Questioning Christianity

[Dagger]

Could you perhaps distill the essence of your philosophy down to, say, several blunt, straightforward sentences (a la the Ten Commandments or whatever)? I'd like to respond, but this thread is so circuitous it makes my head hurt. Although I could critique your original post, I've only been half-heartedly following the discussion and don't know whether or not you've conceded any points since then.

Thanks.

~Dagger~

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Yeah, I haven't skimped on the post quantity (over 1/3 of the total)[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here are the basic ideas which I have already supported, but will gladly do so again.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Man was created to not die.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Adam brought sin unto us, and the punishment for sin is death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]3. Death does not bring about eternal damnation, but rather a cycle of death and rebirth as a punishment.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]4. Jesus came to earth and died to take away our sins.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]5. He freed us from the law of sin and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]6. Those who accept Jesus' sacrifice will be given eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]7. The soul always has been eternal, and salvation is for the flesh.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]8. Eternal life is achieved through life, not death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]9. Denying Jesus' sacrifice by accepting death (which he has taken away) is paying for blood with blood.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]10. Jesus was the final sacrifice, and he will not let us pay for his gift of eternal life with our own blood.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I felt like making it ten. I just came up with these now, and I may have made a mistake, so if I've made an error in judgment here and now, know that I understand that I am human and that I make mistakes.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]Er?

This whole reincarnation thing doesn?t strike me as any interpretation of biblical teaching that I?m familiar with. I?ve always been taught that people who accept Jesus into their lives, ask for forgiveness and live by his word will be accepted into heaven.

Heaven, to my understanding is permanent. As is hell, so I?ve been taught.

Is this your own interpretation of the bible (Which version, by the way), or a Protestant splinter interpretation (If so which)?[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I will respond fully later, but for now, let me ask you something; if once we accept Jesus and the falsehood of necessity of death we will never die, how is it that there are no immortals?

Are you to be the messiah, the first to illustrate your wonderful concept to the rest of the world?[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Er?

This whole reincarnation thing doesn?t strike me as any interpretation of biblical teaching that I?m familiar with. I?ve always been taught that people who accept Jesus into their lives, ask for forgiveness and live by his word will be accepted into heaven.

Heaven, to my understanding is permanent. As is hell, so I?ve been taught.

Is this your own interpretation of the bible (Which version, by the way), or a Protestant splinter interpretation (If so which)?[/color][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]This is my own interpretation. I got it from the Bible, and never read anything like it anywhere else.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The thing about that teaching is that you get things like children burning eternally in hell. They say that everyone has a chance, but by their own definition they condem millions. Why would God create a soul that had no chance of getting into heaven? Why would he create someone who he knew would burn eternally in hell?[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT: Sorry, Baron, you posted after I replied. There are no immortals simply because nobody has ever believed what I'm saying now. I'm no messiah, but rather one of the first to see the truth (if I'm right).[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]So, you're the first one to stumble upon this amazing concept...

Anyway, what about the idea that there is no aim or reward in life, except the chance to experience it again and again. Eternal life.

Or that you are re-incarnated until you reach Nirvana?

Surely there is merit in these things. Or, if you'd care to look at the atheistic or impartial side of the argument, what if there is no hell or no heaven, because God does not exist.

You're quite right: It makes no sense to give people one chance and then send them to hell. What if you lead a good life, but didn't believe? What if you died young? What if you never heard of Christianity?

I think that logically, if you're a believer, the Nirvana kind of image is the most logical. Why would a compassionate God allow you to live forever on this world? An immortal would be caged, and examined. Would watch everyone they love around them die. Is that fair reward? I think not.[/size]

[Adahn]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']So, you're the first one to stumble upon this amazing concept...[size=2][/quote][/size][/size]
[size=1][size=2][/size][/size]
[size=1][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Perhaps not the first, but I was born and bred for this sort of thing. I almost died while I was very young, I almost crashed headfirst into a tree while sledding. However, I stopped, and there was no explanation for how it happened. I then told my atheist mother that I saw a white ghost on top of a tree. I didn't know what angels were, and she didn't believe in them, yet she insists that that is what I said, while she would have gained nothing from making it up. I was not raised a Christian, and am therefore not brainwashed into blind faith, at all.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
Anyway, what about the idea that there is no aim or reward in life, except the chance to experience it again and again. Eternal life.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]If you think that dying and being reborn is a good thing, well then you're in good shape. It's not eternal life, it's an eternal cycle of death and rebirth.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
Or that you are re-incarnated until you reach Nirvana?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]There's more truth in this than you know. I don't know Buddhist teachings, and yet I got the impression that reincarnation until one could accept Jesus was the way things worked. I said before that there was a certain amount of truth in other religions. Is not Nirvana an ascension in life, not achieved after death? Is it not a change during life? It says in the Bible that not all shall sleep, some shall be changed. Sounds alot like Nirvana to me...[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
Surely there is merit in these things. Or, if you'd care to look at the atheistic or impartial side of the argument, what if there is no hell or no heaven, because God does not exist.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]There is no hell, and heaven is right here on earth.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
You're quite right: It makes no sense to give people one chance and then send them to hell. What if you lead a good life, but didn't believe? What if you died young? What if you never heard of Christianity?.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Exactly. This problem, and every other, is solved by reincarnation rather than eternal damnation. If you die young and have never heard of Christianity, you live again with another chance. By the Christian interpretation, if you die young and have never heard of Christianity, you had the same chance as anyone else and deserve to burn eternally.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
I think that logically, if you're a believer, the Nirvana kind of image is the most logical. Why would a compassionate God allow you to live forever on this world? An immortal would be caged, and examined. Would watch everyone they love around them die. Is that fair reward? I think not.[/size][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]There are those that I love who will die, but it brings joy to my heart knowing that their souls will live on. As for being caged and examined, I don't think God would allow that. If he did, however, I guess I would be caged and examined. My only proof of my immortality is that I am alive right now.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Exactly. This problem, and every other, is solved by reincarnation rather than eternal damnation. If you die young and have never heard of Christianity, you live again with another chance. By the Christian interpretation, if you die young and have never heard of Christianity, you had the same chance as anyone else and deserve to burn eternally.[/color][/size][/font][/b'] [/quote]

[color=green]Since this whole reincarnation bit isn't spelled out in the Bible, as it is in other religions, you'd have to pretty broadly interpret some very vague quotes to come to that conclusion.

Care to share them?[/color]

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='Adahn']There is no hell, and heaven is right here on earth.[/quote]

I think that's about the most depressing thing I've ever read. You sound like Belinda Carlisle.

[Afire]

[quote name='wrist cutter']I think that's about the most depressing thing I've ever read. You sound like Belinda Carlisle.[/quote]


[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][COLOR=Red]Belinda Carlisle rocks!

Heaven Is A Place On Earth
When the night falls down
I wait for you
And you come around
And the world's alive
With the sound of kids
On the street outside

When you walk into the room
You pull me close and we start to move
And we're spinning with the stars above
And you lift me up in a wave of love...

Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth ?
Ooh heaven is a place on earth
They say in heaven love comes first
We'll make heaven a place on earth
Ooh heaven is a place on earth

When I feel alone
I reach for you
And you bring me home
When I'm lost at sea
I hear your voice
And it carries me

In this world we're just beginning
To understand the miracle of living
Baby I was afraid before
But I'm not afraid anymore

Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth ?
Ooh heaven is a place on earth
They say in heaven love comes first
We'll make heaven a place on earth
Ooh heaven is a place on earth
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Since this whole reincarnation bit isn't spelled out in the Bible, as it is in other religions, you'd have to pretty broadly interpret some very vague quotes to come to that conclusion.

Care to share them?[/color][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]This is not easy, but I will do what I can. I know you can interpret these to your own ends, as can I, but I will show you that my conclusions are not unfounded.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][i]1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The first thing you should know is that when I read the Bible, the womb and the grave seemed remarkably similar to me.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][i]Psa 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This supports my vague idea that reincarnation is a punishment because nobody will remember who you were or the deeds you accomplished in life.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b]Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.[/b][/color][/size][/font][/i]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This speaks more of rising from the grave (womb). It also speaks of the pit, and makes a distinction between it and the grave.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b]Pro 30:16 The grave; and the barren womb; the earth [that] is not filled with water; and the fire [that] saith not, [It is] enough.[/b][/color][/size][/font][/i]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here, the grave and the barren womb are placed together, and used in a comparison with the parched earth that always wants water and fire that always wants fuel. I could write an essay about what I think about this, but the basic idea is that the womb and the grave are opposites. The womb is dependent on the grave. The fire is dependent on life sprung up on the earth. If a womb is barren, the grave is useless to it (no reincarnation). If the earth is barren, then it can provide no fuel for the fire.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]In the grave, there is no work, device, knowledge, or wisdom. I always thought hell gave people a chance to suffer their minds to know their wrong, but here it says all is forgotten. Does this not seem to work with the womb? You can't do anything, there are no objects to work with, there is no knowledge, and there is no wisdom.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Job thinks that he is being condemned by God, but is still faithful. He doesn't say "naked I was born, and naked will I die". He says he's going back to the womb, because God has seemingly forsaken him. I do not see why he would say that unless he meant it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, and wrist cutter, heaven is on earth, but not for people like her *shudders*.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b][i][b]


[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b][/i][b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
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[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]In regards to your joy in knowing that their souls will live on, then why cannot you find joy in the continual cycle of life and rebirth? Until a person dies, they may as well be immortal.

I thought of a great challenge to give you. Get a digital camera with video capabilities, and find someone who will film you stepping out into the path of a car. If you die, or if you live, get them to post it online, and link the video here. If you survived, unharmed, then I imagine there'd be a great fuss worldwide, and your point would be proven. And if you didn't, you'd be another nutcase with a death-wish.

Of course, I am not advocating that you do this. I am positive that you would either

a) die or
b) be killed.

Oh, wait. Let's add

c) be seriously injured.

It'd be an interesting hypothetical point. Which shall never be proven.

I am...not an atheist. I don't believe there is no God. But I don't believe that there is a God. Do you see? I don't commit myself to either case, because both cases have merit. And both cases have flaws. I don't think that immortality is achievable, at least here. And why would you want to be immortal here? Rather, a Nirvana type place [i.e. heaven] seems far more likely. If there was a God, I'd like to think he had a better place than this envisioned for those who reached the 'enlightenment' you refer to.[/size]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here are the basic ideas which I have already supported, but will gladly do so again.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

Holy mother, your posts have an insane amount of formatting.

Anyway, thanks again for clarifying that. Some of your ideas are more unorthodox than others, but I don't think any of them are truly outside the bounds of Christianity as an organized religion. Protestantism covers a lot more ground than you might think. So I'd appreciate it if you reiterated your gripes with the institute of the church and/or the religion itself; I suspect that your main mistake lies in assuming most churches and sects approach education, etc. the same way.

~Dagger~

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]First to Baron. I don't have to put myself in harm's way on purpose, because I do it very often unintentionally. I should have died lots of times (most of them while in some sort of car), but I never even get scratched. The earth actually is a pretty nice place. It was made for us. The only thing that's wrong with it is that it is filled with those who won't stop sinning. The earth is perfect for those who accept Jesus. I'm having a good run of it, anyway.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Next, to Dagger. My main gripes are...[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. The Christian belief that everyone gets one life, and if one doesn't accept Jesus in that life, one will burn eternally.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. The Christian belief that one can only attain eternal life after one has died.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]3. The Christian belief that the body is a shell carrying the infinitely more important soul.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'll explain these a little bit. By the Christian belief, anyone who doesn't accept Jesus burns eternally when he/she dies. They insist everyone has the same chance. This is quite simply untrue. There are millions of people, including children, who are not presented with Christianity, and who die without ever having a chance. Tell me a 5-year old living in a native tribe untouched by civilization has the same chance as you or I of accepting Jesus, and I will call you a liar.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The next two go together. Our souls cannot die, so why do Christians insist that Jesus took death from our spirit, and not from our bodies? Is life such a punishment that we must suffer death to escape it? I believe that Jesus didn't lie when he said he took our sins. Sin and death cannot exist without each other. If Jesus took sin, he took death. If you deny this, then you deny everything he did. God created us in his image. I do not think that the body was meant to be a useless shell that houses the spirit.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm done for now, respond if you so desire.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

Adahn, are you viewing the Original Sin/Death thing as purely black and white? Either someone knows Jesus or they will die? Now, I'm not a smart man, but I'm pretty sure there are some major parts in the Christian religion/theology that allow you to redeem yourself, just like how Jesus is the Redemption of Adam.

A young child, while inherently Sinned through Original Sin, is not doomed to burn in hellfire, because that child can redeem his or herself by accepting Jesus' love, or the "Truth." "Repent and ye shall be saved" should ring a bell.

Now, I've gathered from your numerous posts/rants here that your idea is better, because there's no burning in hell.

Maybe I'm just missing some key point here, but you've said numerous times that if people don't accept your "Truth," they're going to burn in Hell, and if they accept your "Truth," they will live in eternal happiness or pleasure, or something to that effect.

Everyone, am I the only one who does not see any difference at all between Adahn's "solution" and the Christian doctrine of Redemption?

We've got Adahn's "Accept the 'truth' and you will be saved," and then Christianity's "Accept the 'truth' and you will be saved."

The eternal happiness/bliss that Adahn's preaching here...it's no different than the Christian idea of Heaven.

[i]There is absolutely no difference between the two ideas[/i].

This thread is over.

[Dagger]

Your first complaint applys far more to fundamentalism than to Christianity as a whole. The church that my family attends is not a part of some extremist sect--our minister recently served as the moderator of the Presbyterian General Assembly--but very few of its members believe that only Christians will go to heaven.

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The earth actually is a pretty nice place. It was made for us. The only thing that's wrong with it is that it is filled with those who won't stop sinning.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

It's impossible to stop sinning altogether. To me it seems as though you're implying otherwise, but perhaps I'm over-reading.

[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The next two go together. Our souls cannot die, so why do Christians insist that Jesus took death from our spirit, and not from our bodies? Is life such a punishment that we must suffer death to escape it? I believe that Jesus didn't lie when he said he took our sins. Sin and death cannot exist without each other. If Jesus took sin, he took death. If you deny this, then you deny everything he did. God created us in his image. I do not think that the body was meant to be a useless shell that houses the spirit.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm done for now, respond if you so desire.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]

You assume that death automatically causes or is somehow equivalent to suffering. Death can be (and often is) peaceful, even welcomed, particularly by those who have lived long and fulfilling lives. Is it wrong for someone who is very old and physically weak to yearn to meet his God? As you near the end of your life, your body does start transforming into a useless shell. The human body, much like human nature, is inherently imperfect--I, for one, certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity as I am now.

God may have modeled our capacity to love and care after his, but people all [I]look[/I] very different. So much of the Bible tells us to think not of wordly matters; what could be more worldly than one's own physical form? What could be a better reward for true faith than being allowed to transcend the limitations of that form? The body is not "useless," but it should definitely come second to the soul. What would you tell people who were born (or have become) crippled, or people who hate their bodies for being deformed or unattractive? I'd take eternal life in heaven over eternal life in my earthly body any day.

FYI, I'm agnostic. I was raised Christian and still attempt to keep up with church affairs, but it's not something that truly appeals to me in my heart of hearts.

~Dagger~

[Adahn]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']Your first complaint applys far more to fundamentalism than to Christianity as a whole. The church that my family attends is not a part of some extremist sect--our minister recently served as the moderator of the Presbyterian General Assembly--but very few of its members believe that only Christians will go to heaven.[/quote][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I believe that only people who accept Jesus can enter heaven...[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Dagger IX1]
It's impossible to stop sinning altogether. To me it seems as though you're implying otherwise, but perhaps I'm over-reading.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Is it?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]


[QUOTE=Dagger IX1]
You assume that death automatically causes or is somehow equivalent to suffering. Death can be (and often is) peaceful, even welcomed, particularly by those who have lived long and fulfilling lives. Is it wrong for someone who is very old and physically weak to yearn to meet his God? As you near the end of your life, your body does start transforming into a useless shell. The human body, much like human nature, is inherently imperfect--I, for one, certainly wouldn't want to spend eternity as I am now. [/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I make no such assumption. Death is a sacrifice. To accept death is to deny everything Jesus did. An old person who wishes to meet his God after death will only find himself with another chance to accept Jesus. If Jesus is in us, and life works in him, then aging can be stopped. Would you not want to be forever young?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Dagger IX1]
God may have modeled our capacity to love and care after his, but people all [i]look[/i] very different. So much of the Bible tells us to think not of wordly matters; what could be more worldly than one's own physical form? What could be a better reward for true faith than being allowed to transcend the limitations of that form? The body is not "useless," but it should definitely come second to the soul. What would you tell people who were born (or have become) crippled, or people who hate their bodies for being deformed or unattractive? I'd take eternal life in heaven over eternal life in my earthly body any day.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Jesus healed the sick with the power of faith. Why would Jesus heal the physical form of so many if it meant nothing? If Jesus healed the crippled with faith, then the crippled can heal themselves using the same power. If your earthly body were perfected by faith, would you still toss it away?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Dagger IX1]
FYI, I'm agnostic. I was raised Christian and still attempt to keep up with church affairs, but it's not something that truly appeals to me in my heart of hearts

~Dagger~[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Why does Christianity not appeal? I was not raised a Christian, and here I am today, a Christian.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]EDIT[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[size=2][QUOTE=Siren][/size]
Adahn, are you viewing the Original Sin/Death thing as purely black and white? Either someone knows Jesus or they will die? Now, I'm not a smart man, but I'm pretty sure there are some major parts in the Christian religion/theology that allow you to redeem yourself, just like how Jesus is the Redemption of Adam.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]I don't understand what you're trying to say. Believing that Jesus saved us from sin and death is redemption.[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
A young child, while inherently Sinned through Original Sin, is not doomed to burn in hellfire, because that child can redeem his or herself by accepting Jesus' love, or the "Truth." "Repent and ye shall be saved" should ring a bell..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]I don't understand what you're trying to say here either.[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Now, I've gathered from your numerous posts/rants here that your idea is better, because there's no burning in hell..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Yes, that is a part of why my idea is better.[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Maybe I'm just missing some key point here, but you've said numerous times that if people don't accept your "Truth," they're going to burn in Hell, and if they accept your "Truth," they will live in eternal happiness or pleasure, or something to that effect..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]I said I don't believe in hell. If you don't accept my truth, you are reborn. You misunderstand.[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Everyone, am I the only one who does not see any difference at all between Adahn's "solution" and the Christian doctrine of Redemption?.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]You are basing everything after this on your misunderstanding.[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
We've got Adahn's "Accept the 'truth' and you will be saved," and then Christianity's "Accept the 'truth' and you will be saved.".[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Christians say, "Accept the truth, and after death, you will go to heaven." I say, "Accept the truth, and you will never die."[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
The eternal happiness/bliss that Adahn's preaching here...it's no different than the Christian idea of Heaven..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Yes it is...[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
[i]There is absolutely no difference between the two ideas[/i]..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Yes there is...[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
This thread is over..[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Is it really? Perhaps you should ask me what my ideas are before mangling everything I've been trying to say.[/color][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. The Christian belief that everyone gets one life, and if one doesn't accept Jesus in that life, one will burn eternally.

I'll explain these a little bit. By the Christian belief, anyone who doesn't accept Jesus burns eternally when he/she dies. They insist everyone has the same chance. This is quite simply untrue. There are millions of people, including children, who are not presented with Christianity, and who die without ever having a chance. Tell me a 5-year old living in a native tribe untouched by civilization has the same chance as you or I of accepting Jesus, and I will call you a liar.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]

[color=green]Really? I'd say that Christianity is exactly the kind of religion that would allow unsaved children to burn.

After all, the god it worships wasn't above killing all the firstborn sons of Egypt to punish one man for stubbornness...[/color]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Really? I'd say that Christianity is exactly the kind of religion that would allow unsaved children to burn.

After all, the god it worships wasn't above killing all the firstborn sons of Egypt to punish one man for stubbornness...[/color][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I don't think those children burn. Yes, they were killed, but if reincarnation is true, those children were reborn. This is one of the points of Christianity I challenge; its hell.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I don't think those children burn. Yes, they were killed, but if reincarnation is true, those children were reborn. This is one of the points of Christianity I challenge; its hell.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

[color=green]Yes, but every Christian group I know of, Catholic and Protestant, doesn?t hold any stock in reincarnation.

There are many, many reference in the bible to hell. Far more than I'd care to quote, and I'd suspect more than you can twist to point towards reincarnation.

How can you ignore this? You can't pick and choose biblical teachings, ignoring parts you disagree with and holding up those that support your ideas...[/color]

[Lunai]

[font=comic sans ms][color=goldenrod]Well, you really aren't able to tell him he "can't"...I know a few people who believe in Trinity who also believe in the possilbilty of reincarnation. What you are saying is that there is no Christian doctrine that allows for reincarnation - but I have yet to read anything in the Bible that tells me that anyone cannot take ideas from other cultures and incorporate them in their faith. Last time I checked, the only ones telling me I couldn't do that was the Church itself.[/font][/color]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Lunai][font=comic sans ms][color=goldenrod]Well, you really aren't able to tell him he "can't"...I know a few people who believe in Trinity who also believe in the possilbilty of reincarnation. What you are saying is that there is no Christian doctrine that allows for reincarnation - but I have yet to read anything in the Bible that tells me that anyone cannot take ideas from other cultures and incorporate them in their faith. Last time I checked, the only ones telling me I couldn't do that was the Church itself.[/font'][/color][/quote]

[color=green]There's a major difference between incorporating different cultural aspects into one's faith and altering that faith.

Reincarnation isn't recognized in the bible, hell is.

That's the bottom line.[/color]

[Ben]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Why does Christianity not appeal? I was not raised a Christian, and here I am today, a Christian.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]


[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f]Christians say, "Accept the truth, and after death, you will go to heaven." I say, "Accept the truth, and you will never die."[/color][/font][/b]
[/QUOTE]

In the first quotation, you call yourself a Christian, in the second, you make it sound as if you and Christians are two different identities.

Which you are, really. It's just as Boba Fett said; you can't pick and choose what you believe and don't believe. You either believe the whole thing, or you don't. You cannot make up your own teaching and call it Christian.

What's your choice?

Christianity, or Adahnism?

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Adahn][b]I don't understand[/b] what you're trying to say. Believing that Jesus saved us from sin and death is redemption.

[b]I don't understand[/b] what you're trying to say here either.[/quote]
Oh, I think you understand just fine, and you know that what I'm saying is punching a major hole in your entire argument here, and you're desperately trying to deflect it by denying that you comprehend what I'm saying. I think you understand it just fine, Adahn...you understand it just fine.

Try to read and address the entire post instead of attempting a point-by-point rebuttal, because I have a feeling that you have to take things out of context so you can misconstrue a meaning, because if you attempt to counter the full post, you simply are unable to, given your faulty argument.

Now, even though you and I both know my post was exceedingly easy to understand, I'll reiterate what I said.

Concerning Original Sin, people aren't doomed for eternity when they are able to redeem themselves, meaning, your entire take on the Christian idea of Original Sin being unfair is invalid, as anyone is be able to reach Heaven.

It's not black and white with Original Sin. If you have inherent Sin, you're not automatically doomed to hell, because Jesus was Adam's Redemption (Jesus was the Prodigal Son; Adam, the Fallen Son), and because of Jesus redeeming Adam, 5-year-old children are not necessarily going to burn in hell.

You've been portraying Original Sin (yes, Original Sin...not Hell) as some...ultimate, all-encompassing destructive entity that will never waver and will always wholly and utterly doom everyone, stripping away all the chance they have of ever having a positive existence.

[QUOTE]Yes, that is a part of why my idea is better.

I said I don't believe in hell. If you don't accept my truth, you are reborn. You misunderstand.[/QUOTE]
Let this sink in: in your take on things, you still have Hell being quite, quite prominent. Let me ask you...if people don't subscribe to your theory, what will happen to them? You said it yourself in a previous post:

[quote name='Adahn']The reward is eternal life. I am not giving it to them. If they want to waste their lives and die, then yes, they are getting what they want.[/quote]
When someone does not subscribe to your idea, they're going to die. And if they die without being saved, what's happening to them? Hell.

I think we have a case here of someone trying to change the meaning of what they're saying as it best suits them.

[QUOTE]You are basing everything after this on your misunderstanding.[/QUOTE]
Ah, but we're both understanding what the other is saying here, so there is no misunderstanding, only an exposing of your faulty argument.

[QUOTE]Christians say, "Accept the truth, and after death, you will go to heaven." I say, "Accept the truth, and you will never die."[/QUOTE]
And what is so wrong with the Christian Theology here? Furthermore, I recall an older proverb/adage I read a few years back...the story goes:

[quote]A man walked beside the river bed, in his usual morning stroll. The sun was shining warm upon his face, and the sweet Western winds softly blew. As he approached a divergence in the brook, he heard a faint cry of distress coming from not too far away. He rushed to this voice, and there he saw a woman, barely able to stay above the surface.

In what was surely a heroic gesture, he dove into the water, swam to this woman, and brought her to shore.

This young woman was so grateful that she granted this man one wish. The man, being humble and not desiring material goods, thought to himself for a moment, then answered, "Grant me not gold nor silver, for they mean little to me. I have only these clothes on my back, and I desire not to change that. But if there were ever a man whom I seek to become, that man is wise Solomon. He is so learned, and if I would be able to gain eternal knowledge, I would be most grateful."

The woman granted his wish, "Ask for eternal knowledge, and ye shall receive. You will dwarf the intellectual giants of the past, and even far, far into the upcoming years. Your knowledge will reign supreme."

At this, the man was most pleased, but something perplexed him, yet he was unable to realize what it was that was disconcerting.

After centuries had passed, and his loved ones were long since buried; after entire empires rose and fell, when the world suddenly became a cold technology before his very eyes, the man then understood:

Eternal life is only a blessing when you have friends and kin to share it with. Tis a curse all else.[/quote]
[QUOTE] Yes it is...

Yes there is...[/QUOTE]
You're still punishing people for doubting your radicalist interpretation. It's no different. Your brief, terse replies are significant evidence that you know this to be true.

[quote]Is it really? Perhaps you should ask me what my ideas are before mangling everything I've been trying to say.[/QUOTE]
Again, there has been no mangling on my part, because your ideas were mangled to begin with, and were based on such a twisted and faulty "logic" that under closer analysis, they fall apart entirely.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]In regards to what you're saying Siren, Adahn's view is a lot different, because Adahn doesn't believe in Hell. He has repeatedly stated that if you don't find the truth, you are merely re-incarnated. Again, and again, and again. So, you're a bit off course there.

But Adahn, I would like to see how you refute all the mentions of Hell in the Bible.

You see, I've come...quite close to dying twice. One time we crashed off the road. Somehow we didn't end nose up in the massively steep ditch, and somehow we didn't hit the only tree in the paddock [missed it by about one and a half metres]. On the other occasion, if I'd started pedalling about two sconds earlier, I would have been in front of the car, instead of hitting it's front wheel. I've been close too. Sometimes you just get lucky. I consider myself very lucky.[/size]