Healthcare

[Drix D'Zanth]

I'm going to keep this brief in order to give other's an opportunity to post their opinions before I post mine. My question for today is how you percieve the nature and direction of healthcare in the United States, and in smaller part the rest of the world? The greater issue involving healthcare in the past few years concerned the rise in malpractice lawsuit. Nowadays, many americans are beginning to sway closer and closer to socialized healthcare, much like what Canada has. Though this election will be dealing more about perscription drug coverages and medicare, the possibility of Hillary taking up the 2008 ticket could threaten to change healthcare in dynamically worse or better ways (depending on your opinions) for the first time since her hubbie's instatement of HMOs.

Any thoughts?

Edit: No one has any opinion on national healthcare? -__- God save the USA...

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]I have an opinion on health care. It's near impossible to get any in most entry level jobs. Infact if you have a part time job, El help you becuase there's no friggin' way you're getting health care.

My brother has no health care at the moment because neither of his two jobs (one is full time, but since he's not a manager he's not eligible) offer health care benefits to their employees unless they meet certain requirements. So he better hope he doesn't get into a car accident or get some really serious illness because he'll be paying it off until he's 100 or so.

In New York State they have something called Child Health plus from Prefered care so low income families can afford health care for their children. While I don't like how Pataki has been running the whole government in New York (we haven't passed a state budget on time in 20 years and school children get to suffer because of politics :flaming: ) But I do think that the idea of offering low cost health care for low income families is a good idea. My best friend uses that for her daughter since neither she nor her boyfriend get health care benefits through their jobs.

You get really good health care in government jobs (ie the Military) my theory on that is that the government feels that they deserve the best and know that they don't pay enlisted military personel enough to legitimize them paying for anything. Heck, the military's health care plan is one of the few that actually covers birth control . However they don't cover contacts or glasses where's the logic in that?

I think that the government should try a bit harder to make health care plans more affordable so that small businesses and companies that employ part time workers are able to offer plans to their employees. Of course, I also think that all insurance companies that have health care should cover birth control if they cover male performance drugs.

Well, there's my opinion. I know it's not all that well thought out, but hell, at least I tried, right?[/color]

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]The less the government has to do with any civilian avenue, the better. If Canada has taught us anything, it's that socialized health care is a bad thing. Canadians pay ridiculously high taxes to obtain sub-par health care they must wait months for.

Not that the American health care system is in any way perfect, but the ,more of it that's privitized, the better.[/color][/size][/font]

[Godelsensei]

[COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New][QUOTE=DeathBug][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]The less the government has to do with any civilian avenue, the better. If Canada has taught us anything, it's that socialized health care is a bad thing. Canadians pay ridiculously high taxes to obtain sub-par health care they must wait months for.

Not that the American health care system is in any way perfect, but the ,more of it that's privitized, the better.[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE]

And all the meanwhile, there are people who have never been well off, who get sick by no fault of there own, to a point where they cannot work, and end up dying miserable, ill, and in midlife down south, because the government doesn't believe it has any responsibilities involving keeping its citizens alive. Even worse, the [i]citizens[/i] don't seem to [i]want[/i] the government to help keep them alive. Funny how that goes, neh?

If you move or are born into a place where certain (though they may be high) taxes are standard, let's face it: you'll learn to live with it. Then, if you [i]do[/i] get breast cancer after a divorce, with three kids to look after, you don't have to sell them and your house for your surgery.

My gym teacher had cancer in his neck that required surgery that would have cost him everything if he lived in the States. The only thing he ended up paying for (on top of taxes, that every one is used to) was the cable hook-up he rented.

Having to pay for life-saving health-care services is a product of a philosophy that basically states, If you're not rich, you have no right to live.

But hey, then again, I'm naive, aren't I? I mean, I've grown up in a place where gay marriage is legislated, and where our election campaigns are based on the availability of day-care, as opposed to Paul and Stephen's millitary history.

(Deathbug: comma, comma, comma...^_~)[/FONT][/COLOR]

[DeathBug]

[color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]Nice try, Godel, but emotionally-charged statements don't stand up to reality.

The assumption you are working under is that no doctors would do anything but cater to the wealthy. I can assure you that this is false, and not even under the assumption of any sort of altruism in the medical community. People will enter the medical profession to serve all types of communities and income brackets out of the simplest rule of successful business: find a need and fill it.

A doctor (In America, anyway) doesn't have to overcharge and cater to the wealthy to become wealthy himself; all he has to do is provide reasonably-priced, efficient and popular service to a community that needs it. So, he will gladly provide affordable health care to the divorced woman with breast cancer, because not only will he ensure future patronage from her, but he will also be treating three women just like her at the same time.

The great fallicy here (aside from the belief that you can only be successful by screwing over others) is that the medical community will only serve the wealthy. If the medical community ihn America only served the wealthy, there wouldn't be a medical community worth speaking of, because there simply aren't enough sick rich people to go around. To imagine a large group of professionals could sustain itself by fulfilling the needs of a niche market goes against the most basic concepts of economics.

Meanwhile, the divorced woman with breast cancer in Canada gets her free treatment, but it's months after her initial complications. The cap of medical prices placed by the government creates a shortage of good technology, so her tumor isn't caught while it's still operable. By the time the inefficient medical system finds the problem, it's far too late to do anything about it.

You see, a similar thing happened to me.

i'm a military brat, and one of the "benefits" of military service is free health care. However, because the government can only afford to put so much into the health care system, it's inherantly limited in ability. It's cool for routine checkups and physicals, but if you actually get sick, you're up a creek.

When I was a child, I got an ear infection, and was taken to the hospital for it several times. The inherant limitation of resources in the military hospitals interferred withmy diagnostic. By the time I was finally referenced to a civilian clinic, the infection was so bad that operation was necessary.

Because of a system of socialized medicine, I have a hole in the center of my ear drum that will most likely never heal. When I had a life threatening asthma attack while stationed in Germany, the doctor went so far as to move me to a German hospital, to ensure quality care.

Don't presume to preach the benefits of socialized health care to someone who's also lived under it, Godel.

Besides, do you really want the same people that run the DMV to prescibe your drugs?[/color][/size][/font]

[Drix D'Zanth]

Finally nice to see a few replies... i figured this was just going to atrophy.

Since it's late, and I just got home from work, and I've got strep; I'm going to keep this fairly breif... forgive me.

GS, the United States does have universal healthcare. If a guy walks into the ER with a splinter in his finger, we are required by law to admit him and provide him the ability to see a doctor. Am I against this? Heck no. As long as we keep it privatized, that is.

Deathbug is right, privatized healthcare is far superior to the socialized programs of other nations. Italy, Canada all have the same hospitals, the same medicines, and nearly the same acess to medical equipment that the United States does (X-Ray, MRI, etc). Why then, are approx. 1/4 of the patients in Detroit hospitals from canada paying FULL prices because they don't have American insurance? Becuase if the government can avoid paying it, it won't pay for it.

I'll give you a few examples from Italy, a westernized, modern country with socialized healthcare. If you are put on the open-heart surgery patient list; the average wait time can be well over three years. Do you know why? The governments is literally hoping that you die before the surgery date arrives. Our Italian friend had a problem with his shoulder, a minor joint lubrication problem. My dad (an orthopedic surgeon) took a quick look at it and said all he needed was a simple injection. Our friend (his name is Mimo) said that he went to the hospital and that is what they said, but the doctor said she couldn't treat him in the hospital. He would have to go to her private practice and pay a few hundred dollars for the treatment. Socialized healthcare will never be truly social.. the real treatment will be in private practices and that is far more expensive to the individual than privitized hospitals and healthcare.

Let's look at Medicare. My dad has written off $600,000 just this year for patients who cannot pay their medical co-pays. He could very well have pursued these individuals for that 20 or 50 dollar co-pay, but he didn't. He, coming from a poorer background, empathizes with them and in the spirit of generousity decides to help them out. Let's say t his person has medicare... where normal insurance pays, say , 60 dollars of a 100 dollar procedure, the person can easily avoid paying off the rest. My dad can easily and legally just credit the patient and let him walk out of his practice. Medicare will pay for 10 dollars of a 100 dollar procedure and he HAS to accept it.. not only that he cannot let the person just walk out of there with credit. The government effectively prevents my father from an act of generosity.

Socialized government screws its doctors as much as its patients.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='DeathBug][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms] Nice try, Godel, but emotionally-charged statements don't stand up to reality. [/color][/size'][/font][/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Ooh boy DB, do I have a rebuttle for you. I'm afraid Godel's right (very afraid) You see it's much easier for the wealthy to get health care than the middle and lower classes. Hell my husband was a low income child way before Govenor Pataki finally attempted to make Child Health Plus avaiable to low income families in NYS. His mom was a lazy person who didn't work just soaked up welfare (I'm not saying that everyone one welfare is lazy, I just know for a fact that she is lazy) and got medicaide. However she didn't care enough about her son to try and get him anything. So Lincoln was pretty much SOL if he got some serious illness.

Also health care is so expensive in the states that many companies only offer it to full time workers. And even then some full time workers don't even qualify for heath care benefits. My brother works full time at the Rochester Air Port, yet is denied because he's not a surpervisor.

So Godel's right you get health care if you have the money and people with more money are more likely to not only be able to afford better health care, but better treatment as well.[/color]

[QUOTE=DeathBug][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]When I was a child, I got an ear infection, and was taken to the hospital for it several times. The inherant limitation of resources in the military hospitals interferred with my diagnostic. By the time I was finally referenced to a civilian clinic, the infection was so bad that operation was necessary.

Because of a system of socialized medicine, I have a hole in the center of my ear drum that will most likely never heal. When I had a life threatening asthma attack while stationed in Germany, the doctor went so far as to move me to a German hospital, to ensure quality care.

Don't presume to preach the benefits of socialized health care to someone who's also lived under it, Godel.

Besides, do you really want the same people that run the DMV to prescibe your drugs? [/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]DeathBug, you mention you're a military brat? I'm a military spouse so I can understand why you don't care much for military health care. (especially since everyone in the military knows the joke about the Motrin)

Don't just assume that since you had a bad experiance with socialized medicine that everyone has had a bad experiance. The military is probably the best and worst example to give. They cover quite a few things completely that other insurance companies won't touch like Birth Control (probably because they don't want to give anyone leave for giving birth or being there for the birth of their child). I don't think that the military health care system should be used as a sole base of information on why socialized medicine is a bad idea.

Besides military doctors can be accomidating for the civilian spouses and their children...not to mention the fact that the health care is still valid 3 months after ETS. My friend down in Texas had to take her older daughter to an eye care specialist because the girl's vision (dammit I can't think of the word Coronary?) never developed in her left eye so the iris was just floating. Yes, my friend had to drive down to Austin to have the surgery performed, but Tricare covered it even though her husband was in the process of out processing.

Of course, there's also the whole thing with the doctor my husband had to deal with in basic who made him walk around on a fractured hip and told him all he needed was some gloryfied Dr. Scholls for his boots. But there are good and bad sides to everything.

Oh, completely off topic, but I think you should change your signature to: If Bush is re-elected we're screwed...again.[/color]

[Harry]

[QUOTE=DeathBug][color=indigo][size=1][font=comic sans ms]
You see, a similar thing happened to me.

i'm a military brat, and one of the "benefits" of military service is free health care. However, because the government can only afford to put so much into the health care system, it's inherantly limited in ability. It's cool for routine checkups and physicals, but if you actually get sick, you're up a creek.

Because of a system of socialized medicine, I have a hole in the center of my ear drum that will most likely never heal. When I had a life threatening asthma attack while stationed in Germany, the doctor went so far as to move me to a German hospital, to ensure quality care.

Don't presume to preach the benefits of socialized health care to someone who's also lived under it, Godel.

Besides, do you really want the same people that run the DMV to prescibe your drugs?[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE]
That's a nice speech about the benefits of the free health care from the military, but how would you feel if you had to pay for that kind of insurance? My father does that right now and he pays around $1000 a month for a family of four.

Our HMO was so pathetic it even lost coverage to one of the major hospitals in Houston. His only options were that, or pay an extra $400 a month for the other HMO. Privatized medicine isn't as godly as you think it is, and to have a good HMO requires you to pay a lot. I really think we need to put a stop to these malpractice law suits, they are crippling the medical industry. Or atleast get rid of the retarded trial by jury in civil suits.

[DeathBug]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Ooh boy DB, do I have a rebuttle for you. I'm afraid Godel's right (very afraid) You see it's much easier for the wealthy to get health care than the middle and lower classes. [/quote]

Amazingly, wealthy successful people can get just about any commodity easier and quicker than less wealthy people. What's your point?


[QUOTE]Hell my husband was a low income child way before Govenor Pataki finally attempted to make Child Health Plus avaiable to low income families in NYS. His mom was a lazy person who didn't work just soaked up welfare (I'm not saying that everyone one welfare is lazy, I just know for a fact that she is lazy) and got medicaide. However she didn't care enough about her son to try and get him anything. So Lincoln was pretty much SOL if he got some serious illness.[/QUOTE]

So we should use socialized health care to suppliment people like your mother-in-law?

Not that I'm saying all people in such situations are lazy, but we're raising a generation that can realistically believe that the government will bail them out of everything. That's not good any way you look at it.

[QUOTE]Also health care is so expensive in the states that many companies only offer it to full time workers. And even then some full time workers don't even qualify for heath care benefits. My brother works full time at the Rochester Air Port, yet is denied because he's not a surpervisor.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying there's no problem; I'm saying that the solution is not to socialize everything, and the "crisis" is not as horrible as some folks would have us believe. I've yet to see people dropping dead in the streets because they couldn't get their crappy free healthcare.

[QUOTE]So Godel's right you get health care if you have the money and people with more money are more likely to not only be able to afford better health care, but better treatment as well.[/QUOTE]

Again, this applies to every commodity on the market; so what?

[QUOTE]DeathBug, you mention you're a military brat? I'm a military spouse so I can understand why you don't care much for military health care. (especially since everyone in the military knows the joke about the Motrin)[/QUOTE]

Ahh, Motrin....

[QUOTE]Don't just assume that since you had a bad experiance with socialized medicine that everyone has had a bad experiance.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough; shall I make any assumptions based on the statements of Canadian organizations trying to get health care privitized again?

[QUOTE]The military is probably the best and worst example to give. They cover quite a few things completely that other insurance companies won't touch like Birth Control (probably because they don't want to give anyone leave for giving birth or being there for the birth of their child). I don't think that the military health care system should be used as a sole base of information on why socialized medicine is a bad idea.[/QUOTE]

It's the closest thing to socialized medicine that is availible on a large scale in the US, and since I have first-hand experience with it, I found it to be a good example.

[QUOTE]Besides military doctors can be accomidating for the civilian spouses and their children...not to mention the fact that the health care is still valid 3 months after ETS. My friend down in Texas had to take her older daughter to an eye care specialist because the girl's vision (dammit I can't think of the word Coronary?) never developed in her left eye so the iris was just floating. Yes, my friend had to drive down to Austin to have the surgery performed, but Tricare covered it even though her husband was in the process of out processing.[/QUOTE]

Of course you'll have the stories that point to the occassional good points of socialized health care, but I'm willing to bet that the bad stories far outweigh the good.

You can guarentee that any socialized health care system will be inferior to the free market system because there is a limit to how much the government can afford to spend, effectivly putting a cap on the commodity.

If you put a cap on the price of a commodity, you've guarenteed that you'll experience a lshortage. Remember the California energy crisis?

[QUOTE]Of course, there's also the whole thing with the doctor my husband had to deal with in basic who made him walk around on a fractured hip and told him all he needed was some gloryfied Dr. Scholls for his boots. But there are good and bad sides to everything.[/QUOTE]

Right, so let's ask the question: does the good outweigh the bad? Not at all.

[QUOTE]Oh, completely off topic, but I think you should change your signature to: If Bush is re-elected we're screwed...again.[/QUOTE]

I'll consider it if you'll consider pointing out in your signiture quote that [b]every[/b] major decision about abortion has been made by someone who won't ever be faced with that choice. ^__^

[QUOTE]Privatized medicine isn't as godly as you think it is, and to have a good HMO requires you to pay a lot. [/QUOTE]

Again, I never said that the US medical system was 'godly', but privatized health care is and always will be infinatly superior to socialized health care. Just because the system needs an overhaul doesn't mean that you should throw the baby out with the bath water.

[QUOTE]I really think we need to put a stop to these malpractice law suits, they are crippling the medical industry. Or atleast get rid of the retarded trial by jury in civil suits. [/QUOTE]

Preach it.
Today 12:42 AM

[outlawstar69]

Hmm... I'll talk about what I think on prescription drugs in the US, seeing as that's part of Healthcare in general. In the US, I believe we pay far more for prescription drugs than most other first world countries, even compared to Canada, our friendly neighbors to the north. I remember hearing how the major pharmacutical lobbies tried to convince politicians here to pass legislature banning people here from buying their drugs in Canada (as some seniors have taken to doing to cut costs), by saying that because they are from other countires, the meds aren't as safe as the ones that are sold here. I think that's a load of rubbish; most of the companies saying that are the ones selling to the other countries. Plus, taking Viagra as an example, it's not even made in the US at all. It's made in a small town in Ireland I think, and it's the same stuff they sell to the people in Canada. (Or, more appropriately, to the govenrment of Canada.)

Just because the country we live in is deemed more wealthy than others, does that make everyone who lives there fit to be taken for a spin by the people who make the drugs some of us need to live?

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=DeathBug]
So we should use socialized health care to suppliment people like your mother-in-law?

Not that I'm saying all people in such situations are lazy, but we're raising a generation that can realistically believe that the government will bail them out of everything. That's not good any way you look at it.[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]Actually they do have an insurance for those kind of people whether they're a bunch of lazy *** people like my mother-in-law (there's a long story on why I think she's a lazy so and so, but it'd be off topic ) or just really poor and on disability and social security welfare and other stuff because the government won't instill a living wage even though it's not possible to make ends meet at $5.75 an hour (usual given minimum wage in NYS) It's called medicaide. So basically speaking you can get health care if you're extremely poor, in a government job, wealthy or your employer offers it and you're eligible, but not if you work your proverbial butt off and still aren't eligible.

Perhaps a bit off topic, but I think the reason that Health care in the united states is so damn expensive is because we've become a country of sue happy people so the doctors have to pay more for insurance so they charge more and then those charges are then passed on to the employers who then can't afford to get health insurance plans for all their employees.

And DB, I'll change my signature, but only if you can accurately tell me what the discription of the partial birth abortion ban law really is :) (hint: it's [i]not[/i] just killing a partially born infant) [/color]

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darlviolet]
Perhaps a bit off topic, but I think the reason that Health care in the united states is so damn expensive is because we've become a country of sue happy people so the doctors have to pay more for insurance so they charge more and then those charges are then passed on to the employers who then can't afford to get health insurance plans for all their employees.

[/color][/QUOTE]

As far as I can tell, malpractice is certainly on-topic. And as far as I'm concerned, you are right on target concerning our lawsuit-happy nation. IS malpractice necessary? Sure.. bad doctors should be removed. Has it been manipulated to the point of crippling our medical eqilibrium? Unfortunately.

Anyone here want to solve the healthcare problem in America? Become a doctor and work for 30,000 a year. Some doctors do, some doctors choose not to. Some doctors are overly generous in providing healthcare, and hospitals like the one I work at lose well over 2 million dollars annualy because of people skipping out on paying their $20 dollar co-pay. If you get the government involved, you force these individuals to yeild and accept poor healthcare and, as medicaid patients understand, are legally hunted if they do not pay their bills (as I mentioned before, doctors can't just credit the bill).

[Guest Midnight Rush]

I read like 3 posts and nearly vomited, died laughing, and generally was amused.

My thoughts on healthcare from family perspective-

1. The prices suck.

2. Too hard to get.

3. Nothing you can do about it.

4. Get the **** over it.

Now a corporate perspective-

1. The prices suck

2. Want to help emplyees but can't, as costs are driven too high.

3. Nothing they can do about it.

4. They got the hell over it.

By the way, the purpose of American Government, as stated in the Federalist Papers, is not to keep its citizens alive. It is to defend them from outside invasion and keep order.

In terms of lawsuits, yes its necesary. ( I know I spelled that wrong LMAO.) But we should definetly cap the damages that can be awarded at 500,000 US$

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]Socialized healthcare is a noble idea, but unlike most socialist ideas, simply doesn?t work. In Canada, everyone has healthcare. The waits for most major operations are much longer than they are here and people are unable to get the same quality of care that they'd be able to enjoy under a private system.

The problem with a private system is that not everyone is able to afford healthcare. In our country, this is due mainly to the incredible amount of lawsuits that are filed each year against the medical community. Most of these lawsuits are frivolous, and end up raising insurance costs for the rest of us. If the United States instituted a loser pays policy for lawsuits, then people would think twice before suing and premiums would drop drastically.

Most people who support socialized healthcare are "thinking" with their emotions, not their heads. Socialized healthcare is a good idea, but it isn?t practical. Hopefully, this sad system will never be adopted over here.


One final note. When I left Australia, there was a big debate over whether or not socialized healthcare should be instituted over there. Is that still going on, or was the issues decided on?[/color]