Gay Vs Lesbian

[Doukeshi]

Okay, I admit, the title isn't really what this topic is about..well, not really. I was watching a documentary recently on the attitudes of the public and of the press towards homosexuality in 1960s Britain and it became apparent to me that the focus was much more upon gay men than on gay women. It seems that whenever we think of the term 'homosexuality' we immediatly think of men and I have come to realise that it is far more acceptable to be a gay man than it is to be a gay woman.

Even in entertainment mediums such as film and television, programmes such as 'Will & Grace' or movies like 'The Crying Game' gay men are portrayed far more often than women and with much more relaxed attitudes.

I would just like to hear other people's opinions of this. Now I don't want to turn this into a slagging match. This isn't about the merits of being gay or ethical reasoning or what have you. I am simply trying to judge the differences in public acknowledgement and acceptance of male and female homosexuality.

[size=1][I]P.S There was a note in the documentary that said Queen Victoria didn't see the need for a law to be passed against lesbians like the one passed on gays because "it [being a lesbian] simply wasn't possible." I found that quite amusing.[/I][/size]

[Guest Midnight Rush]

I personally am not fond of both, but I must admit that I like gay men FAR less than lesbians. I'm not saying anything...but if a chick digs other chicks its just ok with me.

[Dagger]

[quote name='doukeshi03']It seems that whenever we think of the term 'homosexuality' we immediatly think of men and I have come to realise that it is far more acceptable to be a gay man than it is to be a gay woman.[/quote]
In the US, at least, the exact opposite is true. While lesbianism is not always treated respectfully or seriously, there are a [i]lot[/i] of people (predominantly male) who think along the same lines as Mr. Midnight Rush. There's definitely something of a double standard in effect, and I would guess that this is because we as a population find it easier to exploit women who sleep with other women than to tolerate men who sleep with other men.

~Dagger~

[Guest Midnight Rush]

[QUOTE=Dagger IX1]In the US, at least, the exact opposite is true. While lesbianism is not always treated respectfully or seriously, there are a [i]lot[/i] of people (predominantly male) who think along the same lines as Mr. Midnight Rush. There's definitely something of a double standard in effect, and I would guess that this is because we as a population find it easier to exploit women who sleep with other women than to tolerate men who sleep with other men.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

She's right of course. Most people that I know (For the posts sake lets say 50+) would be totally disgusted if a gay man walked into the room and it was obvious that he was gay.

If a woman waked into the room and hit on another chick, I'd be ten thousand dollars she'd get the most cards on valentine's day (if she was hot). It is a double standard, and you were exactly right:

Its because lesbians are easier to exploit. And that leadership roles are predominantly filled by men who don't "mind" lezzies.

[naota]

Well,gay men creep me out.They get a new voice to make them sound very gat and hit on other boys and stuff like that.Sorry to say but that creeps me out big time.But women lesbians......I guess I find that creepy too unless I see that lesbian action in films.But really I don't like both out side of the film.

[Godelsensei]

[COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New][quote name='Deimos']Well,gay men creep me out.They get a new voice to make them sound very gat and hit on other boys and stuff like that.Sorry to say but that creeps me out big time.But women lesbians......I guess I find that creepy too unless I see that lesbian action in films.But really I don't like both out side of the film.[/quote]

Just to clarify, not all gay men walk around with a limp hand saying, "Oh! Gucci [i]shoes[/i]!"
And your comment about "lesbian action" in films just confirms the points that have been brought up before. That's why there's so much yurri out there.

Being a girl who is friends with guys who like to talk about lesbians because they find the concept "sexy", I agree with Skip's point of exploitation entirely. It has always been more acceptable (in terms of receiving respect) for a man to be gay than for a woman to be lesbian.
Even during the Edo period in Japan, it was considered honorable for a man to be homosexual, but I doubt that any one would have thought lesbianism even thinkable, aside from one herself (and if they did, they never would have mentioned it).

Maybe that's part of the fun of every one's favourite shounen-ai and yaoi titles; let's exploit [i]them[/i] for a change.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Guest The Pro]

Lol, funny thing, when i was reading through this thread, an add for a lesbian porn site popped out, must be a sign. Plus lesbians are the best thing since sliced bread! i mean comon! best women alive were lesbians.... that chick upstairs... umm... somthing else ryhms with purple.

[Sol-Blade]

I don't really have anything against gays. I mean if you are a gay guy, fine with me just don't be trying anything :rolleyes:. As for lesbians, more power to you. Though I think that a gay man is frowned upon more than a gay woman. And when I say frowned upon, Im talking about those guys who just can't fathom a man loving [I]another[/I] man. Everybody knows at least one of them...they hate gay guys but gay girls are a-okay with them! Why? Well you know why...

Personally, I could careless what your sexual preference is. Long as I know where you stand and you know where I stand, we will get along just fine :D.

[Gelgoog Pilot]

Man....I was just about to ask why lesbians and fags were fighting....I would think that sort of cool really. Alass, my hopes of a homosexual war were crushed.

Anyway, I have to totally agree, lesbians are more exploitable. Lets face it, most men are extremely into the idea of watching two chicks make out. Me sure it would be something to see, unless one of the chicks was a g/f of yours or you really 'had' liked her heh. Then again, I could careless if they really want to be with other women so be it. And gay men are fine with me, though if they start hitting on me I'd duck and run lol. I say its all really the whole society right now. Look at the Russian group T.A.T.U. they were portrayed as lesbians to no doubt catch more peoples attention. In fact they were only paid and blah blah blah to do that stuff.

[So-Seductive]

To Me I think Gay men are not as accepted as Lesbians, Yes you might see them in mores show but people treat them way worser in real life. Lesbians seem to have it more easy, plus it seems like a fashion trend for women to be lesbian or BI.

[AzureWolf]

[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=Blue]Excuse me if I ignore any strange comments that have been mentioned, haha.

doukeshi is right about the "prominence" of gays over lesbians. In my opinion, the answer is what Godel said, except... less... weird. O_o

Anyway, the sexual life of males has always more open than that of females (at least to the general populace). Not even talking about homosexuality yet, there has always been the idea that a woman is refined, and does not delve into such subjects. In history, how often have you seen women mentioned or portrayed in bars? Publicity of women has always been low, and sex life is no different - maybe less. In short, women having any sex or sexual drive is rarely considered.

I think the best example would be that of the doctor's relationship with his patients. When a doctor would examine a fellow man, he'd look straight at him and his endowments. With women, however, doctors would "blind" themselves to the woman and check for health only by touch. I'm not sure if there's a direct correlation, but I think the fact that a woman's concern was more about being seen down there (via "the gaze") than being touched has some importance in this topic.

Even in literature, you can find age-old tales about gay love, but nothing on lesbians. Take the story of the circle of philosophical wisemen at a bar, discussing the levels of love. One man speaks of loving his apprentice, while the only mention of a woman at the table is by Socrates, comparing a heterosexual love to a part of oneself, thereby raising that love to the highest level. If I remember, the love between the teacher and his apprentice was two levels down from husband-wife love, so it wasn't some type of rare, unaccepted kind of thing.

I really (REALLY) have to disagree with the idea that women are just more exploitable. In this day and age, I honestly don't know why lesbians and gays are not being represented equally (but there is a lesbian couple in Friends, right?). If there's anything responsible, I would say it's tradition, and the unease of straying from that tradition.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Doukeshi]

I think Azurewolf has made a good point there. Because of the traditional focus on men rather than women, homosexuality in females has been all but overlooked in previous decades (please note my comment about Queen Victoria in my opening post).

[Brasil]

[quote name='AzureWolf][font=Book Antiqua][size=2][color=Blue]Even in literature, you can find age-old tales about gay love, but nothing on lesbians. [/color][/size'][/font][/quote] Quick literature lesson.

If one were to study even the late 1890s, one would see that there are some discrepancies in what you said, most notably, in the purpose of writing. What you have to keep in mind, however, is that when you look at the poetry of Walt Whitman (one of the most "out" authors in literary history), or even Oscar Wilde, you will see that both of them [i]were[/i] gay, so they had a very specific reason for writing gay literature...they were gay.

Of course, Wilde's sexual orientation is debatable, as he was married with a few kids, but when his career and life ended after a lawsuit by the Marquis of Queensberry, accusing Wilde of being a sodomist because he had taken an interest in the Marquis' son, Lord Alfred Douglas, I think it's safe to say that Wilde was homosexual.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand, you may ask?

Wilde and Whitman wrote about homosexuality because they believed in it, not because it would net them fame and fortune, although fame and fortune were certainly a driving motivation behind it.

And it's not that lesbianism was ignored in literature, either. Theophile Gautier's [i]Mademoiselle de Maupin[/i] was dripping with lesbian sexuality (no pun intended). It has a woman-on-woman scene in a bath-house, I believe.

In regard to lesbianism and Victorian England, there was lesbianism, but it wasn't flaunted like male homosexuality was, which is why not many people believed it existed. But it [i]did[/i] exist.

Also, it's not as if male homosexuality was widely accepted, either. It was more or less brushed under the rug, as it were. If it were widely accepted, would Wilde have gotten prosecuted? Would his career have collapsed into shambles? Wilde flaunted it. He did everything the Victorians didn't want him to do, including dressing up like a queen.

I think the best way to describe the social climate is that the Victorians were fine with homosexuality, both female and male, as long as it was kept behind closed doors.

One could make a case that older literature praises male homosexuality if one mentions the Epic of Gilgamesh, but again, one must keep in mind that in Gilgamesh, the man-man love was not based on any sexual attraction to the male body, but more based on how women were viewed as inferior. It's an important distinction to make and understand, I think.

The only reason that Enkidu and Gilgamesh love each other is based on brotherly love, love for the fellow man...not simply for getting down and dirty with another guy. lol

AW, what you're talking about...criticizing, even, falls more along the lines of Slash FanFic amateurs.

Honestly, I think that's where the greatest misconceptions regarding Gays vs Lesbians come from: Slash FanFic and its ilk...the immature writing/entertainment that romanticizes homosexuality, creating the stereotypes mentioned in this thread ("Oh my God, you look faaaabulous!").

Entertainment-wise, equality between gays and lesbians is nowhere close from what I can see, and with shows like Queer Eye, I think gays are being glorified, while someone looks at Rosie O'Donnell and thinks that's how all lesbians are: loud, manly, and obnoxious.

They're both rather derogatory stereotypes that need to be balanced out with each other.

[Juu]

[color=deeppink][size=1]I'd have to agree with Siren, there.

People seem to have this stupid stereotype of what gays and lesbians are like. Okay, but how many people have actually met and know a gay/lesbian person besides ones they see on TV? My science teacher is gay, so what? He doesn't prance around and go around 'bragging' about it. I live in San Francisco, and I've actually met people who are gay/lesbian, but I didn't have a clue that they were until I found out from someone else.

To me, stereotyping gays and lesbians makes just as much sense as racism to me.

It's their personal life. The fact a guy might like guys doesn't mean they're obsessed with fashion and talk like 'oh-my-GOD'-like as we see in the media. The fact that a girl might like girls shouldn't make her obnoxious, loud and manly. It's just who they like. They can't do anything about it, just as people can't do anything about the race they're born as. So what's the big deal?

Honestly, I'd like to see how many people actually know someone who is homosexual, and WELL. And that doesn't mean 'Oh, I've seen six episodes of Queer Eye'.[/color][/size]

[Gelgoog Pilot]

Juuthena, I know many gays and lesbians, I agree some aren't at all as the world stereotypes them. Then in turn some are. Anyway not the issue. I should retract any pervious statements that may have implied that women are more exploitable. Taking a deeper look into it I happen to agree that it is tradition. All the way back in history the world has basically revolved around man. I don't agree with this idea but lets face it its true. If the men were doing it it was better and worthy of knowing. Really what the women did mattered not one bit back then. So its not saying there were no lesbians, just that no one saw it as 'important' to record. Hell even Alexander the great had a male partner, yet back then it was acceptable, now it sort of is again but, alot of people wish it would just go away. Ah whatever Im done rambling, thankfully for you people I kept this one short...I can go off on a tantrum once in a while. lol.

[Heero Darkangel]

I have nothing against Gays (as long as they keep their fingers to themselves) and Lesbians, I have an uncle who is gay, he also as a partner, they very cool, They have alot of gay friends which I've told them that [I]if they touched me i'll break their fingers[/I]..they respected what I said and they don't touch me in anyway that might offend me. and lesbians well they're very cool, my uncle has a couple of lesbian friends and they're the best...they're all really good to get along with..and might I add..they're awsome fighters..LOL

Anyway over here in New Zealand they're having this big dispute about Gays and Lesbians getting married etc...There's a church over here called Destiny Church...it's really stung up on not letting Gays and Lesbians get married or be classed as a couple, this church says that it's wrong, disgusting and it shouldn't be allowed, they had a huge protest about it in Wellington (capital of New Zealand) infront of the parliment building and then the Gays and Lesbians fought against this church by holding their own protest ( my uncles didn't go down they had work). I mean what all Gays and Lesbians over here want is to be acknowledged as a couple...I mean whats wrong with that?...For the ones who are against it what gives them the right to judge a gay person or lesbian person's life?...I mean WAKE UP NOONES PERFECT!!...it's funny how people can live in a world surrounded by war and poverty but can't live in a world with Gays and Lesbians..now thats totally wacked!

[Guest lavalamp]

The constant, "I'll tolerate homosexuality if it doesn't conflict with my masculinity," bit is absolutely ridiculous. Homosexuals aren't rapists or victims of abnormal sex drives.

Saying you would break one's fingers because they touched you makes me want to break your fingers. The fact that people [boys, for the most part] have to assert that they like homosexuals on those conditions is laughable. Way to fire off the insecurity red light.

[Brasil]

Well said, lava lamp.

[quote name='Heero Darkangel]I have nothing against Gays (as long as they keep their fingers to themselves) and Lesbians, I have an uncle who is gay, he also as a partner, they very cool, They have alot of gay friends which I've told them that [i]if they touched me i'll break their fingers[/i']..they respected what I said and they don't touch me in anyway that might offend me. and lesbians well they're very cool, my uncle has a couple of lesbian friends and they're the best...they're all really good to get along with..and might I add..they're awsome fighters..LOL[/quote]
Yes, Heero, like lava lamp, I fail to see how the above statement is supposed to lend credibility in a discussion about gays and lesbians. I have gay friends at Rutgers; I have a gay uncle. My therapist is gay. What bearing does that have here? The answer is none.

The above statement is really nothing different than saying, "I'm not a racist because I have a lot of black friends."

All I see in the above statement is someone trying to cover their -ss by relating this incredible involvement (but only if they don't touch you) with homosexuals.

And to add to what lava lamp has said, Heero, if you haven't been touched in the past, why would you immediately tell these gays that if they touch you, you'll break their fingers? I mean, that just screams media-induced prejudice.

Am I simply missing something here?

[Skye]

[color=orange][size=1][font=veranda]0.0 Class, can we say, ?OMG, somebody help me?!? ?

Sorry, this is just way weird. To have all these straight people talking about gays and lesbians as if they know everything? no offense, Siren, I actually like your posts. Very nice.

I, myself am not a lesbian ? but I am bisexual. I seem to get pleasant shivers up and down my spine whenever a seriously hot guy or girl looks at me with half-closed eyes.

Siren & Heero: Let me see? media-induced prejudice? Interesting. I, being bi, had the problem, when I first found out, of being scared of other girls touching me. Despite the fact that my mom is also bi, so I grew up with the openness, I felt sort of awkward. Its one of those natural things that happens whether you like it or not. -_-

>.< This is such an interesting topic. Its hard to contradict anything you all say, since I think I agree with it, but.. my perspective is so different. I have this confused ?help me? look on my face.[/color][/font][/size]

[James]

[quote name='Sol-Blade'] I mean if you are a gay guy, fine with me just don't be trying anything :rolleyes:. [/quote]

[color=#707875]I really hate it when men say stuff like that. I mean, you know, as if all gay men are going to rape you because you're also male. That's like saying that all heterosexual women are going to rape you because you're male.

Anyway, I think it's a pretty open and shut case. Lesbians are far more accepted than gay men. Why? Because they pose no threat to heterosexual men. Heterosexual men (particularly those who aren't as sure of their own sexuality), perceive some kind of threat from gay men (which is totally non-existent, mind you).

However, there isn't a territorial issue surrounding gay women. I'm sure that's one reason. The other is that many heterosexual men find the idea of lesbians "hot". So of course, (for the slack-jawed and dim-witted out there), lesbians are totally fine because they're hot. But gay men aren't fine because they're gross.

Yeah...that makes a [i]lot[/i] of sense.

Edit: Oh and, thanks for those who added some sanity to Heero's comments. Again, that's another example of the prejudice that I can't stand.[/color]

[Sol-Blade]

Heh, great points there James. I didn't really mean my comment that way though. Im not prejudice (as far as I believe myself to be) against gays. I have a friend who i've known for literally my whole life. A year ago, he told a bunch of his closest friends that he was gay, and a most of them decided that they didn't want anything to do with him. Me on the other hand, It didn't make any difference to me. I just joked around about it alot, hence my little comment James quoted :D. I don't go around, being extra-cautious near every guy I meet. That is just pointless.

[James]

[color=#707875]Yeah, I wasn't sure if you were serious or not. In my post I was mostly going after the people who [i]do[/i] say that line seriously (which is why I didn't mention you by name). But I did quote you, so yeah...that implied I was responding directly to you. My apologies about that.

I have seen plenty of people tell their friends about their sexuality, only to have many friends throw it in their face. I remember one guy who told some friends and one of them spread it through his entire high school. The next day, he had [i]threats[/i] written on his locker door. More than half his friends totally abandoned him, too.

All of that, simply due to prejudice. It's no wonder that I get very irked as soon as I detect things like that.

Not to stray too far from the point, but, this is why Adam and I are very careful about prejudice here on OB. It's not because either of us want to push one point of view, but rather, it's because we want this place to be somewhere that all people can go, no matter who they are.

So if you're a kid who has a rough day at school because you're overweight, or unpopular or whatever, at least OB is a place where you can have fun and be an equal. [i]That[/i] is the motivation behind the way this place operates. As I said, it's not 100% related to this line of discussion, but I do think it's an example of how people can do small things to make everyone feel included. I think that's very important, especially because so many kids experience some awful prejudices in their own daily lives.[/color]

[naota]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=Teal]The only reason I am creeped out by gay men is because movies and shows that I see where a man gets raped or they talk with a creepy voice.I am not saying that all men who are gay will walk up to you and grab your but or throw you in a alley and rape you I am just saying that some sick twisted gay person can do that so I like to keep away from gay people.I am freaked out also because of south park kinda....because they said alot of gay men like to have sex with little boys and teenagers.....But like I said its not all gay men that do this but some do so I just like to stay as far away from them as possible.I haven't met a gay guy in my life but I don't wanna try either.

As for the lesbians I am not saying I like to see them naked doing it like there is no tommorow.I am just saying I see movies and shows about it only because my sister watches shows where there is ocasionally lesbians having sex.Sure its intresting to me but if I were a girl I would probably be freaked out by lesbians and love gays.I am not a lesbian freak it is just that I would prefer lesbians because its kinda weird watching to men that is your same gender just making out or feeling eachother and stuff like that.

For all I know gay's and lesbians are like straight people.They hit on there own gender when they think they are "cute".I am not saying that they think every person that is their gender is cute only certain ones.Thats why they have gay parties and stuff so they can try to find a date just like someone straight would.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[James]

[QUOTE=Deimos][SIZE=1][COLOR=Teal]The only reason I am creeped out by gay men is because movies and shows that I see where a man gets raped or they talk with a creepy voice.I am not saying that all men who are gay will walk up to you and grab your but or throw you in a alley and rape you I am just saying that some sick twisted gay person can do that so I like to keep away from gay people.I am freaked out also because of south park kinda....because they said alot of gay men like to have sex with little boys and teenagers.....But like I said its not all gay men that do this but some do so I just like to stay as far away from them as possible.I haven't met a gay guy in my life but I don't wanna try either.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]There are several problems with what you're saying though.

By your logic, I should never attend Church, because a Priest might molest me.

By your logic, women should never date men, because there are some straight men who rape women.

Do you see where I'm going with that?

In addition, you're confusing paedophilia with homosexuality. And moreover, why on Earth would you believe South Park?

I just can't believe how much these comments smack of ignorance and prejudice. I don't know what else to say about it, other than making the observations that [i]should be obvious to any reasonably intelligent person[/i].

Your last paragraph was perhaps the most reasonable thing you said. Gay and lesbian people are just like straight people, save for the fact that their orientation is different. But there's no difference in terms of sex drive or violence/rape, etc.[/color]

[Doukeshi]

I think that some of you are concluding that Lesbianism is more accepted because male's feel threatened by Gays and therefore that is the only explanation. What about the other way around? From a woman's point of view it is more acceptable to be a Gay man than it is to be a gay woman surely?

I think that there is far more evidence to suggest that Male homosexuality is taken more seriously and accepted into modern culture than that of females. Although I do think that there is still an enormous amount of prejudice to both sexes by ignorant society.

BTW Delirium, I think you are assuming that people taking part in this thread are all straight..this is probably not the case