Syk3 Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 [font=verdana][quote name='James][color=#707875']I'm speaking based on scientific research though. I mean, if you compare regular marijuana smoking to regular tabacco smoking...both are dangerous, but marijuana has some potentially severe mental side effects.[/quote][/color] I still am trying to figure out what you mean by "severe mental side effects". While it is true that short term effects include memory loss, beer has the same effect, which is temporary and wears off completely. In no way does pot have long term effects on the brain. If you check out the site in my first post, you'll read that after 25 years of smoking marijuana, the author still tests as a genius on IQ tests, and claims that his mental abilities have actually increased over the years. It's also true, however, that it affects each person differently. "Obviously, if you have tried Marijuana and it had a bad effect on you, don't continue to use it." [quote][color=#707875][i]All too often, proponents of marijuana try to suggest that it's a "harmless drug" or that it's somehow being victimized.[/i] [i]But that is incorrect. It's a drug, and it's potentially very dangerous.[/i][/color][/quote]"A person who wants to get high on something that isn't addictive and doesn't have any long term health effects for the moderate user would likely choose to smoke Pot." Perhaps someone who frequently gets high on the drug (every day) has potential risks of getting cancer or similar effects as cigarettes, but it's all speculated information and has yet to be proven. Until it is, you can't say [i]for sure[/i] that frequent use is bad, even though that would be the most likely way to contract something from marijuana. [quote][color=#707875][i]I also don't agree at all with the rebellion point. And I don't think that there is any data to back that up.[/i][/color][/quote]Well, lets go back to square one. There are always going to be kids that rebel against authority. Now, I personally believe that pot is a safe way to do that, but that's just my opinion. Whether the drug is legalized or not, kids are going to do it, so you can count that for whatever side, as even if you legalize it this will not change. Even if it would be legal, it's likely that you would have to be over 18 or 21, so it would still be illegal for them, and they might rebel by smoking pot. This will not change. But if it becomes legal, it might stop adults from using it to rebel against society, and it will clear up prisons for violent criminals. [quote][color=#707875][i]As I said earlier, my younger brother smokes. I'm sure he started because it was "cool" or something, but now he is addicted to it. Smoking tabacco isn't illegal. The sense of rebellion was there regardless of the legality of the item -- I guarantee you, making it legal isn't going to somehow make it less attractive. lol[/i][/color][/QUOTE]You're right, tobacco isn't illegal and people still do it. However, most people who smoke cigarettes start when they are young and when it [i]is[/i] illegal, and they become addicted to it. They might do it to rebel as an underage smoker, or to appear cool with the "rebel-image". Pot has the same image, and I think that the rebellious nature is an extremely important point that should not be ruled out when considering why someone starts something young. [quote name='ScirosDarkblade']One thing that legalizing marijuana would hopefully reduce is the amount of money wasted on the "war on drugs." There's a lot of other things our law enforcement and other such agencies could worry about that are more important than your typical marijuana smoker. [/quote]Absolutely. One of the main reasons that I support legalizing pot is because it would free up money spent in society and allow us to put it toward things that are much more important and crucial. Like I mentioned earlier, though, that's one of the stronger points for why it probably won't be legalized: people will lose money. Pot smoking would become the recreational drug of choice because it is safer than alcohol and in some cases may help to break the addiction of cigarettes, and in turn the alcohol and tobacco lobbies will lose money; law enforcement and government agencies get a lot of funding in order to fight marijuana, which instead would not be receiving money from the taxpayers; pot prices will go down and in turn drug dealers lose money, and even trial lawyers will be crushed by the lack of criminals. [quote][i]Really the most valid reason for keeping it illegal is that possibly more adults (that can afford marijuana at whatever price) will be smoking it, and not too responsibly either, which may lead to more automobile accidents, etc. That's not something I'd considered before. But, now that I have, I think that it's possible to get around that issue, at least partially, but making smoking marijuana while driving a criminal offense (or something along those lines). Some sort of enforcement regulations that would curb the amount that smoking mj and driving is done.[/i][/QUOTE]When talking about responsibility, it's no different than that of alcohol usage. I'd love for, and even support, individuals to be cracked down hard for smoking while driving and such if the drug became legal. [QUOTE=James][color=#707875]Basically though, if you make it legal but you put regulations in, you're really only taking one step forward and one step back. You might as well just keep it illegal. Basically I think that people are going to seek out the drug if they want it, regardless of the legality. However, the illegal factor will hopefully make it tougher for most people to locate it and it may help to deter those who would otherwise give it a try.[/color][/quote]Despite the inevitable restrictions that would come with legalizing marijuana, it wouldn't be a lost cause. It would still mean that you could not be arrested for the possession of a single joint, and like I mentioned before, it would immediately eliminate the illegal Pot market and get rid of crime associated with it, allowing law enforcement to concentrate on robbers, rapists, and murderers. [quote][color=#707875][i]Saying that people don't smoke it as much as cigarettes is kind of irrelevant I think. Again, we can't go in there and make sure that people only smoke a certain amount. You can't control that, you can only have some level of control over access in the first place (and prosecution of those who produce and sell).[/i][/color][/quote]It kind of depends on what you mean. Of course we can't control how often an individual would smoke pot, even though smoking a lot may or may not lead to devastating effects. It's no different that what we do for cigarettes and alcohol now in warning that if you do it, avoid using it excessively. Everything should be done in moderation, etc. etc. The thing about cigarettes and alcohol, however, is that they are physically and mentally addictive and are proven to be harmful, so obviously they are more likely to be done frequently and more likely to have those dangerous effects that make them relevant to this discussion. [quote][color=#707875][i]I think the biggest argument against legalization, from my standpoint, is that you are potentially opening the floodgates. Not to say that everyone will become a weed addict or something, but clearly, a [i]lot[/i] more people would have free access. And none of us would do that with any other harmful product -- you wouldn't take a prescription drug that can have harmful side effects and start selling it to anyone and everyone without a prescription.[/i][/color][/QUOTE]That's true. I know a ton of people who would try the drug if it was legalized based on what they know about it. A lot of them don't do it solely because they don't want any trouble with the law. I know that this wasn't exactly the point you were trying to make, but I just wanted to share that. lol [quote name='Harry']Have you ever seen someone who's smoked weed frequently? They lose their short term memory, it's hard for them to concentrate, and other things. That's what happened to one of my friends and he's still a worthless stoner several years after High School.[/quote]Yeah, this is something else I wanted to address. By smoking marijuana, you have a lot of responsibility, such as whether to concentrate on pot or your studies. Those who choose the former don't have as good short term memory, and after 15 years of smoking, they are still going to act like a 16 year old. I was listening to this radio show called Love Line a little while ago and Adam Carolla was talking about this, and he basically said that once you're fully grown, out of college, and don't have any further schooling, that the potential risks from marijuana are just about [b]zero[/b]. [QUOTE=Solo Tremaine][color=#503f86]'Feel' in this case seems like a physical basis to me. You can experience it with your mind, but the mind by nature is part of the body anyway, so nothing can be purely one or the other. An addiction isn't either mental or physical- it's a balance of both. You can become addicted to pretty much anything if your need for said substance isn't satiated. Why do people smoke in the first place- most people do it for the initial hit which as has already been said, is due to the ammonia in the cigarettes. I understand that 'pure' marijuana shouldn't have that in it, but the point is it is the body's chemical imbalance that causes the high in the first place. If you want to get high, it's because your body feels in need of something to pick it up. The decision to do it may be a cognitive thing, but the initial drive to have it is always physical. That's the same with pretty much anything else- caffiene, nicotine, food, sex... you name it, every drive has some kind of physical drive behind it.[/color][/quote]An addiction is both mental and physical. You're right. And if your body cannot become physically dependant on marijuana, then it should be easier to control, right? "Pot is not an addictive drug. For those who claim it is, anything is theoretically addictive, and there are some people who can become addicted to spring water. So to put it in perspective, Pot is less addictive than coffee. I have become addicted to coffee myself and have broken the habit. You get mild headaches for a few days. I have never had any symptoms for withdrawal from Pot." [QUOTE][color=#503f86][i]Many UK politicians have already admitted to having taken cannabis during their University years, and I sincerely doubt there is a single one of them that hasn't. They haven't been labelled as 'druggies' because everyone else has done it to. For anyone to carry out a character assassination on that level here would certainly be hypocritical; I'm not sure what it's like in the States, though.[/i][/color][/quote]Really? That's insane. I won't say that it's entirely that surprising that they tried it, but the fact that they have admitted it and that it's so well known is astonishing in and of itself, heh. I would be interested to know where they stand on the subject of legalizing marijuana, and marijuana in general.[/font] [QUOTE][color=#503f86][i]Marijuana carries [b]exactly the same health risks as smoking[/b] because you are inhaling carbon monoxide and dioxide which are both serious carcinogens. They may not be laced with ammonia or rat poison but the fact is that you're still ingesting poisonous chemicals into your body. Smokers cough- cannabis users get it to because [i]they smoke it.[/i] There's no debate over the heath risks of smoking anything- this is only a comparative of the effects of cannabis and smoking which have different effects on the chemicals inside the body but still do exactly the same things to your lungs. Except marijuana tar is about five times more concentrated.[/i][/color][/quote]The fact of the matter is that the health risks for cigarettes and the poisons that they are laced with go hand in hand. Marijuana has [i]similar[/i] risks to cigarettes because of the smoke, but they are in no way exactly the same because of the risks from the poisons. Hell, there are safer methods in smoking marijuana than just getting it out of a joint. A water bong filters out bad chemicals, smoking it with a magnifying glass takes the chemicals from a lighter out of the equation, and eating it with food gets rid of the smoke issue altogether, to name a few. [QUOTE][i][color=#503f86]Perhaps so, but they will still have an effect on the body for the duration of their stay, some of which include:[/color][/i] [i]-Decreased attention span[/i] [i]-Decreased coordination[/i] [i]-Decreased motor control[/i] [i]-Decreased Short-Term Memory (which may have been what people refer to when talking about 'brain' damage- it affects the area known as the hippocampus)[/i] [i]-Increased appetite (possibly)[/i] [i]-Changes in sensory awareness[/i] [i]-Increased bronchodilation[/i] [i]-Analgesia[/i] [i]-Iecreased body temperature[/i] [i]-Decreased libido & sperm count (high doses, heh)[/i] [i]-Decreased nausea, vomiting[/i] [i]-Decreased fertility (high doses again)[/i][/quote]They do have an effect on the body during the high, which is the entire point of the drug. But when you get right down to it, are these effects actually bad (other than in frequent high does)? They just describe what your body does when you get high. I've never heard of nausea and vomiting, though, but I suppose it's different for different people. [QUOTE][color=#503f86][i]Drunk-driving is only so prevalent because alcohol is so widely available on a legal standing. Legalise marijuana and you'll probably have the same problem as an added bonus to drinking. I doubt that just because marijuana would be legalised, it would decrease people's motivation to drink. If anything they'd drink more if the claims that cannabis increases your appetite are accurate (and I'm not saying they are). but the point is that the binge drinking culture will always stick- people smoke cigarettes constantly in pubs and clubs while downing drinks- what makes you think cannabis will be any different there?[/i][i][/color][/quote][/i] I think people who look to alcohol as a legal solution to drowning their troubles and abuse it have a very good chance of switching to pot because it's clearly so much safer. As such, drunk driving will go down, and pot driving very well might replace it, but I'm not saying that this is something that I support. I don't have any evidence to back this up, but I do believe that drunk driving, as opposed to with marijuana, is much more likely to lead to an accident. [QUOTE][color=#503f86][i]The research also said that everyone who had done harder drugs had done marijuana at some point. So if you're going to do serious drugs the chances are you're going to do anything including the stuff less 'potent', but the fact is if you're willing to do an illegal substance you are [i]more likely[/i] to try something more illegal especially if you've an addictive personality, even if it's only the small majority of people who do so.[/i][/color][/quote]You answered your question right there. Only a very small number of marijuana users go on to harder drugs. [b]Most[/b] pot users never do any other drug. Once again, anti-weed organizations will use this to skew facts in their advantage. Marijuana has nothing to do with it, because those with the addictive personalities would have gone on to harder drugs regardless of whether or not it even existed. [QUOTE][color=#503f86][i]I find that incredibly hard to believe, sorry. That's almost like willing yourself not to get fat after eating a whole chocolate gateau. When people are high, their own self-perception alters and they ca't see things in the same way as others do. Likewise if two people get high at the same time they believe they're experiencing great inspirational conversation but are actually just in the same state of mind as each other.[/i][/color][/quote]I can't prove it for sure, but I do believe that mindset plays a role in some way or another. If you relax and are willing to accept what comes at you, it is more likely that the high from the marijuana will have a stronger effect on you than, say, someone who has a stronger immunity and wants to see if they can overcome the effects. This is why I believe that most people don't get high the first time they smoke. In closing, I want to say that I've been in your shoes before and can understand what you're saying. Marijuana is bad for you. It can mess up your lungs and stuff from smoke. If smoked frequently, pot can have a tar intake of as much as seven times that of cigarettes. But what a lot of people don't realize is that the kind of stuff that they consume on a daily basis is bad as well. My friend who smokes a good deal of marijuana has given up soda because, and I quote, "it's bad for you." His brother who, in all likeliness, is more of a stoner than he is eats nothing but a couple apples for lunch because, "it's good for you." Fatty foods are bad. Caffeine is bad. Moderation is the key. In this case, I believe that the positive outweighs the negative. Quotes were taken from: [url="http://www.perkel.com/politics/issues/pot.htm"]http://www.perkel.com/politics/issues/pot.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 If you look at it this way you will see where a lot of legalizing wishes come from. Without it being sold on the streets, the chances of coming into contact with cocaine, heroin, etc will be slim, unless you go looking for them specifically. With it being sold on the streets there is a higher chance to come into contact with these drugs. Now if by gateway drug you mean that they may come into contact with other drugs while buying it, then I can understand this theory. But it certainly doesn't lead you to wanting to try another drug. The closest thing to a gateway drug is in the way I explained. They come into contact with other drugs because their dealer most likely doesn't just sell marijuana. Even then many don't try the harder stuff. With government regulation lacing weed will not be as common. It is laced so dealers can make more profit. Without the dealers selling marijuana they won't be lacing anything besides their other stuff. Without the person going to these dealers they won't come into contact with any other drugs, thus breaking down this so called gateway drug. It isn't a gateway drug. Only in the way that I explained. Just because heroin users have smoked marijuana means nothing. When pot usage went down or up, harder drugs stayed the same. If you do heroin or cocaine or something, it is a given that you will smoke marijuana here and there. It is the least harmful of these so-called bad drugs. The only way that marijuana will play any form in schizophrenia is if you are all ready predetermined to have it. Meaning it runs in your family or you have it all ready. There are have been no studies that have proven that marijuana causes schizophrenia is those without it in their family. It is a minor psychoactive drug out there. If you want to say a drug will cause schizophrenia look at PCP, not marijuana. Yes it causes short-term memory loss. But really, many people just smoke and watch movies, listen to music and chill with friends. They don't do anything that requires them to remember important facts. Hell, I had problems remembering things way before I tried pot. I couldn't remember what I did a week before. Only if you do something that actually requires your attention will the short-term memory loss have a huge impact. Otherwise not remembering a movie or what you talked about with a friend isn't as important. As Syke said, there are ways more ways to smoke pot. Ingestion is a very safe way to get high compared to smoking. It gives you a completely different high without the smoke in your lungs. A pipe clears out resin/tar. It accumulates on the sides of your pipe, so you know you aren't smoking any of that crap. Granted some gets through of course, but more is trapped on the sides. As Syke said, a water bong helps clear out the bad stuff too when the smoke travels through the water. It filters it out giving a nice smooth smoke. A vaporizer is healthier than all those, except for eating. You just heat the weed up until the THC itself rises out and you inhale that. There are many ways to smoke weed that are less harmful than cigarettes. I've never heard of nausea nor vomiting. And there are no conclusive tests to show it lowers sperm count. Go onto that site I posted and search through the news articles and the forums. You will see very many people much more knowledgeable on this subject than I. I am basically saying what they are saying, without as much detail . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 cent Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 ya I seen in an early post that. Not everyone does marijuana becaue your breaking a law well because you feel depressed or something. Well this is very true but if you look at, most of the people who do it. Really are trying to rebel against something because there angry. Well see if your angry at you parents what do you do? You rebel against them, it's simple because we all do it. See some of you say its because there angry or depressed, well when your depressed your sad about something for a long time, like breaking up with one you truly loved will cause depression so you go to rebel against them to make them feel bad for you so they will come back. See it's very simple but you guys just don't seem to get it. 50 out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 [size=1]What if we look at this from another side: aside from medical uses, what good does marijuana do? It obviously has problems...but lets look at it's good aspects, if any. If you can dredge up some overall positive and otherwise [through safer etc. measures] unatainable effect of marijuana...go right ahead. I'd be interested.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo Tremaine Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 [quote name='Syk3']Really? That's insane. I won't say that it's entirely that surprising that they tried it, but the fact that they have admitted it and that it's so well known is astonishing in and of itself, heh. I would be interested to know where they stand on the subject of legalizing marijuana, and marijuana in general.[/quote][color=#503f86]I'm not too sure where they stand individually, but it's all on a party system here anyway, rather than individual candidates. The drug's already had its status lowered to a Class C drug (as opposed to A or B, which contain things like ecstacy and heroin). So it's still illegal, but carries less of a sentence with it.[/color] [QUOTE]They do have an effect on the body during the high, which is the entire point of the drug. But when you get right down to it, are these effects actually bad (other than in frequent high does)? They just describe what your body does when you get high. I've never heard of nausea and vomiting, though, but I suppose it's different for different people.[/QUOTE][color=#503f86]Those were the effects of THC (which you said yourself could be stored in the body for up to three months if smoking was done on a regular basis), not the joints themselves.[/color] [color=#503f86]But even at a low rate of one joint a day for a few weeks, the drug can lead to shrinkage and death of brain cells. The connections between the brain cells will be altered, which in turn leads to a change in the way cannabis users see themselves and everyone around them- often they become demotivated, which would confound those who use tham as an escape from other burns of society (information from a newspaper article by Susan Greenfield, Professor of Pharmacology at Oxford University, Director of the Royal Institute and who has studied the brain for over 30 years).[/color] [QUOTE]I think people who look to alcohol as a legal solution to drowning their troubles and abuse it have a very good chance of switching to pot because it's clearly so much safer. As such, drunk driving will go down, and pot driving very well might replace it, but I'm saying that this is something that I support. I don't have any evidence to back this up, but I do believe that drunk driving, as opposed to with marijuana, is much more likely to lead to an accident.[/QUOTE][color=#503f86]No no no no no, not in th UK. There's a [i]huge[/i] culture of binge-drinking for fun, not for trying to drink away problems. People (especially younger people and adults) go out specifically to get drunk and will happily smoke at the same time. People will continue to follow that traditions that they know, but will simply swap the cigarettes for the cannabis because it's new and supposedly better, which leads to a much nastier combination than cigarettes and alcohol in terms of driving safety. That said, there is a proportion of people who use alcohol to dive into unreality to get away from problems. But letting them take cannabis instead will not change their situation for the better. You need about 7,000 milligrams of alcohol to achieve the desired mind-altering effect of being drunk and the relaxation that comes with it. Cannabis needs only 0.3 milligrams to achieve the same desired effect, and the skills you need for driving are impaired for a full 24 hours after smoking them. A study made on airline pilots showed that cannabis was still influencing the brain up to 50 hours after a single joint. A joint is a far quicker and cheaper way to induce nirvana, so for your money you can get far greater amount of chemical with the same essential effect on the brain. Drugs can also cause sensations of paranoia, disorientation and panic, which, setting people off against each other in clubs, bars and on the road could be a lethal combination. Yes, it affects people in different ways, but you can't blow off the fact that these effects [i]will[/i] happen in people, however small the minority may be. A report on Australia's drug and alcohol usage said that: [QUOTE]A sixfold difference in marijuana/cannabis use is observed between drinkers and non-drinkers, while drinkers have a smoking prevalence about twice that of non-drinkers.[/QUOTE]It's been shown in numerous studies that while cannabis on its own may not have a high lethal toxicity, when used in conjunction with alcohol they have an additive effect on each other, and a combined use with that and other drugs can increase the chances of overdosing on other things.[/color] [QUOTE]The fact of the matter is that the health risks for cigarettes and the poisons that they are laced with go hand in hand. Marijuana has [i]similar[/i] risks to cigarettes because of the smoke, but they are in no way exactly the same because of the risks from the poisons. Hell, there are safer methods in smoking marijuana than just getting it out of a joint. A water bong filters out bad chemicals, smoking it with a magnifying glass takes the chemicals from a lighter out of the equation, and eating it with food gets rid of the smoke issue altogether, to name a few. [/QUOTE][color=#503f86]Okay, let's say cannabis does get legalised to the same extent as cigarettes, then. That means manufacturers can sell them legally en mass in the same way they do with the cigarettes, which means they'll add as many chemicals as they can to make their brand better than anyone else's, bringing the health risks with regards to the toxins up to the same level. Of course, if it's legalised to the same extent as in Holland that shouldn't be too much of an issue, but I sincerely doubt every marijuana dealer is as clean as they make out to be- if someone likes their brand more than someone else's, the chanced are it's been laced. And I don't think that's particularly uncommon. So it might free up crime-fighting services and save money used for the fight on narcotics. That's an incredibly defeatist point of view-you're saying we should let criminals get away with what they've been doing for so many years? The illicit trading won't stop, and even if it were licensed and heavily taxed then they'd be far more expensive than anything you could buy on the streets from your local drug dealer. Why bother spending £20 on something when you could spend £5 on the same amount? The criminal dealers would make millions, and that gives them greater scope to perform more serious crimes and deal much more expensive, harder drugs. Selective legalisation in Holland hasn't worked as well as some studies suggest, and the repercussions are felt by other countries. 80 per cent of the heroin seized by UK customs officials has come from Holland, and this is as a direct result of their cannabis legalisation. Between 198 and 1997 there's been a 50% increase in heroin addiction, while the level of cocaine use by 14-16 year olds is the highest in Europe. If cannabis isn't the cause of this, then it has to be something to do with the mixed messages the state sends out as a result of the decriminalisation: While you're trying to persuade them that underage smoking is illegal, you're opening up a whole new debate of substance abuse encouragement. From an editorial in the Daily Mail: "The lagalisation of cannabis would have an explosive effect on those sections of society- i.e. the underclass -which have the most to lose. Obviously, many people smoke cannabis, but at least the disapproval of the law acts as a sort of brake, so long as the police continue to arrest teenagers smoking cannabis. Jettison that law and usage is bound to increase among the most vulnerable." When I went to Amsterdam there were people on the streets in broad daylight asking you if you wanted to buy cocain or heroine. Whether that's as a result of cannabis being legalised I don't know, but it was certainly unpleasant. My guess is they prey on tourists who think that because cannabis is legal there, it entitles them to take more harmful drugs as well. Which leads me to this point: [QUOTE]You answered your question right there. Only a very small number of marijuana users go on to harder drugs. [b]Most[/b] pot users never do any other drug. Once again, anti-weed organizations will use this to skew facts in their advantage. Marijuana has nothing to do with it, because those with the addictive personalities would have gone on to harder drugs regardless of whether or not it even existed.[/QUOTE]Claims on both sides of this argument are highly subjective- since marijuana is illegal it's unclear whether the illigal use of that and harder drugs in combination is as a result of the illegal activity or the plant's high-inducing effects. In Holland the harder drug use seems to have decreased, but looking at selective studies on places in North America it seems that there is still a [i]chance[/i], if only a small one that people will go on to do harder drugs. I'm not saying it's always a gateway drug but if anything I think it will make you [i]more likely[/i] to try something else, even if you eventually decide not to. [/color][quote name='Stephen Glover, Daily Mail Editorial']It may not be a 'gateway' drug for users with well regulated lives, but for those who feel that they have been forgotten by society, those without hope or prospects, cannabis is much more likely to be a getway to drugs that offer an even more dramatic escape from reality.[/quote][color=#503f86] A report released by the US Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration in 2002 said that "the younger children are when they first use marijuana, the more likely they are to use cocaine and heroin and become dependent on drugs as adults. It concludes that postponing people's first use could prevent progression to other illicit drugs." [/color][quote name='New Scientist vol 175 issue 2359 - 07 September 2002, page 6']"These findings are of grave concern because studies show smoking marijuana leads to changes in the brain similar to those caused by cocaine, heroin and alcohol," says Charles Curie of the administration. "Heavy marijuana abuse impairs the ability of young people to retain information during their peak learning years when their brains are still developing."[/quote][COLOR=#503F86]So young people are probably more susceptible to it than adults. And since many smokers start at the age of about 13/14, this could be quite a damaging prospect unless underage smoking is cracked down on considerably. But making cannabis more widely available will not stop the problem from ocurring in the first place.[/COLOR][color=#503f86] To quote [url="http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/ledain/cannabis_and_other_drugs.htm"]this site[/url]:[/color] [QUOTE]In summary, a positive statistical relationship exists between the use of cannabis and a variety of other psychoactive drugs. Marijuana is often the first illicit drug (other than alcohol and tobacco in adolescence) taken by multi-drug users. The role of cannabis, if any, in the progression to other drugs is not yet well understood; it is unclear whether it plays a specific predisposing role, or is causally unrelated to other drug use and is often used earlier simply because of its wider availability and social acceptance. Specific pharmacological properties of marijuana (or any other drug) which might lead to a need or craving for other drugs have not been discovered. It would appear that dynamic and changing social and personal factors play the dominant role in the multi-drug-using patterns reported, and that the specific pharmacology of the compounds involved is secondary.[/QUOTE][color=#503f86]Hence, trying to support an argument for either side is still relatiely unsteady. But this site [url="http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v00.n1533.a05.html"]here[/url] perhaps shows why I'm more concerned about this. I'll admit that were cannabis legal already then I may not think them that different to cigarettes, but having them labelled as an illegal drug carries with it dogmas that any other illegal drug does, and having been brought up with a dad who sees the effects of chronic drug-users almostv every day I can safely say that it's an area I never want to go into. But I think if children are willing to do something illegal in a sense of rebellion, once they've done one illegal thing then what's to stop them wanting another to rebel even further? Adult and even late teen use of cannabis is probably more responsible than that in those aged 13-17 because they understand more what they're trying to do and its consequences. The same Australian report I quoted earlier also said this: [QUOTE]Users of marijuana/cannabis appeared to have much higher prevalence of other recent drug use compared with non-users of marijuana/cannabis (Table 11.3). While there was only a moderate difference observed in alcohol prevalence among the user and non-user groups, tobacco prevalence was three times higher in marijuana/cannabis users compared with nonusers (57.0% and 18.2% respectively). This was consistent with smoking behaviour, as ?joints? were the most common form of marijuana/cannabis consumption. There were up to 100-fold differences in prevalence for drugs such as hallucinogens. The gradients were generally larger for females than males. The relatively high use of amphetamines and ecstasy among marijuana/cannabis users (compared with non-users, or the general population) suggests a user group for which all three substances are available and used.[/QUOTE]And this was a 2002 study- much more recent than the ones on Marijuana.com's site.[/color] [quote name='Zeta']And there are no conclusive tests to show it lowers sperm count.[/quote][color=#503f86]Actually, there is. Take a look at [url="http://www.spermconfirm.com/MARIJUANA.html"]this site[/url]. [url="http://www.talktofrank.com/azofdrugs/C/Cannabis.aspx"]This site[/url], set up by government health organisations, goes over the effects of cannabis completely, including the decrease of sperm count. Granted, once you stop cannabis smoking, as with any other drug, a detox should set you body relatively back to normal, but it still has an effect.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Really, I don't even see why there's a debate over this. The actual physical and mental impairments of both Nicotine and marijuana cannot be contested, and they're both dreadfully harmful in their own particular ways. I mean, let's face the facts. They're both horrible for a person's health and have some pretty nasty adverse reactions for each of them. Why is there a debate about which is worse, or which should be legalized over the other? They're both absolutely dreadful on various levels, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadSeraphim Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 [QUOTE=Syk3][font=verdana] I still am trying to figure out what you mean by "severe mental side effects". While it is true that short term effects include memory loss, beer has the same effect, which is temporary and wears off completely. In no way does pot have long term effects on the brain. If you check out the site in my first post, you'll read that after 25 years of smoking marijuana, the author still tests as a genius on IQ tests, and claims that his mental abilities have actually increased over the years. It's also true, however, that it affects each person differently. "Obviously, if you have tried Marijuana and it had a bad effect on you, don't continue to use it."[/font] [/QUOTE] [COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial]Marijuana, especially hydro but any ole home grown will do it as well, can cause paranoid pscitzophrenia. It's rare, but it happens, as my uncle is living proof and has to be medicated every day of his life to help with the disease. My stance on this issue is that, if it is to be legalized, it should be confied to medicinal use. Whether you like it or not, marijuana IS as dangerous as cigarettes to your health. I mean... with bongs, not only are you inhaling fumes that can seriously **** with your head, but your inhaling moisture that can (and does) collect on the lungs over time. Not a good thing. Also, one joint of marijuana has the tar equivalent of [b]40 mild cigarettes[/b]. That's rather huge in my book... Not to mention, as has been said before, the effects it can have on short term memory. The **** has shot my father's short term to bits. If it were medicinal the people using it would be being monitored by physicians all the time anyway, so any harmful side effects would be spotted quickly, and the person would be weened off the drug. That way the person, if it does start messing with their mind, can lessen the impact it has...[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 [QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]What if we look at this from another side: aside from medical uses, what good does marijuana do? It obviously has problems...but lets look at it's good aspects, if any. If you can dredge up some overall positive and otherwise [through safer etc. measures] unatainable effect of marijuana...go right ahead. I'd be interested.[/size][/QUOTE] What good does alcohol or cigarettes do? They are legal. The thing with weed though is that you don't have to add anything to it to make it better. You can really only lace it with other illegal drugs. Granted you can do it with other chemicals and stuff, but that is highly unlikely. It all depends on how you grow it. Growing determines how good of stuff it will be. Companies wouldn't have to add anything at all. A lot of people buy marijuana because it is less likely to be laced with something than lets say cocaine or heroin. If they find out companies would be lacing it, I highly doubt they would smoke it. [QUOTE]Marijuana, especially hydro but any ole home grown will do it as well, can cause paranoid pscitzophrenia. It's rare, but it happens, as my uncle is living proof and has to be medicated every day of his life to help with the disease.[/QUOTE] There have been no studies to say this is true. Sorry man, I just ain't buying that it was because of weed. He is probably like the only one to get paranoid schizophrenia because of just smoking.(Im assuming here it doesn't run in your family or anything) Just not buying it. Your father probably had something else going on in his brain, my apologies if that sounded rude. It doesn't cause it. It only causes problems with it if it runs in your family, or he all ready had it without any foreknowledge. There must have been something going on, possibly depression or something, to cause him to get paranoid schizophrenia. I highly doubt it was because of the weed. We debate because we can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inari Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 [quote name='Baron Samedi']What if we look at this from another side: aside from medical uses, what good does marijuana do?[/quote] [COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]What good do cigarettes or alcohol do? Not much aside from the claim that red wine helps with lower blood pressure. The real question is why should these potentially harmful products be legalized and the one word answer is [B]LIBERTY[/B]. We have the liberty to get in a car when the death rate due to car crashes is tremendous. We have the liberty to live in polluted cities and ruin our lungs. We have the liberty to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol even though these habits are unhealthy. We have the liberty to have unprotected sex between consenting adults, even with the threat of AIDS and other STDs. People should be able to choose for themselves what "risky" they want to participate in and should suffer the consequences of their actions. If marijuana was legalized I personally would choose not to use it because of the harmful side-affects, but I feel that I should have the liberty to decide that for myself. [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Wow. You put into words what I haven't been able to. I feel the same way. There is a quote by President Jefferson I believe that sums up what was just said, I'll have to find it. I agree completely with your no good comes from alcohol or cigarettes. Prohibition didn't work. Making marijuana illegal isn't working either. A lot of those in jail are probably first time offenses due to marijuana. Just this week I found out that about 71% of the people in jail are there for first time offenses with drugs. Though I believe that is out of date from a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrist cutter Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 [quote name='Inari']What good do cigarettes or alcohol do?[/quote] None. But you can't just ban them now. It's a little late for that; it's not going to stop anybody. They put a tax on cigarettes, and what did people do? They started ordering from places that would cut the tax. [quote name='Inari]The real question is why should these potentially harmful products be legalized and the one word answer is [B]LIBERTY[/B'].[/quote] I suppose we should have the liberty to kill people too? I don't get what your point is. Having a law against substances that will kill you is a bad thing? Like I said, people didn't realize the effects of cigarettes and alcohol and such when they were making laws. And as we've seen from "prohibition", banning them is basically impossible at this point. The reason they're legal is because we can't do much to stop them at this point. [quote name='Inari']We have the liberty to get in a car when the death rate due to car crashes is tremendous.[/quote] Yeah, let's ban cars. Good plan :rolleyes: Yes the death rate in cars is high, but they serve a purpose. They are the backbone of America at this point, until we can develop something else. [quote name='Inari']People should be able to choose for themselves what "risky" they want to participate in and should suffer the consequences of their actions.[/quote] Yes, because doing pot only affects the user after all. "And if you can't tell, I was being sarcastic." It's not just "you do pot for awhile and then you die early." It fucks you up which in turn fucks with everyone else. Having sex is a totally different situation (though I agree we need more laws regarding who can and cannot have sex). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epitome Posted October 22, 2004 Author Share Posted October 22, 2004 [size=1]Okay, wrist cutter you make some very good points, all of you do. And I think everyone is right in this thread... there really is no wrong answer. And now that I have read what you guys think, I think I agree with the not-legalizing more. I realize that kids will still do it even if it legalized, so no point in doing that, and keeping it legalized will definatley lead to worse things. But now I have to do a public policy project on why I think it should be legalized... going to have to change that... lol.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syk3 Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 [QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]What if we look at this from another side: aside from medical uses, what good does marijuana do? It obviously has problems...but lets look at it's good aspects, if any. If you can dredge up some overall positive and otherwise [through safer etc. measures] unatainable effect of marijuana...go right ahead. I'd be interested.[/size][/QUOTE]The majority of the positive effect come from the medical aspect, that's true. The understanding of marijuana on the human body is crucial for an important new medicine that could benefit millions of people, creating a very distinct field of research. Already, the herb has been found to "be useful in treating pain, nausea and appetite loss caused by advanced cancer and AIDS," and are also shown help with glaucoma and arthritis. Effects caused by THC, such as short term memory loss, also help researchers study different aspects of and changes in the human brain. After you cover the medical standpoint, however, it gets down to the individual and how they are affected by the drug. In many cases, it can stimulate creativity, not only artistically but in writing and other forms that benifit from imaginative thinking. It makes you feel good and calms you down, as well as enhances the fun for a number of activities. Of course, this is subjective thinking, but it's generally true as well. On marijuana, you could see a problem from a different perspective, and often times it will break the cycle and allow you to move on. If you want to be responsible in getting high, pot is a good choice, due to it being much safer than other drugs. [quote name='Solo Tremaine][color=#503f86']I'm not too sure where they stand individually, but it's all on a party system here anyway, rather than individual candidates. The drug's already had its status lowered to a Class C drug (as opposed to A or B, which contain things like ecstacy and heroin). So it's still illegal, but carries less of a sentence with it.[/color][/quote]As it should. I don't think I really need to go into that. [color=#503f86][color=#000000][quote][i][/color]Those were the effects of THC (which you said yourself could be stored in the body for up to three months if smoking was done on a regular basis), not the joints themselves.[/color][/i][/quote][color=#503f86][color=black]Yeah, but you know. THC is in the joint and the high I was talking about was from the drug anyway. Whether you[/color][/color][color=black] say the THC caused the high or the marijuana did, we're talking about the same thing.[/color] [color=#503f86][color=black][quote][i][/color]No no no no no, not in th UK. There's a [i]huge[/i] culture of binge-drinking for fun, not for trying to drink away problems. People (especially younger people and adults) go out specifically to get drunk and will happily smoke at the same time. People will continue to follow that traditions that they know, but will simply swap the cigarettes for the cannabis because it's new and supposedly better, which leads to a much nastier combination than cigarettes and alcohol in terms of driving safety.[/color][/i][/quote][color=black]Well if that's the case, in that drinking is part of the culture, not only would the combination of that and marijuana be bad for driving, but it's extremely dangerous health-wise. You've heard of pot smokers getting the munchies. Well imagine drinking and drinking until you're dead from alcohol poisoning and don't even know it. It is NEVER safe to drink and smoke pot.[/color] [color=#503f86][color=black][quote][i][/color]That said, there is a proportion of people who use alcohol to dive into unreality to get away from problems. But letting them take cannabis instead will not change their situation for the better. You need about 7,000 milligrams of alcohol to achieve the desired mind-altering effect of being drunk and the relaxation that comes with it. Cannabis needs only 0.3 milligrams to achieve the same desired effect, and the skills you need for driving are impaired for a full 24 hours after smoking them. A study made on airline pilots showed that cannabis was still influencing the brain up to 50 hours after a single joint. A joint is a far quicker and cheaper way to induce nirvana, so for your money you can get far greater amount of chemical with the same essential effect on the brain.[/color][/i][/quote][color=black]Well like I was saying before, I still think that law enforcement should crack down hard on smoking and driving, as [color=black]much if[/color] not moreso than alcohol. The only reason that I suggested that it might be slightly safer than drinking and driving is because a lot of my friends claim that sober people in the car have told them that they are great drivers when they are stoned. I don't know if similar remarks are made about drinking, but I'm just saying what I do know.[/color] [color=black][quote][i][/color][color=darkslateblue]Drugs can also cause sensations of paranoia, disorientation and panic, which, setting people off against each other in clubs, bars and on the road could be a lethal combination. Yes, it affects people in different ways, but you can't blow off the fact that these effects [i]will[/i] happen in people, however small the minority may be.[/color][/i][/quote][color=black]This is exactly the kind of thinking that got marijuana prohibited in the 30s. Around the time of Mexican immagration to the US, a man named Harry Aslinger, who worked for the government, used marijuana as an excuse to explain their radical behavior (the name itself was created to sound hispanic). Injecting 300 dogs with the drug, his finding of 2 dogs who had died and belief that humans were kind of close to dogs, led him to produce the following statement which had the herb prohibited in the United States: "Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death." Not only that, but Aslinger was appointed to the government by, and known to be cousins with, a man who owned a rope company that was in rivalry to one that used hemp. I'm not sure how it was banned in your own country, but I can speak for America. I also don't see bar fights as a cause for concern. While it does affect people differently, marijuana generally calms someone down, and slows them down as well, rather than speed them up and make them want to fight. It does kind of make you paranoid, though, making you think that you're being too loud or not being cautious enough for someone to possible catch you.[/color] [color=#503f86] [/color][color=#503f86][color=black][quote][i][/color]Okay, let's say cannabis does get legalised to the same extent as cigarettes, then. That means manufacturers can sell them legally en mass in the same way they do with the cigarettes, which means they'll add as many chemicals as they can to make their brand better than anyone else's, bringing the health risks with regards to the toxins up to the same level. Of course, if it's legalised to the same extent as in Holland that shouldn't be too much of an issue, but I sincerely doubt every marijuana dealer is as clean as they make out to be- if someone likes their brand more than someone else's, the chanced are it's been laced. And I don't think that's particularly uncommon.[/color][/i][/quote][color=#503f86][color=black]Perhaps, but I think that there would be an extremely high demend for straight marijuana to the point where users wouldn't buy it if it had something laced in it. Why fix something if it's not broken? You never know, though.[/color] [color=black][quote][i][/color]So it might free up crime-fighting services and save money used for the fight on narcotics. That's an incredibly defeatist point of view-you're saying we should let criminals get away with what they've been doing for so many years? The illicit trading won't stop, and even if it were licensed and heavily taxed then they'd be far more expensive than anything you could buy on the streets from your local drug dealer. Why bother spending £20 on something when you could spend £5 on the same amount? The criminal dealers would make millions, and that gives them greater scope to perform more serious crimes and deal much more expensive, harder drugs.[/color][/i][/quote][color=black]Once it becomes legal, there would be no point in persecuting these dealers. I'm not saying to leave the dealers alone who sell harder drugs, and it they sell both, of course they would be punished as well. If they did tax it, you never know how close it would be to what you can buy it for now. Sure, there's no tax, but the quality and whether it's home grown, and the fact that it's illegal in the first place, all raise the price, perhaps higher than what you could get from a mass produced joint.[/color] [color=black][quote][i][/color][color=darkslateblue]Selective legalisation in Holland hasn't worked as well as some studies suggest, and the repercussions are felt by other countries. 80 per cent of the heroin seized by UK customs officials has come from Holland, and this is as a direct result of their cannabis legalisation. Between 198 and 1997 there's been a 50% increase in heroin addiction, while the level of cocaine use by 14-16 year olds is the highest in Europe. If cannabis isn't the cause of this, then it has to be something to do with the mixed messages the state sends out as a result of the decriminalisation: While you're trying to persuade them that underage smoking is illegal, you're opening up a whole new debate of substance abuse encouragement.[/color][/i][/quote][color=black]Did you know that in Amsterdam they have special blue lights in public restrooms so that you can't see your veins to shoot up? I always thought that was interesting. It still doesn't change the fact that it's such a trashy country though. Marijuana doesn't cause this though, and they aren't ecouraging substance abuse in general.[/color] [color=black][quote][i][/color][color=darkslateblue]I'm not saying it's always a gateway drug but if anything I think it will make you [i]more likely[/i] to try something else, even if you eventually decide not to.[/color][/i][/quote][color=black]If that's your argument about how the illegal market of marijuana puts people in a higher risk of being pushed to try harder drugs, than legality would solve it, right?[/color] [quote name='Alan][color=indigo][size=1][font=Arial]Marijuana, especially hydro but any ole home grown will do it as well, can cause paranoid pscitzophrenia. It's rare, but it happens, as my uncle is living proof and has to be medicated every day of his life to help with the disease.[/font'][/size][/quote][/color] [color=indigo][size=1][font=Arial][color=black]In no disrespect to you or your uncle, he may have been predisposed to the disease despite his smoking marijuana. Even with frequent use, you can't take everyone who has schizophrenia, take the people who smoke pot, and use that to explain it.[/color] [font=Arial][size=1][color=black][quote][i][/color][/size][/font]Also, one joint of marijuana has the tar equivalent of [b]40 mild cigarettes[/b]. That's rather huge in my book... Not to mention, as has been said before, the effects it can have on short term memory. The **** has shot my father's short term to bits.[/font][/size][/i][/quote][color=black]Comparing one joint to 40 cigarettes is absolutely rediculous no matter how you look at it. I can safely say that when comparing a single joint to a single cigarette, the marijuana will potentially cause less harm.[/color][/color] [quote name='Inari][color=darkslateblue']If marijuana was legalized I personally would choose not to use it because of the harmful side-affects, but I feel that I should have the liberty to decide that for myself. [/color][/quote][color=black][font=Verdana]Excellent point, excellent point. Responsibility is the key.[/font] [quote name='wrist cutter']None. But you can't just ban them now. It's a little late for that; it's not going to stop anybody. They put a tax on cigarettes, and what did people do? They started ordering from places that would cut the tax.[/quote]Even so, how hypocritical is it to allow both when pot isn't any worse than either? What kind of message is that sending? And seeing how marijuana was prohibited in the first place, it's rather rediculous that it isn't legal now. [quote][i]I suppose we should have the liberty to kill people too? I don't get what your point is. Having a law against substances that will kill you is a bad thing?[/i][/quote]We have the option to do anything illegal, obviously, with risk of punishment by law, but in this case we are referring to the liberty to choose between doing things that are [b]legal[/b]. If pot was legalized, we'd have the choice of whether or not to do it without having the law telling us that if we do choose to do it we will be put in jail. If you're talking about the killing aspect of the drug, pot can't directly lead to death. o.O [quote][i]Like I said, people didn't realize the effects of cigarettes and alcohol and such when they were making laws.[/i][/quote]That is e[i]xactly[/i] the reason that pot was outlawed in the first place. [quote][i]It's not just "you do pot for awhile and then you die early." It fucks you up which in turn fucks with everyone else. Having sex is a totally different situation (though I agree we need more laws regarding who can and cannot have sex).[/i][/QUOTE]You choose to have sex, I don't get where you're going with that. I thought that you would be talking about harming someone in car accidents to support your opinion. This is why legalizing marijuana with caution, restrictions, and responsibility would be a good idea, and crack down hards on those who disobey that. Thank you for your sarcasm, wrist cutter.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 Is it just me or did the word "fucks" get through here 4...now 5 times? Anyway, one thing Syk is wrong about is that one joint is less harmful than one cigarette. That's not really true. Smoke 40 cigarettes in a row vs 40 joints in a row. Which one will be worse for you, eh? The thing is basically nobody smokes that many joints, whereas you have tons of [cigarette] chain smokers. Really the issue with legalizing marijuana isn't so much with regard to how harmful or harmless it is. You could go on all day about that, because some people thing just a little harmful = too harmful; you can't convince them otherwise. I think it's more a matter of *decriminalizing* it, if you know what I mean. Like I said before, the war on drugs is an extremely wasteful and worthless effort for the most part. Zeta pointed out the large amount of criminals serving time for drug offenses, and I am certain that many of those offenses involve dealing in marijuana. The thing is, it's [i]easy[/i] to "deal with marijuana," because there's a lot of users around and it gives enforcement something to do. But really there's other things to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven's Cloud Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 [color=indigo]I could start quoting aspects of this thread that I disagree with but it would take way to long. Plus, my points aren?t that different from so many of the members that have already posted in this thread. The density of the smoke in one joint is about triple that of a pure tobacco cigarette. Obviously this makes marijuana smoke quite a bit more harmful to the lungs than a pure tobacco cigarette. There are problems with this statistic (yes, it is a factual FDA statistic). One, it would be very difficult (not to mention astronomically expensive) for even the most avid pot smoker to smoke a half ounce of marijuana a day (roughly one quarter the weight of one pack of cigarettes). Two, a single filtered cigarette?s tobacco is laced with dozens of known cancer causing toxins, all of which are absent from most marijuana. In other words it would be hard as hell to develop emphysema of lung cancer from smoking pot. Sure, if you are an avid pot-head you probably aren?t going to be running any marathons, but that is derived more from sitting on the couch all day stoned than it is from lung ailments. It is also factual that there is no scientific evidence of marijuana having any physically addictive properties. Now, that isn?t to say it isn?t habit forming, it is. But so is locking yourself in your bedroom and playing video games for hours on end. If a person derives a sense of enjoyment from something it can become habit forming. While marijuana does can to short term memory loss and slight paranoia it has not been medically linked to cause any other mental ailments when used alone. There has never been a proven case of marijuana being linked to full blown schizophrenia without a hallucinogenic (mushrooms, acid, peyote, opium) involved. I also think that the whole ?gateway? drug aspect of marijuana is blown out of proportion. In my mind it is like stating that sex is a gateway to bestiality. Sure, I would believe that the majority of weirdoes that have sex with animals had sex with people first, but the majority of people that have sex don?t get their jollies humping a turtle. People of a certain mindset are going to experiment with different things, usually that predisposition has everything to do with that person?s environment and very little to do with smoking pot. Despite all of my pro-pot propaganda, I am actually against legalizing the substance for several reasons. First being that corporations would more than likely bastardize the product, much like they did with tobacco. I have a feeling that commercial marijuana would be loaded down with an overabundance of the same carcinogens that cigarettes contain. Second, marijuana grows anywhere and that means that, regardless of corporate involvement in the product, there would always be a huge underground market for it that is entirely un-taxable. Third, there is no definitive way to test for marijuana impairment. Since your motor skills are severely hampered while under the influence of marijuana you have a greater chance to create a vehicular accidents, and I don?t want pot legalized until there can be repercussions for its abuse. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inari Posted October 22, 2004 Share Posted October 22, 2004 [COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Wow! wrist cutter wrote a post longer than two lines! I'm impressed. (J/K :D ) [quote name='wrist cutter']I suppose we should have the liberty to kill people too?[/quote] I agree that liberty is a dangerous thing and that as we destroy the laws already in place we risk shaking the foundation that organized society is based on. With that said, I don't feel that legalizing marijuana will lead to the crumbling of our society and or legalizing murder. [quote name='wrist cutter']I don't get what your point is. Having a law against substances that will kill you is a bad thing??[/quote] My point is that marijuana should be legalized because people should have the right to judge for themselves whether or not to use this substance that [I]can[/I] kill you [I]if used incorrectly[/I]. [quote name='wrist cutter'](though I agree we need more laws regarding who can and cannot have sex).[/quote] I never meant or said that. I don't agree, accept in cases of people purposefully spreading AIDS to unknowing victims. Other than that it's not the government's job to regulate the sex of consenting adults. We have the liberty to choose for ourselves just like we should be able to with marijuana. [quote name='Zeta']Just this week I found out that about 71% of the people in jail are there for first time offenses with drugs.[/quote] That's interesting, and with the overcrowding in prisons this is an important issue. I'm not saying that abolishing laws is the answer to overcrowded jails, but legalizing marijuana would be beneficial to the situation. These people are only criminals according to unjust laws, so according to Thoreau these people are justified and hopefully can make a loud enough statement to change that law. Civil disobedience yeah! :wigout: [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 [size=1]Only Syk attempted to address my question about the benefits of marijuana. Syk referred to the stimulation of creative processes caused by marijuana. In a way thats fair enough, but is it really much of an excuse? In the same manner alcohol or cigarettes can relax you, or 'lighten your load'. And I don't give a flying **** in hell whether or not cigarettes or alcohol do any good. Thats not what this thread is about. I don't really think either of those two items should be as freely available as they are. But, thats not the point. The positive aspects of marijuana are shady at best...I don't see why people grow to be reliant upon outside measures to deal with their own problems. Find some other way. And, if you want to use marijuana, don't introduce other people to it.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven's Cloud Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 [QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Only Syk attempted to address my question about the benefits of marijuana. Syk referred to the stimulation of creative processes caused by marijuana. In a way thats fair enough, but is it really much of an excuse? In the same manner alcohol or cigarettes can relax you, or 'lighten your load'. And I don't give a flying **** in hell whether or not cigarettes or alcohol do any good. Thats not what this thread is about. I don't really think either of those two items should be as freely available as they are. But, thats not the point. The positive aspects of marijuana are shady at best...I don't see why people grow to be reliant upon outside measures to deal with their own problems. Find some other way. And, if you want to use marijuana, don't introduce other people to it.[/size][/QUOTE] [color=indigo]You don?t weigh the benefits of something before you make it legal, you weigh the consequences. The marketplace is currently saturated with products that, with the exception of enjoyment, offer no benefits (Twinkies, most video games, and reality television to name a few). But partaking in these activities doesn?t directly or indirectly hurt anyone but the partaker. If an object or substance doesn?t present a threat to anyone other than the user than why should the government become involved? I don?t think the government should protect ourselves from ourselves. However, I think that marijuana can directly affect others, simply because it hampers reflex and response time which can deteriorate motor vehicle skills. Unless there is an accurate test that can tell when someone has abused marijuana I don?t think it should be legalized. However, if such a test existed and if the government could enact proper laws to control and tax the substance I would be all for its legalization.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I believe there is a test that has something to do with your eyes. They move a pen or something around and when it is off to the side the eyes of the person will "wobble" if they are high. Don't know how good of a description that is though, heh. If you don't understand it, I'll try to make it better. Overall, smoking marijuana is a victimless crime. The only person you are hurting is yourself, which is what happens with alcohol, cigarettes, etc. Granted you are plain ole' stupid if you are driving under the influence, but that is the only way it will not be a victimless crime. But again, there are more drunk driver related accidents than there are marijuana related ones. I don't think it would really change. When you smoke you have the ability to actually think first, and hopefully you will think and decide not to drive. I got drunk one night and I don't remember going inside, going upstairs, how I got downstairs, and many other things. But in all the times I have smoked pot, I have not once had a huge swaths of my memory gone, and I have smoked more than I ever drank before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo Tremaine Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 [color=#503f86]People always regard medicines as good, but ones used for the treatments of major illnesses can have major side-effects too. Too much paracetamol will kill you, and a lot of MAOI drugs used to treat neurological illnesses can have exactly the same side-effects as the symptoms they're trying to calm. A lot of anti-depressents and painkillers can lead to people becoming dependent on them, and I doubt that would change with marijuana-derived treatments. Yeah, it's supposedly not physically addictive, but when you put just an element of it into a tablet with various other agents then it's changed, and could develop the same dependency risks. It's never black and white.[/color] [quote name='Zeta']But again, there are more drunk driver related accidents than there are marijuana related ones.[/quote][color=#503f86]Only because alcohol is legal and available on a widespread basis. All you'd be doing is replacing the drink with the smokes. [/color][QUOTE]When you smoke you have the ability to actually think first, and hopefully you will think and decide not to drive. I got drunk one night and I don't remember going inside, going upstairs, how I got downstairs, and many other things. But in all the times I have smoked pot, I have not once had a huge swaths of my memory gone, and I have smoked more than I ever drank before.[/QUOTE][color=#503f86]But you said yourself that it affected your short-term memory: [/color][quote name='Zeta']Yes it causes short-term memory loss. But really, many people just smoke and watch movies, listen to music and chill with friends. They don't do anything that requires them to remember important facts. Hell, I had problems remembering things way before I tried pot. I couldn't remember what I did a week before. Only if you do something that actually requires your attention will the short-term memory loss have a huge impact.[/quote][color=#503f86]Do you think people who drink and drive are going to be any less responsible than those who'd smoke weed and drive? [/color][quote name='Zeta']There have been no studies to say this is true. Sorry man, I just ain't buying that it was because of weed. He is probably like the only one to get paranoid schizophrenia because of just smoking.[/quote][color=#503f86]Again, there has been research. It doesn't say that it [i]always[/i] causes paranoid schizophrenia, but it certainly increases the chances of its development. [/color][quote name='Schizophrenia.com']Use of street drugs (marijuana/hash - cannabis, etc.) have been linked with significantly increased probability of developing schizophrenia. Psychiatrists in inner-city areas speak of cannabis being a factor in up to 80 per cent of schizophrenia cases. Researchers in New Zealand found that those who used cannabis by the age of 15 were more than three times (300%) more likely to develop illnesses such as schizophrenia. Other research has backed this up, showing that cannabis use increases the likelihood of psychosis by up to 700 per cent, and that the risk increases in proportion to the amount of canabis used (smoked or consumed). Research also suggests that there is an increased risk of relapse (i.e. risk of significant worsening of the psychosis) associated with marijuana and other street drugs. The more relapses a person has, the worse the prognosis for people with schizophrenia.[/quote][color=#503f86]I was going to find more research into the other detrimental side effects of marijuana but I really don't know if I can be bothered. Both sides can argue till they're blue in the face, but I don't think the speculations on either side have enough proof to say conclusively which is right or not. Either way, I hope that the medicinal qualities of the drug can be enhanced, but I don't personally want it to be legalised for general use.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I'd just like to add something to what Solo has said, regarding the public prominence of alcohol versus Mary-Jane. I was at a college party back in 2001, and there was heavy, heavy marijuana use there. Probably half of the party was smoking, and more than 3/4 of the party left...meaning, didn't spend the night, meaning, drove home. Considering just that one incident that probably gets repeated fairly often, something tells me that people aren't going to be all that sensible after smoking pot. I mean, we hear about so much drunk driving...what's there to suggest that if marijuana is legalized, we won't hear about or have increased incidents of people driving while high? I know I don't have that kind of faith in humanity to where I'll convince myself that people are suddenly going to stop the "Oh, I've kicked back a few, but I can still drive perfectly fine" schpiel. And, just one other thing about the "If you legalize it, people won't do it as much" argument...if you were to walk around a college campus, either in the dorms, in the parks, in off-campus apartments...you're going to see a hell of a lot drinking, smoking (both cigarette and pot). Now, if it's so prevalent already, and people light up a cigarette even on their way to campus, what do we think is going to happen if marijuana is legalized? People are going to be lighting up a fat one on their way to class. We shouldn't have to say this, but that is not a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afire Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 If you step back into the time of prohibition of alcohol, you will see that making alcohol illegal, didn't stop anyone from drinking it. If anything, it made things worse. Christ himself said that the law is the power of sin. I don't think it would make things better for this world one way or the other if marijuana was legalized though. Because the law has to removed from the heart in order to stop rebellion; not in this world. You can make laws and more laws in this world. They will only be broken. You can unmake laws and chaos will reign. Only until you see the truth will you be free from the law and free from sin also. Smoking marijuana is not a sin, but a symptom. The rebellion to a god of death is. For more about truth, see thread: Questioning Christianity. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 [QUOTE=Siren] Now, if it's so prevalent already, and people light up a cigarette even on their way to campus, what do we think is going to happen if marijuana is legalized? People are going to be lighting up a fat one on their way to class. [/QUOTE] [color=#002E55]Just because it becomes 'legalised' doesn't mean it can be smoked anywhere. The idea is that punishments for smoking outside of places that are deemed okay (i.e your home, a cafe) are increased quite a bit compared to the punishments that people face now. The other thing is that the only thing most likely to be legalised is regular, run of the mill weed, while most people smoke the much stronger variations. While the legalised variety will no doubt be very popular due to it's availability and lack of repurcussions, stronger types will still be there. My point is that people may try weed for the first time in a cafe were it legalised, then decide to move on to a stronger type to get a different kind of high. Although, if it's implemented right, the amount of stronger weed sold by people dealing it illegally will go down due to the harsher punishments they will face, as they will most likely start to sell it for an increased price. In my personal opinion I see no problem in legalising marijuana or even it's stronger variants, regardless of medicinal purposes or not. If the sale of it followed a similar pattern to cigarettes (as in, labels on the packets clearly stating any risks involved and how it will affect the person) I would be happy with that. I think it's somebody's decision whether or not they want to smoke marijuana, the 'risks' involved are often exaggerated to a high degree. Yes, schizophrenia and symptoms related to it pop up, but due to the psychological make up of the person, not solely through the smoking. However, no matter how much people debate the point, there will always be a cloud of uncertainty hanging over the argument on both sides. It's difficult to prove that marijuana will always have a bad or good effect, due to the fact that it relies quite heavily on the state of the person's mind. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 [QUOTE]But you said yourself that it affected your short-term memory:[/QUOTE] But the thing with smoking pot is that usually you just smoke and just hang out at your house/wherever you are. You aren't doing anything that you truly need to remember. It is mostly just watching movies and playing games. The difference is that you have total black outs with drinking. You won't remember [i]anything[/I]. With pot you usually only forget what people say, not what you do. For the time that I have smoked I have only forgotten what people have said, even in this case, my memory is still very crisp on what was said. I remember everything that we did. It doesn't effect short term memory on the degree that researches say it does. You won't know until you try. I'm not telling you to go out and buy and 8th, but if you want to know the truth about what you are taught, you should try it. I have yet to come across a fact that I was taught in DARE about Marijuana to be true, besides that you get high. [QUOTE]Do you think people who drink and drive are going to be any less responsible than those who'd smoke weed and drive?[/QUOTE] When you smoke weed you have the ability to think. Which I hope that everyone actually does before thinking of getting into a car while under the influence. I used to drive after/while I was smoking, with people who are totally against the stuff mind you. They commented on my driving being a whole lot better. Maybe this is just an isolated incident, maybe it isn't. But all the people I have driven with stoned are much better drivers while under the influence of marijuana than alcohol. It was stupid of me and them to do that, but our driving wasn't half as bad as those who have been drinking. Looking back on this, I realize that I was not being responsible and am just glad that nothing ever happened. But most times when someone smokes they are just going to chill wherever they are at. Usually it is in small groups and they just crash where they are, lol. Or the person is alone and just sits at a computer or watches a movie. Not too many people smoke and drive and get into accidents. If they did you would hear about them a lot, even if it is illegal you would still here about them. I know I don't around the places where I have lived. [QUOTE]Again, there has been research. It doesn't say that it always causes paranoid schizophrenia, but it certainly increases the chances of its development.[/QUOTE] Does the rest of the article go into detail on those they tested? All I am reading is that it may increase the likelihood of one getting schizophrenia. Which in my mind means that those who all ready have the possibility of contracting this disease are at a higher risk. Does it say who they tested and how they went about doing it? For all we know every single one of those tested either have the disease all ready, or were at risk to get it in the first place and that is why they said that. If it did indeed help schizophrenia along as much as they say, there would be MUCH more people with schizophrenia out there since so many people smoke pot. [QUOTE]I was at a college party back in 2001, and there was heavy, heavy marijuana use there. Probably half of the party was smoking, and more than 3/4 of the party left...meaning, didn't spend the night, meaning, drove home. Considering just that one incident that probably gets repeated fairly often, something tells me that people aren't going to be all that sensible after smoking pot.[/QUOTE] That is sad in my mind. An unfortunate thing to have read. I can see where you are coming from completely. But I don't believe that things like that are repeated too often. The parties that I went to and held at my house no one would ever leave. Though again that is just my experience. But yes, there are always going to be those who decide not to think and just go ahead and drive. Hopefully things like this don't happen to often. For all we know they could happen all the time, but we still haven't heard of any accidents involving marijuana. [QUOTE]I mean, we hear about so much drunk driving...what's there to suggest that if marijuana is legalized, we won't hear about or have increased incidents of people driving while high?[/QUOTE] Sadly people still do drive while smoking marijuana. But do we hear accidents involving them? I know I don't. When you are driving high you have the ability to think and actually see what is going on. You are concentrating harder than you normally would. You pay attention more. Never having driven drunk I am just guessing what it will be like. When you are drunk you can't even stand and walk in a straight line, while high you can. Drinking you have major loss of memory (not remembering anything) if you drink a lot, if you smoke a lot you don't have this problem. You don't have lapses in your memory, just trouble recalling things, which isn't that large of a deal in driving because your driving skills are long term and you always remember them. Hell we should make cell phones illegal to use when you drive as well. I know I have been talking on mine a few times and then found myself at my destination without recalling making the turns and stops that I have to do. I would just like to recap what I have said throughout this post and my others posts. Marijuana is not as bad as it seems. Everyone who is against it in any form are against it because of what they are taught. We have been lead to believe that marijuana is all bad and what not, when it is in fact not as bad as they say it is. Yes you develop smokers cough if you do it constantly. If you stop smoking for just a month, it is gone. You do not contract lung cancer from smoking marijuana. There have been no health related deaths linking to marijuana. Cigarettes have poison in them, marijuana does not. Marijuana is better in cigarettes in many ways. Depending on the way you smoke it you can greatly reduce the amount of smoke that is taken into your lungs. Joints are popular yes, but they aren't used as much as pipes or bongs. When using a pipe the tar and other bad chemicals accumulate onto the sides of the pipe until you decide to clean it. In bongs the smoke is filtered through the water and is cleaner than a cigarette and pipe. A vaporizer doesn't even light the marijuana on fire, it just activates the THC and causes it to rise so you just inhale THC and not the other harmful things that come from burning plants. Eating is the healthiest way to get stoned. Not only does it involve no smoke getting into your lungs, you get to eat as well. :p Marijuana doesn't effect short term memory on the degree everyone seems to think it does. I had smoked for about 10 months straight. I am able to remember what was done at each party, who was there, and practically anything except for what was said. But who can remember what someone said at a party let alone anywhere after an extended amount of time. You can't remember [i]everything[/I]. In fact I am writing up my life from the past year because some friends back in Wisconsin asked me to. I have yet to encounter any problem recalling anything that occurred. Drinking causes much more problems with your memory. Based on my experiences and on others, drunk driving is FAR worse than smoking and then driving. I myself drank one night and remember only 4 things total from that night. I remember sitting outside on the porch taking shots, finding myself on the third floor of our house, then myself in the kitchen, and then going to bed. I have no recollection of going into my house. I have no recollection of going upstairs or coming back down. I don't know how I got into the kitchen laying o n the floor, nor do I remember going into my room to sleep. I have smoked a good amount of weed some of these times and not once have I had a single black out. You are able to remember everything except what is said. Most of the time you are smoking with others who are as well, so what is said really isn't as important. Now if you were to go to school high and didn't take notes, I can see where this would be a problem. But overall, the short term memory loss that everyone identifies marijuana with isn't too big of a problem. Legalizing it would free up law enforcement and keep children away from the drug trafficking. With it under government regulation all an underage person would have to do would turn to an 18 year old (if that is the chosen age lets say) and ask for him to buy some. That is what people do with cigarettes. It would be no different. The plus to this would be that it would keep children/teens away from the drug market, keeping them away from much harder drugs like cocaine and heroin. That is one big plus if you ask me. Keeping them away from those things would cause the drug traffickers much more problems than arresting a teen with a small baggie of marijuana. There would be no need for drug traffickers to sell marijuana anymore. People aren't going to have to turn to them to get some, all they would have to do is turn to a neighbor that is 18 if they really want to do it. Cops won't come down as hard on a kid if they are smoking pot if it is legal at 18 or whenever. They don't get on your case for cigarettes or drinking. They only get on your case if you are drinking and driving, and would only get on your case if you are smoking and driving. Smoking marijuana is basically a victimless crime. Who are you hurting besides yourself? You aren't shooting anyone or robbing anyone. You buy it, go into your room and smoke. You sit and just listen to music or watch movies. I really don't see the harm in that. Why should you not be allowed to just smoke and have a good time? The key to legalizing marijuana is smoking it responsibly. The key word for doing any drugs, wether they be prescription or not, is being responsible. Obviously if you drink/smoke and drive you are not being responsible. If someone does that I see no problems hauling them off to jail for a night and having to pay a fine or whatnot. As long as you are responsible it isn't causing anyone harm. The thing with the schizophrenia is a very hard topic. The article provided doesn't say the kids already had the possibility of contracting the disease or not, so that could be a factor. They could all ready have the possibility of contracting it and the marijuana just helped it along. I read one of the sources that was provided with the article and it doesn't say anything if this families child all ready had a mild form of it, or if he had the possibility of getting it to begin with. You have a higher chance of contracting schizophrenia from things such as LSD or PCP, powerful hallucinogenic drugs that actually make you see and hear things, whereas marijuana does not. The gateway drug is bogus in my mind and as well as others. The only way it can be a gateway drug is the fact that you have to go into the world of drug trafficking. Doing so introduces you to the much harder things. With it legalized the drug could become the governments responsibility. With they controlling it the drug traffickers won't produce it since the people won't have to go to the underground to get it. They can buy it themselves if they are over the age limit, or have someone that is over the limit that they know buy it for them - which is how many people get cigarettes and alcohol. It keeps them away from the drug dealers which I think is very important. We could crack down on the heroin, cocaine and other hard drug dealers instead of marijuana. Again the only way to know about something is to try it yourself. Don't base a book on its cover. The cover of marijuana is all that we have been taught over the years. Many of which isn't as bad as they make it out to be. There are things out there that are worse than marijuana. But marijuana is the most frequently used drug linked to many arrests cases, many times with a very small amount. Our jails are overrun with first time drug offenders, many of which involve marijuana. There are murders, rapists, cocaine and heroin dealers out there that should be in there in the place of these marijuana smokers. Overall once you try it you will see that it isn't as bad as you are taught. Granted you may feel it isn't your thing, you will realize it isn't [i]that[/I] bad. Things like cocaine and heroin should be cracked down on more than marijuana. I can buy some marijuana type of plant that gives me the same effect as marijuana, but it isn't illegal. If things such as this are legal, why isn't the real thing legal? Marijuana isn't a completely good thing. It can still cause problems with your health, but not on the degree that many think. Many, many people who smoke, smoke when they are teens and stop when they get into college. But again, people still do smoke in college and after. There are more teens that smoke than adults. Many realize that if they get caught after 18, they will face much harsher penalties with the law if caught than if they are under 18. Well, I guess that is all I can really say on the subject, heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Zeta brings up a great point mentioning the idea that if marijuana is decriminalized and becomes much more accessible, those who smoke it will not be as exposed to the "drug market" out there. Therefore harder drugs (as well as whatever else comes with the territory) will not make their way into their lives as easily. I think it makes sense. I should look up some numbers regarding the war on drugs and see what goes toward marijuana-related law enforcement (if such numbers are available). Whatever they are, they'll shed some light on the entire issue of decriminalizing marijuana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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