Questioning Christianity

[Brasil]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']In regards to what you're saying Siren, Adahn's view is a lot different, because Adahn doesn't believe in Hell. He has repeatedly stated that if you don't find the truth, you are merely re-incarnated. Again, and again, and again. So, you're a bit off course there.[/size][/quote]
Baron, my point is that there is still a Hell in his theory, though it may not be literal. Either you subscribe to his theory or you don't, and if you don't, then you waste away and die. He's stated this, and I've quoted him on it.

Wasting away and dying certainly doesn't sound like re-incarnation to me...what do you think? When I hear "[i]wasting away[/i] and dying," Dante's Inferno comes to mind, and we're all aware of what Dante's Inferno is. ~_^

Let's put it this way. Not to be rude, but I think Adahn's theory is a load of horsesh-t. I think he's trying to connect dots that simply can't be connected, trying to twist something in a direction that simply can't be spun like that. This isn't like someone making a case for the Imperial Empire in Star Wars, or Fate in Terminator. ;)

Now, since I view Adahn's theory as a load of horsesh-t that has absolutely no substantial basis to build on, I'm not even going to consider the outlandish idea. I'm throwing the entire theory right out to begin with, which is what most people here have done, and I have a feeling, that's what the majority of people in the world would do, apart from a few misguided cult-ish individuals.

What are the implications of that? Where I don't even buy into any tiny part of Adahn's...thing?

"Wasting away and dying."

You accept what Adahn is saying...you accept his new, radicalist interpretation of the Bible instead of approximately 2000 years of a steady interpretation, you get "saved" ("blessed" with eternal life--but seriously, who in their right mind would want that, anyway?). You treat the theory as crap, which is what many people would do, and you're going to get punished for it. Don't let Adahn fool you, Baron; there's definitely still a Hell in his theory. He just either: A) doesn't realize it; B) won't admit it.

[Dagger]

[quote name='Siren']You accept what Adahn is saying...you accept his new, radicalist interpretation of the Bible instead of approximately 2000 years of a steady interpretation, you get "saved" ("blessed" with eternal life--but seriously, who in their right mind would want that, anyway?). You treat the theory as crap, which is what many people would do, and you're going to get punished for it. Don't let Adahn fool you, Baron; there's definitely still a Hell in his theory. He just either: A) doesn't realize it; B) won't admit it.[/quote]

Ohhh, I think see what you mean. You're framing the situation in relative terms, right? His theory lacks a "Hell" of the fire-and-brimstone nature described in the Bible, but for whatever it's worth, he still believes that people who don't accept Jesus will be punished. If reincarnation is the worst possible punishment in Adahn's theory, it is simply the Hell of his system of belief.

~Dagger~

[Adahn]

[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][color=#000000]rev·e·la·tion [/color][url="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Drevelation"][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg[/img][/url][color=#000000] ([/color][color=red][font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font][/color][color=#000000]) [/color][url="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html"][color=#0033ff]Pronunciation Key[/color][/url][color=#000000] (r[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gif[/img]v[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif[/img][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]-l[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif[/img][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif[/img]sh[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]n)[/b]
[b][i]n.[/i] [/color]
[list=1][list=1]
[*]

The act of revealing or disclosing.
[*]Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized.
[/list]

[*][u][i]Theology.[/i][/u] A manifestation of divine will or truth.
[*][b]Revelation[/b][i] Abbr. [/i][b]Rev.[/b] or [b]Rv.[/b] [u][i]Bible.[/i][/u] See table at [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Bible"][color=#0033ff]Bible[/color][/url].
[/list][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I believe that this already happened.[/color][/size][/font][/b]



[size=2][b][i]Jhn 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.[/i][/b][/size]

[size=2][b][i]Jhn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.[/i][/b][/size]

[size=2][b][i]Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.[/i][/b][/size]

[b][size=2]First of all, take note of how Jesus uses the word sleep, I will refer to it later. Secondly, this Lazarus guy died, correct? So, Jesus pulled him out of eternal damnation? I think not. Jesus saved him from having to be born again. There is no hell Siren, or this man would have burned in it eternally.[/size][/b]

[size=2][b][i]1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[/i][/b][/size]

[b][size=2]What is sleep again? Sleep is death. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. This means that the world [i]will[/i] be perfect. It also says that some will never die. All I'm doing is accepting my salvation now, while the rest of you would rather just die. I believe that the world will be good, and I will not die before I see that, nor will I die afterwards.[/size][/b]

[size=2][b]EDIT:[/b][/size]

[b][size=2]Hell generally has the meaning of eternal torture and damnation. There is no hell, only what we know. Heaven and earth, life and death, immortality, they're all right here. My hell (as you use the word) is another chance at eternal life. It's not so much a punishment as a lack of a reward.[/size][/b][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Adahn]Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

rev·e·la·tion [url="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Drevelation"][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg[/img][/url] ( P ) [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html"]Pronunciation Key[/url] (r[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gif[/img]v[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif[/img][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]-l[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif[/img][img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif[/img]sh[img]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]n)
n.
[list=1][list=1]
[*]

The act of revealing or disclosing.
[*]Something revealed, especially a dramatic disclosure of something not previously known or realized.
[/list]

[*]Theology. A manifestation of divine will or truth.
[*]Revelation Abbr. Rev. or Rv. Bible. See table at [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Bible"]Bible[/url].
[/list]I believe that this already happened.[/quote]
The Book of Revelations is about the [i]end of the world[/i] for a reason. It's called The Final Judgment for a reason. It's very clearly [i]prophesied[/i] in the Bible for a reason. That reason is that it [i]hasn't happened yet[/i].

[QUOTE]Jhn 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Jhn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

First of all, take note of how Jesus uses the word sleep, I will refer to it later. Secondly, this Lazarus guy died, correct? So, Jesus pulled him out of eternal damnation? I think not. Jesus saved him from having to be born again. There is no hell Siren, or this man would have burned in it eternally.
[/QUOTE]Sleep=[i]eternal[/i] death. Lazarus died, and depending on the pretext for his death, would have either gone to Heaven or Hell. This isn't all that hard. Jesus resurrected him because Jesus was a cool guy and did that sort of thing.

And remember, Christ's love redeems ([i]saves man from eternal damnation[/i]. Remember [b][i]Adam[/i][/b].). Christ has the power, and he used that power to save Lazarus.

This isn't a hard concept to understand.

[QUOTE]1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

What is sleep again? Sleep is death. We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed. This means that the world will be perfect. It also says that some will never die. All I'm doing is accepting my salvation now, while the rest of you would rather just die. I believe that the world will be good, and I will not die before I see that, nor will I die afterwards.[/QUOTE]Sleep=[i]eternal[/i] death. People will not be dead forever. This refers to Revelations, the Final Judgment, and then, after the judgment, eternal happiness in the Kingdom of Heaven. The death is a transformation, and death is[i] unavoidable[/i].

Are you claiming to be immortal, Adahn?

[quote]EDIT:

Hell generally has the meaning of eternal torture and damnation. There is no hell, only what we know. Heaven and earth, life and death, immortality, they're all right here. [b]My hell (as you use the word) is another chance at eternal life. It's not so much a punishment as a lack of a reward[/b].[/QUOTE][i]No, your Hell is a Bill Murray movie called Groundhog Day[/i].

Humans dislike redundancy. That much should be clear from the posts by AzureWolf, Sciros, Baron Samedi, Dagger, and myself in this very thread.

Adahn, you're not improving the existence of anyone by forcing them to endure consecutive existences on into infinity simply because they can't accept this "truth" you've arbitrarily constructed.

Furthermore, you're not improving the existence of anyone by having them endure one endless existence, because, let's face the facts: nobody wants to live forever, because they'll always be alone. Everyone they know will have died. They'll never be able to have any lasting relationships.

Have you even considered the implications of what you're preaching here?

You're talking about putting people into a vicious existential cycle that they have absolutely no control over, except if they submit to your will, and then, if they do, you're putting them into an endless singular existence in which they'll be alone forever.

Immortality is boring as hell.

Your idea is no better than the [i]Christian[/i] idea of Hell, because the [i]Adahn[/i] idea of Hell is just as bad. The Christian Hell is a [i]physical[/i] torture; your Hell is a [i]psychological[/i] torture.

C'mon, man, just admit it. You haven't thought this out at all, yet you still expect everyone to follow you because you think you arrived at the answer.

EDIT: Also, Ben and Boba Fett have posted here with some good points, and you have yet to reply to them. Please do so. I'd be interested in what you would try to use in a rebuttal.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]First, to both Ben and Boba Fett, I am ignoring nothing. I am merely interpreting everything differently. I'm not choosing which parts to believe and ignoring others, I'm taking it as a whole and doing the same thing Christians do; try to find the meaning of what is written.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[quote name='Siren]The Book of Revelations is about the [i]end of the world[/i] for a reason. It's called The Final Judgment for a reason. It's very clearly [i]prophesied[/i] in the Bible for a reason. That reason is that it [i]hasn't happened yet[/i'].[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The world ended when Jesus died. Final Judgment has already been passed.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Sleep=[i]eternal[/i] death. Lazarus died, and depending on the pretext for his death, would have either gone to Heaven or Hell. This isn't all that hard. Jesus resurrected him because Jesus was a cool guy and did that sort of thing.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I feel I must correct you. He had been dead for four days, which means (according to you) he [i]was[/i] in heaven or hell. Jesus wouldn't have pulled him out of heaven. What you're saying is that Jesus pulled him out of hell, correct?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
And remember, Christ's love redeems ([i]saves man from eternal damnation[/i]. Remember [b][i]Adam[/i][/b].). Christ has the power, and he used that power to save Lazarus.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Christ's love saves us from [i]death[/i]. I remember Adam, Adam brought death to man. If Christ has the power to bring men back from hell, then when he died, he destroyed hell, [i]just like I said before.[/i] He has the keys to hell and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[i]Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.[/i]

[QUOTE=Siren]
This isn't a hard concept to understand.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I don't understand how he could pull a man out of hell and not do the same for everyone else. Revelation is what happened. It was done when Christ died. The end of the world happened, it's just that people missed it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Sleep=[i]eternal[/i] death. People will not be dead forever. This refers to Revelations, the Final Judgment, and then, after the judgment, eternal happiness in the Kingdom of Heaven. The death is a transformation, and death is[i] unavoidable[/i].

Are you claiming to be immortal, Adahn?

[i]No, your Hell is a Bill Murray movie called Groundhog Day[/i].

Humans dislike redundancy. That much should be clear from the posts by AzureWolf, Sciros, Baron Samedi, Dagger, and myself in this very thread.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]So, death is unavoidable. Hmm, I thought I made a pretty good point that Jesus took death from us, seeing as he said it [i]over and over and over and...[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, I am claiming to be immortal. No, you don't live the same day over and over again. If you fail to accept eternal life now, then you get another chance, with another life. You people don't want to live forever? Then by all means, deny what Jesus did and keep being reborn. It's your choice.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Adahn, you're not improving the existence of anyone by forcing them to endure consecutive existences on into infinity simply because they can't accept this "truth" you've arbitrarily constructed.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This doesn't happen forever. We will all be changed (made immortal). I'm going to have my immortality now. You can wait if you like, it's none of my concern.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Furthermore, you're not improving the existence of anyone by having them endure one endless existence, because, let's face the facts: nobody wants to live forever, because they'll always be alone. Everyone they know will have died. They'll never be able to have any lasting relationships.

Have you even considered the implications of what you're preaching here?

You're talking about putting people into a vicious existential cycle that they have absolutely no control over, except if they submit to your will, and then, if they do, you're putting them into an endless singular existence in which they'll be alone forever.

Immortality is boring as hell.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, I've considered everything. This isn't one person being immortal and seeing everyone die. Everyone can be immortal, including those you love. Tell me that you would rather die than live forever with the love of your life, and I will tell you that you don't deserve to love anyone if you can't love them forever.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Your idea is no better than the [i]Christian[/i] idea of Hell, because the [i]Adahn[/i] idea of Hell is just as bad. The Christian Hell is a [i]physical[/i] torture; your Hell is a [i]psychological[/i] torture.

C'mon, man, just admit it. You haven't thought this out at all, yet you still expect everyone to follow you because you think you arrived at the answer.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It is bliss! You get to live forever with those you love, right here! I expect nobody to follow me. I only intend to show you all what I believe, how it is better than what is believed today, and that I cannot be proven wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
EDIT: Also, Ben and Boba Fett have posted here with some good points, and you have yet to reply to them. Please do so. I'd be interested in what you would try to use in a rebuttal.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Done and done.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Ben]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]First, to both Ben and Boba Fett, I am ignoring nothing. I am merely interpreting everything differently.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

[QUOTE]her·e·tic (hr-tk)
n.
A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]her·e·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hr-s)
n. pl. her·e·sies

An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.[/QUOTE]

There is the Church's teaching, and there is yours, it seems. The two are [B]not the same[/B]. Stop trying to pass your ideas off as Christian. You've little basis.

[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Christ's love saves us from [i]death[/i]. I remember Adam, Adam brought death to man. If Christ has the power to bring men back from hell, then when he died, he destroyed hell, [i]just like I said before.[/i] He has the keys to hell and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[i]Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.[/i][/QUOTE]

Jesus destroyed [B]death[/B] with his Resurrection, he did not destroy [B]Hell.[/B] At least, that's what the [I]Church[/I] teaches. Your stand once again seems to be different. [SIZE=1][strike]Heretic[/strike][/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You people don't want to live forever? Then by all means, deny what Jesus did and keep being reborn. It's your choice.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]

So....we don't want to live forever, so we deny Christ, and we are then continually reborn....

I'm not seeing much of a distinction, besides the being reborn. Being reborn implies that you die, as opposed to your supposed immortality.

Also, a question. If we accept Christ and become immortal, then what's with the whole heart-stopping-and-brain-shutting down-thing that we call death?

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yes, I've considered everything. This isn't one person being immortal and seeing everyone die. Everyone can be immortal, including those you love. Tell me that you would rather die than live forever with the love of your life, and I will tell you that you don't deserve to love anyone if you can't love them forever.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

You've considered everything, eh? Well then, what if the love of your life doesn't accept Christ, while you do? Yay eternal loneliness!

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It is bliss! You get to live forever with those you love, right here![/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

Again, what if they don't accept Christ? Stuck with the eternal loneliness, in an imperfect world.

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I expect nobody to follow me.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

Then why bother with this entire [B]11 page[/B] thread?

[Kanojo]

To believe that death is a good thing
is due to a false image of God
It comes from believing that Christ did nothing
to remove hell and death or finish satan off
which is Antichrist
Antichrist system has kept blood sacrifice alive
Without the finished work of Christ
mans damaged emotions rule his judgments
He passes these judgments down like filthy rags
Emotions cry out for blood but emotions are liars
and logic becomes the fool
Man has turned his emotions into God
believing falsely that God feels as he does
But God is not a man that He should lie
His death was the end of all sacrifice
Sacrifice was only required before
to prove to man that he needed a savior
To prove to man that religion did not work
If religion and sacrifice had worked
we would not have needed a savior
Kanojo believes that all sin now originates from sacrifice
Even sickness and death
It is done subconsciously by the mind under the law
Man was not created to be a judge
Mans damaged emotions do not know the difference
between good sacrifice and bad sacrifice
Sacrifice always ends in death

[Afire]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][COLOR=Red]Quote from Ben here:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
her·e·tic (hr-tk)
n.
A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

her·e·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hr-s)
n. pl. her·e·sies

An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][COLOR=Red]Wow Ben...If you're going to call everyone a heretic that publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church...that's just funny. So basically, you're calling every non-Roman Catholic christian a heretic. LoL!

While the so called religious Christian world goes around praying the Lord's Prayer over and over again, I sit and laugh. This is the prayer that Christ asked people to pray before His death. In His death, he fufilled this prayer. To keep praying it is anti-christ. It denies what Jesus said when He died..."It is finished." Man is still trying to do what only God could do. Forgive sin. Christ even died the same way we forgave those who sin against us....through death. Since man has never accepted this, as well as, "On Earth as it is in Heaven" he will have to die. If he can't enter into the finished forgiveness of Christ...he'll never forgive anyone truly, especially himself. He will long to die. It will be his only way of escaping the horrors of his own judgments. To eat from that tree and live forever would be Hell. That is why God left death in place. Because He is merciful still. But those that recieve the truth will never die.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE=Afire][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3][COLOR=Red]Quote from Ben here:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
her·e·tic (hr-tk)
n.
A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.

her·e·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hr-s)
n. pl. her·e·sies

An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine

Wow Ben...If you're going to call everyone a heritic that publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church...that's just funny. So basically, you're calling every non-Roman Catholic christian a heretic. LoL! [/QUOTE]

[color=green]That's not at all what the definition of heretic means. A heretic, as stated above, is one who holds controversial opinions. The definition says [i]especially[/i], [b]not limited to[/b] one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. This word has special meaning and value when placed in the context of disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church, but its use isn't at all limited to that context.

From a certain point of view, you could say all Protestants are heretics. However, this is clearly not what Ben is getting at. It?s obvious he?s using ?heretic? to describe Adahn?s twisted interpretation of Christianity.[/color]

[quote name='Afire']LoL![/quote]

[Adahn]

[quote name='Ben]There is the Church's teaching, and there is yours, it seems. The two are [b]not the same[/b']. Stop trying to pass your ideas off as Christian. You've little basis.[/quote]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Chris·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I suppose I am a heretic. I'm also a Christian.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Ben]
Jesus destroyed [b]death[/b] with his Resurrection, he did not destroy [b]Hell.[/b] At least, that's what the [i]Church[/i] teaches. Your stand once again seems to be different. [size=1][strike]Heretic[/strike][/size][size=2][/QUOTE][/size]
[size=2][/size]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Good job. My stand is different than the Church's. I'm really glad you pointed that out.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]So, what you're saying is that Jesus destroyed death and not hell. Ok then, you've got two choices.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Jesus destroyed hell and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Jesus destroyed death, but he'll re-destroy it at the end of the world.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Ben]
So....we don't want to live forever, so we deny Christ, and we are then continually reborn....

I'm not seeing much of a distinction, besides the being reborn. Being reborn implies that you die, as opposed to your supposed immortality.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yeah, immortality is eternal life. Being reborn is an immortal soul living many mortal lives. There's a difference.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Ben]
Also, a question. If we accept Christ and become immortal, then what's with the whole heart-stopping-and-brain-shutting down-thing that we call death?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It's a sort of if-Adam-hadn't-sinned-he-wouldn't-have-died kinda thing. Jesus undid what Adam did and presto, here we are with the opportunity to accept eternal life.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Ben]
You've considered everything, eh? Well then, what if the love of your life doesn't accept Christ, while you do? Yay eternal loneliness!

Again, what if they don't accept Christ? Stuck with the eternal loneliness, in an imperfect world.[/QUOTE]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yay for not knowing much about the bible. If you're married and you accept eternal life, your wife gets it too, and vise-versa. I think I have considered everything, actually.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Ben]
Then why bother with this entire [b]11 page[/b] thread?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Perhaps someone will realize that what I'm saying isn't inherently wrong. Maybe someone will think about what I'm saying. I sure don't [i]expect [/i]it, but it can't hurt to try.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[quote=adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]So, what you're saying is that Jesus destroyed death and not hell. Ok then, you've got two choices.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Jesus destroyed hell and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Jesus destroyed death, but he'll re-destroy it at the end of the world.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/quote]
[quote=The Bible]
Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelations 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/quote]

[color=green]Seems to me as if the dead were judged, and those unworthy were cast into a lake of fire. Hence a second death.

In addition, the whole casting-into-a-lake-of-fire thing sounds pretty close to hell to me?

I?m going to say this [I]again[/I]. You cannot twist and selectively choose the words of the bible that you believe. You take it all, or you take none. There is no middle ground.[/color]

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Revelation already happened. I'm not ignoring anything. Also, if you're calling the lake of fire hell, than what's the hell that's cast into the lake of fire?[/color][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Revelation already happened. I'm not ignoring anything. [/color][/font'][/b][/quote]

[color=green]Really? Guess I must have missed it.[/color]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Also, if you're calling the lake of fire hell, than what's the hell that's cast into the lake of fire?[/color][/font'][/b][/quote]

[color=green]It's the end of the world. God has taken all of the living and the dead to be judged. Those found unworthy are smote. Those found worthy are lifted to heaven.

Hell and death, now no longer needed, are destroyed.

At least that's how I interpret Revelations...[/color]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Really? Guess I must have missed it.[/color]



[color=green]It's the end of the world. God has taken all of the living and the dead to be judged. Those found unworthy are smote. Those found worthy are lifted to heaven.

Hell and death, now no longer needed, are destroyed.

At least that's how I interpret Revelations...[/color][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Yeah, the end of the world happened 2,000 years ago, or sometime close to then. We're the ones who were found worthy, and now all we have to do is accept eternal life. Jesus already destroyed death, but man can still condemn himself by denying what Jesus did.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Yeah, the end of the world happened 2,000 years ago, or sometime close to then.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

[color=green]And you know this how?[/color]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen] Jesus already destroyed death, but man can still condemn himself by denying what Jesus did.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

[color=green]This is leads back to your belief in reincarnation. Which just happens not to be spelled out in the bible.

I think a more reasonable interpretation of Jesus destroying death would be that he died for our sins, allowing those who accepted him as their savior to rise to heaven come Armageddon. Those who deny him will be sent to hell pending the end of the world, where they will face judgment before god for their wickedness.

There are far more biblical references supporting what I have just said that you can misconstrue to point in the general direction of your ideas.


One final thing. If what you're saying is true, and we're all wrong, how is it that you found it? Found something that 2000 years of study by all manner of religious people and lifelong theologians failed to realize? Sounds a little presumptuous to me.[/color]

[Ben]

[QUOTE=Adahn][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Chris·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I suppose I am a heretic. I'm also a Christian.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[/size][/QUOTE]

I'll give you that one, if you want to go by a [I]secular[/I] definition.

[QUOTE=Adahn][size=2][/size]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Good job. My stand is different than the Church's. I'm really glad you pointed that out.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]

It didn't really take all that much. =/

[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]So, what you're saying is that Jesus destroyed death and not hell. Ok then, you've got two choices.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Jesus destroyed hell and death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Jesus destroyed death, but he'll re-destroy it at the end of the world.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]

Revelations isn't meant to be taken literally, you understand. Not everything is exactly as it sounds.

Sin, for example, is often considered to as a "death." Jesus died for our sins. He made it so that our sins can be forgiven; he made it so that our souls could be called into Heaven. The "death" that Jesus destroyed was our inherent sin; Original Sin.

In Revelation, might not the death being referred to be physical death?

Consider today's Gospel reading, if you would: Lk 20:27-38 or 20:27, 34-38

" Jesus said to them,
"The children of this age marry and remarry;
but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age
and to the resurrection of the dead
neither marry nor are given in marriage.
They can no longer die,
for they are like angels;" "

When we die, we become "like angels." We "can no longer die." At the end of the world, that is what we become. Physical death may very well be the death that Revelations is referring to; if no one is physically alive, then physical death would indeed be gone.

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yeah, immortality is eternal life. Being reborn is an immortal soul living many mortal lives. There's a difference.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

I'm just trying to figrue out what you meant when you said that by denying Christ we would not live eternally. In both cases, there is an immortal soul, right? In the first case, you still physically die, and then your soul lives forever because you accept Jesus. In the second, you deny Jesus, and so physically die multiple times, but your soul lives forever, again.

How can you say that by denying Jesus we are not living eternally?


[quote name='Adahn] [b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It's a sort of if-Adam-hadn't-sinned-he-wouldn't-have-died kinda thing. Jesus undid what Adam did and presto, here we are with the opportunity to accept eternal life.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]

I think I misinterpreted you somewhere. I thought physical death where I should have thought spiritual death, or something.

[QUOTE=Adahn][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Yay for not knowing much about the bible. If you're married and you accept eternal life, your wife gets it too, and vise-versa. I think I have considered everything, actually.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]

So you're saying Christ would force an unwilling soul to have eternal life? =/ Someone who utterly denies him, does not want to have anything to do with him, who would have to be dragged by the hair with nails scraping on the floor; he'd force them to live forever with him?

Help, somebody. Please. :p

EDIT: *points to Azure's post*

What he said.

[AzureWolf]

[QUOTE]Perhaps someone will realize that what I'm saying isn't inherently wrong. Maybe someone will think about what I'm saying. I sure don't expect it, but it can't hurt to try.[/QUOTE][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]Bloody hell. You still aren't getting the point of what everyone is trying to tell you, are you? Ok, I'm going to try to put it as simply as possible.

You wrote your thread as "Questioning Chrisitianity," so I don't think you are as oblivious as you act. Why did you not question atheists or the like? I bet because of how impossible it is to beat them in a debate such as this one. I'm not saying they are right, but because of how one carries out a debate with an atheist (starting free of frames and assumptions), it's impossible to prove your side, is it not? I mean, if your beliefs have any type of biblical basis, then that's the case, believe it or not.

Now, because you are "Questioning [B]Christianity[/B]," that means for all intensive purposes, we assume the Bible is a perfect, factual document. We also assume that other dimensional objects exist. We also assume... you get the idea.

Now, you have shown how you arrived at your conclusions. Certainly, anyone can see where you got your ideas from, BUT, after this point, your argument starts to fall apart.

Christianity has shown how it arrived at its conclusions, and people can see where they are coming from, but that's really it. The rest of the concept is built on faith. You have to make that one big leap of faith in order to follow the religion.

There's nothing wrong with that, btw: that is the case of all religions - that one big hash of faith is important, and where some tend to stagger and become unsure. Faith and religion, as you may have noticed, are used somewhat interchangeably.

According to you, we don't need to make a leap of faith with your interpretation. You may not have stated that explicitly, but it was implied by your creation of this thread. So, why/how is it that we don't need to make a leap of faith with your interpretation - at least a type that is different from all other religions?

Now, if you are saying/believing there is a leap of faith, that makes this thread boil down to spam and you are just announcing your beliefs, since no discussion can be derived from a leap of faith. What's worse, your ideas are based on a translation of the Bible, so taking things as literally as possible is a big no-no. Christianity had the advantage of losing nothing in translation, since it was built from the original version, so you already start in the red.

Haha, after 11 pages (it's only the second for me since I have 100 posts/pp), I hope you finally see what the problem is.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Siren, a little question.

How can re-incarnation be a psychological hell? That would involve you being aware that you've been re-incarnated.

Adahn here believes that immortality is available to us [though it beats me why you'd want it], and that he cannot be wrong.

Christians here believe that Adahn is a heretic and undoubtedly wrong. Because it goes against tradition.

Both arguments are based on faith. Over one book which can be misinterpreted fifty different ways from Sunday, as I illustrated in a prior post.

Someone explain to me, where is this argument going to lead? Both cases have merit, but I cannot forsee a solution being reached.[/size]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Siren, a little question.

How can re-incarnation be a psychological hell? That would involve you being aware that you've been re-incarnated.[/size][/QUOTE]Adahn's never given any indication that people's memories would be a blank slate. In fact, he's left that out entirely from what I've seen here.

Also, look at it this way. Adahn wants people to know they're getting a second chance at things, because they didn't do so well in the first place. If they have no memory at all of what they did in their "past life," how in the hell are they going to be able to rectify things? They'd have to know about their previous lives, meaning, they're going to have to be aware that they're being re-incarnated.

The psychological hell is what I like to call the "Groundhog Day Reaction," the knowledge that you're doing things over and over again, and there's no end in sight. Seriously, who enjoys vicious circles? The whole re-incarnation thing is an exercise in redundancy, and we all hate redundancy. In fact, we abhor it (just look at this thread, eh?).

Regarding this tripe about Revelation happening already...let's examine the actual scripture.

[quote name='The Bible]1 The [b]Revelation[/b] of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants [b]things which must shortly come to pass[/b]; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of [b]this prophecy[/b'], and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/quote]
I've bolded a few key words and phrases. To say that Revelation has happened already is simply ignoring a large portion of the Book of Revelation.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Abhor it? Whats so bad about re-incarnation? Surely loafing about in Heaven for the rest of eternity is redundancy, not living again and again.

And, possessing no memories of previous lives is one of the base beliefs [or, rather, necessities] of re-incarnation. Otherwise it'd leave that whole uncomfortable hole where people don't actually remember previous lives ~_^ lol.[/size]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']Abhor it? Whats so bad about re-incarnation? Surely loafing about in Heaven for the rest of eternity is redundancy, not living again and again.[/quote]
I know I absolutely hate redundancy, don't you? lol

[quote]And, possessing no memories of previous lives is one of the base beliefs [or, rather, necessities] of re-incarnation. Otherwise it'd leave that whole uncomfortable hole where people don't actually remember previous lives ~_^ lol.[/QUOTE]
Exactly why using re-incarnation to give someone a second chance to fix a problem in their previous life is a bad idea, because it's a logical contradiction. They'll need to know what they did wrong in their previous life, so they can fix it in their second life, but one of the "rules" of re-incarnation states that there cannot be any supraconscious memories, because, like you've just said, it'll cause major psychological errors.

Adahn's re-incarnation idea is a bad idea, because it's too flawed. There's no way in hell it can ever work, because you can't have re-incarnation without a memory wipe, as it were, and you can't have someone right a wrong without knowing about it.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]There is alot to deal with here, but I'll do what I can.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Boba Fett, just because an idea is old doesn't mean it's right.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Ben, eternal life means no death. Reincarnation entails death. The soul always has been immortal. We all know this. If it weren't immortal, it wouldn't have been able to burn in hell. Therefore, salvation can only be for the flesh, because the soul cannot die.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]2Cr 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is just an interesting quote. If the life of Jesus is made manifest in our mortal flesh, how can it die?[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Azurewolf, the leap of faith is believing that Jesus took death, and that you will never die. I'm not taking things as literally as possible. When Jesus says,[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][i]Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.[/i][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I think, hmm, maybe this verily verily thing means he's telling the truth. When I say something preceded by "truthfully, truthfully", I expect people to take what I'm saying for what it means. This looks alot like immortality to me, how would you interpret it?[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I must apologize to Siren. I should have said that reincarnation means you come back as someone different with no knowledge of your past life. That's why it's so [i]bad. [/i]It's a punishment because the life you lived was a wasted one. You don't burn in hell, which is cool, but all your thoughts and memories go away. If anything, it's worse, except for the fact that you get another chance and you don't burn forever.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I never wanted to argue with atheists/agnostics, but as I said multiple times, [i]I'll take what I can get.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]As for a resolution, the best I can hope for is for someone, anyone, to say that there's even the slimmest chance that what I'm saying isn't completely asinine, and could possibly stand by itself as a viable interpretation of the Bible. Any more than that and I'll pee my pants out of pure joy and excitement.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b][/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn]I must apologize to Siren. [b]I should have said that reincarnation means you come back as someone different with no knowledge of your past life[/b']. That's why it's so bad. It's a punishment because the life you lived was a wasted one. You don't burn in hell, which is cool, but all your thoughts and memories go away. If anything, it's worse, except for the fact that you get another chance and you don't burn forever.[/quote]
I've again bolded a key sentence here. If you're re-incarnating someone as someone completely different, with no knowledge at all of their past life, how do you expect them to right their wrong in their previous life? Are you going to tell them what they need to do? [i]C'mon[/i].

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Your idea has merit Adahn; Go pee yourself.

What is practical about going to Heaven? How is this not redundant?

You don't need to be aware of re-incarnation to have a chance of getting your life 'right' [according to Adahn].

Just imagine that there is a room full of monkeys [lol]. These monkeys will die and be re-born until they do whatever it is to remove them from the cycle.

It's bound to happen eventually, right?[/size]

[Ben]

Addressing Baron's and Alex's points on the redundancy of Heaven,

Christians believe that in Heaven we will be fully in communion with God, and will have no other wants or needs. It won't seem redundant, as we're all totally enthralled by God's perfection.

It's not something I [I]personally[/I] like to think about as I'm here on earth, but then, I've never experienced the feeling of being fully immersed in God's love. I'm sure it has to be better than anything I've experienced, but it is still rather difficult for me to believe. I kind of like life on earth. :p