Questioning Christianity

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Cyriel]Why do you think that Christianity takes away the will of young children to read and understand the Bible? And which parts do you think the Bible is misinterpreted?

Could you perhaps provide some proof? Where are you getting the basis for this?[/QUOTE]


Now, I will have to make some assumptions, and if any of them seem unfair, feel free to correct me. Children are encouraged to go to Sunday school where they are taught about the Bible. When they don't understand something, they ask, and are answered. However, some questions are seen as less than favorable. I have not seen this happen, because it is what must be hidden, but I would assume that a fair number of children have their own suggestions. If a child were to read the bible and say, "I think we live another life after we die." that child would be corrected, because it is the Christian way to have faith in life with God only after death.
[I]
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.[/I]

You take this as, "Save the children early, because if they don't learn the Bible's meaning as children, they will be harder to save later."

This is a misinterpretation. Let me ask you this: What do children do? My answer is that they question everything. Oh man, they have to know why grass is green and the sky is blue and why water is wet and where babies come from and everything else that we [I]take for granted.[/I] They question what they are taught in church, and they are shot down. It is man's 2,000 year old interpretation that is taught, unchanging. Christians are afraid to question their beliefs, when this is what Jesus said. He even said verily (truthfully), and yet this little tidbit is passed over. Do you know what he was responding to? Someone asked him what they needed to do to get into heaven. Receiving the kingdom as a little child is what he answered with, and said that it was the [I]most important thing.[/I]

Here are some nice little tidbits to get you started.

[I]Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.[/I]

If Christ lives within us, how is it that we can die? Jesus cannot die, therefore when we die, he cannot be with us. If he is not with us, then we certainly cannot get into heaven. We have to take what he said literally.

[I]Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/I]

This seems pretty straightforward to me. The first one says that sin is the cause of death, and that death is taken away by Jesus. The second says more or less the same thing, that Jesus took away our sins, and took death from us, too. The third says that we (Adam) brought death upon ourselves, and that resurrection of the dead (reincarnation) was the result. The fourth says that Jesus will destroy death. If you all are so hell-bent on dying and getting into heaven, does that mean Jesus failed you? The last one says that when Jesus as a man lives and dies without sin, he has broken its law. [I]You cannot have sin without death, or death without sin.[/I] Jesus destroyed Satan's one power. Death. He did this by breaking Satan's rule that those who sin must die. That was how we were saved. He didn't take away sin so that we could get to heaven when we die. He took it away so that we wouldn't have to die. We are free from death, we should rejoice! But you refuse to have death taken from you. You must have your one final sacrifice; your own life. This is how you repay Jesus, by denying that he slew death itself. Children not corrupted by the Christian law of sin and death can see this plain as day. If you care to take anything I've said and put it to question, please don't hesitate.

[Chaos]

Adahn, to the foremost question, it wasn't really funny, just that I barked out at the Crusades thing. Make no mistake, I disapprove of nearly everything the church in ye olde tymes did, but you have to think from a different point of view from modern day society and morality if you want to understand some things in life. The Crusades, way back when, during a time of complete and total hopelessness and gruesome wars, the people needed a united front to support each other with. Granted, the Crusades didn't get all of Europe singing "Glory, glory hallelujah," but it gave them purpose. It was a horrible thing to do, in all honesty, but it was needed at the time. Get what I'm saying?

To the next thing, you make Christians all sound out to be evil minions of the dark overlord trying to monopolize the children of the world. Granted, as a raised and broken Chrisitan, I know how...idiotic the faith can be, but it was always on the pretext of bettering the world around you. I would call most Christians far too overzealous for their own good [the ones that spend a couple hundred bucks on Jesus CDs], but not dastardly.

But, yes, the Christian faith is blind. I would go into a long debacle but I fear I already crossed that line I'm so fond of leaping over.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Chaos]Adahn, to the foremost question, it wasn't really funny, just that I barked out at the Crusades thing. Make no mistake, I disapprove of nearly everything the church in ye olde tymes did, but you have to think from a different point of view from modern day society and morality if you want to understand some things in life. The Crusades, way back when, during a time of complete and total hopelessness and gruesome wars, the people needed a united front to support each other with. Granted, the Crusades didn't get all of Europe singing "Glory, glory hallelujah," but it gave them purpose. It was a horrible thing to do, in all honesty, but it was needed at the time. Get what I'm saying?

To the next thing, you make Christians all sound out to be evil minions of the dark overlord trying to monopolize the children of the world. Granted, as a raised and broken Chrisitan, I know how...idiotic the faith can be, but it was always on the pretext of bettering the world around you. I would call most Christians far too overzealous for their own good [the ones that spend a couple hundred bucks on Jesus CDs], but not dastardly.

But, yes, the Christian faith is blind. I would go into a long debacle but I fear I already crossed that line I'm so fond of leaping over.[/QUOTE]

The Crusades may have been necessary, but that doesn't mean they were good or right. Christians are evil minions of the dark overlord trying to monopolize the children of the world. However, they don't understand what they're doing, so I don't say they're doing it on purpose. But, with whatever intent, they are still doing a terrible thing. I'm not afraid of crossing any lines, in fact, I think I've crossed most of them. Yet, only one has dared to question anything I've said. If they think I'm completely idiotic, they could at least tell me. Some say silence is louder than words, but here it means nothing.

[Brasil]

I'd just like to say something here really quickly.

The problem as I see it--and as most would see it if they were to take a few minutes and think about it--isn't Religion or Christianity or what-have-you. The real problem with any "Religious practice" is not Religion itself, but in the application of Religion.

And, as we can see from history (9/11, Crusades, et al), the application of religion is really what taints it, not from the actual Religion itself, though there's some pretty questionable stuff in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah/etc., it's the people...the followers...that spin it; it's the application that's skewed, not the Religion itself.

Just a point I'd like to make. :)

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]Any organization of any size works to proliferate and keep itself alive. While Christianity *was* overzealous, it was doing what every group of humans has done for eons- it worked for it's best interests in any way possible. So of course it led to extremes- perceived threats and windows of opportunity can cause any normal person or persons to act rashly to either gain an advantage or keep themselves alive. Place this trait in the hands of Christendom in the 'ye olde' times and you've got a situation that is just bound to go bad several times over, you know? That doesn't make it "right", of course. The Christian church might be corrupt, blind or misunderstanding but it has, in some messed up way, given alot of normal, average people some manner of hope to continue through hardships and trials. So, it did what it was supposed to do- draw people into one of the many messages of hope that exists. They had a form of their message they thought was correct, they preached it, people believed it. This has a point, I promise- the point is that they are not malicious. They are stumbling drunkenly, yes, but not malicious. I'm sure that they have ****** up to such a degree on some occasions that it might seem that way but, overall, I find them to be well-meaning [but of course, blind, stumbling, etc and so on]. It's unfortunate that so many people chose such a bumbling format for their hope, but what can you do?

My religious beliefs would not be helpful here. However, as to Satan, I do not believe that he is a single entity or demi-deity. A common theme throughout the world's cultures and religions is a common enemy- that mankind has one single dark enemy that is plaguing our every move. I believe that the concept of Satan is giving a personality to the enigmatic "darkness" that all humans seemed to start off fearing. So, I find him to be more of a character than a literal figure.

Overall, I find anything based off the Bible to probably be false as I hold the book to be nothing more than a good read for mythological studies, lol. I respect anyone who believes in the book to be something more, but I am not one of you. I'm not really sure out of any of the Christian religions which one is more 'true' to the book/message itself- you seem to be getting a few things right and a few things wrong from the Christian interpretation I was taught for 14 years [which is the Jehovah's Witness interpretation, by the by]. I've studied the Bible several times over personally with an objective, scientific mind and could see how you might be taking some of what it says to be too literal- you have to remember the extensive symbolism involved in the book, it is very, very enigmatic [which is why someone having an epiphany about what it says to the point of it being the truth is so hard to believe]. It's hard to see through the veil of secrecy it's own words puts itself under.

I am, however, glad that people are not all just following the commonly held viewpoint- obviously, this is the only way for positive [or negative] progression to occur. =)[/color]

[Afire]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]It's no wonder all the religions of the world are so screwed up. As long as they keep the power of satan alive, they will keep their perverted images of whatever God/Love is. As long as they believe that hell is a resting place created for man, they will try to force their long held beliefs on the rest of the world by threats, and even murder.

It's just to bad that they can't see this...that if they no longer had their devil to believe in, their image of god wouldn't be able to stand either.
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[Guest Midnight Rush]

This whole thing is too... ephemereal to even address. I will offer one thing though:

If you are going to make a thread questioning something, clearly maintain what the question is...

[Adahn]

First, to Siren, I'd just like to make it clear that I understand completely what you are saying, and that my questions aren't for the religion itself, but rather the religion that is widely practiced.

Next, to Midnight Rush, I am questioning the Christian interpretation of the Bible. If you read my posts, you will see the basic differences I have. I have stated them quite clearly and forcefully (I think). Of course, everyone always demands that I explain myself, so if you want to take something I've said and have me expand on it, I'd be happy to say the same thing with alot more words so you can really understand what I'm saying. Everyone knows that more words is better.

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]
Overall, I find anything based off the Bible to probably be false as I hold the book to be nothing more than a good read for mythological studies, lol. I respect anyone who believes in the book to be something more, but I am not one of you. I'm not really sure out of any of the Christian religions which one is more 'true' to the book/message itself- you seem to be getting a few things right and a few things wrong from the Christian interpretation I was taught for 14 years [which is the Jehovah's Witness interpretation, by the by]. I've studied the Bible several times over personally with an objective, scientific mind and could see how you might be taking some of what it says to be too literal- you have to remember the extensive symbolism involved in the book, it is very, very enigmatic [which is why someone having an epiphany about what it says to the point of it being the truth is so hard to believe]. It's hard to see through the veil of secrecy it's own words puts itself under.
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Most of the examples I use are said by Jesus, and preceded by the word, "verily" (truthfully). When the bible is giving you a riddle to solve, it tells you. Jesus would say, "Ok, now, this is a parable." However, when he says something with the word truthfully in front of it, can we say it needs to be interpreted? To try and interpret those sayings is like saying Jesus was lying (covers his mouth and gasps). But, that is what you're trying to tell me.

Next, you said you read the Bible with an objective, scientific mind.

[I]Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.[/I]

I don't think it was meant to be read by an objective, scientific mind. It was supposed to be read by people searching for the truth. If you don't read it and understand it as a child would, you aren't reading it or understanding it as it was meant to be read and understood. What the commonly-accepted Christian religions have done is disregarded this completely and read the Bible in such a way that it suits their desires, and lines up with their fears. The Bible is about the choice to accept God or to deny Him. Adam denied him for everyone, and Jesus gave every person their chance to accept Him. Of course, if you're the kind of person who can only think objectively and scientifically, all of this is lost on you. Don't believe what other people tell you to believe without questioning it, but on the same note, don't disregard what someone says without thinking about it, either. In respect to that, it cannot hurt to listen to my words. The truth is in the Bible, and if you read it as a child would, you will find the truth. If you live your life accepting what other people have told you, feeling safe in secure about your place in heaven after death, you will die happy, and you will be thrust back into the world with a clean slate and a new chance. If, however, you find the truth, you will see that God is holding out to us man's greatest desire, Immortality. Accept it, and you will live forever. Deny it, and it will still be there until you are ready for it. It will be given to everyone eventually, but those who demand to pay for it will pay dearly.

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]I'm pretty sure in the context of the situation he was speaking of the meek, humble personality that children have. The disciples around him assumed that a man of such stature as Jesus did not have time or breath to waste on mere children, that he was higher than them- he was showing that one must BE humble and meek, as Jesus was and just like the children that wanted to be with him. The message of alot of the Bible is love, respect, generosity and humility- this ties in with the whole message, especially humility. Only ones who are not full of themselves, egotistical, haughty, arrogant and so on..

But, obviously, I'm not understanding it correctly. =)[/color]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]I'm pretty sure in the context of the situation he was speaking of the meek, humble personality that children have. The disciples around him assumed that a man of such stature as Jesus did not have time or breath to waste on mere children, that he was higher than them- he was showing that one must BE humble and meek, as Jesus was and just like the children that wanted to be with him. The message of alot of the Bible is love, respect, generosity and humility- this ties in with the whole message, especially humility. Only ones who are not full of themselves, egotistical, haughty, arrogant and so on..

But, obviously, I'm not understanding it correctly. =)[/color][/QUOTE]

Very, very good point. All I can say in response is that no children I've ever met were humble and meek. Perhaps they were different 2,000 years ago, but I've always seen children being curious and asking questions. I find myself with little else to say, because you just make too much damn sense. I suppose if your interpretation were correct, I'd have to adjust my argument. If people are supposed to be humble and meek to receive heaven, they should do so from Jesus himself, not from men out to try and save others. The best a person can and should do is show someone the Bible. To do anything more removes any chance of that person being able to seek and find the truth for him/herself.

[Chaos]

Of course things change with time. Isn't that the root of all evils? Or is that greed? Hmm, either way, changes, big and small, have usually led to some monumental shift in the progression of average life.

Adahn, I rarely enjoy the ability to assume, so I will guess you think most people are trying to live by the Bible? Let me sum it up, at least how I wrap my mind around it; the Bible isn't an instruction manual for life, but instead a roadmap that's introverted. It shows us how life was before a divine grace accepted people within paradise, and it showed us how to obtain said paradise. It tells us to treat others as we would like to be treated, to be kind unto our fellow man and do not seek worldly gain over spiritual enlightenment.

Therein lies the problem.

A thief, nailed to tree timbers, probably not ten feet from God's only son, had lived his life a criminal and a forsaker of the teachings of the likes of Moses. Upon his dying day, he gave up himself to the mercy of God, and was forgiven.

Does anyone see the hypocrisy?

We are taught in church to lead a life of shining accomplishment and to help someone who has fallen below his mark. We are taught by the Bible the suffering of the past for the salvation of the future. We are taught Jesus died for the forgiveness we so sorely lacked, and that if we follow in his footsteps, we will ascend to sit at his side for all time.

Yet a thief who, in the eleventh hour, asked for penance, joined angels on high? That makes no sense at all.

We are told to be compassionate to all types of people. We are told to await with open arms to forgive those who are ready to apologize. So what do we do?

We picket out in front of Congress and abortion clinics. We protest the use of stillborn children to help in radical medical benefits. We teach our children to never trust someone who wears a turban.

We are told to uphold the Ten Commandments by priests who molest alter boys.

We are told that God is always with us, but we still have to shuttle back and forth between our daily lives and church.

We are told that all other religions are wrong, and that they will burn in Hell, while we are the ones who blindly follow the Bible like it is a DNA sample or a carbon-14 trace.


See where I'm going with this?

I'm sure, at one point in time, the Christian religion was on the right track...but now, it's better for people to decide their own agreements with God.

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE]Here's the paragraph you chose to highlight, Azurewolf...

First, let's get one thing straight. I'm not stupid. I read your post and know that you're not a Christian. All you told me to do was talk to a bishop, and that's what I'm referring to here, though that seems to have slipped by you. I'm sorry you misunderstood. As for me not addressing your comments, they consisted of you telling me to find a bishop and talk to him. My reply is that one must be like a child to get into heaven, which is in the bible (yes, I'll quote this for you) [I]Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.[/I] If you want to isolate any one of my ideas and ask where I found it in the bible, I can do that. I hope you understand better. If it helps, I will edit this post later with lots and lots of verses and my own interpretation, but it's 12:30 A.M. I believe I've cleared away half of your complaints though.[/QUOTE][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Wow, this post gives you even less validity than the last one. All I told you was to go to a bishop? Even if we did amuse that idea and agree that's the only thing I said :rolleyes:, what's wrong with that? Are you saying that your idea and concepts crumble apart when you converse with someone more knowledgeable than you on the topic at hand? Doesn't that essentially mean you don't have much of a point?

And now, let's step back and actually look at what I wrote. To help you follow along with my post (which is pretty sad), I'll strike out what you addressed (even if your response was ridiculously weak).[QUOTE]Well, it sounds like you are some kind of Christian-Bhuddist hybrid. Hey, if you came up with all that Nirvana-esque philosophy all yourself, that's just awesome. However, I'm not seeing the point.

Are you just questioning Christianity on certain points? Again, perfectly awesome to question a religion, but it sounds like you are just announcing your views on things and not really backing it up much.

[strike]You could just go to your local bishop and ask them about their stance on reincarnation.[/strike] Christians don't believe it in, plain and simple (resurrection is different). Umm... yeah, there's really not much more to go on. If your logic on that stance is just, "Well, how can you know?" that's a moot point that can work either way. I can toss that argument right back at you: " How do you know we were born multiple times to different bodies?"

[strike]Again, I think your local bishop has a better conceptual design supporting his view on it.[/strike]

As for your ideas on the soul and the human body, I don't follow. A life is something a creature lives, not a soul. To say that someone's life began when their soul was supposedly created is really illogical. Now you have to explain how ethereal souls are bound to the same physical laws as corporeal bodies are, and yet, somehow, immune to a select few of those laws (i.e., death).

And as for your idea that everything has a beginning and an ending, that's true for things bound to this dimension's physical laws, but can the same be said of other dimensions and of God? To say that God is Himself bound to what he created (in this case, time), is going to be hard to argue if you are using the Christian (and a few other) definitions of Him. To put it simply, God transcends time and space.

[strike]As for the whole "Why did Jesus die?" thing, again, consult your local bishop about the relevance of his death to the Holy Trinity. My order of events for the Holy Trinity is hazy, since I'm not exactly a follower of the religion in question, but death is very important in the whole thing.[/strike][/QUOTE] Now, instead of generalizing things and making conclusions that are clearly false (at least I hope it's clear now), please address the issues I've addressed [B]that you brought up[/B].[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

Ok, I'll respond to everything if it makes you happy.

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
Well, it sounds like you are some kind of Christian-Bhuddist hybrid. Hey, if you came up with all that Nirvana-esque philosophy all yourself, that's just awesome. However, I'm not seeing the point.
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This means you don't understand what I'm trying to say, and you acknowledge that I'm talking about Reincarnation and Christianity.

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
Are you just questioning Christianity on certain points? Again, perfectly awesome to question a religion, but it sounds like you are just announcing your views on things and not really backing it up much.
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This says I'm saying what I believe without quoting thousands of lines of scripture. I thought I made it clear that if you want to take any one of my beliefs and ask for biblical reference, you were free to do so. I guess I didn't make that clear the last time I said it, so I'll say it again. If you want to take any one of my beliefs and ask for biblical reference, please do so.

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
You could just go to your local bishop and ask them about their stance on reincarnation. Christians don't believe it in, plain and simple (resurrection is different). Umm... yeah, there's really not much more to go on. If your logic on that stance is just, "Well, how can you know?" that's a moot point that can work either way. I can toss that argument right back at you: " How do you know we were born multiple times to different bodies?"
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This is you attacking my beliefs about resurrection because I didn't back them up. Perhaps it was the purpose of my original post to state my views so they could be questioned? I'll compress all the information you need into one handy link.
[URL=http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#12]Everything[/URL]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
Again, I think your local bishop has a better conceptual design supporting his view on it.

As for your ideas on the soul and the human body, I don't follow. A life is something a creature lives, not a soul. To say that someone's life began when their soul was supposedly created is really illogical. Now you have to explain how ethereal souls are bound to the same physical laws as corporeal bodies are, and yet, somehow, immune to a select few of those laws (i.e., death).
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

That nice little link up there answers everything. If you need me to take every one of those verses and explain them, I can do that.

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
And as for your idea that everything has a beginning and an ending, that's true for things bound to this dimension's physical laws, but can the same be said of other dimensions and of God? To say that God is Himself bound to what he created (in this case, time), is going to be hard to argue if you are using the Christian (and a few other) definitions of Him. To put it simply, God transcends time and space.
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Ok, you misread me here. I said everything that has a beginning has an ending. Time has no beginning nor end, and everything you've written here is based on your failure to read what I said in context.

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
As for the whole "Why did Jesus die?" thing, again, consult your local bishop about the relevance of his death to the Holy Trinity. My order of events for the Holy Trinity is hazy, since I'm not exactly a follower of the religion in question, but death is very important in the whole thing.
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I really don't know what the holy trinity is. Also, I believe I've stated in most, if not all my posts, that bishops may know alot, but most of what they know is wrong. You really didn't say much with your first post, but I guess everyone needs to have their flaws pointed out. If you feel I still haven't adequately addressed any of your points that you feel are valid, I'd be happy to clear them up more. I try not to be verbose for a reason. Nobody wants to look through posts like these. (meaning my reply, not your original post)

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE]This means you don't understand what I'm trying to say, and you acknowledge that I'm talking about Reincarnation and Christianity.[/QUOTE][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]If you think I don't understand what you are trying to say, how can I acknowledge any of it? Paradoxical phrase.[QUOTE]This says I'm saying what I believe without quoting thousands of lines of scripture. I thought I made it clear that if you want to take any one of my beliefs and ask for biblical reference, you were free to do so. I guess I didn't make that clear the last time I said it, so I'll say it again. If you want to take any one of my beliefs and ask for biblical reference, please do so.[/QUOTE]Wrong again: that means I want your reasoning. Quoting a million biblical references isn't going to explain your interpretation.[QUOTE]This is you attacking my beliefs about resurrection because I didn't back them up. Perhaps it was the purpose of my original post to state my views so they could be questioned? I'll compress all the information you need into one handy link.
[URL=http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#12]Everything[/URL][/QUOTE]So, what you are saying is you didn't come up with any of your ideas and are just following some online link. No, I'm not going to say that, but if I mimicked your line of reasoning, that would be the first plausible answer, haha.

Again, I don't want a link with a bunch of useless material. What I want is your support and reasoning for why you believe such things. Hey, if they are plausible, I'm not going to argue about it. It's the things you don't support and don't really argue that are bothering me.[QUOTE]Ok, you misread me here. I said everything that has a beginning has an ending. Time has no beginning nor end, and everything you've written here is based on your failure to read what I said in context.[/QUOTE] Well, let's clear some things up then. [QUOTE][i]From the first post[/i]
"I was born, my life began. Eventually, my life will end."

What if your life didn't begin when you were born? Maybe it began when your soul was born.

"My soul was born with my body, both were created at the same time, and those two things make me what I am today!"

Hmm, so your soul had a beginning, then? Well, let me introduce you to one of the laws that everything follows. Everything that has a beginning has an end. It is indisputable, and applicable to everything. How can you say your soul had a beginning and be so confident that it will not end?

"Umm..."

The way I see it, you have two choices. Either your soul was born and your soul will die, or your soul always was and always will be.

"Then what does happen to my soul when I die?"

You live another life with the same heart and mind, but a different body. The same eternal soul that has always been in you driving everything you do.

"That kinda sucks..."

Yes, it does kinda suck. So, there has to be an end to this cycle, right?

"There'd better be *crosses arms*"

If all lives are lived within this realm, what makes you think perfection can't be reached without death?[/QUOTE] Your soul was born sounds pretty straightforward to me. You are suggesting the idea that souls have a beginning. In addition, your second answer to your second question implies that a person is the spirit, not the body, which doesn't make sense if you piece that together with the last few of these things.

So it really sounds here that you are saying souls live the life and keep cycling through other lives. That's fine and dandy, but then how does death end the cycle that souls are responsible for turning? That brings me to the point about souls that you just quoted. [QUOTE]I really don't know what the holy trinity is. Also, I believe I've stated in most, if not all my posts, that bishops may know alot, but most of what they know is wrong. You really didn't say much with your first post, but I guess everyone needs to have their flaws pointed out. If you feel I still haven't adequately addressed any of your points that you feel are valid, I'd be happy to clear them up more. I try not to be verbose for a reason. Nobody wants to look through posts like these. (meaning my reply, not your original post)[/QUOTE] Haha, I'm pretty sure the Holy Trinity is one of the biggest things in the Christian religion: if you don't know that, how can you argue about Christianity?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]If you think I don't understand what you are trying to say, how can I acknowledge any of it? Paradoxical phrase.Wrong again: that means I want your reasoning. Quoting a million biblical references isn't going to explain your interpretation.So, what you are saying is you didn't come up with any of your ideas and are just following some online link. No, I'm not going to say that, but if I mimicked your line of reasoning, that would be the first plausible answer, haha.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

The first part was a deliberate paradox. You said you didn't know what I was talking about, and in the same sentence said exactly what I was talking about. Sorry that that slipped by you. Oh, and I must applaud you for your wit concerning my link. If you had actually clicked on it, you would see that it's a few verses from the Bible, not an explanation of all my beliefs that I found on the internet. I don't understand how you could reply to me without even checking.

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
Again, I don't want a link with a bunch of useless material. What I want is your support and reasoning for why you believe such things. Hey, if they are plausible, I'm not going to argue about it. It's the things you don't support and don't really argue that are bothering me. Well, let's clear some things up then. Your soul was born sounds pretty straightforward to me. You are suggesting the idea that souls have a beginning. In addition, your second answer to your second question implies that a person is the spirit, not the body, which doesn't make sense if you piece that together with the last few of these things.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

So, the Bible is just a bunch of useless material? Why are you posting if you think that the basis of Christianity is completely useless? Our souls were born with Adam. He sinned, and so we all sinned. It's fairly obvious to me that there's a connection there. I think I said something along those lines in my first post, too.

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]
So it really sounds here that you are saying souls live the life and keep cycling through other lives. That's fine and dandy, but then how does death end the cycle that souls are responsible for turning? That brings me to the point about souls that you just quoted. Haha, I'm pretty sure the Holy Trinity is one of the biggest things in the Christian religion: if you don't know that, how can you argue about Christianity?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Death doesn't end the cycle, life does. I've said this in almost all of my posts, too. You can end the cycle of death and rebirth by not dying. Yes, that means you become immortal. If you actually move your mouse and click on the nice little link in my last post, you'll see everything. Also, there is no mention of the Holy Trinity in the Bible, so how can it be one of the biggest things in the Christian religion? All the truth is in the Bible, and one shouldn't place all their faith in man's interpretation, but rather the actual words that are written.

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE]The first part was a deliberate paradox. You said you didn't know what I was talking about, and in the same sentence said exactly what I was talking about. Sorry that that slipped by you. Oh, and I must applaud you for your wit concerning my link. If you had actually clicked on it, you would see that it's a few verses from the Bible, not an explanation of all my beliefs that I found on the internet. I don't understand how you could reply to me without even checking.[/QUOTE][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Again (for the umpteenth time), verses from the Bible do nothing if you don't say your explanation of them. Better yet, if they are oh-so relevant, you should put them alongside with whatever view of yours they support.

Haha, I'm so certain that it was a deliberate paradox. Deliberate paradoxes have a particular tone to them at the end that hints to the reader that they have a purpose in mind - at least if the writer has any idea of what they are doing.[QUOTE]So, the Bible is just a bunch of useless material? Why are you posting if you think that the basis of Christianity is completely useless? Our souls were born with Adam. He sinned, and so we all sinned. It's fairly obvious to me that there's a connection there. I think I said something along those lines in my first post, too.[/QUOTE]Useless material with respect to what you are trying to prove, yes. I'm posting because your foundation appears to be even weaker than that of Christianity, so I find it ironic you would try to question it. [B]And there you go again saying souls were born[/B] without any logical backing. Explaining and supporting your comments doesn't seem to be your forte... [QUOTE]Death doesn't end the cycle, life does. I've said this in almost all of my posts, too. You can end the cycle of death and rebirth by not dying. Yes, that means you become immortal. If you actually move your mouse and click on the nice little link in my last post, you'll see everything. Also, there is no mention of the Holy Trinity in the Bible, so how can it be one of the biggest things in the Christian religion? All the truth is in the Bible, and one shouldn't place all their faith in man's interpretation, but rather the actual words that are written.[/QUOTE] Again, you are just flooding us with meaningless words. Support your comments, PLEASE. If you want people to nod yes or no to your ideas without having any clue how you came up with them, just say so and I'll back off.

If I remember correctly, the Christians believe that the Holy Trinity is the big mystery of God's "nature" or "being," but it's irrelevant if you really aren't looking for answers and just want to attack a religion blindly.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[I]1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [/I]

The first few lines establish that there is a resurrection. The last line speaks of those that have died not being able to be reborn. To show this, he uses the word "asleep" instead of "dead". Those that sleep can wake up, but if Christ did not do as was said, then those that sleep can never wake up again.

[I]1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.[/I]

If we all died in Adam, does that not mean there is a part of us within him, and him within us? If there is anything that can be passed through all of humanity, it is the human soul.

[I]1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.[/I]

This is pretty straightforward. No more death. Not much interpretation. Jesus destroyed death, so we wouldn't have to endure it any longer. Of course, you can still die if you deny that he destroyed it. Your choice.


[I]1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.[/I]

This says there's no point in living if you're going to die. Life is meaningless if death is the end. Do what you want, it doesn't matter, it's not like you're going to [I]live forever[/I] .

[I]1Cr 15:35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.[/I]

The meaning of this is a little hazy to me, but it says that seeds are souls, and God gives souls bodies. I think it speaks of reproduction here. If you attempt to reproduce, you are providing the flesh for the body which God may or may not put a soul into.

[I]1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.[/I]

This says that we are reborn into sin, but we can attain immortality through faith in Jesus. It tells of the difference between those that are saved from death and those that have faith in death. If you live in a natural body, you will die a natural death. If you live in a spiritual body (saved by Christ) then you are free from death.

[I]1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.
1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [/I]

This further distinguishes the spiritual and the natural. Adam was made to be perfect, but he was changed by sin into a quickening spirit, one that rushes towards death over and over. Jesus was brought into this world to save us from the law of sin and death. If we are as he is, we will be like those that are heavenly, which is without death. We bear the images of the earthy and the heavenly because we have a choice between faith in death and faith in eternal life.

[I]1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/I]

This says that if you are earthy (of flesh and blood) you cannot have eternal life. He refers to sleep here as death, saying that some people will achieve eternal life without death, and others will sleep (die). Eventually, all of us will be changed, but why continue to die and be reborn if we can have our eternal life now? When this happens to all of us, death will be gone from everyone, forever.

[I]1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. [/I]

This talks of how Jesus has defeated death. It also says that sin and death are very closely related, and it can be said that when Adam sinned, Adam brought death into the world. It says that one should continue to do God's will throughout life, because we are clearing the path for death to be taken from everyone, whether they like it or not.

[Afire]

[QUOTE=Midnight Rush]This whole thing is too... ephemereal to even address. I will offer one thing though:

If you are going to make a thread questioning something, clearly maintain what the question is...[/QUOTE]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]Ok, Midnight Rush. This thread is questioning the current beliefs of Christianity today. To maintain that question, you might have to question everything to get to the root of the problem. And there is a problem as I see it. I'm sure there are many more people out there that would like to question the doctrines of men that they have been taught. So to say this subject is too ephemeral (short lived) to address...well, that's just how you feel right now. The day could come when you may question some of the beliefs handed down to you.

To me the Kingdom of God is an ever expanding thing. It's in all of us. I haven't seen the so called Christian Church expanding in thought or deed in my lifetime. If anything, it is falling.

The only thing that the gates of hell will prevail against, is corruption and death.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Cyriel]

[QUOTE]I haven't seen the so called Christian Church expanding in thought or deed in my lifetime. If anything, it is falling.[/QUOTE]What makes you think this? And why do you say "so-called" Christian church? Why is it falling/failing?

[QUOTE]Does anyone see the hypocrisy?

We are taught in church to lead a life of shining accomplishment and to help someone who has fallen below his mark. We are taught by the Bible the suffering of the past for the salvation of the future. We are taught Jesus died for the forgiveness we so sorely lacked, and that if we follow in his footsteps, we will ascend to sit at his side for all time.

Yet a thief who, in the eleventh hour, asked for penance, joined angels on high? That makes no sense at all.[/QUOTE] Yes, according to our worldly thoughts and habits, we have to work for what we get. I understand you completely (well, maybe not completely, because I'm not you), and I would also say that that would be unfair to those who have followed Christ all their lives. But the thing is that God considers all of us as his children - why would he turn away any child from his side? Just as in the Bible, there's the story of the prodigal son, who goes and just spends all his money, and returns home as a failure, but still is welcomed wholeheartedly. And the elder son basically asks what you ask, and the father answers that the elder son only has to ask him, and he shall get whatever he desires. But the thing is, if you love someone, would you turn them away? If you offered them salvation, and they accepted it, even though it was last minute, would you turn them away? God and Christ love all of us, and they will rejoice when anyone comes and acknowledges them, even if it is last minute like the thief. Instead of saying they don't deserve it, why not rejoice that they've been saved?

[QUOTE]I don't think it was meant to be read by an objective, scientific mind. It was supposed to be read by people searching for the truth. If you don't read it and understand it as a child would, you aren't reading it or understanding it as it was meant to be read and understood. What the commonly-accepted Christian religions have done is disregarded this completely and read the Bible in such a way that it suits their desires, and lines up with their fears.[/QUOTE]Why would you say that the Christian religions don't read/understand the Bible as it was meant to be?

[QUOTE]We are told to be compassionate to all types of people. We are told to await with open arms to forgive those who are ready to apologize. So what do we do?

We picket out in front of Congress and abortion clinics. We protest the use of stillborn children to help in radical medical benefits. We teach our children to never trust someone who wears a turban.[/QUOTE] I believe that people can express their beliefs in nonviolent ways. I don't believe in abortion, unless under special circumstances. However, I don't go picket because 1)too far away, and 2)it's just not how I choose to express my beliefs. But I'm not everyone, and I can't say that what they're doing is right or wrong - who am I to judge them? But I can say that if it offends you, or gives you negative views of Christians, all I can say is that I'm sorry, and that if I could do something, I would. As for never trusting someone who wears a turban, I can only say that I have friends of almost every racial and cultural background and diversity. Do they wear turbans? No, but they're girls, so I don't think that they're supposed to...but their origins are Middle Eastern, and one of them is a direct immigrant. Am I afraid of them? No.

[QUOTE]We are told to uphold the Ten Commandments by priests who molest alter boys.[/QUOTE]Again, I have to say that I'm sorry. If only I could express to you that the majority of those who call themselves Christians are in direct opposition to this, and are outraged, and at the same time extremely saddened. But these incidences in which leaders' failures to uphold their beliefs, even when they preach them to other people, is like a reminder to me to uphold mine - to show that Christianity is not meant to be a hypocrisy, but a relationship with God. To show what true trust and love in God and Christ is.

[QUOTE]We are told that God is always with us, but we still have to shuttle back and forth between our daily lives and church.[/QUOTE]For Christians, I think that the goal is that we establish such a relationship with God so that we no longer have to "shuttle back and forth." Instead, God becomes a [I]part[/I] of our daily lives. Going to church isn't a bad thing - it's a place and time where we can gather with other Christians in fellowship, and to worship God together. It's even said in the Bible that Christians should go to church, so that they can learn more and grow more in their faith, and that fellowship with other Christians leads to a stronger relationship with God.

[QUOTE]We are told that all other religions are wrong, and that they will burn in Hell, while we are the ones who blindly follow the Bible like it is a DNA sample or a carbon-14 trace.[/QUOTE] Other religions meaning...outside of Christianity? Or those sects in Christianity? I know some people believe that only Lutherans will go to Heaven, or only Baptists, or only Presbytarians...etc. Frankly, I don't believe this. These divisions exist only due to small differences in each of them, such as the custom of baptism, like when, and how, and so on... But the core of each of these is the same - we believe and love God, and we believe and love Christ, who died to save us from sin. As for those religions outside of Christianity, like, for example, Buddhism, or Hinduism, the sad fact is that they will go to hell. Is this my choice? No. I don't like the idea any better than anyone else - why do I want people to die? But the truth is that if they don't believe and accept Christ into their lives, there's no way for them into Heaven. Even Christ says that there's only one way to God and salvation, and that's through Him.

[QUOTE]As long as they keep the power of satan alive, they will keep their perverted images of whatever God/Love is. As long as they believe that hell is a resting place created for man, they will try to force their long held beliefs on the rest of the world by threats, and even murder.

It's just to bad that they can't see this...that if they no longer had their devil to believe in, their image of god wouldn't be able to stand either.[/QUOTE]Why would you say this? What convinces you that we're keeping the power of Satan alive? What makes our image of God perverted? Why would Hell be the resting place for man? And what makes you say that we forcing our beliefs through threats and violence?

[Chaos]

[quote name='Cyriel'] Yes, according to our worldly thoughts and habits, we have to work for what we get. I understand you completely (well, maybe not completely, because I'm not you), and I would also say that that would be unfair to those who have followed Christ all their lives. But the thing is that God considers all of us as his children - why would he turn away any child from his side? Just as in the Bible, there's the story of the prodigal son, who goes and just spends all his money, and returns home as a failure, but still is welcomed wholeheartedly. And the elder son basically asks what you ask, and the father answers that the elder son only has to ask him, and he shall get whatever he desires. But the thing is, if you love someone, would you turn them away? If you offered them salvation, and they accepted it, even though it was last minute, would you turn them away? God and Christ love all of us, and they will rejoice when anyone comes and acknowledges them, even if it is last minute like the thief. Instead of saying they don't deserve it, why not rejoice that they've been saved? [/quote]

You pretty much proved the point that the Christian chruch is just feeding us a load of crap. Based on what you just said, I could kill sheep in the name of some Egyptian goddess for my entire life, but think I'm wrong at the last second of my life and receive the same blessings as someone who devoted their entire life to the worship of God. The church just wants to keep us around to put those five and ten dollars in the collection plate.

[quote]I believe that people can express their beliefs in nonviolent ways. I don't believe in abortion, unless under special circumstances. However, I don't go picket because 1)too far away, and 2)it's just not how I choose to express my beliefs. But I'm not everyone, and I can't say that what they're doing is right or wrong - who am I to judge them? But I can say that if it offends you, or gives you negative views of Christians, all I can say is that I'm sorry, and that if I could do something, I would. As for never trusting someone who wears a turban, I can only say that I have friends of almost every racial and cultural background and diversity. Do they wear turbans? No, but they're girls, so I don't think that they're supposed to...but their origins are Middle Eastern, and one of them is a direct immigrant. Am I afraid of them? No.[/quote]

Believe it all you like, the fact of the matter is the more...enspirited...of the Christian community opens its mouth far too often. The fact that people scream out "baby killer" and crap like that on a daily basis shows that they are liars, claiming to live life accepting all others as God's children, but can't even get over their own, moronic ideals to see that some people have to make money.

[quote]Again, I have to say that I'm sorry. If only I could express to you that the majority of those who call themselves Christians are in direct opposition to this, and are outraged, and at the same time extremely saddened. But these incidences in which leaders' failures to uphold their beliefs, even when they preach them to other people, is like a reminder to me to uphold mine - to show that Christianity is not meant to be a hypocrisy, but a relationship with God. To show what true trust and love in God and Christ is.[/quote]

Please, don't lecture me on the Christian morality code. I know full well that most priests haven't laid a hand on children. It's the fact that those that did lied about it. We can no longer trust the men who used to be the revolution of most communities. No matter how you view the incidents, it's how it affects the majority of people. Couple that with all of the rubbernecking to get their nose in every slightly controvercal matter, and we have a serious problem.

[quote]For Christians, I think that the goal is that we establish such a relationship with God so that we no longer have to "shuttle back and forth." Instead, God becomes a [I]part[/I] of our daily lives. Going to church isn't a bad thing - it's a place and time where we can gather with other Christians in fellowship, and to worship God together. It's even said in the Bible that Christians should go to church, so that they can learn more and grow more in their faith, and that fellowship with other Christians leads to a stronger relationship with God.[/quote]

We need others to influence us on our stance with God? Do you even buy that? How can fellowship with a bunch of idiotic, dull, slow fools help you enlighten yourself to God? If you go to church daily, I'm sorry. You're wasting far too much time on something you don't even need to leave the house for. As long as you hold God in your heart, you don't need **** else.

[quote]Other religions meaning...outside of Christianity? Or those sects in Christianity? I know some people believe that only Lutherans will go to Heaven, or only Baptists, or only Presbytarians...etc. Frankly, I don't believe this. These divisions exist only due to small differences in each of them, such as the custom of baptism, like when, and how, and so on... But the core of each of these is the same - we believe and love God, and we believe and love Christ, who died to save us from sin. As for those religions outside of Christianity, like, for example, Buddhism, or Hinduism, the sad fact is that they will go to hell. Is this my choice? No. I don't like the idea any better than anyone else - why do I want people to die? But the truth is that if they don't believe and accept Christ into their lives, there's no way for them into Heaven. Even Christ says that there's only one way to God and salvation, and that's through Him.[/quote]

All other religions are, according to the literal principles, yes, wrong. Either you're in or out. Game over. And, of course, the Christian community doesn't bother thinking it just may be wrong, and you of course, accept this from day one. Throughout history, every single religion has been right. So, what do we, as Christians, do? Be the true bigots of the world and force ourselves on everything and assimilate everything we can. Do we have historical proof that Jesus walked the earth? No. Do we have factual evidence that if we believe in God, we'll go to heaven? No.


Don't take this to heart. It's just the other side of the fence.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Cyriel]
Why would you say that the Christian religions don't read/understand the Bible as it was meant to be?
[/QUOTE]

Christians have more faith in death than they do of getting into heaven. Jesus' purpose was to come here, take away sin [I]and death[/I], and show us the truth man failed to find in the old testament. Go ahead, tell me which you have more faith in. Do you believe more in death, or in life?

[I]Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.[/I]

And you tell me you must die. You have no faith, all your glory is in death. I've moved my mountain, and you wait for yours to come crashing down on you.

[Guest Midnight Rush]

[QUOTE=Adahn]
And you tell me you must die. You have no faith, all your glory is in death. I've moved my mountain, and you wait for yours to come crashing down on you.[/QUOTE]


That comment is un-called for. You are welcome to share questions, and thoughts regarding Christianity, but you have crossed the line here. Philosophical discussion is one thing, but insulting my friends is another.

You may feel like picking a fight with God... I say go for it, He will deal with you.

I guarantee you you don't want to pick a fight with me... I'll deal with you.

Think about it, and cut the insults.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Midnight Rush]That comment is un-called for. You are welcome to share questions, and thoughts regarding Christianity, but you have crossed the line here. Philosophical discussion is one thing, but insulting my friends is another.

You may feel like picking a fight with God... I say go for it, He will deal with you.

I guarantee you you don't want to pick a fight with me... I'll deal with you.

Think about it, and cut the insults.[/QUOTE]

You find it so easy to tell everyone how they're going to hell if they don't follow what you believe. I'm telling you that there is no hell, and no eternal life for you after you die. I don't have to fight your God, because the God you see doesn't exist. And if you tried to kill me, you'd die trying, because I believe in a God of life. If you found yourself in the path of a train, and you knew you wouldn't have time to get off the tracks, you'd feel several things. One of those feelings would be excitement, and you'd revel in the moment, ready to let your life be taken away from you so you could see the God that cannot save you from death. If I'm on those tracks, I'll tell that train to stop, and it will stop. Sin and Death are the same exact thing. You can't have one without the other. Jesus took sin from us, and he took death from us. You Christians hold on to your death, pouring your souls into it, denying what Christ did for you. Again, you find it so easy to say all those people are going to hell, but you're in the same boat they are. You'll all die and be reborn until you're ready to receive eternal life. Don't you dare tell me I've stepped over the line. If you want to fight me, fight me with truth, if you have any in you.

[Afire]

[quote name='Cyriel']What makes you think this? And why do you say "so-called" Christian church? Why is it falling/failing?[/quote]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]
The reason I say this Cyriel, is because I have lived it. And I lived coming out of it.
And now I can never die.

The only thing expanding in the so called Christian Church, is [I]sacrifice[/I]. If I'm not mistaken; Christ's death signified the [I]end[/I] of sacrifice. The truth is free.
And thank God that the water is free. This is why I say "so called Christian Church", because they deny that the sacrifice is over. This is anti-christ.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[QUOTE=Cyriel]
Why would you say this? What convinces you that we're keeping the power of Satan alive? What makes our image of God perverted? Why would Hell be the resting place for man? And what makes you say that we forcing our beliefs through threats and violence?[/QUOTE]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]
When I was talking there, you can see that I was talking about all religions, not just the so called Christian Church. To threaten small babies and children with thoughts of a devil and hell is the worst threat imaginable. To kill in the name of Jesus in a time of war, or to say, "God Bless America" and forget the rest of the world are both evil.

God blessed the whole world 2000 years ago. To deny this is anti-christ.

What I'm really trying to say here Cyriel, is that your whole salvation is false. You believe that you are saved from an eternal hell.

I am saved from death. The only punishment for sin [I]was[/I] death.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[AzureWolf]

[FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Awesome. Finally, some support and reasoning for your ideas. That's what was really bothering me. Now I'm starting to get a picture about what you are trying to say and where you are going with this thing.

However, I think you are using terms too liberally, or at least, not elaborating on them enough for anyone to understand what you are saying. Life and death are definately the two terms you are using very differently than what most would expect it to be. I think other terms that relate to the concept of existence would be more appropriate.

So, here's what I THINK you are saying (and no, I don't agree with it): God flushed his [B]existence[/B] so we could continue to [B]exist[/B] through a never-ending cycle of [B]life[/B] and [B]death[/B], by removing the one punishment (which was a soul's [B]extinction[/B]).

Is that what you are saying?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]