Gaming Super Smash Bros. Melee

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]The tiers can be seen as taking into account skill in that it has to be high for them to apply. But relative skill between players [i]shouldn't[/i'] be taken into account, because that's like taking into account relative skills of drivers in determining a faster car. So I think it's not really a contradition in the tiers so much as piss-poor wording on the thread beginner's part.[/quote]
Then supply another thread. If you're able to find one, that is.

Regarding relative skill versus "absolute" skill, very few things in this world are absolute. Possibly the only absolute is there will always be mindless twits.

But in this case, in Melee's case, there is no end-all, be-all of player skill, because those top players you praise are not absolute, are not perfect.

This actually draws upon the idea that humans make mistakes. Somebody can be the best in the world, but they're not perfect. They will still have errs in judgment. The Olympics are a prime example of this. Those athletes are the best in the world, but something as simple as an incorrectly executed direction change in the swim competitions could mean a loss.

This applies to the "absolute" skill of the top players. They're only human, meaning they make mistakes. Just because one is highly skilled does not make them the greatest player ever. That "Marths that rock" video you linked us to proves this. At one point in the match, one Marth runs right off the edge, with absolutely no reason to from what we can see regarding the match circumstances in Final Destination.

At another point, one Marth is trying to recover jump from the right side of the arena, and to Edge-Guard, the other Marth jumps down for a stalled Charge B, then hops back up. This maneuver was wholly unnecessary and that player took a risk that he or she did not need to take. It was clear the other Marth player was not coming back, so why bother pulling off a flashy move like that? It was expending energy that did not need to be expended in that fashion, and is an example of sloppy play.

[QUOTE]Players can be of "close enough" skill that character advantages start to matter. If character advantages matter, then they're equal enough in this case. So in one way, the tiers factor in skill, and in one way they don't.[/QUOTE]
This is a huge gray area, then. The Tiers either factor in skill or they don't. They are treated as absolute, so we should treat them as absolute on one end of the spectrum, not as hovering in the middle. They factor in skill or they don't.

[QUOTE]It bores me. I don't care if I convince you of anything or not, frankly. You agree, whopteedo. You disagree, whopteedo. I might have initially brought the tiers up, but you were the one who outright asked me to keep the discussion going.[/QUOTE]
But you do care. If you didn't care at all, then you wouldn't have gotten so pissed and/or offended earlier in the thread. And if I hadn't outright asked you to keep the discussion going, we would not have arrived at the rather significant conclusion point that we did. If it were up to you, Sciros, the discussion would have stopped when you wanted it to, not when the topic was explored to the fullest extent it can be.

[QUOTE]Thanks for the heads up. I said what I said to make a point. What's yours?[/QUOTE]
Funny, I couldn't see any point in your statement. It seemed to me to simply be stating the obvious, like I did with my reply point.

[QUOTE]A "perfect" player's assessment of characters is the most legit one you can have, because that assessment won't fluctuate and addresses something important: how good can you possibly get with [whatever character]? A "casual" player's character assessment is only legit until he or his opponents change skill levels.[/QUOTE]
Allow me to clarify here. Because a Casual player is a casual player, and really only just "average" all around, they have absolutely no weight or legitimacy in a discussion held by Casual players?

[QUOTE]Lol, I should have put one of your patented "again, I'm not trying to insult you" phrases at the end there.[/QUOTE]
Sarcasm and cynicism. It's not appreciated. I include "I'm not insulting you" because you will take it as an insult and overreact if I don't. You have in the past. I'd rather you not deny that.

[QUOTE]Urgh. I mentioned Mewtwo as a not-too-viable character, in response to your mention of Kirby as one. I never argued with him being a "containment fighter," because that was never the issue. How he fights was irrelevant. The fact is his moves are hard to actually hit with, which makes him difficult to use well, which makes him not that viable. End of discussion.[/QUOTE]
He is a viable character, provided you understand why his moveset is arranged the way it is. How he fights is completely relevant, because you are basing your assessment of his viability on whether his moves are difficult to hit with, which is entirely based on how he fights.

[QUOTE]Oh, I understand your analogies and criticisms. I don't agree with them. Why is that distinction lost on you? And yes, I'm pretty much gonna hold steadfast to the idea that you don't know what you're talking about. No offense, lol.[/QUOTE]
Do you? Care to regurgitate them for me? The fact of the matter is, I do know what I'm talking about. I've played Melee for just as long as you have, and my observations do have merit, because the inconsistencies and weaknesses of the design and construction of the Tier system are apparent, provided you analyze them a bit, just like how people analyze Melee to arrive at those Tier systems.

I think it is only fair to allow that level of critical thinking to question the Tier system, because there has been a ridiculous level of "critical thinking" in determining the Tier system.

[QUOTE]Heh, I may have to concede that the stats the tiers may be based on are the stats on the Smashboards page. And not all were collected using precise enough methods, making them bad stats to base anything on. If that particular thread were right about tiers being based on just stats, then that would speak poorly of the tiers indeed. At least their origin. But the tiers aren't just based on that, [b]OBVIOUSLY, since they're VOTED ON BY PEOPLE[/b], one of which would've voted differently (the one you talked to). So they don't just go by stats, because then voting would be unnecessary, lol. And so, we haven't made too much headway in finding out how illegitimate their origin is. (Keep in mind even the stats they may be based on is a speculative matter at this point.) Beyond that, we've made very little headway in finding the tiers to be poor indicators of which characters dominate when handled by the best players. Almost none.

So, while I must commend you Siren on your tireless efforts to research these tiers, I'm afraid there's still a lot to be done to make a solid case against their existence. I also thank you for the information you HAVE uncovered, because it's good information to know.[/QUOTE]
"(Keep in mind even the stats they may be based on is a speculative matter at this point.)"

Even the Stats themselves are purely speculative, because chances are, nobody knows how to accurately measure the characters, by using proper video editing equipment and so forth. Without that, any Stat sheet we may find on the 'net is no better than Mew2King's. Keeping in mind, also, that as of today, there are no other Stat sheets on the 'net, based on our searches.

Also from what we've seen in the United States in the past 8 years, voting is by no means the ultimate test of human cognition, lol, and likewise, I think, we can't validate the Tiers because people vote on them. These people may, and are most likely, looking at the Stat Sheet to give themselves a "better" idea as to what characters seem "better" than others. Why is the voting process inaccurate?

[quote name='Sciros']Since the tiers are based on at least TWO things (stats and personal feelings of the voters who create them)[/quote]
Certainly, a voter has personal feelings about what they're voting on, but if someone votes for Kerry simply to get Bush out of office, without any regard to policies or platforms, they are certainly not basing their decision on any factual pretense, essentially catering to their own emotions. A vote is a vote, true, but a vote voted in a moment of empassioned fury (for lack of a better term, obviously) will not have any substantial value, apart from distorting the results of the poll.

If I may go off on a slight tangent...
I think that SSBM characters are NOT balanced. I think that some can be taken to higher levels than others, as far as battle effectiveness goes. They're not the same characters for all the settings you can play, but I think that in almost no setting does it not matter who you are playing as.

If you don't mind, most of the following of your post is extraneous material, providing background and history and such, and really is pure personal preference, so I'm going to pin-point particular sentences and phrases.

[QUOTE]Having seen those [Tiers], I basically figured that those players who created the tiers simply thought the way I did, and also had some good numbers handy to back up their claims.[/QUOTE]
What numbers were they using? Were they referring to character Stats? The only Stat sheet we've found in our discussion here is Mew2King's, keep in mind.

[QUOTE]Now, the actual order in the tiers is not THAT important (as in, the top I think shifts sometimes, as does maybe the bottom). The top three can almost be considered equal, I'd suppose.[/QUOTE]
When we read that Shiek is placed at the top because she is the top character, I don't think the Tier list, especially the Top-Tier, is arranged arbitrarily, even with the Tier class divisions.

[QUOTE]And the bottom tiers are a toss-up because no players I've seen have really tried to make the most of them to the point that "Ken" has taken Marth, say.[/QUOTE]
This bridges us back to my points regarding the "vicious cycle," actually, and also incorporates BlueYoshi's comments.

The Bottom Tier characters stay there because so few people play as them, and because they are at the bottom, people don't believe them to be worthwhile characters.

Similarly, Marth and Shiek have stayed at the top because the top players play as them. If the top players, who are able to dominate no matter who they play as, were to start playing as Middle-Tier, Lower-Tier, or even Bottom-Tier characters, we would see a shift in the character ratings, specifically in terms of the Tier list itself.

The Tier list is not changing significantly, and the character choices are not changing significantly. This supports the idea that the Tier system is in fact a vicious cycle.

[QUOTE]Since the tiers are based on at least TWO things (stats and personal feelings of the voters who create them) and possibly three (tournament results; some have said they're based on them but they weren't in the MBR so they're not necessarily reliable), and these things don't exactly coincide, it's natural that nothing in them is set in stone.[/QUOTE]
If those involved in the Tournaments aren't in the MBR, then those Tournament results are certainly not that reliable, provided we believe MBR to be reliable gauges of the game, of course.

This calls the Tournament results support into question, then, and combined with the Stat Sheet inaccuracy, and voter personal preference, further weakens the case that the Tiers are reliable.

[QUOTE]Well, that was pretty ranty. Anyway, if you Siren happen to uncover the awful truth, that Predators came to Earth long ago and put together these tiers after having played Smash for five minutes, then we're gonna have to be responsible for spreading the word, heh. Because it's bad to swear by such tiers.[/QUOTE]
Why am I not surprised a Predator reference snuck its way in here? lol

I think I've provided a reasonable doubt enough to start asking questions, actually. Just from our discussion here, we see there are definite questionable areas concerning the Tier list, and the Tier list's design and construction doesn't seem so air-tight anymore.

[quote]But I still will always think that some characters are better than others. The tiers as they stand now match my personal listing quite well, so for me personally they won't go away altogether. It'd be interesting to compare my "tiers" (which don't quite match the "official" ones, by the way; I don't completely agree with them myself based on what I personally know) with yours, if you think you can put some together.[/QUOTE]
It's unusual that we haven't heard anything from HAL Laboratories or Nintendo regarding Melee's character selection. There has literally been nothing from them regarding balance (or lack thereof) or general "Tiers." Anything from HAL would be official.

However, the Tier list that we've seen is not from HAL, and isn't "official." Really, the Smashboards Tier list is just another personal preference list, simply agreed upon by more players that share that preference.

It's certainly not the authority on the matter by any stretch of the imagination.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=Siren]Why am I not surprised a Predator reference snuck its way in here? lol
[/QUOTE]Ugh, have you [i]seen[/i] that crap yet? Sweet Predator-ness, bad movie.

[QUOTE]I think I've provided a reasonable doubt enough to start asking questions, actually. Just from our discussion here, we see there are definite questionable areas concerning the Tier list, and the Tier list's design and construction doesn't seem so air-tight anymore.

It's unusual that we haven't heard anything from HAL Laboratories or Nintendo regarding Melee's character selection. There has literally been nothing from them regarding balance (or lack thereof) or general "Tiers." Anything from HAL would be official.

However, the Tier list that we've seen is not from HAL, and isn't "official." Really, the Smashboards Tier list is just another personal preference list, simply agreed upon by more players that share that preference.

It's certainly not the authority on the matter by any stretch of the imagination.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it'd be nice if HAL had anything to say about it, but even if they have some nice numbers to provide, it's how those numbers matter in play that we should really care about. I'm betting HAL hasn't played their own game enough to judge that any better than other experienced players. But whatever.

Anyway, it appears that the Tiers describe, really, one thing: the character use distribution of a number of expert players.

Good job Alex.

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Yeah, it'd be nice if HAL had anything to say about it, but even if they have some nice numbers to provide, it's how those numbers matter in play that we should really care about. I'm betting HAL hasn't played their own game enough to judge that any better than other experienced players. But whatever.[/quote]They are the ones who programmed the game, though, so they would at least have more accurate statistics and such. They may have not played the game more than experienced players, but Wavedashing, while HAL programmers probably don't call it that, was programmed into the game, as was L-Canceling, Wall-Teching, etc.

So, even though HAL may not have played the game, although, I'm sure their game testers put in some major overtime for Melee's release. When you think about it, it would have been commercial suicide to release a buggy and glitchy game, especially an entry in the Smash Bros. franchise, and also a launch title for Gamecube, heh. I'm sure they put some time in, and I think it would be nice and very helpful to at least hear from them.

[QUOTE]Anyway, it appears that the Tiers describe, really, one thing: the character use distribution of a number of expert players.[/QUOTE]I think that about sums it up.

[quote]Good job Alex.[/QUOTE]Thank you much. It was enjoyable, albeit taxing on my IE browser, heh.

Actually, through the course of the discussion, specifically talking about frames, something occurred to me. It's nothing terribly significant, just a neat observation.

When we go back and play the original Smash Bros, it seems incredibly laggy and choppy. I recall last year my friends and I caused the framerate to drop significantly. Playing in Hyrule Castle, unleashing a swarm of Beedrills, which subsequently traps two players bouncing in the air, and two players using a Fire Flowe at full blast will get that game very choppy.

But it's not that the game was choppy back then, when it first came out. The framerate has stayed the same over the years. It's just that we've played games with faster and smoother framerates, and now we play SSB and notice slowdown we hadn't seen before.

This is going to be the case with Melee in about 7 years, and it's odd to picture the older versions of ourselves, if we're still into gaming, that is, firing up our ancient Gamecubes and saying, "Hey...I don't remember it running this slowly. Did Pikachu always have a frame hiccup when he did Thunder?"

It's weird.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Lol, yeah the framerate thing is a funny one to notice. It's most hilarious with Lifeforce (Gradius game for NES). There, when your ship is super-pumped and you keep firing, the game lags like nobody's business. But that makes it beatable. It's as if it's part of the intended playing tactic, lol.

Also, I finally figured out how to wavedash well. Weee! Now it's time to learn how to utilize it well... with Link I can wavedash backwards to make room for a hookshot or bomb+hookshot. I'll have to work on that stuff, though.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Yeah, I've been working on wavedashing too. I'm having a hard time doing it on command, since you're constantly being hit/knocked down at different speeds and it seems like the timing has to be really good. Sometimes, though, I just seem to do it as a natural reaction, much like any other dodge. Kind of annoying, heh.

Though I still have no idea what L-canceling is supposed to be. For all I know I may have done it before and just never heard it called by that name, like with wavedashing. Anyone care to explain it?[/color]

[Brasil]

L-canceling is essentially a Floor-Tech, it seems. The only difference is an L-cancel is performed after performing an aerial attack. Though it works with most any character, Link and Ganondorf are said to have the most noticable L-cancels. What happens is, when you perform Link's Down+A aerial, and are falling toward the ground, tap L a second before you land, and it should cut down on the recovery time. As we're all aware, Link's recovery time for that Sword spike was never all that fast, so L-canceling is certainly worthwhile in that regard.

I've done it here and there, and it really only helps with the slower recovery times, I think. A character like Pichu or even Samus doesn't have to worry about it. Bowser would certainly benefit from it, though.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]Ah. In that case, yeah, I have been using it. Ever since the original SSB, in fact, and like you said, mainly for Link's downstrike. Though I noticed pretty quickly that they made it harder to do in SSBM than it was in SSB. I could pull it off every time, without fail, in SSB for Link's downstrike, but in SSBM the required timing seems to be much more precise.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Des, you seem to be doing more Wavelanding than Wavedashing, if you're talking about being knocked back and using the move [i]then[/i]. Both moves are good. With Luigi, you can just wavedash back-and-forth across a level because his covers so much ground. It's gotta be three times the distance that, say, Captain Falcon can wavedash. I'd imagine it can most improve a Luigi's game because of that.

As for L-canceling, yeah that gives me trouble too.

[Brasil]

Yeah, there's a difference between Wavelanding and Dashing.

Wavelanding is what happens when you've just gotten launched up in the air, and are falling back toward the ground. If you hit the ground at an angle, continue tilting the joystick, and tap L as you hit the floor, you'll do a quick little roll, and the recovery time will be non-existent.

Wavedashing, however, when executed properly, there is no airborne movement. It all takes place right on the floor. I've found it's easiest to do at first with Fox in Great Bay. The top platform there is quite useful in practicing and seeing yourself Wavedash.

[naota]

I love this game!!!!!

[James]

[quote name='Deimos']I love this game!!!!![/quote]

[color=#707875]Deimos...please ensure that you take a look at our rules page and our FAQ.

Basically, it's really important that you explain [i]why[/i] you like the game and that you demonstrate some kind of depth to your posts.

Looking at other people's posts is a great indicator, actually. It'll give you an idea of the quality we are looking for here at OtakuBoards. If you have any questions, please use the Suggestions & Feedback forum. [/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Siren']Wavelanding is what happens when you've just gotten launched up in the air, and are falling back toward the ground. If you hit the ground at an angle, continue tilting the joystick, and tap L as you hit the floor, you'll do a quick little roll, and the recovery time will be non-existent.[/quote]

Not quite. The animation for wavelanding and wavedashing is almost the same. Wavelanding is not the roll, it's also a dash but you do it as you land (the way to do it is almost the same as the tech roll, but you do it not when you're hit back, actually, but just when you jump). It's most useful for jumping back onto the platform from the edge I think. The roll follows what I believe is called simply a "tech." (That ninja flip you do as you land to recover faster from a knockaway.)

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Not quite. The animation for wavelanding and wavedashing is almost the same. Wavelanding is not the roll, it's also a dash but you do it as you land (the way to do it is almost the same as the tech roll, but you do it not when you're hit back, actually, but just when you jump). It's most useful for jumping back onto the platform from the edge I think. The roll follows what I believe is called simply a "tech." (That ninja flip you do as you land to recover faster from a knockaway.)[/quote]
We're agreed that Wavedashing takes place on the ground. The character never leaves the floor, but "slides" along. I've seen it done with various characters, and have done it with Fox.

Now, Wavelanding would be a slight variation on that; instead of starting and stopping on the ground, we would start in the air, and end on the ground. Seems that it really is just a Wavedash performed from the air. The process is the same, button-wise, just a different physical foundation, in that Wavedashing is a ground maneuver, while Wavelanding is exactly why "landing" is included in the term: it's a landing technique. When you think about it, Wavelanding is still a Wavedash, just an airborne one. Makes sense.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "jumping back onto the platform from the edge," however. I can only imagine you're referring to hanging onto the edge, then hitting L (or Z in SSB) to quick recover back up onto the stage, which is considerably faster than hitting A or B, but doesn't include an attack like A or B does, very nicely giving the player the option to either Attack and move slower, or become vulnerable while moving faster. It's really quite interesting, and further shows how much HAL Devs paid attention to making Melee one of the more balanced fighting games, I think.

If you're talking about actually jumping up into the air after an Edge-Grab (I find that is easiest by simply tapping Up on the joystick), then hitting L to Waveland, isn't it simply more feasible to use that method to attack, instead of getting back onto the stage?

If recovery is the primary objective, which it should be, if you're hanging off the edge, lol, I think a Tech Roll from the edge would be much more effective.

If there is a need to attack, however, then I think the jump is better suited, because it provides a rather nice window for an attack on your opponent.

I do agree that the simple "ninja jump" after a launch into a wall/ceiling/floor, or a simple free fall into the ground, is the "tech" that everything (Wavedashing, Wavelanding, Wall-Teching, Floor-Teching, etc) is based on. When we examine the simple "tech," we see that nearly every quick recovery maneuver, whether Wavedash, Wall-Tech, etc, is built upon the "ninja jump."

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[QUOTE=Siren]I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "jumping back onto the platform from the edge," however. I can only imagine you're referring to hanging onto the edge, then hitting L (or Z in SSB) to quick recover back up onto the stage, which is considerably faster than hitting A or B, but doesn't include an attack like A or B does, very nicely giving the player the option to either Attack and move slower, or become vulnerable while moving faster.
If you're talking about actually jumping up into the air after an Edge-Grab (I find that is easiest by simply tapping Up on the joystick), then hitting L to Waveland, isn't it simply more feasible to use that method to attack, instead of getting back onto the stage?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I am talking about exactly that. I use it very rarely because most people edge-guard enough that it simply won't work and is more than anything suicidal. But occasionally it's a decent escape, and doing a waveland as you get on the ground helps distance yourself from the opponent even more. Hitting L to get onto the stage works ok too, but Marth and some others can smash you even while you're rolling, so it's also risky. The least risky is to get on with A or B I've found. Or, if you're good enough to AND you're feeling lucky, jumping into the air and doing an aerial right at the edge.

[QUOTE]If there is a need to attack, however, then I think the jump is better suited, because it provides a rather nice window for an attack on your opponent.[/QUOTE]
It depends on who you are perhaps, but with Link it's a bit too slow of a jump to really get a good attack at your opponent with. It's easier for you to get hit instead, I've found.

[QUOTE]I do agree that the simple "ninja jump" after a launch into a wall/ceiling/floor, or a simple free fall into the ground, is the "tech" that everything (Wavedashing, Wavelanding, Wall-Teching, Floor-Teching, etc) is based on. When we examine the simple "tech," we see that nearly every quick recovery maneuver, whether Wavedash, Wall-Tech, etc, is built upon the "ninja jump."[/QUOTE]
Wavedashing isn't basd on the "tech" flip at all. It's an aerial avoid, but you do it into the ground and your character slides across it as a result. It's not at all what the "tech" is, although it also involves the block button.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]But if you're already on the ground, why not just do a left/right rolling dodge instead of a wavedash? I've never really found wavedashing from the ground to be all that useful since it's both harder to pull off and seems slower to execute than a normal dodge roll. Though then again, I may just not be good enough with wavedashing yet for it to be useful for me.

Mainly when I've used wavedashing (or wavelanding, I guess), it's after getting hit up in the air a tiny bit by an attack, then doing it just as I land back on the ground to dodge away and counter with an attack of my own. In those cases, I've found it's much quicker than landing and then doing a rolling dodge.

Oh, and a technique with Link that I've found useful for getting up from hanging off an edge is to jump and immediately do the downstrike in the air, which seems somewhat hard to break through and will also bounce you off the head of the player that's edging guarding. Then combined with an L-cancel to recover quickly from doing the move, you can hit them with another attack when you land behind them while they're recovering from the downstrike. And the Spin Attack works nicely for that, since it doesn't require you to even turn around.[/color]

[Brasil]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Yeah, I am talking about exactly that. I use it very rarely because most people edge-guard enough that it simply won't work and is more than anything suicidal. But occasionally it's a decent escape, and doing a waveland as you get on the ground helps distance yourself from the opponent even more. Hitting L to get onto the stage works ok too, but Marth and some others can smash you even while you're rolling, so it's also risky. The least risky is to get on with A or B I've found. Or, if you're good enough to AND you're feeling lucky, jumping into the air and doing an aerial right at the edge.[/quote]
I've found that characters who possess a higher jump are better suited to it. Samus, Marth, Mewtwo (especially Mewtwo, surprisingly), and Ness are a few of those characters who have a floaty enough jump to make it work well.

[QUOTE]It depends on who you are perhaps, but with Link it's a bit too slow of a jump to really get a good attack at your opponent with. It's easier for you to get hit instead, I've found.[/QUOTE]
Link generally is a slower character, though. I would actually compare Link to Samus, in that they're both heavy projectile characters. In fact, we could say that apart from Young Link, Link's counterpart in Melee is Samus. Now, obviously, both Link and Samus can deal some nice damage with particular melee attacks, but both of their strengths lie in projectiles. The difference between the two seems only in terms of agility, but this isn't a major detriment/advantage to either, because it's only a difference in play styles.

[quote]Wavedashing isn't basd on the "tech" flip at all. It's an aerial avoid, but you do it into the ground and your character slides across it as a result. It's not at all what the "tech" is, although it also involves the block button.[/QUOTE]
Though, I've read of some players not even jumping to do it. They literally never leave the ground and slide across. Normally, just reading about it wouldn't be sufficient proof, but I've done it myself again using Fox in Great Bay, so, if we were to get totally technical about it, a Wavedash could be hitting the tech while you're on the ground. Obviously, this isn't the case in general, but when a player becomes proficient at the Wavedash, it does become teching on the ground, just with a forward or backward momentum.

---

Speaking of Mewtwo, if only briefly, reminded me that he has one of the more useful Mid-Air Evades in the game, actually. Granted, every Air Dodge works in relatively the same way, but Mewtwo actually disappears, and if I recall correctly, we're able to angle it moreso than other characters. There were a few times where I've launched a beam sword--[i]lightsaber[/i] at a friend of mine, which he Air-Dodged and appeared a few feet away.

It's really a nice maneuver, both from an evasion standpoint and movement standpoint.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Siren']I've found that characters who possess a higher jump are better suited to it. Samus, Marth, Mewtwo (especially Mewtwo, surprisingly), and Ness are a few of those characters who have a floaty enough jump to make it work well.[/quote] Yeah, Link's jump is relatively low and slow. He does play a bit like Samus, but Samus is a more one-on-one fighter than Link because of her faster smashes and Link more of a one-on-many because of the all-powerful up+B. But yeah, I find my playing styles with them similar.

[QUOTE]Though, I've read of some players not even jumping to do it. They literally never leave the ground and slide across. Normally, just reading about it wouldn't be sufficient proof, but I've done it myself again using Fox in Great Bay, so, if we were to get totally technical about it, a Wavedash could be hitting the tech while you're on the ground. Obviously, this isn't the case in general, but when a player becomes proficient at the Wavedash, it does become teching on the ground, just with a forward or backward momentum.[/QUOTE]
I can do it on the ground with every character (try Luigi's; it's the best by far). I can't do it mid-battle all the time, and I can't squeeze the kind of distance out of it that some really awesome players do, but yeah that's the true "wavedash" (as opposed to "waveland"). But it's not the same "tech" as the flip you do as you land to recover quickly from being knocked away. It's still an air-dodge, but you do it on the "up" rather than the "down" part of the jump (that's the best way I can think about it).

[S9per]

Ok, I had to find the thread regarding this.
Smash Bros. Melee = most kick-*** fighting game ever.
I love this game a lot.

Are there any super-pros around here?

[Shwa]

[QUOTE]Are there any super-pros around here?[/QUOTE]

It would depend on what you mean by that, if you mean people who play non-stop super Smash Brother Melee and know most of its secrets then i guess you would be right. By the looks of this topic there seems to be a number of pro's out there in the OB :D .

[S9per]

[quote name='Mage15']It would depend on what you mean by that, if you mean people who play non-stop super Smash Brother Melee and know most of its secrets then i guess you would be right. By the looks of this topic there seems to be a number of pro's out there in the OB :D .[/quote]

Yes, I mean people that play the game a lot, know everything about it, can wavedash their brains out and annihilate other players as if it were their job.

And sadly, from the looks of it, there don't really seem to be that many super-pros out here, really.

No offense to any of you guys of course, but if you saw the real super-pros out there, you'd understand (as I'm sure some of you do).

EDIT: Sheee-eeesh! I was gonna read the whole thing to get a better idea of the entire situation, but holy crap! I can't read all of that. I skimmed it over already and got the general idea, and I stick to my assessment, but wow, I didn't expect so much to be here. Haha.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='AnujSuper9']EDIT: Sheee-eeesh! I was gonna read the whole thing to get a better idea of the entire situation, but holy crap! I can't read all of that. I skimmed it over already and got the general idea, and I stick to my assessment, but wow, I didn't expect so much to be here. Haha.[/quote]
Heh, dude, you and I are as "super-pro" as it gets on here, sadly. And there isn't much to read on here, honestly. Just a bunch of garbage and arguments about tiers and so forth that you'd be best off ignoring altogether.

[S9per]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']Heh, dude, you and I are as "super-pro" as it gets on here, sadly. And there isn't much to read on here, honestly. Just a bunch of garbage and arguments about tiers and so forth that you'd be best off ignoring altogether.[/quote]

Yeah, I totally ignored it...it's too much to read.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Oh, Anuj, I realized that I can't go to the Cinncinnatti comp because I have that formal to take my g/f to on that day... the comp is next Saturday, right?

Anyway, I am currently writing my "guide to Link" for my website and its Smash Bros. subpage, and I am looking for pictures of every one of Link's moves. Does anyone know of a good place to find them, or should I just google for ever?
I suppose it would be a cool thing to take pictures of Link on my TV, but it would take way too long considering what this is for.

[S9per]

I have a bunch of Link pictures I can give you. And yeah, it's next Saturday.

I think it's gonna be pretty cool, so it sucks that you'll miss it.

[Shinmaru]

Okay, guys, let's get back on topic here. Posts should only relate to Super Smash Bros. Melee, if you have other things to discuss, then take it to PM.