Anime Fansubber Debate

[Ninjaman]

I was checking out LELOLA a while ago and I came across this rising debate about fansubbing. The following articles have been provided from the site.

[QUOTE]In 2004, there's been a growing tide of anime industry talk against fansubbing, saying that distribution of fansubs over the Internet has led to damaging piracy in Asia. At Otakon, leaders of the U.S. anime industry had some stern warnings about coming action against fansubbers. "Do you worry about how heroin dealers feel," said Matt Greenfield of ADV Films in response to a question about the way fansubbers might react to legal moves against them. "Everyone of us works with Japanese companies, and the Japanese companies are pushing us hard to crack down on the fansubbers. Within the next couple of months, you're going to see some fansubbers hit hard... it's ugly." Greenfield, who appeared with representatives from Viz, Funimation and The Right Stuff, said that fansubs have wiped out a third of the anime market worldwide, and he noted that the lost sales have come in Asia.

"Fansubbing, when it started, was self limiting. It was done through VHS and you can not make a perfect copy, but you can rip a DVD and make a perfect copy. I've talked to the Japanese producers and they say the American fans are pretty good about it. Others aren't." Fansubs downloaded from the Internet have been copied to DVD's and sold in Asia, all but eliminating Asian sales of those shows, said Greenfield. In response to that piracy, Greenfield said Japanese companies are going to start suing some fansubbers. The leading edge of that movement was seen at Anime Expo when Band filed civil suits against five businesses accused to selling bootlegs, and Greenfield said there will be more, similar suits. If Greenfield prediction is true, it could be something much like 1999's actions by Nintendo against the printers of counterfeit Pokemon merchandise, which led U.S. Customs raids in which truckloads of material were seized.

Why would Japanese companies make those moved in 2004? Because sales in the U.S. and Europe have increased, while Asian sales and profits have disappeared at the same time. Greenfield said the anime industry in the U.S. handles around $1 billion in annual sales, And the difference with these predicted legal moves is that they would be pushed by the Japanese originators of anime and not by the independent American importers. "In Japan, they're trying to set up a process where anything that goes on the Internet will be handled by the Japanese themselves. They're the rights holders, they have no restrictions at all."[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Many have argued that cultural rather than legal, technological, or economic solutions are crucial in resolving the bootlegging crisis hitting American media companies. Rather than suing their fan base, perhaps they should study how their Japanese counterparts profited from this first wave of underground circulation, seeing it as promotion rather than piracy.[/QUOTE]

The first article seems to be shooting at fansubbing while the second one seems to be taking a positive approach at it. To me, this just reminds me of downloading music. Something I doubt will suddenly disappear when action is taken. I don't watch fansubbed shows anyway, but could this lead to anything big?

Comments anyone?

[Dagger]

Both of the articles you've quoted talk about fansubbing in one breath and bootlegging in the next. Neither practice is legal, but ideally there should be strong distinctions drawn between them. I believe if anime companies are truly concerned about the market in Asia, they should go after bootleggers first and fansubbers second. After all, 90% of CDs and DVDs sold in China are bootlegs (I got that statistic from a recent piece in Time Magazine), and most of the bootlegs listed for sale on English-language websites originate in China, Taiwan or Hong Kong.

The first article puzzles me; as far as I know, a majority of bootlegs are created from DVD-rips (as opposed to fansubs), which is why they may have a dub track as well as legible subtitles. I would assume that DVD-rip bootlegs can be made to look and sound relatively legitimate, and I would also assume they'd be more cause for concern than fansubs (which generally don't profit anyone).

Putting the fear of God in people who fansub licensed series or make R1 DVD-rips available for download should also be a priority, but eliminating bootlegs ought to come first--for both American and Japanese anime companies.

~Dagger~

[densuke]

I've seen this particular piece (the first one) elsewhere. Greenfield's cryptic and threatening statements here are typical of his attitude, but a bit hard to take seriously.

First of all he seems to be accusing English-language fansubbers of ruining the Asian market for anime, which is ridiculous. Most fansubs nowadays are encoded from [b]recordings of the original TV broadcasts[/b]. These recordings are distributed in Asia through the internet. I can't see how English-language fansubs enter into this at all - they make a poor substitute for these original recordings.

Until a given show is licensed, the US companies can't do anything about its being fansubbed - that would be up to the Japanese production companies. Once it is licensed, US-based fansubbing of the show is a domestic matter between the licensee and the fansubbing group.

It's odd that someone deeply involved in the industry has gotten fansubbers confused with bootleggers. Perhaps the intention is to sow confusion amongst the wider public - I have seen fansubs referred to as "bootlegs" in mass media articles on anime.
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Having recently read the whole of the [url=http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/08/wo_jenkins081004.asp?p=1][color=blue]second article[/color][/url], I have to say that [b]the two articles are not really talking about the same thing[/b]. In fact, the paragraph quoted is rather odd when read in context.

The article discusses the evolution of English-language fansubbing, and describes the historical attitude of the Japanese industry as being encouraging. While this is informative, it does not serve as a guide to what American companies should do or even the current Japanese attitude.

This piece then mismatches Japanese fan activity (particularly dojinshi, or fangroup manga) with fansubbing. Many dojinshi could be construed as a violation of copyrighted characters but the Japanese producers don't think it is necessary or desirable to prevent them being published.

I don't think dojinshi publishing is comparable to fansubbing. Dojinshi are [i]an alternative product[/i] - buying a dojinshi based on a given title does not preclude watching or reading the original title. Fansubs are roughly equivalent to what the US licensees sell, and one can arguably be substituted for the other.

[Okita]

I don't get how the fansub community could effect the distribution of anime in Asia, almost all bootleg Asian anime are DVD ripped. Fansubbing rarely enters the equation in this scenario, most of these bootlegs are almost exact replicate of the Japanese release DVD with hastily put together subtitle in duel language. This is piracy and not fansubbing as Greenfield seems to imply. Going after the fansubbing community in this circumstance is like shooting the dog because the wolf stole the chicken...

[AzureWolf]

[quote name='Okita']I don't get how the fansub community could effect the distribution of anime in Asia, almost all bootleg Asian anime are DVD ripped. Fansubbing rarely enters the equation in this scenario, most of these bootlegs are almost exact replicate of the Japanese release DVD with hastily put together subtitle in duel language. This is piracy and not fansubbing as Greenfield seems to imply. Going after the fansubbing community in this circumstance is like shooting the dog because the wolf stole the chicken...[/quote][font=Book Antiqua][color=blue] I know from my BitTorrent-ing that a lot of my peers are from Japan. I've confirmed such analysis using whoip, so there are - without doubt - some Japanese peers in the downloading community. Since these people in Japan are downloading rather than either watching on TV or buying the show, that hurts both sales and ratings. Then again, I don't know what these people are doing, as they might do both of the things mentioned above [i]AND[/i] download for collection's sake. Nonetheless, there is potential for shows to be stolen due to fansubbers' existence.[/color][/font]
[font=Book Antiqua][color=#0000ff][/color][/font]
[font=Book Antiqua][color=#0000ff]Also, even though most, if not all, fansubbers have a private and high-quality source for their RAWs, fansubbing-derived groups have now made RAWs available to the... uh... "public fansub fans?" I mean, everyone with BitTorrent can easily acquire RAWs for any episode on Japanese TV hours after it airs. Certainly, no one in the US and many other countries have use for such untranslated material.[/color][/font]
[font=Book Antiqua][color=#0000ff][/color][/font]
[font=Book Antiqua][color=#0000ff]I would like to know where you think Asian anime bootlegs are DVD-ripped. I've never heard or seen that scenario, but I'm not in Asia, haha.[/color][/font]

[Okita]

Firstly greenfield stated that fansub are being download off the net and copied to DVD and sold in Asia, this is suppose to be eliminating sales in Asia, yet not in other western country where piracy isn't as rampant.

Just looking at the quality of their English subtitles is enough clue in that the process of Fansubbing isn't involved. Piracy and Fansubbing is two different matters, pirates will always have their source and I bet they're not neccessarily from the fansubbing community. Greenfield seems to imply that once fansubbing stops piracy will also follow.

This is BS, piracy exist before fansubbing, it will exist through other avenues without being significantly effected if fansubbing ever dries up.

[Dagger]

[quote name='AzureWolf]I mean, everyone with BitTorrent can easily acquire RAWs for any episode on Japanese TV hours after it airs. Certainly, no one in the US and many other countries have use for such untranslated material.[/color'][/font][/quote]

I'm really glad you mentioned RAWs, and I'd love to see a deeper exploration of this issue. Some native English speakers feel that downloading RAWs of licensed series (even if they can't understand spoken Japanese) is more ethical than downloading the corresponding fansubs. Does that make any sense, or is it ultimately just an attempt to feel better about their actions?

If I recall correctly, the Japanese government has attempted to limit people's access to RAWs by implementing certain controls on HDTV-compatible television sets. I have almost zero familiarity with the technical aspects of creating RAWs, and I don't know how successful such measures have been. All the same, it might be something worthy of discussion.

~Dagger~

[James]

[color=#707875]I'm not an expert on this matter, but my general thought is that I tend to equate fansubbing with ROMs and things like that.

Whether or not Americans have access to certain shows, it's true that there are some in other countries (particularly in the asia pacific region) who are downloading shows rather than buying them.

Of course there are various nuances in the debate, but basically, if you take an existing product and you download it for free without the company's permission...you are stealing. As with the MP3 debate, a lot of people try to justify the practice, citing all manner of sources.

But ultimately, I think it's reasonable that Japanese companies who develop this content want to protect it (from piracy and fansubbing, both of which are intrinsically linked, whether or not fansubbed copies are being printed onto DVD for sale -- and I think we can presume that this does happen, whether or not it makes up the bulk of pirated product).[/color]

[densuke]

As I stated, if the Japanese companies want to choke off English-language fansubbing, they are going to have to do it on their own and not by proxy (which is what Greenfield seems to be talking about). The licensees can't do anything about shows they don't have licenses for. Once the shows are licensed, the licensees are merely protecting their own potential market.

I don't see why the Japanese companies need to be invoked in this, or why Greenfield is blurring the distinction between piracy and fansubbing.

[Hevn]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][SIZE=1][B]I'm also not an expert on this matter but as someone who lives in an Asian country (Philippines) who have serious problems with piracy, I feel the need to have a say.

As much as anime licenses are concerned, most people who love anime here hate it. It is a nightmare for them because it means that they 'might' not get a hold of their once unlicensed anime. I read from a blogger's point of view (and I think it is somehow true) that it is almost just America that is benefiting from anime licenses. One reason would be waiting for an original DVD of a recently licensed anime takes a year or so to be released. Why should one go through all the hell of waiting for the first episode when fansubs are already at ep. 96? Fansubs will be hard to find once an anime is licensed and not all are rich enough to import original DVDs so what do people do? They download it, print in on DVD, and instead of letting others borrow their copies, they decide to make other copies and sell it.

Those who buy it are eventually major ***** that need money so a third or fourth copy, though extremely low in quality, is created for selling. Other scenarios involve these major assess practically buying originals for the sole purpose of copying and selling it. This is a fact. Majority of Filipinos are opportunists and they're even resourceful in getting illegal stuff.

For me, it's a simple and quiet work of piracy. Of course, it's not just animes. Any series seen on TV and can be downloaded or bought are being copied and sold. So for an anime fan living in Asia I should hate this movement but for a concerned citizen of a country, whose economy is being severely eaten by corruption and piracy, I should say I somehow support it.

You know one thing that sucks too? The government has little control over Filipino works in the internet so "legal" and "illegal" stuff doesn?t really matter. *shrug*

[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[James]

[QUOTE=densuke]As I stated, if the Japanese companies want to choke off English-language fansubbing, they are going to have to do it on their own and not by proxy (which is what Greenfield seems to be talking about). The licensees can't do anything about shows they don't have licenses for. Once the shows are licensed, the licensees are merely protecting their own potential market.

I don't see why the Japanese companies need to be invoked in this, or why Greenfield is blurring the distinction between piracy and fansubbing.[/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]I understand what you're saying about the licensees, however, we have to bear in mind that this material [i]is[/i] owned by the Japanese companies. At the very least, the intellectual property belongs to them. They therefore have the right to protect it, in whichever territory they choose.

Secondly, it's fair to say that much of this stuff is still making its way back to the asia pacific region (and potentially other markets too). Nobody can say that fansubbing has no relationship to piracy, when there is an obvious intrinsic relationship there.

Considering that much of this stuff is being subbed in America, it's fair to say that the Japanese companies have the right to a) stop the subbers and fansub distributors and b) to cut off the pirates within the region that the fansubs are selling or being physically distributed (as well as via the Internet).

The Internet presents a particular problem. You could say that Americans could download the stuff that isn't licensed and therefore, they are doing nothing wrong. Although it's true that the anime isn't licensed, it's also true that downloading that content is nonetheless illegal, as a result of intellectual property laws. So whether or not the anime is licensed is a relatively moot point, in my view. The only reason that would come into it is whether or not licensees should be involved -- but obviously they are and I assume that they are legally able to be involved. So if it's a legal operation, I don't have any particular objection to it.

It's hard to say whether or not the distinction between fansubbing and piracy is being blurred. I don't know (and I haven't seen in this thread) any truly authoritative statistics on that point. But again, it's worth mentioning that there [i]is[/i] fansubbed material in this region (and potentially other regions), which is sold via pirate software/bootleg vendors.

The distinction here would be the same as saying "I download MP3s but I don't burn them and sell them."

Sure, burning and selling MP3s en masse is a bigger problem for the companies. But let's not kid ourselves; both are illegal.[/color]

[densuke]

[QUOTE=James]I understand what you're saying about the licensees, however, we have to bear in mind that this material [i]is[/i] owned by the Japanese companies. At the very least, the intellectual property belongs to them. They therefore have the right to protect it, in whichever territory they choose.

Secondly, it's fair to say that much of this stuff is still making its way back to the asia pacific region (and potentially other markets too). Nobody can say that fansubbing has no relationship to piracy, when there is an obvious intrinsic relationship there.

Considering that much of this stuff is being subbed in America, it's fair to say that the Japanese companies have the right to a) stop the subbers and fansub distributors and b) to cut off the pirates within the region that the fansubs are selling or being physically distributed (as well as via the Internet).

The Internet presents a particular problem. You could say that Americans could download the stuff that isn't licensed and therefore, they are doing nothing wrong. Although it's true that the anime isn't licensed, it's also true that downloading that content is nonetheless illegal, as a result of intellectual property laws. So whether or not the anime is licensed is a relatively moot point, in my view. The only reason that would come into it is whether or not licensees should be involved -- but obviously they are and I assume that they are legally able to be involved. So if it's a legal operation, I don't have any particular objection to it.

It's hard to say whether or not the distinction between fansubbing and piracy is being blurred. I don't know (and I haven't seen in this thread) any truly authoritative statistics on that point. But again, it's worth mentioning that there [i]is[/i] fansubbed material in this region (and potentially other regions), which is sold via pirate software/bootleg vendors.

The distinction here would be the same as saying "I download MP3s but I don't burn them and sell them."

Sure, burning and selling MP3s en masse is a bigger problem for the companies. But let's not kid ourselves; both are illegal.[/QUOTE]I don't get where I come off sounding like I am unaware of the copyrights held by the Japanese producers, or that I wish to deny these rights to the companies. All I said was that [b]Greenfield won't be a party to anything the Japanese companies do, regardless of what he says[/b]. It's not possible, as I have explained.

And there's no precedent in which the Japanese companies have done anything against English-language fansubbers. Nothing specific was mentioned about their plans to do so either. Until they do there's nothing newsworthy in what Greenfield said.

I don't see an obvious connection between English-language fansubs and the Asian pirate market. HK pirate DVDs use English-language scripts from "in-house" translators with obvious dodgy results. I heard of exactly [b]one case[/b] where an English-language translation script used in an HK bootleg was taken from a fansub group.

Again, the major problem is the distribution of unsubbed TV recordings - and those originate in and are distributed in Japan and Asia (mostly via P-to-P programs). I don't think that Bittorrent distribution of unsubbed recordings from American websites is any more ethical or desirable than BT distribution of US DVD rips, but there are offshore players in that game too. And there's very little value in a strictly legalistic interpretation of the situation because it fails to engage any ethical considerations not based on that interpretation.

The "blurring" I am talking about was kicked off by Greenfield, who cited a case of action taken against [b]pirates[/b] as the first step in some undisclosed plan against [b]fansubbers[/b]. I think it is fair to question his motives in doing this. Even assuming that he is engaging in smear tactics is fair - there is no call for him to associate fansubs with heroin.

None of this amounts to a cut-and-dried case for telling fansubbers to pack it in. Even with the current glut of licensing companies and a concurrent rush to license the very latest titles, there are plenty of older shows being subbed which don't seem likely to be licensed. In a few rare instances these shows won't even be re-released in Japan due to intractable copyright problems. Fansubs of these shows provide valuable historical context and aesthetic enjoyment which would not otherwise be available.

[AzureWolf]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue][QUOTE=Okita]Firstly greenfield stated that fansub are being download off the net and copied to DVD and sold in Asia, this is suppose to be eliminating sales in Asia, yet not in other western country where piracy isn't as rampant.[/color][/font]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue]Just looking at the quality of their English subtitles is enough clue in that the process of Fansubbing isn't involved.[/QUOTE] I should point out that ripping refers to extraction from a DVD or CD onto a hard disk (i.e., separating the DVD/CD from what's on it, hence the term "ripping"). So, if something was DVD-ripped, that means the original was from a DVD. To prevent further confusion, Okita is actually referring to DVD [i]burning[/i].[/color][/font]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue]Anyway, now I'm on track and know what's going on. I understand how removing fansubbing groups could reduce the amount of piracy. I'm not saying fansubbers are responsible for piracy, but they certainly help to promote it. I've seen enough of fansubber logos or "if you paid for this you were ripped off" text on pirated copies to realize this fact. However, I don't know the ratio of fan-made to self-made subtitles in the world of piracy.[/color][/font]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue]I imagine this Greenfield fellow has some idea about what's going on. Maybe he has those statistics above, and they show strongly that if you cut fansubbing, piracy will suffer significantly. Again, I don't know what the ratio is, but it's possible Greenfield does. [QUOTE]I'm really glad you mentioned RAWs, and I'd love to see a deeper exploration of this issue. Some native English speakers feel that downloading RAWs of licensed series (even if they can't understand spoken Japanese) is more ethical than downloading the corresponding fansubs. Does that make any sense, or is it ultimately just an attempt to feel better about their actions?[/QUOTE] I don't understand. I would need to hear the support for this belief in order to figure it out. I have some idea of how it could be supported, but I'd rather not jump to conclusions. [QUOTE]If I recall correctly, the Japanese government has attempted to limit people's access to RAWs by implementing certain controls on HDTV-compatible television sets. I have almost zero familiarity with the technical aspects of creating RAWs, and I don't know how successful such measures have been. All the same, it might be something worthy of discussion.[/QUOTE] Heh, I'm familiar with those tricks. What happens is anything that's ripped from the TV screen will be translated into a wild array of pixels. While the reciever and/or TV are able to translate the signal properly, anything secondary (i.e., VCR, computer, etc, that's connected past the primary reciever) will only get a garbled mess. I'm not sure of the science behind the trick, but I know that it can be circumvented in many ways, and is only a minor hindrance. One such way is to make the component necessary for capturing the primary reciever, or intercepting the signal before it hits the TV. Don't quote me on any of this, since a lot of this is from personal experience.[QUOTE]...I heard of exactly [b]one case[/b] where an English-language translation script used in an HK bootleg was taken from a fansub group.[/color][/font]
[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue][/QUOTE] I don't see how this statement has any relevance, and in fact, it seems to weaken your argument. You've heard of one [i]case[/i], meaning those people doing illegal sales of fansubbed material were caught. I'm assuming that you've heard of more cases where self-made (and most likely, poorer) groups were caught. It is then comparatively safer to assume that the good, richer, and bigger pirating groups (i.e., the harder to catch ones) are using fansubs for their releases.[/color][/font]

[densuke]

[quote name='AzureWolf ']I don't see how this statement has any relevance, and in fact, it seems to weaken your argument. You've heard of one case, meaning those people doing illegal sales of fansubbed material were caught. I'm assuming that you've heard of more cases where self-made (and most likely, poorer) groups were caught. It is then comparatively safer to assume that the good, richer, and bigger pirating groups (i.e., the harder to catch ones) are using fansubs for their releases.[/quote]You seem to imply I am withholding information by only discussing one case because it suits my purposes. What I said was that I heard of exactly one case where an English-language translation script used in an HK bootleg was taken from a fansub group. That is what I mean, and I'd rather you didn't twist my words around to suit your own purposes.

Another assumption you seem to make is that pirates have to be "caught" in order to be known as pirates. The fact is that there is plenty of HK bootleg material floating around. It's easy to buy and it's obviously pirated material. And it's not like nobody has ever seen these or seen rips from them. Like I said, these bootleggers have people in-house to cook up English-language subtitles, and that's what they use.

[quote name='AzureWolf']I'm not saying fansubbers are responsible for piracy, but they certainly help to promote it. I've seen enough of fansubber logos or "if you paid for this you were ripped off" text on pirated copies to realize this fact.[/quote]How does labelling a fansub as such, ceasing distribution upon licensing etc. equate to "helping to promote" piracy?

"Helping to promote" is a far cry from "potentially facilitating," which is the argument you are apparently trying to make. Fansubbers are not offering willing assistance in anything having to do with distributing anime for profit, which is what sets them apart from pirates.

I can't see the point of damning fansubbers for the fact that other people sell their fansubs. That's a "blame the gun for the murder" argument. The key player in that scene is ebay, which refuses to do anything about people selling fansubs and bootlegs on their website even in the face of specific complaints about specific individuals.

Applying your logic it's just as easy to [b]blame ADV for "promoting" piracy[/b]! They sell DVDs of their licensed product to people who then rip them and distribute the rips. If they never licensed and sold the DVDs, there wouldn't be any rips.

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE=densuke]You seem to imply I am withholding information by only discussing one case because it suits my purposes. What I said was that I heard of exactly one case where an English-language translation script used in an HK bootleg was taken from a fansub group. That is what I mean, and I'd rather you didn't twist my words around to suit your own purposes.

Another assumption you seem to make is that pirates have to be "caught" in order to be known as pirates. The fact is that there is plenty of HK bootleg material floating around. It's easy to buy and it's obviously pirated material. And it's not like nobody has ever seen these or seen rips from them. Like I said, these bootleggers have people in-house to cook up English-language subtitles, and that's what they use.[/QUOTE][color=blue][font=Book Antiqua] I'm not implying or twisting anything: I am simply taking what you said and trying to make sense of it. If you don't wish for people to do so, you should pick your words and be more coherent.[/font][/color]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue]Let's look at my second assumption: you speak of a "case." Now, I admit I did [i]assume[/i] you knew the meaning of "case," and since we are talking about piracy, I had a slim thread of hope that you knew "case" can and is used in investigations, and these reports (i.e., [b]cases[/b]) are released to the public after they are [b]completed.[/b][/color][/font]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue]Anyway, the fact of the matter is [b]you[/b] have heard of one time where pirated material had fansubs, but that doesn't mean, in reality, only one instance has and always will exist. Here is where incomplete facts begin to show.[/color][/font]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=blue]Let's face facts, kid: you are not in Hong Kong or Japan, and all you can obtain is secondary information. It doesn't matter if that information is reliable or not because it is limited/incomplete. And living there still doesn't mean you know the going-ons of the underground world. If I were to jump to any conclusion based on what you have presented, I would say you ventured through eBay and found a lot of Chinese/english subtitle products and nothing more. But again, I'm not jumping to conclusions. [/color][/font][QUOTE]How does labelling a fansub as such, ceasing distribution upon licensing etc. equate to "helping to promote" piracy?[/QUOTE][font=Book Antiqua][color=blue] I'll [i]assume[/i] you are stating as much information as you know and enlighten you to the fact that we are talking about fansubbing in general, and not a select few. Therefore, fansubbing does not cease upon licensing. Other, more underground groups pick it up and make the show available. If you didn't know this fact, now you do. If you just like to keep them out of your definition of fansubbers, you cannot because that's what they are, and what everyone - including Greenfield - would see them as. [/color][/font][QUOTE]"Helping to promote" is a far cry from "potentially facilitating," which is the argument you are apparently trying to make. Fansubbers are not offering willing assistance in anything having to do with distributing anime for profit, which is what sets them apart from pirates.[/QUOTE][color=blue][font=Book Antiqua] Ha, now who is assuming? You even quoted the part where I said fansubbers aren't responsible for the actions of those who sell their material. Anyway, what I'm trying to say about promoting is that the solution's design is just common logic: both fansubbing and piracy are illegal. However, if you can't catch the pirates, why not cut the supply and kill the fansubs? It's a perfectly legitimate concept. [/font][/color][QUOTE]I can't see the point of damning fansubbers for the fact that other people sell their fansubs. That's a "blame the gun for the murder" argument. The key player in that scene is ebay, which refuses to do anything about people selling fansubs and bootlegs on their website even in the face of specific complaints about specific individuals.

Applying your logic it's just as easy to blame ADV for "promoting" piracy! They sell DVDs of their licensed product to people who then rip them and distribute the rips. If they never licensed and sold the DVDs, there wouldn't be any rips.[/QUOTE][color=blue][font=Book Antiqua] Let's take your gun example and make it more realistic. In this situation, the fansubbers would not be the guns but the arms suppliers. It's well-known that the government tries to stop guns before they get into the hands of those who will use them wrongfully. Prevention is [b]always[/b] better than a cure. (Whoa, and you just talked about eBay, that's pretty cool, haha. I definately should read your entire post before jumping to conclusions!)[/font][/color]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=#0000ff]You are really all over the place with what I said. So, to clarify, I'll put it simply: Greenfield has a lot of information at his disposal for the subject at hand (yes, more than you). He is taking that information and making a conclusion. If we knew what he was judging this conclusion on, we would be able to say more. Defending fansubs from something they are obviously a part of with only half an eye is foolhardy. It could be that statistics show fansubs will be used in the future for pirating purposes - or not. We just don't know.[/color][/font]

[font=Book Antiqua][color=#0000ff]EDIT: Hmm... prevention is always better than a cure. Maybe that's what Greenfield is going for?[/color][/font]

[densuke]

[quote name='AzureWolf']...Greenfield has a lot of information at his disposal for the subject at hand (yes, more than you). He is taking that information and making a conclusion. If we knew what he was judging this conclusion on, we would be able to say more...[/quote]I don't need Greenfield or anyone else to give out with nothing but conclusions and withhold facts, and I decline to assume facts based on assertions. That sort of thing led to the invasion of Iraq.

You can call me "kid" and characterize what I say as "foolhardy" and so on but I rather you tone down the [i]ad hominem[/i] stuff and speak to the argument. I made a clear distinction between fansubbing and piracy and while you don't have to honor it, not doing so is pretty much what I am accusing Greenfield of doing. And he at least should know better.

[James]

[quote name='densuke']I don't get where I come off sounding like I am unaware of the copyrights held by the Japanese producers, or that I wish to deny these rights to the companies.[/quote]

[color=#707875]You don't come off that way. I was talking about intellectual property, not copyright. The two are legally different. By illegally downloading content, you are violating intellectual property laws (which relates to this situation far more closely than copyright law).[/color]

[quote name='densuke']All I said was that Greenfield won't be a party to anything the Japanese companies do, regardless of what he says. It's not possible, as I have explained.[/quote]

[color=#707875]Yeah, that's okay...but I wasn't really arguing against that point specifically. I was simply pointing out that the distribution of fansubbed content is illegal and that the Japanese manufacturers are well within their right to stop it. Whether they do that via a licensee or via some other third party is neither here not there, so long as it's legal.[/color]

[quote name='densuke']And there's no precedent in which the Japanese companies have done anything against English-language fansubbers. Nothing specific was mentioned about their plans to do so either. Until they do there's nothing newsworthy in what Greenfield said.[/quote]

[color=#707875]Whether or not there's a precedent...again, that's kinda neither here nor there. There was no precedent for music corporations going after file swappers until it first happened within the last few years, but that didn't make it any less of a reality when the time came.

So I'm not trying to say that this is definitely going to happen or something. I'm only saying that if it does, nobody can really complain.[/color]

[quote name='densuke']I don't see an obvious connection between English-language fansubs and the Asian pirate market. HK pirate DVDs use English-language scripts from "in-house" translators with obvious dodgy results. I heard of exactly one case where an English-language translation script used in an HK bootleg was taken from a fansub group.[/quote]

[color=#707875]There could be a number of reasons why you don't see an obvious connection. Perhaps you don't live in this region (I assume you live in America?), perhaps you don't have any statistical data on it or perhaps there's some other reason. I don't know.

In this case, I can tell you that there are plenty of fansubs that make their way out there as pirate DVDs. I've seen them myself; in Australia, we get a great deal of these items as a result of our proximity and relationship to the asian distributors. It's a shame, too.

And basically, whether you've only heard of one case or not...that doesn't mean that there only ever was one case. You know? The anecdotal evidence will change depending on who you talk to, but in the end, that strays from the core issue of illegally downloading content over the Internet.[/color]

[quote name='densuke']Again, the major problem is the distribution of unsubbed TV recordings - and those originate in and are distributed in Japan and Asia (mostly via P-to-P programs). I don't think that Bittorrent distribution of unsubbed recordings from American websites is any more ethical or desirable than BT distribution of US DVD rips, but there are offshore players in that game too. And there's very little value in a strictly legalistic interpretation of the situation because it fails to engage any ethical considerations not based on that interpretation. [/quote]

[color=#707875]Why is the distribution of unsubbed stuff any worse than the distribution of subbed stuff? What you're telling me is that because one group involves "offshore players", we should therefore either turn a blind eye to it, or somehow treat it with kid gloves.

I don't think that's reasonable, from any perspective. It's like saying that if a music single comes out in America but not Australia, I have more right to download it than an American citizen does. Rubbish. I have no right to download it without paying, nor does my American counterpart.

Your last sentence hasn't been given a great deal of support, even by your own statements. What ethical considerations are there? Is it not ethical to protect one's own intellectual property?

What's [i]not[/i] ethical, is for me to sit here on my computer, add my own subs to a Japanese show and then freely distribute it over the Internet. That is both illegal and ethically wrong. MP3 distributors frequently try to use an ethics/moral argument (or some kind of Robin Hood analogy), but that only makes me feel more sympathetic to the companies who actually put their heart and souls into the product (and who aren't being paid).[/color]

[quote name='densuke']The "blurring" I am talking about was kicked off by Greenfield, who cited a case of action taken against pirates as the first step in some undisclosed plan against fansubbers. I think it is fair to question his motives in doing this. Even assuming that he is engaging in smear tactics is fair - there is no call for him to associate fansubs with heroin.[/quote]

[color=#707875]But by saying that, you're assuming that there is a clear distinction between piracy and fansubbing. I'm saying that there isn't.

Yes, there are some differences there. And as I mentioned earlier, there are some nuances and subtleties to the debate (obviously, distributing fansubs in a foreign market is probably not as damaging as selling stuff on the street in the company's own market).

[i]However[/i], I see that as a justification for illegal behavior and nothing more. Regardless where fansubbed content is produced, once it's on the Internet it can be downloaded by anyone anywhere. That reality [i]alone[/i] warrants futher attention from the companies involved.

But even if that weren't the case, there's still a reality involving illegal downloading of content. No matter what spin is put on it, it isn't legal. And if it isn't legal, is it appropriate for companies to take action if they so desire.[/color]

[quote name='densuke']None of this amounts to a cut-and-dried case for telling fansubbers to pack it in. Even with the current glut of licensing companies and a concurrent rush to license the very latest titles, there are plenty of older shows being subbed which don't seem likely to be licensed. In a few rare instances these shows won't even be re-released in Japan due to intractable copyright problems. Fansubs of these shows provide valuable historical context and aesthetic enjoyment which would not otherwise be available.[/quote]

[color=#707875]If you want to talk about older shows, that's a different story. However, there's still a clear-cut answer to that. And the comparison I'd draw would be between old anime episodes and ROMs (digital copies of old games that are no longer in circulation).

I could say that by downloading a 10 year old game that is no longer on the shelves, I'm not hurting Nintendo or whoever. And therefore it's okay.

But that's just a justification for stealing. lol I mean, again, let's be realistic here -- that's all we're talking about. We're trying to justify stealing. And there's nothing ethical about that.

You've also said that "in a few rare instances, these shows won't be re-released in Japan". Okay, a few rare instances. What about all the [i]other[/i] instances where stuff is downloaded illegally? Whichever way you look at it, it isn't legal.

And what "valuable historical context" do fansubbers provide? lol

C'mon. I understand that fansubbers are enthusiasts themselves, but let's not pretend that they're doing some kind of service to art and culture. Fundamentally, they are no different from someone distributing MP3s, copies of films or ROMs over the Internet.[/color]

[densuke]

[quote name='James']And what "valuable historical context" do fansubbers provide? lol[/quote]Haw, haw, haw... what was I thinkin'... I'm sure World Masterpiece Theater is gonna get licensed any year now...