Gaming Mature gaming or adult gaming?

[Shinmaru]

This is a subject that I feel pretty strongly about, so I'm hoping that we can get some good discussion going on it.

I posted on my myOtaku recently about the October issue of Playboy, which features several video game women. If you read it, you could tell that I was pretty set against it, and not just because I'm in no way interested in seeing topless computer generated women lol. In the article I quoted, there were a couple of parts that really stood out to me, and I'd like to quote them here:

[quote]The growing presence of video game nudity and sexuality ? both in and out of games ? is something of a double-edged sword for the industry. On the one hand, female characters appearing topless could reinforce the outdated stereotype of gamers as shut-in losers who lack any sort of social skills.[/quote]

First of all, I agree with this. Whether it's fair, or it's unfair, something like that will damage the "image" of gamers, and enforce negative stereotypes. I don't think that anyone could really argue against that, honestly.

[quote]On the other, it underlines how much older the audience for these games has gotten in recent years. According to the Entertainment Software Association, today's average game player is 29 years old. And the average game buyer is 36.[/quote]

This is the second quote. While I think that it is basically true, I don't agree with the idea behind the whole process. I don't like that a lot of developers feel they have to amp up the sexuality and gore in their games to pander to an older audience. Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with sexuality and gore, if they're used for a purpose other than to make a game seem more adult or give it shock value or whatever.

And that's what I feel strongly about. All too often, we see mature gaming equated with adult gaming, and I simply think that this is wrong. To me, mature games gain their maturity based on their gameplay, not on their appearance and any extraneous factors. Of course, there are many mature games that employ adult themes, but there are many games that I feel are perfectly mature that [i]don't[/i] use adult themes. I'll give a couple of examples of both.

Mature game with adult themes: Something like Metal Gear Solid. It has blood, cursing, sexuality and the like, but those elements are used to enhance the gameplay and the story, rather than just being there to sell a million copies. Metal Gear Solid uses adult themes in a mature manner, and is a better game because of it.

Mature game without adult themes: Pikmin 2. Cartoonish violence, no blood and gore, no cursing, no anything, but it is still a mature game. Why? Because the gameplay sets the maturity level, rather than the ambience. I honestly get a good laugh when people call Pikmin or its sequel immature and childish. They couldn't be more wrong. The ambience might be childish, but the gameplay is best suited for a developed, mature mind that would best be able to think through the various puzzles that the game offers. I can't see a very young child being able to work through the game very easily.

To me, you don't have to have adult themes to be considered a mature game. Games with adult themes certainly have their place within gaming, I won't dispute that, but I don't think they should suddenly become the norm just because one particular audience has grown up. There has to be some sort of balance, in my opinion.

Anyway, feel free to agree with me, disagree with me, add on to what I said, quote me maliciously, or whatever. I'd like to get some good discussion out of this.

[BlueYoshi]

[quote name='Shinmaru']Mature game with adult themes: Something like Metal Gear Solid. It has blood, cursing, sexuality and the like, but those elements are used to enhance the gameplay and the story, rather than just being there to sell a million copies. Metal Gear Solid uses adult themes in a mature manner, and is a better game because of it.[/quote]

I'd call Fear Effect 2 a more fitting example, except it uses these so-called mature elements for all the wrong reasons.

I don't agree at all with how a game's maturity has anything to do with how good it is. That's just wrong, because what it all boils down to in the end is how the game is executed in terms of gameplay, structure, and mechanics.

Mature can mean anything, though. If a game is incredibly easy to play, like Super Mario Bros., and is incredibly easy to beat and judge, then does that make it an immature game? Surely not. I find that my favourite types of games are the ones in which you can easily adapt to and pick up and play right off the bat (MegaMan, Mario, 2D side-scrollers, etc.)... so by that logic, and the example I gave above, does that make me an "immature" gamer?

Personally, I don't care if a game revolves around T&A or any other entail of nudity as its stronghold. If I like the concept of it and I feel comfortable that a game of the sort will be good, then I'm happy and am willing to try it out. I don't know if my hypothesis is coming out right to some of you, but that's how I feel. And no, I'm not that type of person. :p

I can just as easily call a game terrible, for whatever reasons, but the concept of immaturity in gaming is so irrelevant to me. As far as I'm concerned, the only place for the word "mature" in the gaming industry is in the PEGI age rating system.

[Shinmaru]

[quote name='Wingnut Ninja']Mature can mean anything, though. If a game is incredibly easy to play, like Super Mario Bros., and is incredibly easy to beat and judge, then does that make it an immature game? Surely not. I find that my favourite types of games are the ones in which you can easily adapt to and pick up and play right off the bat (MegaMan, Mario, 2D side-scrollers, etc.)... so by that logic, and the example I gave above, does that make me an "immature" gamer?[/quote]

I agree that it doesn't, and I also agree that games don't always have to have deep, thoughtful gameplay to be really fun. The example you used was just about perfect; Super Mario Bros. doesn't exactly have the deepest gameplay ever, but it's one of the most fun games ever released.

Anyway, I know that all this goes far deeper than what I've first presented lol. It's not all black and white, as your example proves.

[quote]Personally, I don't care if a game revolves around T&A or any other entail of nudity as its stronghold. If I like the concept of it and I feel comfortable that a game of the sort will be good, then I'm happy and am willing to try it out. I don't know if my hypothesis is coming out right to some of you, but that's how I feel. And no, I'm not that type of person. :p[/QUOTE]

Really, that's how I look at games, as well. I was just thinking about maturity and whatnot, because it's something that's a pretty important issue in gaming. What counts for me most is how fun a game is, and this discussion lends itself to that, because there are so many different ways to have fun in gaming.

[Semjaza]

In general, "mature" is a very poorly used word in the gaming world. I don't know if it can be blamed on the industry, media, game journalists or just the end-users themselves. In most cases, "mature" is just correlated with visceral experiences and not mental ones. While you sometimes see games rated M just for "suggestive themes" (generally that seems to involve religious ideas), it's mostly just due to sex and gore.

While these may be enough to earn a M rating, and thus be referred to as Mature Rated games, that doesn't really make them "mature" in terms of how I personally feel the word should be used. Games full of gore just for the sake of having it are not something I refer to as mature because the whole concept is created based soley on immaturity in the first place. The same with games like BMX XXX, which has no reason for existance, let alone the gratuitous nudity involved. As a bonus, Acclaim is filing bankruptcy at least.

The problem is that people are using this word for different reasons, but it's all muddled together as one. Some people refer to as a game being mature simply because young people are not supposed to play it. Some people refer to these games as mature because the M rating is directly comparable to the R rating in theaters. We can't say a game is rated R, we have to say it's rated M... since that letter stands for "mature" as it is, I feel it leads to a lot of confusion and misconceptions.

Personally, I have no interest in games that feature gore or sexual situations for no good reason other than the shock value or "bragging" rights (if you can even call them that, but I'm sure people have noticed the furor over games involving nudity in the US). Violence and sexual situations are fine, if they're treated the way they should be treated. As it is, most of these types of games are absolutely insulting to the intelligence of the average gamer. Slowly it seems people are waking up to this.

I think a good example of well used "mature" concepts is the upcoming Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne. Yes, I talk about this game in every way I can, I'm just that much of a nerd.

Anyway, the game features VERY suggestive themes involving good and evil and religion (hell, in the last game the official ending was that you fight and kill god himself). The Judeo-Christian God is portrayed as a sadistic character while Lucifer is portrayed as a sort of freedom fighter. Obviously it's a spin on what most people think of these beings, but it's treated with intelligence and heavily researched (I think SMT:N's creation had a bibliography of somewhere around 420 books on the subject).

The game also features intense violence, and while someone can argue any violence of that level is not needed, it's not portrayed in a way that isn't treated properly. It's not flaunted. Just as the sexual elements in the game are treated as they should be. There are various nude demons because that's how they appear in their sources, but this nudity is not shaken around in your face. It doesn't take the fore front.

To me, this is how a mature game should be treated. Maturity doesn't mean blood, sex and violence to me. It means proper use of the subject matter and restrictions that keep things within the realm of good taste without killing off creative freedom. This could be SMT:N or a Silent Hill/Resident Evil title or even something rated E like Pikmin 2. I basically just don't think we should be pandered to.

[James]

[color=#707875]I think this topic brings up several really good points. Playboy has missed the boat in some respects, based on those comments.

It's true that the average age of gamers is moving up. But the thing is, a lot of gamers who are older (in their 20s and 30s) are not necessarily new to gaming itself; many of them were playing games like Super Mario Bros. when they were new and many were also playing the older Atari consoles too.

One of the concerns I have, when looking at this whole thing objectively, is that as more and more companies try to "cater to adults", less companies are going to be producing games that cater to all ages.

People often bash Nintendo for being "family friendly". But let's not forget that there is a difference between a game for "all ages" and a game for kids. It's like comparing, say, Yoshi's Story to Super Mario Sunshine. Yoshi's Story was basically a kid's game. I enjoyed it, but it was obviously designed for people who are very new to gaming. SMS, on the other hand, has some insanely difficult moments, which little kids just aren't going to be able to do. Yet at the same time, it features a light hearted aesthetic style and it's definitely very easy to jump into, regardless of your age.

It's the kind of game where I think anyone can play. A kid can run around Delfino Isle and perform the more basic things, while their parents can do the difficult stages. That's the kind of game I enjoy, because the spectrum of players is so wide.

And then if you look at, say, Zelda...you have a game where younger people can play, but compared to Mario, it's a game that is going to require slightly more skill. At the same time, it's still something that anyone can really jump into, because it's so intuitive.

I tend to bring up Nintendo as an example because I think that their philosophy is a good one. You [i]can[/i] be successful if you make a variety of games. You can still have your Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime, while also having Yoshi's Story and Kirby. There's room for everyone.

One of the interesting things is that I don't think sex has really been used effectively in a game I've seen so far. I mean, I am a fan of the Leisure Suit Larry games, so...in that sense, I think it was used well (though crudely). But what I mean is, I haven't really seen a game that uses sex in a tasteful or intelligent way. So who knows. I don't think it's terribly important, because I would probably be happier to see games without too much sexual content. But that's just a personal preference.

In general, I agree with what everyone is saying about mature versus adult.

A game like Leisure Suit Larry -- with its wafer-thin story, crude jokes and silly humor -- might be considered adult. Ultimately, there's nothing "mature" about it; it's an excuse for toilet humor and sexual themes. On the other hand, a game like Silent Hill might be considered "mature", because it deals with some very heavy issues (religious cults and so on) in an intelligent and creative way -- it also requires a certain level of maturity to be able to understand and appreciate it.[/color]

[Korey]

[QUOTE=Shinmaru]
Really, that's how I look at games, as well. I was just thinking about maturity and whatnot, because it's something that's a pretty important issue in gaming. What counts for me most is how fun a game is, and this discussion lends itself to that, because there are so many different ways to have fun in gaming.[/QUOTE]


[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]i agree with ya all the way shinmaru!i judge games' "maturity" on how fun the game is in its entirety. Metal gear solid got the mature rating because of the violence, cursing, etc. but we've all agreed in this thread that it supplements the game well.

now for the ultimate game that sold copies because of the t&a factors. the duke nukem series. i picked up a copy of that when it came out for the ps1 and i personally thought that making women shake their rumps in your face for amusement was pretty lame. was that supposed to impress me sexually? it more like made me wanna put a cap in the girl anyways. the developers really tried to get a rouse out of men in the most obvious of ways and it ended it pretty corny[/COLOR]

[WarAngel]

People With Kids Should Have The Smarts To Ask What The Game Is Like Before They By It

And Its Stupid To Let Your Kid Watch Rated R Movies And Adult Rated Tv But When Theres Sex In A Video Game Its Wrong Is It Me Or Are Adults Just Stupid When It Comes To Things Like That What Do The Think The Rateing At The Bottom Stands For The Alphebet

Dummies Any Way If You Dont Want Your Kide To Play What You See As A Bad Game Then Be Fair And Dont Let Them Watch Tv Any Way