outlawstar has said, Melee [i]is[/i] just a game. Frankly, I don't want to become like those "World-class" players, not because I lack the skill, because I could become that good if I wanted to. No, I have no interest in achieving their "level" because I have a life. This isn't even talking about Casual versus h4rd0r3 g4m3r, either. This is talking about not letting a game rule my life. Sciros, you've read that Frame Guide on Smashboards, right? That's not commendable. That only further proves that they're spending way, way too much time with this game. EDIT: Ah ha! Now I know what I've been seeing here. All this time, I've noticed a peculiar similarity between you, your responses, and your descriptions of the so-called "Elite World-class" gamers. Jedi Council. What had first made me think that was [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=40565]this thread here[/url]. The part that caught my attention was the thread starter's second paragraph: [quote]Now I know basic advice like "practice your technical skills" but for the most part I have them all down.[/quote] Where have I heard that before? A New Hope, Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Practice your exercises." Star Wars has more bearing on this discussion than one may think or want to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 [quote name='Siren']I'm sure you're just so much better than I am that you can trounce me no matter who I play as. :rolleyes: Sciros, I think you and I would be more than a match for each other in Melee. I'm not some dumb Smash n00b that you like to think I am, and likewise, you're not some Smash god simply because you've hung around Smashboards for two months or checked out countless videos of "World-class" players playing.[/quote] No, I made it quite clear that I'm no Smash god. But I do think I'd beat you, [i]especially[/i] if you use the all-powerful Pichu, lol. [QUOTE]Also, note that in my assessment of Pichu, nowhere did I make a mention of balance, though I do believe the Tier system [i]is[/i] broken, for both the character evaluations and the analysis/answer to your "why are the top characters at the top" question, which, again, you have ignored in your response, and I'm becoming more and more disappointed in your isolated paragraph-focused responses.[/QUOTE] I said I was done talking about tiers and I meant it. You want to hold me to it, you do that. Consistently. [QUOTE]True, Kirby's Up/Down-Smashes are effective, but his forward throw is the Spike, which has no forward or backward motion, as Kirby simply lifts his opponent up into the air, then slams down with them. Granted, this can be used as a KO, but in casual [i]or[/i] competitive play, who in their right mind would be willing to sacrifice a life of theirs simply to get a kill?[/QUOTE] Silly Siren, throws are for combos. Not for KOs. Who besides Mario really KOs with throws all that much? You can KO with a follow-up to the throw, which is the reason to do it in the first place. Or to rack up damage. [QUOTE]While his Speed or durability may not be the best, he certainly makes up for it with a wickedly deranged moveset.[/QUOTE] I don't think he does. He's too easy to land combos on, and his ranged attack is too easy to avoid. Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with. [QUOTE]Building on what Outlawstar has said, Melee [i]is[/i] just a game. Frankly, I don't want to become like those "World-class" players, not because I lack the skill, because I could become that good if I wanted to. No, I have no interest in achieving their "level" because I have a life. This isn't even talking about Casual versus h4rd0r3 g4m3r, either. This is talking about not letting a game rule my life.[/QUOTE] It doesn't take that much to get a feel for character advantages. You don't have to be as good as those guys. I made a list of characters from best to worst well before I ever saw the Tier list, and it was quite close (besides Jigglypuff, Falcon, and Ganondorf's placement). As for those people, I agree that they probably play the game too much. But if I devoted ALL of my console/PC gaming time to Smash, I'd get close to their level I'd imagine. It's a question of whether you want to play Smash or some other game instead, really. It's not "letting the game rule your life." [QUOTE]Sciros, you've read that Frame Guide on Smashboards, right? That's not commendable. That only further proves that they're spending way, way too much time with this game.[/QUOTE] Nope, haven't read it and I don't plan to. [QUOTE]Jedi Council. What had first made me think that was [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=40565]this thread here[/url]. Star Wars has more bearing on this discussion than one may think or want to think.[/QUOTE] Har, did you find that thread by Googling for Isai/Ken/Azen? Oh, and Star Wars has pretty much nothing to do with this, unless you're talking about the beam sword which is totally a light saber, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 [quote name='ScirosDarkblade']I said I was done talking about tiers and I meant it. You want to hold me to it, you do that. Consistently.[/quote] You know what? I've changed my mind. I'd like for you to prove that the Tier System is not a vicious cycle, and I would also like for you to fully explain in full detail, the methods used in acquiring the various stats data on every character in Melee. [QUOTE]No, I made it quite clear that I'm no Smash god. But I do think I'd beat you, [i]especially[/i] if you use the all-powerful Pichu, lol.[/QUOTE] Like I've said before, you under-estimate Pichu, and many of the "Lower-Tier" characters. If you and I were to square off, I wouldn't be a push-over, no matter who I played as, Sciros. I can give you a run for your money. Believe it or not, I'm quite able to. [QUOTE]Silly Siren, throws are for combos. Not for KOs. Who besides Mario really KOs with throws all that much? You can KO with a follow-up to the throw, which is the reason to do it in the first place. Or to rack up damage.[/QUOTE] Considering that Mewtwo can KO with his Upward throw, Peach can KO with her Forward throw, Zelda's Reverse throw can KO, and Game And Watch's throws have KO potential, I hardly think you can say that throws are only for combos, and not KOs. [QUOTE]I don't think he does. He's too easy to land combos on, and his ranged attack is too easy to avoid. Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with.[/QUOTE] Shadow Ball is an excellent edge-guarder, and also an excellent way to deter an aerial character, given its erratic flight pattern. "Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with." Perhaps I'm just so very dense and slow, but I've re-read this sentence a few times now, and still have no idea what you were trying to say, lol. Are you saying that Mewtwo's throw is difficult to connect with? [QUOTE]It doesn't take that much to get a feel for character advantages. You don't have to be as good as those guys. I made a list of characters from best to worst well before I ever saw the Tier list, and it was quite close (besides Jigglypuff, Falcon, and Ganondorf's placement). As for those people, I agree that they probably play the game too much. But if I devoted ALL of my console/PC gaming time to Smash, I'd get close to their level I'd imagine. It's a question of whether you want to play Smash or some other game instead, really. It's not "letting the game rule your life."[/QUOTE] When someone says that they played Melee for four hours in the early morning, while they are [i]grounded by their parents[/i], I think that's letting the game have a bit too much control over their life. [QUOTE]Nope, haven't read it and I don't plan to.[/QUOTE] You should. It's a real eye-opener, but not in the sense of revealing a great truth about Melee. [quote]Har, did you find that thread by Googling for Isai/Ken/Azen? Oh, and Star Wars has pretty much nothing to do with this, unless you're talking about the beam sword which is totally a light saber, lol.[/QUOTE] Actually, no. I simply browsed through the Smashboards thread listings. Debunk my points about the SWG player economy and how its current condition is entirely relevant to the Tier system, and prove that the Elite World-class players [i]aren't[/i] some secretive group of elite warriors that you know little to none about, who set the rules and are not questioned, often implying "It is this way because it is so," and function very much like the Jedi Council, and then you can say that Star Wars has no bearing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venge Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 I never went to the site that you guys are talking about, but I have played SSBM. I have to say, some of the characters are balanced, but some are not: Bowser, DK, Ganondorf, and Jigglypuff. All the characters have their own abilities. Example: Fox may be hell of a lot faster than Bowser, but can Fox do the same amount of damage to a non damaged DK like Bowser can? Maybe, but not that likely. But, it also depends on the players SKILL. Knowing what moves to use and when to use them is the key. Using items, dodging, and using the shield helps also. Throwing moves are rather helpful. Example: Samus throws Mario away with her beam gun. She would need to charge for me B Button attack. It would give her time to charge the attack, much like Ganondorf and DK. Basically, unless you are a pro at using ALL the characters, then you are not a true pro at the game. PS: Please tell me the site. EDIT: To those who say that they have KOed someone at a set damage limit....its rather easy to do...take a Link at 55% and have Young Link do his double slash SMASH attack, which would send Link to the land for KOed losers...(sorry, bad DBZ joke)..anyways, Link might survive, but he will most likely die, especially if Young Link smacks him with a Bobomb. It all varies with skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desbreko Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 [color=#4B0082]Okay, I've spent about five or six hours playing SSBM yesterday and today, using Marth and nearly only Marth. I think I'm now as skilled with him as I am with Roy, and I also think I see where the Marth vs. Roy argument here is originating from. Like I've said, I rarely have other human players around to play against so I'm usually just up against three level 9 CPUs, and I've noticed something: I have an easier time beating the CPUs on sheer number of KOs while using Roy than I do when using Marth, but I'm better at pulling off combos while using Marth. (I.e., I can do a lot of damage with Marth, but I find it harder to actually get KOs with him than with Roy). So I think it really depends on your point of view. (Gasp! A reference to Star Wars?!) If you're fighting human players, I think Marth does have an advantage, but if you're fighting CPUs, I think Roy has the advantage. And this, in turn, has led me to another thought: The tiers aren't so much wrong as they are skewed. As has been said, the tier list was formed based off of tournament results. Now, that's all well and good for forming a list of characters that are good in tournaments, but it says little about which characters are best in other settings. And I'm not sure about this, but most tournament matches are 1 vs 1 with few to no items, aren't they? Well, I happen to mostly play 4 player free-for-all against three CPU players with items set to medium; that's a lot different, and character effectiveness is going to change accordingly. So I will admit, the tier list probably does have some credibility, but I think it also only applies to a very specific game setup. The more you change the setting, the more the tiers will become irrelevant.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 Des has it pretty much right. The tiers that everyone refers to as "the tiers" are intended to rank character effectiveness in very competitive one-on-one human play exclusively. Siren, I haven't been able to find exactly what the tiers are based on just from asking around, but I'll do some more searching later on at some point or another (if you want a large list of statistics, though, Smashboards does have a very lengthy sticky concerning some). Some have mentioned that in 4-player FFA, Link is a top-tier character, for example (implying that there are different tiers for different scenarios). Of course, the tiers are not exactly correct for everyone, because they do change as player skill goes up or down. For instance, in the realm of "casual players", I'd say Captain Falcon is at best mid-tier. He's very hard to bring to a competitive level, much harder than Marth (of course all characters are equally hard to get 100% out of). Same goes for Ganondorf and Jigglypuff. Likewise the bottom-tier characters don't seem so bad when you're not talking about world champs playing. Thanks, Des. As for that difficult-to-decipher sentence, Siren, let's tackle it one step at a time: "Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with." 1. difficult to connect with --> tough to hit people with = bad 2. aren't difficult to connect with --> not tough to hit people with = NOT bad 3. moves which aren't difficult to connect with --> moves that you can hit people with 4. he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with --> none of the above 5. besides his throw ... --> all his moves are tough to hit people with besides his throw (people of an equal or higher skill level, of course) Makes sense now? Your Star Wars economy analogy only works if you interpret the Tiers in a certain, ignorant way. So it's bad. Your likening of the guys who put the Tiers together to the Jedi Council is about as apt as likening it to "the powers that be" from Angel the TV show. People I don't know who are really good at something putting together a reference for everyone... dude it's totally like Star Wars! And Ken is Mace Windu! And Azen is Yoda! Why don't you turn off your "humanities paper auto-BS generator" for a second and live in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 [quote name='ScirosDarkblade]Des has it pretty much right. The tiers that everyone refers to as "the tiers" are intended to rank character effectiveness in very competitive one-on-one human play exclusively. Siren, I haven't been able to find exactly what the tiers are based on just from asking around, but I'll do some more searching later on at some point or another [b](if you want a large list of statistics, though, Smashboards does have a very lengthy sticky concerning some)[/b']. Some have mentioned that in 4-player FFA, Link is a top-tier character, for example (implying that there are different tiers for different scenarios).[/quote] What thread? Do you mean [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=30064]this thread[/url]? How does one collect data? How does one collect data for this stat sheet? You'll notice there are many, many numerical calculations, some involving repeating decimals, others that [i]seem[/i] like very precise measurements. Specifically, I'm talking about all of the frame numbers and their subsequent fractions/decimals, and the throw ranges. However, how precise can they be? The frames, they can be fairly precise, but the throwing distances? What are they using as a testing environment? How are they measuring the distances? This is all information that is left out. Further, [i]who[/i] is running this battery of tests? You have said again and again that theories and hypotheses are idiotic, because they are just pure speculation, without any real-world application. Those were more or less your words, albeit with some polishing. If these stats are all numerical, with no further testing in a game setting, they are purely hypothesis. However, they were tested, but by whom? [url=http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=8177]Mew2King[/url]. I find his location to be most interesting. You will notice that his location is the same as mine, "Cinnaminson, NJ." I found this rather perplexing, and checked his [url=http://hometown.aol.com/oovideogamegodoo/myhomepage/profile.html]AOL homepage[/url] that he links to in his profile. He attends my Alma Mater. Chances are, he lives within 10 minutes of me. Peculiar, isn't it? But back to the point. If these numbers weren't tested in any game environment, they are purely hypothetical. However, since Mr. Zimmerman has so graciously provided that he in fact tested all of this while he was bored, his data is tainted, because obviously, he must be a very skilled player, and as we are all aware, player skill cannot be removed from any game, [i]especially[/i] when players are playing. So, as much as we can commend Jason for his efforts, his data is skewed, simply because it was not gathered in an isolated, controlled testing environment. [quote]Of course, [b]the tiers are not exactly correct for everyone, because they do change as player skill goes up or down[/b]. For instance, in the realm of "casual players", I'd say Captain Falcon is at best mid-tier. He's very hard to bring to a competitive level, much harder than Marth (of course all characters are equally hard to get 100% out of). Same goes for Ganondorf and Jigglypuff. Likewise the bottom-tier characters don't seem so bad when you're not talking about world champs playing.[/quote] If they are not exactly correct for everyone, why did you even bother to start raving about them? You know that most OBers (excluding yourself, [i]of course[/i]) are casual players, do you not? The Tier list does not apply here, and if you are aware of that--if you were aware of that to begin with, why did you bring it up in the first place? [quote]As for that difficult-to-decipher sentence, Siren, let's tackle it one step at a time: "Besides his throw he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with." 1. difficult to connect with --> tough to hit people with = bad 2. aren't difficult to connect with --> not tough to hit people with = NOT bad 3. moves which aren't difficult to connect with --> moves that you can hit people with 4. he has no moves which aren't difficult to connect with --> none of the above 5. besides his throw ... --> all his moves are tough to hit people with besides his throw (people of an equal or higher skill level, of course) Makes sense now?[/quote] But if he's a [i]containment[/i] fighter, meaning Status changes and moves designed to keep the opponent off-balance, why would you treat him as a character that needs to connect with [i]every[/i] move? Given his moveset, he's not designed as a "in the fray get in there" type character. [quote]Your Star Wars economy analogy only works if you interpret the Tiers in a certain, ignorant way. So it's bad.[/quote] ...you have no real rebuttal to the SWG economy analogy, do you? "in a certain, ignorant way" And what is that "certain, ignorant way"? [quote]Your likening of the guys who put the Tiers together to the Jedi Council is about as apt as likening it to "the powers that be" from Angel the TV show. People I don't know who are really good at something putting together a reference for everyone... dude it's totally like Star Wars! And Ken is Mace Windu! And Azen is Yoda![/quote] So, your description of the World-class players as [quote name='Sciros']those 60 people who created the tiers are, well, nobody has been able to tell me much more than that they're killer players who have done a lot of research themselves[/quote] is in fact wrong? Are those players indeed well-known and is there a vast expanse of information about them that details their lives, backgrounds, histories, etc? If there was, then they are different than the Jedi Council. If there isn't, however, then you have yet to prove the Elite World-class players do not resemble the J.C. [quote]Why don't you turn off your "humanities paper auto-BS generator" for a second and live in the real world.[/QUOTE] Again, like I've said and requested before, that you leave the insults out of this discussion. I'm simply asking you to leave your personal bias out of this, which isn't unreasonable, when you think about it. Do you really think there's some stored-up conflict between us? There is no "us." "We" don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 [quote name='Siren]If these numbers weren't tested in any game environment, they are purely hypothetical. However, since Mr. Zimmerman has so graciously provided that he in fact tested all of this while he was bored, his data is tainted, because obviously, he must be a very skilled player, and as we are all aware, player skill cannot be removed from any game, [i]especially[/i'] when players are playing. So, as much as we can commend Jason for his efforts, his data is skewed, simply because it was not gathered in an isolated, controlled testing environment.[/quote] I don't see how this disqualifies these stats from applying to [i]very skilled[/i] players. There's no need to "remove that from the game" in this particular case. The tiers apply to highly skilled players, more specifically, playing each other one-on-one. If anything that takes player skill [i]into[/i] account. [QUOTE]If they are not exactly correct for everyone, why did you even bother to start raving about them? You know that most OBers (excluding yourself, [i]of course[/i]) are casual players, do you not? The Tier list does not apply here, and if you are aware of that--if you were aware of that to begin with, why did you bring it up in the first place?[/QUOTE] Because people were comparing characters. There's no tier list for "casual player skill" since there's no set level for that. There's a tier list for what I've mentioned above, however, which is why I brought it up. It's the only possible list by which you could compare character effectiveness [i]overall[/i]. I mean, car 0-60 times aren't tested by various 80-year-old sleepy grandmas. They're tested by professionals, and they're the only times that are legitimate to compare. [QUOTE]But if he's a [i]containment[/i] fighter, meaning Status changes and moves designed to keep the opponent off-balance, why would you treat him as a character that needs to connect with [i]every[/i] move? Given his moveset, he's not designed as a "in the fray get in there" type character. [/QUOTE] There's a big difference between "every move" and "the throw," lol. Against fast characters, Mewtwo has difficulty connecting with his attacks. [QUOTE]...you have no real rebuttal to the SWG economy analogy, do you? "in a certain, ignorant way" And what is that "certain, ignorant way"?[/QUOTE] That "certain, ignorant way" is seeing it as a "vicious cycle," as you so put it. You have no clue how the tiers are actually put together, but you've convinced yourself with your "vicious cycle" model, and then fit it to SWG. Way to go. First of all, not only is the [i]only[/i] similarity between the two situations is they're both games and one of them has a self-sustaining cycle and the other *might* have one, but it's a terribly weak one at that. Though, since tournament champs play [i]to win[/i], the characters they use aren't based off the tiers. They build the tiers and that's that. There's no cycle. Anyone who uses a character only because he/she's high on tier list won't get anywhere unless that character is indeed superior, because enough good players use characters of all sorts. [QUOTE]Are those players indeed well-known and is there a vast expanse of information about them that details their lives, backgrounds, histories, etc? If there was, then they are different than the Jedi Council. If there isn't, however, then you have yet to prove the Elite World-class players do not resemble the J.C.[/QUOTE] Har. I know who the Jedi Council are. I don't know who the MBR (or whatever) is. In fact, as I said before the "powers that be" from Angel the TV show would be no worse (and in fact better) as a parallel. Your analogy is thoughtless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueYoshi Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 [color=teal]I talked to Alex about this matter over AIM, and I'm beginning to understand his arguments against the tier system. Basically, the tier system is almost irrelevant as it stands because it's mostly based on logic and speculation. If a new breed of character won any major tourney then everyone will direct their attention towards that character, and will some how bring him/her to the top of that list. Desbreko's post makes a lot of sense regarding the tiers. It's all about the setting, mainly. You'll find that various other 2D/3D fighters will have set tier systems that are impenetrable no matter which you would look at them, and that's purely visible judging by tournament results and whatnot because of how the characters feed off eachother. For the most part, I think SSMB constantly varies, though I am an inexperienced player so my points may be vague.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I'm not sure if the tiers are based only on logic and speculation. ... Actually I'm fairly sure they aren't. I've been told by the folks that introduced me to the tiers that they are also based at least in part on tournament results (i.e. not logic and speculation). And I've mentioned that before. Also, although the tiers do fluctuate (as a result of the above, btw), they seem to stay relatively constant because no character [i]does[/i] "rise to the top." Sheik, Marth, Falco, Fox, Peach--they hold their own quite well it seems. I don't remember anyone ever talking about old versions of tiers being drastically different. As for tiers being irrelevant, well that depends on what you're talking about. If you want a way to compare characters OVERALL, doing it the way those who put together the tiers is just about all you can do. I don't see them being that illegitimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfy129 Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Well, I may not be able to write paragraph upon paragraph, But I'll add a little tidbit of my own if it's ok... =^._.^= My brother specializes in Kirby, and he's pretty good at it considering he's been playing constantly since last christmas. He doesn't play as Jigglypuff though they are a little similar in my opinion. (i.e same 'puff' power and same shape and weight) I believe he also likes to play as Mewtwo, and Link though that's about it... Personally, I play Fox, and I can't say I've mastered him either... I'm also able to do sizeable amounts of damage with Bowser. (which is quite ironic since their speed ratios are so diffrent) ...sorry for bothering you, I just have fond memories of having my butt-kicked numerous times by Kirby, and I thought I should post... =^-._-.^= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 [quote name='ScirosDarkblade]I don't see how this disqualifies these stats from applying to [i]very skilled[/i] players. There's no need to "remove that from the game" in this particular case. [b]The tiers apply to highly skilled players, more specifically, playing each other one-on-one. If anything that takes player skill [i]into[/i] account[/b'].[/quote][url="http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/index.php?fn=view_thread&t=325040&p=2"]This thread[/url], the one you linked us to, says otherwise. [QUOTE]Because people were comparing characters. There's no tier list for "casual player skill" since there's no set level for that. There's a tier list for what I've mentioned above, however, which is why I brought it up. It's the only possible list by which you could compare character effectiveness [i]overall[/i]. I mean, car 0-60 times aren't tested by various 80-year-old sleepy grandmas. They're tested by professionals, and they're the only times that are legitimate to compare.[/QUOTE]And who were those people who were comparing characters? [i]Casual[/i] players, meaning copying and pasting a skill list designed for [i]highly skilled[/i] players has no reason at all behind it, because as you've said yourself, the Tier list you copied and pasted has no bearing at all on Casual play. It doesn't matter if it's the "only possible list," because that "only possible list" doesn't even apply in this thread. I'd like some clarification here, as well. You're not comparing us casual players to "various 80-year-old sleepy grandmas," are you? [QUOTE]There's a big difference between "every move" and "the throw," lol. Against fast characters, Mewtwo has difficulty connecting with his attacks.[/QUOTE]I'd like to re-evaluate what you said, then, if you now are not talking about "every move." Here was your previous comment: [quote name='Sciros']5. besides his throw ... --> all his moves are tough to hit people with besides his throw (people of an equal or higher skill level, of course)[/quote]I do notice that you saild "all his moves are tough to hit people with," which would mean you were referring to "every move." [QUOTE]That "certain, ignorant way" is seeing it as a "vicious cycle," as you so put it. You have no clue how the tiers are actually put together,[/quote]When the Elite players simply tell you the Tier System is how it is, and there can be no question about it, and you accept it without questioning, do you have any clue how the Tiers are actually put together? I'm not insulting you, either, but you have consistently given vague answers here that sound suspiciously regurgitated. Numerous times in this thread you have told us how you don't question the Elite players, and when someone "1000 times better than you tells you that Shiek is the best," you have "no solid authority" in the matter, and accept what they tell you. I've referenced numerous threads on Smashboards, and you seem to have never even seen them, even asking me if I Googled to find one of them. How much have you actually browsed Smashboards, and then were able to understand how these Tiers were put together? [quote]but you've convinced yourself with your "vicious cycle" model, and then fit it to SWG. Way to go. First of all, not only is the [i]only[/i] similarity between the two situations is they're both games and one of them has a self-sustaining cycle and the other *might* have one, but it's a terribly weak one at that. Though, [b]since tournament champs play [i]to win[/i][/b],[/quote]What do you think the Powergamers of SWG are? They are the gamers who grind the missions; they are the Armorsmiths who constantly raise their prices, to become better than the other players around them. The Powergamers [i]play to win[/i]. This again bridges the similarity of the Tournament Champs, who oddly enough are the Elite players, correct? [quote][b]the characters they use aren't based off the tiers[/b]. They build the tiers and that's that. There's no cycle. Anyone who uses a character only because he/she's high on tier list won't get anywhere unless that character is indeed superior, because enough good players use characters of all sorts.[/QUOTE]If that's what you're saying now, how does that not contradict what you said earlier in the thread? Specifically, [quote name='Sciros previous reply]I want you to think about this, because it's important to realize. Equally skilled players do on occasion play against each other (yes folks it's true). In fact sometimes players that are both so skilled as to not "outplay" each other meet. (There's no overwhelming opinion that either Isai or Ken or Azen or Chillin is better than the other three, for instance, and they do play each other). This is when character advantages become apparent. You can choose to ignore them, but that's all you'd be doing. [b]The best players in the world play to win, and there's a reason that they use the top-tier characters[/b'] (Azen = Sheik, Ken=Marth, ...Chillin=Fox I think...).[/quote]If in your most recent reply, you're saying that the dominant players [i]don't[/i] base their character usage off the Tiers, then what are you saying by what I just quoted? [quote]Har. I know who the Jedi Council are. I don't know who the MBR (or whatever) is. In fact, as I said before the "powers that be" from Angel the TV show would be no worse (and in fact better) as a parallel. Your analogy is thoughtless.[/QUOTE]Do you realize why we know who the Jedi Council are? Because we are shown them. Put yourself in the role of a common Republic Soldier, and you won't know anything about the J.C. In Smash Melee's world, you are a common Republic Soldier. EDIT: I'd also like to mention that I had a rather long conversation with Jason Zimmerman (Mew2King) last night, over AIM. He's a good kid, a bit hyper, and a bit rambly, but I was like that at that age, too. I had asked him about how he tested those stats, and how he arrived at those numbers. The method he used was similar to hitting A then hitting Start insantly to pause the game. Now, he doesn't realize the problem in that method, simply because he hasn't taken the courses at CHS yet, specifically, TV Production. When he does, he'll understand my point a bit better. But what I was telling him was that without the proper frame counters, editing/recording machines, frame advancers, etc, getting an accurate reading with a simple manual pause was impossible. Given this, when the Elite players base their character rankings off of those stats, they are getting an inaccurate reading, and thus creating a rather broken, invalid, and very skewed Tier system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 14, 2004 Share Posted August 14, 2004 [quote name='Siren][url="http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/index.php?fn=view_thread&t=325040&p=2"]This thread[/url'], the one you linked us to, says otherwise.[/quote] It says it's only for highly skilled players but doesn't care about skill. The latter part of that means that the tiers will be right when opponents are of equal skill (as long as they're both good). In that sense, skill is taken into account. And I'm tired of having to repeat myself about this. [QUOTE]And who were those people who were comparing characters? [i]Casual[/i] players, meaning copying and pasting a skill list designed for [i]highly skilled[/i] players has no reason at all behind it, because as you've said yourself, the Tier list you copied and pasted has no bearing at all on Casual play.[/QUOTE] Casual play can be between good players. I have "felt" the tiers while playing, because I usually play 1 v 1 with no items. Even if there were no widely accepted tiers as there are, if I had to rank characters from best to worst based on my games, I'd have a similar list. I think the tier list [i]can[/i] have a bearing on casual play if the players are good enough. And we were comparing characters, which can only be legit if you look at the "best those characters can be." At least that's how I feel. [QUOTE]I'd like some clarification here, as well. You're not comparing us casual players to "various 80-year-old sleepy grandmas," are you?[/QUOTE] Well, if the tiers apply exclusively to skilled players, and you claim they don't apply to you... well you're welcome to decipher that however you want. [i]I[/i]'m saying that you can't compare characters and say which one's better when you're looking at them played by average players, because "average" can mean a lot of things [i]and[/i] it always implies that the characters aren't played to their fullest. As for the Mewtwo discussion, I said that every move he has besides his throw is difficult to connect with. Please understand my English. I don't want to discuss him any further because I don't care enough. [QUOTE]When the Elite players simply tell you the Tier System is how it is, and there can be no question about it, and you accept it without questioning, do you have any clue how the Tiers are actually put together? I'm not insulting you, either, but you have consistently given vague answers here that sound suspiciously regurgitated.[/QUOTE] Where have I said that I know exactly how the tiers are put together? Nowhere. But I don't think up some bullcrap model out of nowhere and convince myself that [i]that's[/i] the way it is. I'd suggest you not do so either. [QUOTE]I've referenced numerous threads on Smashboards, and you seem to have never even seen them, even asking me if I Googled to find one of them.[/QUOTE] Lol, you've referenced threads to discuss player "obsession" or your horrendous Star Wars analogies. You've not actually provided any relevant information of your own, so don't act like you have. [QUOTE]What do you think the Powergamers of SWG are? They are the gamers who grind the missions; they are the Armorsmiths who constantly raise their prices, to become better than the other players around them. The Powergamers [i]play to win[/i]. This again bridges the similarity of the Tournament Champs, who oddly enough are the Elite players, correct?[/QUOTE] Oh, I see. So if games have "elite players" then you can now discuss how much bearing Star Wars has on this discussion? Starcraft B-net and Warcraft B-net and Counterstrike and Unreal and Quake ALL have "elite players." Dude, Counterstrike has more bearing on this discussion than anyone may think or want to think, lol. Leave it alone. [QUOTE]If in your most recent reply, you're saying that the dominant players [i]don't[/i] base their character usage off the Tiers, then what are you saying by what I just quoted?[/QUOTE] To win, players use the characters they're BEST with, not the characters highest on the tiers. On top of that, the vast majority of players don't know about the tiers, and many that do don't give two craps about them. [QUOTE]Do you realize why we know who the Jedi Council are? Because we are shown them. Put yourself in the role of a common Republic Soldier, and you won't know anything about the J.C. In Smash Melee's world, you are a common Republic Soldier.[/QUOTE] Wrong. Nice try, though. There's no "Smash Melee" world. To make a "proper" analogy in this case, those who play Smash in the [i]real[/i] world can be likened to those who practice the ways of the Force in the SW universe. In the case of SW, those who practice the Force know who the Council are AND what their purpose is. [QUOTE] [Zimmerman's horrible frame counting story]Given this, when the Elite players base their character rankings off of those stats, they are getting an inaccurate reading, and thus creating a rather broken, invalid, and very skewed Tier system.[/QUOTE] Well, if [i]that[/i] is what the tiers are based on, then they're truly bogus. But we haven't established that they are, so that's moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 [quote name='ScirosDarkblade']It says it's only for highly skilled players but doesn't care about skill.[/quote] This is a rather significant contradiction, because when the thread starter makes a special point to say: [quote]The Tier List determines who is the best character by their stats. The higher they are, the better they are. The better chance that they have at winning someone who is lower than them. They use any stages and Low to Very Low Items. Don't worry though, it only effects highly skilled players. So casual gamers shouldn't care about them. You shouldn't let the Tier List change your characters, 'cause each person has a different style of playing. Remember though, Tier List =/ Skill. It's only stats, the player's skill doesn't play in the Tier List.[/quote] There is no player skill involved in the Tier list. However, if you'd like to continue discussing how the Tier list is designed for highly skilled players, but does not factor in player skill, then could you explain how that doesn't make the Tier list rather contradictory? If the Tier list accounts for highly skilled players, but is still described as not being affected by player skill, this needs consideration in evaluating the Tier list's merits. Don't you agree? [QUOTE]The latter part of that means that the tiers will be right when opponents are of equal skill (as long as they're both good).[/QUOTE] But are any players of equal skill? Is there ever a totally even match-up? I think not. Someone will always have an advantage. There are no equal players, even the World-class ones. No two gamers are identical; that much should be obvious, I think. [quote]In that sense, skill is taken into account.[/quote] When there are no totally, completely equal players, and just by saying "this is for highly skilled players only," shows a consideration to player skill, how can you or anyone have suggested the Tier system does not factor in player skill? [quote]And I'm tired of having to repeat myself about this.[/quote] I think you should remember that you brought up the Tier system first. You initiated the discussion point about it, and now you don't want to continue the discussion. I find that questionable, no offense. [QUOTE]Casual play can be between good players.[/quote] Likewise, Casual play can be between mediocre players, highly skilled players, etc. Likewise, Competitive play can be between mediocre players, good players, etc. Any type of play is possible with any type of player. Do you agree? [quote]I have "felt" the tiers while playing, because I usually play 1 v 1 with no items.[/quote] With whom were you playing? What characters, opponents, settings, levels, etc. [quote]Even if there were no widely accepted tiers as there are, if I had to rank characters from best to worst based on my games, I'd have a similar list. I think the tier list can have a bearing on casual play if the players are good enough.[/quote] When the players become "good enough" to have the Tier list apply to them, are they Casual players anymore? [quote]And we were comparing characters, which can only be legit if you look at the "best those characters can be." At least that's how I feel.[/QUOTE] And who is deciding on those characters' full potential? Players who have devoted their life to the game, it seems. How does using a "perfect" player's assessment of the characters in judging a Casual player's character assessment suddenly make the entire discussion legit? If anything, it introduces an element that is incredibly skewed and unrelated. [QUOTE]Well, if the tiers apply exclusively to skilled players, and you claim they don't apply to you...well you're welcome to decipher that however you want.[/QUOTE] I notice you left out "highly" there, and I assume it was for a reason. Sciros, do desist with the insults, either overt or subtle. [QUOTE]I'm saying that you can't compare characters and say which one's better when you're looking at them played by average players, because "average" can mean a lot of things and it always implies that the characters aren't played to their fullest.[/QUOTE] Are you average? Am I average? Is Desbreko average? I seriously doubt any of us are the "middle of the road" players, who are so-so at the game. If Desbreko and I were merely "average" at Melee, having "average" knowledge of the characters and so forth, would we be able to discuss the game at-length? I think not. [QUOTE]As for the Mewtwo discussion, I said that every move he has besides his throw is difficult to connect with. Please understand my English. I don't want to discuss him any further because I don't care enough.[/QUOTE] If you don't care enough to further discuss it, why did you raise the topic of Mewtwo in the first place? Again, you are desiring to stop discussing a point that you yourself began. Regarding Mewtwo, you seem to disagree with my analysis of him, and his being a Containment Fighter, let's see what Jason says. [quote][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:12 AM): (btw i forgot to vote in MBR in teh "final tier list")[/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:15 AM): (****)[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:41:23 AM): Heh.[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:31 AM): i could have changed it prolly[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:40 AM): Pichu >>>>>>>> Bowser[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:44 AM): because of speed[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:41:52 AM): cant kill if u cant even hit[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:42:00 AM): I find that Pichu is a "Better" character than many in the Bottom/Lower Tiers, honestly.[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:06 AM): yes[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:09 AM): he is[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:15 AM): that part of teh tiers in ****** up[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:39 AM): the key to not sucking with Mew2[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:42:54 AM): is his tilt attacks believe it or not, that and Wdashing[/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:00 AM): ::nods::[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:04 AM): tilt down a, and forward tilt[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:10 AM): esp. down tilt[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:16 AM): great starter move[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:31 AM): Would you agree with the assessment of Mewtwo being a Containment fighter?[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:31 AM): but takes practice[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:37 AM): ?[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:43:40 AM): containment?[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:44 AM): Yes, in that,[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:43:53 AM): most of his moves are designed to keep the enemy off-balance,[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:44:04 AM): and while they may not be uber-powerful,[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:44:15 AM): they're annoying-like[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]aestenAIM (2:44:16 AM): they are more designed to **** with the enemy's movement.[/font] [font=Arial][/font][font=Arial]OOVideoGameGodOO (2:44:20 AM): yes[/quote][/font] [font=Arial][/font] [font=Arial]Interesting that he agrees with my points regarding both Pichu and Mewtwo. He's a very respected member at Smashboards, a Moderator, in fact. Do you regard his opinion as BS, as well?[/font] [QUOTE]Where have I said that I know exactly how the tiers are put together? Nowhere. But I don't think up some bullcrap model out of nowhere and convince myself that that's the way it is. I'd suggest you not do so either.[/QUOTE] You may have not said so, but you certainly act like you do. It's unusual, because others have come to understand my analogies and criticisms, yet you hold steadfast to the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about. Why do you continue in that manner? I think it's because you think you know what you're talking about, and everyone else who disagrees with you is a total moron who has no idea how anything works. That's just my observation, but as this thread continues, that trait is becoming more and more apparent. Again, I'm not insulting you, merely providing some personal remarks that you may want to consider. [QUOTE]Lol, you've referenced threads to discuss player "obsession" or your horrendous Star Wars analogies. You've not actually provided any relevant information of your own, so don't act like you have.[/QUOTE] I've also referred numerous times to the Stat sheet in regard to faulty bases for the Tier list, but it seems you missed that. I linked to it when I was discussing [i]how[/i] the Stats were created, and asking about the methods used in acquiring those numerical figures is quite relevant, considering the Tiers are based on Stats, and that we are talking about the Tier system in this very thread. [QUOTE]Oh, I see. So if games have "elite players" then you can now discuss how much bearing Star Wars has on this discussion? Starcraft B-net and Warcraft B-net and Counterstrike and Unreal and Quake ALL have "elite players." Dude, Counterstrike has more bearing on this discussion than anyone may think or want to think, lol. Leave it alone. To win, players use the characters they're BEST with, not the characters highest on the tiers. On top of that, the vast majority of players don't know about the tiers, and many that do don't give two craps about them. Wrong. Nice try, though. There's no "Smash Melee" world. To make a "proper" analogy in this case, those who play Smash in the real world can likened to those who practice the ways of the Force in the SW universe. In the case of SW, those who practice the Force know who the Council are AND what their purpose is. Well, if that is what the tiers are based on, then they're truly bogus. But we haven't established that they are, so that's moot.[/QUOTE] In our discussions here, we have been going back and forth regarding the Tier system's construction, and the reasoning for placing particular characters higher than others. Earlier in the thread, Sciros went through a brief list of various evaluation criteria that players use to form the Tier list: [quote name='Sciros']the Tier list is built on a large amount of information and research, from tournament results to all aspects of a character (ground speed, power, move lag, recovery time, weight, jump height, etc.). [/quote] But his comments contradict those of the Tier List link he provided us with: [quote][b]The Tier List determines who is the best character by their stats[/b]. The higher they are, the better they are. The better chance that they have at winning someone who is lower than them. They use any stages and Low to Very Low Items. Don't worry though, it only effects highly skilled players. So casual gamers shouldn't care about them. You shouldn't let the Tier List change your characters, 'cause each person has a different style of playing. Remember though, Tier List =/ Skill. [b]It's only stats, the player's skill doesn't play in the Tier List[/b].[/quote] Tournament Results are certainly dependent on a player's skill level, so even if the results are compared against the Stat sheet and perhaps confirm the Stat's predictions, they are still invalid because player skill has not been factored out at all, because humans are still the ones winning the Tournaments. This leaves only numerical data as the viable criterion that the Tier List is based on. This is confirmed by m_darkdragon in [url=http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/index.php?fn=view_thread&t=325040&p=2]the Tier List thread[/url] that Sciros has personally linked us to earlier in this thread. It is made clear that STATS and stats alone determine the Tier List, but what Stats is m_darkdragon referring to? Sciros ran a search for "reputable statistics" earlier, and informed us that he was unable to find anything. Apart from Smashboards, it seems there are no other reputable stat pages. Are we to use the Stat list from Smashboards then? Since Smashboards seems to be the internet authority on Smash Melee, and seems to be a very comprehensive website, with fully detailed character evaluations, strategies and so forth, and seeing as how Mew2King's Stat Sheet is Stickied at the top of the Melee Discussion area of Smashboards, I think it is very likely that Mew2King's Stat sheet [i]is[/i] the Stats that the Tier List is based on. There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. So, Sciros, to answer your question regarding what Stats are used, yes, Mew2King's Stat sheet seems the most likely to be used, as there is nothing else on the 'net to provide any type of Stat examination. This makes the Tier List "totally bogus," and makes this discussion complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted August 15, 2004 Share Posted August 15, 2004 [QUOTE=Siren]This is a rather significant contradiction, because when the thread starter makes a special point to say: There is no player skill involved in the Tier list. However, if you'd like to continue discussing how the Tier list is designed for highly skilled players, but does not factor in player skill, then could you explain how that doesn't make the Tier list rather contradictory? If the Tier list accounts for highly skilled players, but is still described as not being affected by player skill, this needs consideration in evaluating the Tier list's merits.[/QUOTE] The tiers can be seen as taking into account skill in that it has to be high for them to apply. But relative skill between players [i]shouldn't[/i] be taken into account, because that's like taking into account relative skills of drivers in determining a faster car. So I think it's not really a contradition in the tiers so much as piss-poor wording on the thread beginner's part. [QUOTE]But are any players of equal skill? Is there ever a totally even match-up? I think not. Someone will always have an advantage. There are no equal players, even the World-class ones. No two gamers are identical; that much should be obvious, I think. When there are no totally, completely equal players, and just by saying "this is for highly skilled players only," shows a consideration to player skill, how can you or anyone have suggested the Tier system does not factor in player skill?[/QUOTE] Players can be of "close enough" skill that character advantages start to matter. If character advantages matter, then they're equal enough in this case. So in one way, the tiers factor in skill, and in one way they don't. [QUOTE]I think you should remember that you brought up the Tier system first. You initiated the discussion point about it, and now you don't want to continue the discussion. I find that questionable, no offense.[/QUOTE] It bores me. I don't care if I convince you of anything or not, frankly. You agree, whopteedo. You disagree, whopteedo. I might have initially brought the tiers up, but you were the one who outright asked me to keep the discussion going. [QUOTE]Likewise, Casual play can be between mediocre players, highly skilled players, etc. Likewise, Competitive play can be between mediocre players, good players, etc. Any type of play is possible with any type of player. Do you agree?[/QUOTE] Thanks for the heads up. I said what I said to make a point. What's yours? [QUOTE]And who is deciding on those characters' full potential? Players who have devoted their life to the game, it seems. How does using a "perfect" player's assessment of the characters in judging a Casual player's character assessment suddenly make the entire discussion legit? If anything, it introduces an element that is incredibly skewed and unrelated.[/QUOTE] A "perfect" player's assessment of characters is the most legit one you can have, because that assessment won't fluctuate and addresses something important: how good can you possibly get with [whatever character]? A "casual" player's character assessment is only legit until he or his opponents change skill levels. [QUOTE]I notice you left out "highly" there, and I assume it was for a reason. Sciros, do desist with the insults, either overt or subtle.[/QUOTE] Lol, I should have put one of your patented "again, I'm not trying to insult you" phrases at the end there. [QUOTE]If you don't care enough to further discuss it, why did you raise the topic of Mewtwo in the first place? Again, you are desiring to stop discussing a point that you yourself began. Regarding Mewtwo, you seem to disagree with my analysis of him, and his being a Containment Fighter, let's see what Jason says. [/font] [font=Arial][/font] [font=Arial]Interesting that he agrees with my points regarding both Pichu and Mewtwo. He's a very respected member at Smashboards, a Moderator, in fact. Do you regard his opinion as BS, as well?[/font][/QUOTE] Urgh. I mentioned Mewtwo as a not-too-viable character, in response to your mention of Kirby as one. I never argued with him being a "containment fighter," because that was never the issue. How he fights was irrelevant. The fact is his moves are hard to actually hit with, which makes him difficult to use well, which makes him not that viable. End of discussion. [QUOTE]You may have not said so, but you certainly act like you do. It's unusual, because others have come to understand my analogies and criticisms, yet you hold steadfast to the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about. Why do you continue in that manner? I think it's because you think you know what you're talking about, and everyone else who disagrees with you is a total moron who has no idea how anything works. That's just my observation, but as this thread continues, that trait is becoming more and more apparent.[/QUOTE] Oh, I understand your analogies and criticisms. I don't agree with them. Why is that distinction lost on you? And yes, I'm pretty much gonna hold steadfast to the idea that you don't know what you're talking about. No offense, lol. [QUOTE]So, Sciros, to answer your question regarding what Stats are used, yes, Mew2King's Stat sheet seems the most likely to be used, as there is nothing else on the 'net to provide any type of Stat examination. This makes the Tier List "totally bogus," and makes this discussion complete.[/QUOTE] Heh, I may have to concede that the stats the tiers may be based on are the stats on the Smashboards page. And not all were collected using precise enough methods, making them bad stats to base anything on. If that particular thread were right about tiers being based on just stats, then that would speak poorly of the tiers indeed. At least their origin. But the tiers aren't just based on that, OBVIOUSLY, since they're VOTED ON BY PEOPLE, one of which would've voted differently (the one you talked to). So they don't just go by stats, because then voting would be unnecessary, lol. And so, we haven't made too much headway in finding out how illegitimate their origin is. (Keep in mind even the stats they may be based on is a speculative matter at this point.) Beyond that, we've made very little headway in finding the tiers to be poor indicators of which characters dominate when handled by the best players. Almost none. So, while I must commend you Siren on your tireless efforts to research these tiers, I'm afraid there's still a lot to be done to make a solid case against their existence. I also thank you for the information you HAVE uncovered, because it's good information to know. If I may go off on a slight tangent... I think that SSBM characters are NOT balanced. I think that some can be taken to higher levels than others, as far as battle effectiveness goes. They're not the same characters for all the settings you can play, but I think that in almost no setting does it not matter who you are playing as. Having had that mindset based on my playing experiences, I had in my head a list of the characters I considered the best for 1 v 1 play for a while. Those characters were Marth, Fox, Falco, Peach, Samus, and, topping the list, Sheik. Then came the Marios, and then Link. Some of my friends argued with me about it, and some didn't care. But almost all agreed that Sheik, Marth, Falco/Fox were better than most other characters. This was way before we saw the world's best players play, and before we found out about these "Tiers." Having seen those, I basically figured that those players who created the tiers simply thought the way I did, and also had some good numbers handy to back up their claims. And I though, "heh, so the fact that some characters are better than others IS recognized. That's interesting." Now, the actual order in the tiers is not THAT important (as in, the top I think shifts sometimes, as does maybe the bottom). The top three can almost be considered equal, I'd suppose. And the bottom tiers are a toss-up because no players I've seen have really tried to make the most of them to the point that "Ken" has taken Marth, say. So I saw (and still see) the tiers as a recognition of the fact of character advantages, and a general guideline for which characters have more advantages over others. Since the tiers are based on at least TWO things (stats and personal feelings of the voters who create them) and possibly three (tournament results; some have said they're based on them but they weren't in the MBR so they're not necessarily reliable), and these things don't exactly coincide, it's natural that nothing in them is set in stone. Well, that was pretty ranty. Anyway, if you Siren happen to uncover the awful truth, that Predators came to Earth long ago and put together these tiers after having played Smash for five minutes, then we're gonna have to be responsible for spreading the word, heh. Because it's bad to swear by such tiers. But I still will always think that some characters are better than others. The tiers as they stand now match my personal listing quite well, so for me personally they won't go away altogether. It'd be interesting to compare my "tiers" (which don't quite match the "official" ones, by the way; I don't completely agree with them myself based on what I personally know) with yours, if you think you can put some together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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