Questioning Christianity

[AzureWolf]

[FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]What's funny is that Baron is arguing what I initially started arguing about, which you kind of just brushed it aside saying I don't understand you or something.

So we had that huge quest to figure out what you were saying. Don't tell me I was right and you were just leading me in circles... -_-

If that's the case, then yes, logic is lacking. What you want to argue about cannot be argued, so this thread is essentially dead weight. However, since you did announce your ideas for discussion, you have to support it. I mean, yeah, you showed how you arrived at stuff, but the whole "beginning has to have an ending thing" isn't well-established. Not because of you, but because it's not something you can truly argue conceptually.

Just a small off-topic note, there's a "God's DNA" philosophy that you might prescribe to. Check it out, haha.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I know what is right and wrong. But not everyone feels the same way about everything. Which is why searching your soul will not lead two people to the exact same conclusion. Millions of people 'soul-search', and maybe a small proportion of them do it genuinely. But everybody comes back with different views. You have your view, and thats great. But I'd ask you to remember that it might not be true.[/size]

[Adahn]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade]Adahn, do you know what the word "prove" means? You can't tell someone to find proof for something "within himself." If you claim that faith is proof then you do not know what the word [i]proof[/i'] means. Which makes things difficult for you... [/quote][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]How do you know you can't find proof if you don't look?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]
You make claims such as "God is within you," "God 'created us in his image,' from the infinite perfection that is himself," etc. etc. and you have nothing substantial to back them up. You are working off solely your personal interpretation of "holy" scripture.
[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]What can I base my claims off besides what is written in the Bible, and what I've explored in my own heart and mind? I'll ask you the same thing. Have you explored your own heart? If yes, what did you learn?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]
You claim that what you think is the truth. Well, then, the burden of proof lies on you buddy. You're going to have to prove to us that there is no other possible alternative, that there is no other explanation other than yours for everything you've mentioned. You are going to have to prove that the sources you derive your conclusions from are also telling the truth. Prove it. Otherwise your claims are baseless. [/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I can't prove it to you, because I have no sway over your heart, nor your mind. Take what I say to heart, think about it, and then tell me what you feel.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]
__________________________
Also, your explanation of the butterfly theory doesn't help you. It still cannot be tested. Tell me, has an experiment been designed with enough controls to suggest that, indeed, "Since all said factors must be present for the final product, no one is greater than another in determining the outcome." It hasn't. There is no suggestion that the butterfly theory is true. It is a postulation, nothing more.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]It's all physics and chemistry. You don't have to test it. If you add a pinch of salt to a vat of soup, that soup will be different. If a butterfly's wing contributes energy that in some way affects a tornado, that tornado will be different. It's really just logic. If something affects something else, then what it affects is affected...wow, that's odd sounding. If you add energy to a system, that system will change, however slightly. If you remove energy from a system, the system will change. The whole butterfly starting a tornado idea is not testable, but it wasn't meant to be. It was supposed to demonstrate how seemingly small events affect larger events. To take it literally is to miss the entire point.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Edit: Baron Samedi, how do you know that those who genuinely soul-search don't arrive to the same conclusion? There are those who think the way I do, and it is because they can't help themselves. They have to look for truth, because they burn for it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Azurewolf, if something cannot be disproven, doesn't that make it true? Show me something that breaks my little idea of beginnings and endings. Any example will do.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I'd like to re-iterate a point I made a few posts ago. It seems to have been glazed over.

[quote name='Baron Samedi']The thing is, it is big scale occurrences that cause tornadoes. Not mini-dramas. That small breeze will be dissipated and spread around. If it is a calm day, the energy will expend itself in other ways. Why can't you feel it when you blow softly on your hand, if you hold your hand far away. Because the air only has so much energy, which gets... 'burned' off in other ways. And so, a tiny little butterfly flap would most likely not even make it ten centimetres.[/quote]

[b]Edit[/b]: You're correct Adahn. Some people do come to the same conclusion as you. But, not everybody would. Thats all I am saying. Everybody's heart is unique.

And in regard to your challenge to Azurewolf: Not necessarily. It cannot be disproven that humans can't fly. Maybe they're just not trying hard enough. Or, it cannot be disproven that the universe is contained inside Protons. But, neither can it be proven. Sometimes there is no way to come to definite conclusions on an issue.[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]I'd like to re-iterate a point I made a few posts ago. It seems to have been glazed over.



[b]Edit[/b]: You're correct Adahn. Some people do come to the same conclusion as you. But, not everybody would. Thats all I am saying. Everybody's heart is unique.

And in regard to your challenge to Azurewolf: Not necessarily. It cannot be disproven that humans can't fly. Maybe they're just not trying hard enough. Or, it cannot be disproven that the universe is contained inside Protons. But, neither can it be proven. Sometimes there is no way to come to definite conclusions on an issue.[/size][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Ok, here's something more close to home. Think of a good or bad experience that you've had, one that would seem small to others, but had a huge effect on your life. Now, think of how you'd be different if that event didn't happen. It would cause so many changes that you would be very different from the person you are today.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, everybody's heart is unique, but they all share some characteristics. If it is in those places that people search, and the same knowledge is contained within those areas, then people will come to the same conclusion.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]In your last point, you are correct. Absolutely nothing can be proven. However, proof is nothing. Truth is everything. You can't prove or disprove truth, because it stands alone. You can't argue against it, because the opposite of truth are lies. Proof is something man needs to suit his selfish desires, while truth is what man needs to satisfy his spiritual desires.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]That is a great idea Adahn...but where does it leave the poor butterfly, lol. As I see it, it bears little resemblance to the Butterfly Theory [when you view it as being literal], because physical and mental values are different.

The thing is, how can you say that everybody shares the same characteristics in their hearts. A person can only ever know one person. Themself. They cannot know how others think, what they think, how their minds work, what they feel. It is impossible to imagine yourself as being another person. You don't know what I have in my heart, and I don't know whats in yours. So, you cannot say that everyone has the same place in their heart.

You're right, truth is everything. But, unless you can produce proof that other people can see, then although it may be truth, no-one will ever know. And you'll never know if you have the truth, or someone else does. In something like this, there can [i]be no definitive truth[/i].[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]That is a great idea Adahn...but where does it leave the poor butterfly, lol. As I see it, it bears little resemblance to the Butterfly Theory [when you view it as being literal], because physical and mental values are different.

The thing is, how can you say that everybody shares the same characteristics in their hearts. A person can only ever know one person. Themself. They cannot know how others think, what they think, how their minds work, what they feel. It is impossible to imagine yourself as being another person. You don't know what I have in my heart, and I don't know whats in yours. So, you cannot say that everyone has the same place in their heart.

You're right, truth is everything. But, unless you can produce proof that other people can see, then although it may be truth, no-one will ever know. And you'll never know if you have the truth, or someone else does. In something like this, there can [i]be no definitive truth[/i].[/size][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]The butterfly theory is a nice little side topic, and it's meant to be seen as beautiful and deep rather than logical and reasonable.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Next, you are saying that there is no such thing as empathy. Not everyone has all the same characteristics in his/her heart, but [i]some [/i]characteristics are shared. This is what I mean when I say people have the same places in their hearts. If we didn't, one person would see murder as terribly wrong, another wouldn't care, and another would think it was right. People who think it is right are lying to themselves, not listening to their hearts.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Now you're getting into absolute and relative truth. Truth is a personal thing. If you look in the right place, you'll come up with the truth that anyone and everyone is capable of knowing. That is the basis of Christianity, that everyone has the ability to know the truth if they search themselves for it. It's the basis of every religion, actually. *thinks for a moment* That doesn't help my argument much. But, it's true, so I guess it stays. I guess all I can say is that all other religions create places in your heart for themselves, while in Christianity, the truth is already embedded deeply inside.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]How do you know you can't find proof if you don't look?[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]You're only reaffirming my point about your not knowing what the word [i]proof[/i] means.

[QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]What can I base my claims off besides what is written in the Bible, and what I've explored in my own heart and mind? I'll ask you the same thing. Have you explored your own heart? If yes, what did you learn?[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]Don't change topics; this is about you. ...But I guess you did say all you could. Yes, it appears you have no legitimate sources for your information.

[QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I can't prove it to you, because I have no sway over your heart, nor your mind. Take what I say to heart, think about it, and then tell me what you feel.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]Many laws of physics have been proven to me. Many mathematical laws have, as well. Logic is what sways me, Adahn. Faith and baseless claims do not.

[QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]It's all physics and chemistry. You don't have to test it.[/b][/font][/size][/color][/QUOTE]Theories in those realms ARE tested, Adahn. It's what physicists and chemists do.

[QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]If you add a pinch of salt to a vat of soup, that soup will be different. If a butterfly's wing contributes energy that in some way affects a tornado, that tornado will be different.[/b][/font][/size][/color][/QUOTE]Prove it. Prove that the butterfly's wing contributes energy that in some way affects a tornado. Link me to something that has proof. Whatever. Just back up what you say.

[QUOTE] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]It's really just logic. If something affects something else, then what it affects is affected...wow, that's odd sounding. If you add energy to a system, that system will change, however slightly. If you remove energy from a system, the system will change. The whole butterfly starting a tornado idea is not testable, but it wasn't meant to be. It was supposed to demonstrate how seemingly small events affect larger events. To take it literally is to miss the entire point.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]
If the idea is not testable, it doesn't demonstrate. That's like saying that Batman kicking Bruce Lee's arse demonstrates the inherent superiority of Bat-foo over Jeet Kune Do. Make-believe implies bullcrap, lol.
As for your "adding energy to a system to change it," the butterfly theory is not that. There's other physical laws for that one.

[QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Azurewolf, if something cannot be disproven, doesn't that make it true? Show me something that breaks my little idea of beginnings and endings. Any example will do.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]
I'll field this one. If something cannot be disproven, that does NOT make it true. You can't disprove that there are exactly 250,000,000,000 black holes in the universe (I dare you to try, lol). So, is that true, then? According to your reasoning it is.

As for your idea of beginnings and endings, I'm assuming it's that "everything that has a beginning has an end." AzureWolf said that this applies to the physical world (although we might in theory find a counterexample with the universe itself: the planets had a "beginning" from most points of view, but will they have an ending? not if the ever-expanding universe theory is correct...). He then challenged you to... prove?... that this applied to the metaphysical world as well (i.e. the realm of God). YOU are the one who has to come up with an example. Again, you made the claim, so the burden of proof lies on you.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Then why did we have all that 'delightful side-topic' about wind currents then, lol. Yes, the Butterfly Theory works well, in some cases. Not so well in others.

Oh, there is empathy. But I said 'know'. There is a difference between...empathy, and actually knowing exactly what the person is. And yes, I mean what the person is. But, you know, not everybody saw murder as wrong. If you found a dead body in the Middle Ages, not much would be thought of it. Not very much, anyway. It was wrong back then, but not [i]wrong[/i]. It was something that was usual. People didn't care. But there is a difference between right and wrong, and knowing something based on faith. A huge difference. For one, what is right and what is wrong is programmed into us through societal values. Something like this can only come from religious [and therefore biased] or internal sources. Making the truth different for everyone. There may well be an ultimate truth, but internal gazing does not mean that you've found it. Maybe you have, but maybe you haven't. You're logic is based on faith. Which is where the problem arises. I want you to accept that you might not be right, and that there are other possibilities. But faith cannot allow you to have any doubt. And so, you cannot accept other possibilites because of your faith in your own 'truth'. Which leaves us...where? Up **** creek without a paddle, lol.

What about other religions which propose that 'the truth to your troubles is inside of you'? I don't think Christianity was the first to say that, and it certainly wasn't the last.

[b]Edit[/b]: Oh and Sciros, that was me who challenged Adahn to prove that it worked on the metaphysical plane. Leastways, I think it was.[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Then why did we have all that 'delightful side-topic' about wind currents then, lol. Yes, the Butterfly Theory works well, in some cases. Not so well in others.

What about other religions which propose that 'the truth to your troubles is inside of you'? I don't think Christianity was the first to say that, and it certainly wasn't the last.

[b]Edit[/b]: Oh and Sciros, that was me who challenged Adahn to prove that it worked on the metaphysical plane. Leastways, I think it was.[/size][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]The Butterfly Effect is meant to apply to the physical realm, as well as the mental. The movie represented this well.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I tell you now that no widely accepted faith-based system that exists today has all the answers. Where Christianity is wrong, other religions are right, and where other religions are wrong, Christianity is right. I do not, however, blend the ideals. Everything I say comes from the Bible and my own heart, and that is the core of Christianity that nobody recognizes. If you listen to how the Church interprets the Bible, you will not find the truth. If you look for it yourself, you will find it. The Church today is as the Jews were 2,000 years ago when they persecuted Christ.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Trying to prove the metaphysical is impossible.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]But, although the theory behind the Butterfly Effect is relatively sound, it doesn't work in the context of a butterfly. Or indeed, making a tornado. Because localised effects do not spread, and energy expends itself. Yes, events are made up of small events. But a butterfly's participation would not be needed, nor noticeable, in the creation of a tornado. In fact, it wouldn't even count towards it.

You said Christianity was wrong [at least in some parts]. Thankyou. Now we have boiled down this argument to the core; Bible and Heart. Obviously, the Bible can be interpreted within a certain range. But, we'll focus on the Heart. Each person has a different Heart, and can find different things when they look around them. As in, upon deep reflection of his heart, a man may find God to be untrue, and there to be no necessary parameters to live life by. No forgiveness, no redemption. He wouldn't have to follow the rules. Another man, upon deep personal reflection of his heart may find the wonder of God. You get the drift. This is not saying that the unbelievers will go forth to rape and pillage though, lol. Just an example. Therefore we can see that personal reflection can bring forth personal truth, but not necessarily [or perhaps ever] Absolute Truth.

And I do believe you challenged me to prove something metaphysical ~_^

Heh.[/size]

[Afire]

[quote=Midnight Rush]When we are both dead and gone, I will have the last laugh!
[/quote]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=RED]I laughed when I saw this in your signature Midnight Rush. Laughter is a physical reaction. You would need a physical body to laugh now, wouldn't you? Who would really have the last laugh?

Life is in the flesh. The flesh was created to be the home of the spirit. Without a body, your spirit has no home. It cannot feel pleasure. It cannot do anything, period.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Cyriel]

[QUOTE]Everything I say comes from the Bible and my own heart, and that is the core of Christianity that nobody recognizes. If you listen to how the Church interprets the Bible, you will not find the truth. If you look for it yourself, you will find it. The Church today is as the Jews were 2,000 years ago when they persecuted Christ.[/QUOTE]You're absolutely right on that core of Christianity - what you have is a personal relationship with God.

But what I still don't understand is why you say that no one recognizes that as the core. And as for how the Church interprets the Bible, why is there no truth in that? Which Church are you speaking of?

And...I'm just trying to understand here - you're saying that the Church doesn't accept Jesus Christ as dying for their sins, correct?

[Adahn]

[quote name='Cyriel']You're absolutely right on that core of Christianity - what you have is a personal relationship with God[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]That personal relationship is compromised by the teachings of the Church. It is in my opinion that people should be allowed to think for themselves, and this is frowned upon in any and every church. They take their interpretations, and do not allow anyone to challenge them. If you challenge their beliefs, you should go to a different church, because they strive for unity and sameness.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[QUOTE=Cyriel]
But what I still don't understand is why you say that no one recognizes that as the core. And as for how the Church interprets the Bible, why is there no truth in that? Which Church are you speaking of?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Your friend midnight rush recently told me that the core of Christianity was having one chance to accept Jesus, and that one can either accept Him and go to Heaven, or deny Him and go to Hell. The Church I speak of is any and every church that has that basic idea as a part of its foundation. I think that's about all of them.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Cyriel]
And...I'm just trying to understand here - you're saying that the Church doesn't accept Jesus Christ as dying for their sins, correct?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The church doesn't understand that Jesus died[i] for[/i] us. For meaning that we don't have to die. Yes, he did speak of a spiritual rebirth, but that is achieved in life, not after death. He freed us from the law of sin and death. What is the law of sin and death, you ask? If you sin, you will die.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][i]Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Man's body was meant to be immortal to start, but Adam ruined that. Jesus came to earth to undo what Adam did.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is what the Church (defined above) denies. They say that Jesus saved the soul from death, not the body. The soul has always been immortal. Even if it could be cast into hell, it would still exist.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The Church says that only the soul can be saved, and that our bodies are merely shells, but that's wrong. It never says that, anywhere. They had to say this because they could not believe that Jesus saved us from a spiritual [i]and[/i] a physical death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is where true faith begins. Faith in something that is contradicted by everything we know and see. Faith in eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Tahoma][size=2][color=#000000][/color][/size][/font]

[Kanojo]

They said God loves you
and we love you too
But when she looked into their eyes
She saw the crocodile
When she looked into their soul
She saw they meant to eat her alive
They would try to consume her with shame
This evil curse they would try to lay on her
They meant to give her burdens
and weigh her down with judgments
They only needed someone to share
so they could gather strength like the vampire
They said their god had power
but they spoke more of the power of the devil
They said they would pray for her
They sacrificed three toes and a gallon of blood
They even did a rain dance to the god of their emotions
But he could not hear them
The only answer was death
They will recieve glory then
They even shed crocodile tears
They told her she would burn forever
Their god of death would torture her with fire
If she did not turn to the god of death
If she did not hate what they hate out of fear
She saw them tremble
But they could not touch her
Her truth was like a two edged sword
that cut them asunder
They were not allowed to ponder truth
She shoved a stone trident in their mouths
as the truth washed her like the rain
As it restored her innocence
They ran from the truth
They did not want to be free
They said she was evil
She did not believe them
They said his name was Jesus
She laughed because her Lord has this Name
Only the reputation is not the same
For the glory of the Lord
will be revealed in her in time
When this strange and mysterious
work is done
He will appear in all His glory
in those who receive what He has finished
They will never die

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]If it isn't Kanojo....again.

And Adahn, would you care to continue on our previous discussion? My last post remains un-answered. I'd like to see that; I think we were getting somewhere before.[/size]

[Adahn]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']But, although the theory behind the Butterfly Effect is relatively sound, it doesn't work in the context of a butterfly. Or indeed, making a tornado. Because localised effects do not spread, and energy expends itself. Yes, events are made up of small events. But a butterfly's participation would not be needed, nor noticeable, in the creation of a tornado. In fact, it wouldn't even count towards it.[size=2][/quote][/size]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Allow me to nip this in the butt. [color=blue][url="http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci759332,00.html"]Chaos Theory[/url][/color][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]The Chaos theory is in fact, a theory. You can argue that such a small event is irrelevant, but lots of experts in the subject say that it is not. You and I don't have the capacity to debate both sides, seeing as we lack the necessary math and physics skills to effectively support our views.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi]You said Christianity was wrong [at least in some parts'].[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, the commonly accepted interpretation of the Bible is wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi'] Thank you. Now we have boiled down this argument to the core; Bible and Heart. [/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You say very little about the Bible here, and speak mostly of the heart.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']Obviously, the Bible can be interpreted within a certain range.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]True. This is the basis of my arguments against the Church.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']But, we'll focus on the Heart. Each person has a different Heart, and can find different things when they look around them.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Actually, there are certain things a person will find. One is the need to exist forever in some form. If you don't need this, you're inhuman.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']As in, upon deep reflection of his heart, a man may find God to be untrue, and there to be no necessary parameters to live life by.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]If a person wants God to be untrue, he will think he's untrue. When you say this, you're very obviously moving from the realm of the heart to the realm of the mind.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']No forgiveness, no redemption. He wouldn't have to follow the rules.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Nobody [i]has[/i] to follow the rules. People follow consequences. People believe in Christianity because they don't want to go to hell. If they say anything different, they're lying to themselves. I'm not afraid of hell (I don't believe in it). My belief is based on my desire to exist forever in one form or another (namely the one I'm in now).[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']Another man, upon deep personal reflection of his heart may find the wonder of God. You get the drift.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]He'll only find it if he's looking for it and he wants it. Again, we're dealing with the mind. The heart is based upon [i]needs[/i], not desires. When you desire something, your mind immediately starts working. Need is a natural thing. You can't change needs. I need food. I need water. I need to use the bathroom. I need to not be nonexistent.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']This is not saying that the unbelievers will go forth to rape and pillage though, lol. Just an example.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]That's consequences. If you knew there were no consequences, and you wanted to rape and pillage, you'll rape and pillage. Even if there were a chance of consequences, but not too severe, you would still do it. You don't need it. You do desire it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Baron Samedi]Therefore we can see that personal reflection can bring forth personal truth, but not necessarily [or perhaps ever'] Absolute Truth.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Desire brings forth ideas one can pretend come from the heart. Truth comes from need.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
And I do believe you challenged me to prove something metaphysical ~_^

Heh.[/size][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]What have you proven, again?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote=Adahn]You say very little about the Bible here, and speak mostly of the heart.
[/quote]
If only because I don't know much about the Bible, and because you made a big deal out of finding your own truth 'inside of you'.

[quote]Actually, there are certain things a person will find. One is the need to exist forever in some form. If you don't need this, you're inhuman.[/quote]

Not necessarily. This is in part what I argued before; You do not know what everybody feels, only what you feel. Making assumptions that everybody feels the same way is silly, and, sorry to say it, self-centered. I don't want to exist forever. Why would I? I just want to succeed in the here and now. And you cannot tell me otherwise, because you are not me.

[quote]If a person wants God to be untrue, he will think he's untrue. When you say this, you're very obviously moving from the realm of the heart to the realm of the mind.[/quote]
[quote]He'll only find it if he's looking for it and he wants it. Again, we're dealing with the mind. The heart is based upon needs, not desires. When you desire something, your mind immediately starts working. Need is a natural thing. You can't change needs. I need food. I need water. I need to use the bathroom. I need to not be nonexistent.[/quote]

I said that this 'man' could "find" God to be either true/untrue. I did not bring needs or desires into it. What you are saying is that you 'need' God to be true. Therefore, your opinion cannot be trusted. See where I'm coming from?

[quote]What have you proven, again?[/quote]

Nothing, lol. I was referring to your statement that proving the metaphysical was impossible.

And I didn't quote all of your statements, because some of them felt unclear. And because, really, I don't see why we're arguing over the Butterfly Theory, lol.[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
If only because I don't know much about the Bible, and because you made a big deal out of finding your own truth 'inside of you'..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Hmm, if you don't know much about the Bible, you really can't understand anything I'm saying. It's a good book, regardless, and you should read it. One of the requirements for all of my arguments is that you have some understanding of the Bible. Read it, and then tell me how you feel.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
Not necessarily. This is in part what I argued before; You do not know what everybody feels, only what you feel. Making assumptions that everybody feels the same way is silly, and, sorry to say it, self-centered. I don't want to exist forever. Why would I? I just want to succeed in the here and now. And you cannot tell me otherwise, because you are not me..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You're right, Baron Samedi. People have nothing in common. Oh, and yes I can tell you otherwise. You're so afraid of not existing you can't even admit it to yourself. It's a part of humanity. Get used to it. Deal with it. Like I said before, if you don't need that, you're not human.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
I said that this 'man' could "find" God to be either true/untrue. I did not bring needs or desires into it. What you are saying is that you 'need' God to be true. Therefore, your opinion cannot be trusted. See where I'm coming from?.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Hmm, my opinion can't be trusted? I suppose my need for food can't be trusted either. I have a need for truth. I hunger for it. Spirituality feeds that hunger. As soon as someone starts deciding whether something is true or not, they're listening to their mind, not their heart. You brought needs and desires into it, you just did it without thinking.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
Nothing, lol. I was referring to your statement that proving the metaphysical was impossible..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Ok, I was just confused as to why you wrote what you did.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
And I didn't quote all of your statements, because some of them felt unclear. And because, really, I don't see why we're arguing over the Butterfly Theory, lol.[/size][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]When I find something unclear, I ask for clarification...[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I killed the argument over the Chaos Theory, didn't I?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[AzureWolf]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1][b]Edit[/b']: Oh and Sciros, that was me who challenged Adahn to prove that it worked on the metaphysical plane. Leastways, I think it was.[/size][/quote][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Well, you also challenged him about that, but I did that first. Funny enough, he said I was misunderstanding him...

Anyway, the mere fact that Adahn had no clue about the Christian concept of the Holy Trinity (alongside the running in hypocritical circles bit) tells me that Adahn isn't really looking for an answer, but just acknowledgement. Again, how can you question a religion you have no knowledge of? In fact, weren't you saying that the Christian idea of what happened to God is wrong and your version is right? In order to say such a thing, wouldn't you have to know the Christian idea, which was the Holy Trinity?

As your discussion continues with him, Baron, I'm noticing some rather strange returns to my initial arguments...[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Afire]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=RED]There is no mention of a Holy Trinity in the Bible, Azure Wolf. If there is, please show it to me. :) [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][font=book antiqua][size=2][color=blue]Well, you also challenged him about that, but I did that first. Funny enough, he said I was misunderstanding him...

Anyway, the mere fact that Adahn had no clue about the Christian concept of the Holy Trinity (alongside the running in hypocritical circles bit) tells me that Adahn isn't really looking for an answer, but just acknowledgement. Again, how can you question a religion you have no knowledge of? In fact, weren't you saying that the Christian idea of what happened to God is wrong and your version is right? In order to say such a thing, wouldn't you have to know the Christian idea, which was the Holy Trinity?

As your discussion continues with him, Baron, I'm noticing some rather strange returns to my initial arguments...[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Yeah, throw the misunderstanding thing at me some more. I really appreciate it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The father, the son, and the holy ghost. It's all made up to me. I've read the Bible, and there's no such thing as the Holy Trinity in it. I'm looking for discussion. That's why I'm questioning it. I never said I was looking for an answer. I was looking for opposition. I have my answers, I'm just waiting for someone to question what I think. In all 90 or so posts so far, almost none have touched on anything I've named as important. People generally just look for holes in the unimportant aspects of my arguments, and force me to explain surface thoughts. It's really quite annoying, but it's better than nothing. Oh, and if you don't know much about the Holy Trinity yourself, Azurewolf, who are you to say that it is the foundation of Christianity? Have you not read the Bible, either?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Your arguments were all about surface thoughts and ideas, and those things change. It's no wonder you see strange returns, everything's ephemeral.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Nothing wrong with my initials Adahn. Nothing ~_^

[quote name='Adahn']Hmm, if you don't know much about the Bible, you really can't understand anything I'm saying. It's a good book, regardless, and you should read it. One of the requirements for all of my arguments is that you have some understanding of the Bible. Read it, and then tell me how you feel.[/quote]

I can see what you mean, but you based a lot of your 'beliefs' on what you found in your own heart.

[quote]You're right, Baron Samedi. People have nothing in common. Oh, and yes I can tell you otherwise. You're so afraid of not existing you can't even admit it to yourself. It's a part of humanity. Get used to it. Deal with it. Like I said before, if you don't need that, you're not human.[/quote]

People do have things in common. I never said they didn't. I said you can't know what is in everybody's heart. Because, non-existence is... I'm not afraid of it. I don't even think of it. I think you need to get over yourself, and stop assuming that you're right. Yes, people do have some aspects in common. No, you do not know all of those aspects. No, not everyone cares about non-existence. Get used to it. Deal with it. You're only human.

[quote]Hmm, my opinion can't be trusted? I suppose my need for food can't be trusted either. I have a need for truth. I hunger for it. Spirituality feeds that hunger. As soon as someone starts deciding whether something is true or not, they're listening to their mind, not their heart. You brought needs and desires into it, you just did it without thinking.[/quote]

Talk about side-tracked. What if someone,and I'll italicize this for you, [i]looks into their heart and finds there to be no God[/i]? That was what I said a few posts ago, and you have not addressed that. Why does spirituality feed your hunger for Truth? Because, your heart craves it. I don't need spirituality. My heart is different. It's all connected.

Oh, yeah Adahn, you totally put paid to the Chaos Theory. [i]Completely[/i].

Despite the fact that such things occur [i]locally[/i] and their repercussions do [i]not spread[/i].[/size]

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The father, the son, and the holy ghost. It's all made up to me. I've read the Bible, and there's no such thing as the Holy Trinity in it. I'm looking for discussion. That's why I'm questioning it. I never said I was looking for an answer. I was looking for opposition. I have my answers, I'm just waiting for someone to question what I think. In all 90 or so posts so far, almost none have touched on anything I've named as important. People generally just look for holes in the unimportant aspects of my arguments, and force me to explain surface thoughts. It's really quite annoying, but it's better than nothing. Oh, and if you don't know much about the Holy Trinity yourself, Azurewolf, who are you to say that it is the foundation of Christianity? Have you not read the Bible, either?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Your arguments were all about surface thoughts and ideas, and those things change. It's no wonder you see strange returns, everything's ephemeral.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Oh man, do you even think before you write?

Alright, let me clarify a few things you are clearly unaware of. The Bible and Christianity are two different things: one is a book, the other is a religion. Chrisitianity is a religion that is derived from what the Bible says. Unfortunately for your meager arguments, the Bible and Christianity are not interchangable. So, when I say something is in Christian teachings, it does not mean there exists verbally-exact relation. Sometimes, you have to think to figure out the relations.

It's also worth noting that nit-picking at words is a terrible way to go about interpreting and figuring out what the Bible says, because chances are you read the thing in English, which is not the original language the Bible was written in. To nit-pick at a few menial details is to show ignorance of the fact things are lost in translation.

Second, it is not a wise decision to point out the errors of your own argument in order to point out the errors of someone else's argument. Not only does that seriously degrade any chance for people to take you seriously, it also makes little sense. Again (what is this: the fifth time?), let's get something straight here: [B]I have nothing to prove - YOU DO[/B]. If you find it unbelievable that your ideas are being thrown out the window and no one is trying to prove something by it, that's the point. You made an argument about what you believe, SO PROVE IT. If you can't, why bother posting?

Now, hopefully we stand on equal ground about what's what. That in mind, let's look at your first argument on the Holy Trinity: [B][i]"It's all made up to me. I've read the Bible, and there's no such thing as the Holy Trinity in it."[/i][/B] Wow, well, it's good that you noticed that, and if that's your logical reasoning, you've just pointed out a flaw in your argument. To help clarify, I'll edit your comment and show you what's wrong with your statement: [B][i]"It's all made up to me. I've read the Bible, and there's no such thing as {Reincarnation} in it."[/i][/B]

Now, THINK before you respond. Better yet, as you are responding, think about how you arrived at your reincarnation conclusion. Then think, "is it possible that Christianity arrived at a better, more sound conclusion?" Maybe, maybe not, but the fact of the matter is, I'm betting, just like how your flawed logic bore fruit here, your reply will do the same and can be applied right around to the opposing argument.

And I agree with you that I am touching only on what you call "surface thoughts" (terrible name, btw). Yes, I agree that your idea about reincarnation is a trivial and useless surface thought, since the logic behind it shatters so easily; and I'll agree that your concept about souls is poorly developed and still unproven. Seriously, you used the same reasoning you used to argue against the Holy Trinity...

Again, I'm not the source for all things Biblical and Christian, but if I know about the Holy Trinity, I'm sure in a better position than you to argue about their idea of God. Afterall, if you are "questioning Christianity," and haven't a clue about it, you are just spamming. Yet again, I may not be the best person to turn to for this topic, but I don't need to be, since you should have been prepared for things like this and ready to address the issue of the Holy Trinity.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Brasil]

Here's a question for anyone who feels like answering.

If God does exist, why haven't we seen Him?

We could all call attention to the various "Mother Mary in a window shine" "miracles" around, and say that's proof that God exists, but there are really no inherent or implied identities of either Mary or God in those images. People are seeing what they want to see, applying what they want to apply, making all of that purely subjective, and not worth much in discerning if there is a God or not.

If there is no objective evidence (i.e., God Himself opens up the sky and starts talking to everyone in the world) of God's existence, that means God does not exist. Everything else (the subjective "I saw Mother Mary in that shrubbery!") is insubstantial and inconsequential.