Questioning Christianity

[Dagger]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']What do you do in Heaven? Is there any point to existing in Heaven, is what I'm asking. Because you don't do anything. Heaven is sterile and unchanging.[/size][/quote]

You just said asked what people do in Heaven, a question which none of us can confidently answer--and then, immediately afterward, provided your own response! How can you make such an assertion? Unless God personally informed you that Heaven is "sterile and unchanging," your assumptions have absolutely no basis. I certainly can't think of any theological references that suggest Heaven is such a boring place. I admire Ben for trying, but this debate is heading nowhere--certainly, I [I]can[/I] say Heaven is more interesting or rewarding than reincarnation, and you can just as easily argue the opposite. However, there's no truly objective evidence on either side.

~Dagger~

[...Coolness...]

Before I begin, I would like to say, I was raised(from the age of 2) a Christian, but I refer to myself and my family as "True Christians" because we are not misled by the false things in this present system of things.
Whenever I have a question, or I doubt things, I am told to research it by myself, and believe what I have found.
I am only 13, and yet I seem to have more accurate knowledge regarding the bible than any here.


I have read many of the posts, and would like to give my input, as well as back my information with evidence.
First I would like to inform you all:::: You should rethink everything you have previously said.

Adahn- since you started this whole thing, I will address you.
On some points you are right, such as

NO, we were not created to die. Obviously, as you brought out, when Adam and Eve sinned, they ruined their opportunity to live forever. Now, why do we die? Because we are their descendants, their children. Like a cake baked from a pot with a dent, we live with a "dent", sin. We are all human, and cannot escape that.

BUT, you were wrong in how you said we could accept the gift that Jesus gave, and accept that death was done away with. HOW could death be done away with if we still DIE? This truth is right in front of your face. The bible says in Romans 6:23- For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our lord." MEANING:: WE do die, but there IS a way that we can continue living, as we were created to. But that way is not reincarnation. I do not understand how you can read the bible and come up with that solution, as reincarnation is found NOWHERE in the bible.

Many of you have mentioned about the reason Jesus came to earth, and died for us. Jesus did not get rid of death then, but opened up the way for us to receive everlasting life. He is the intercessor. Adam was perfect, but gave in to sin, thus making us imperfect. One thing, I am not sure if any of you have noticed, but the bible says that men have gone from "bad to worse"( I cannot remember what scripture). This is what has happened in the world- people are developing their sins, becoming practicers of them. You can see this by Homosexuality and Immorality being all over the TV shows and movies, while even 10 years ago it was not as bad as it is now. So, there will be a time when we will have to WORK to achieve perfection once again. But, to get to that point, you will be judged by Jesus.

Another thing. HELL? Some say it does not exist. Some say that it is eternal fire, which punishes people for their sins in life. CORRECTION::: There is a hell. But, the bible does not say that it burns you for your sins. The bible says in Ecclesiastes 9:5,10- The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all....All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power. For there is no work of devising or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (Hebrew translation for hell) the place to which you are going." So, that right there tells you, you will not be burning in hell. Yet, did you know EVERYONE goes to hell? Yes, in fact they do, for hell,Sheol, is actually the common grave of mankind. Bet you didn't know that. How do I know, you ask? I read up on the translation of my bible(new world translation). So, we all go to the grave, or die.

Now, someone once said in this post that we are keeping the power of Satan alive...and that the power of Satan is now inside us? no...no...no... What do you mean, the power of Satan? Satan is actually a former nameless angel, that went against god's(lied to Eve and persuaded her to eat the fruit-the serpent) authority, and said that he was not fit for ruling us. Thus the scripture in Genesis 3:4,5- You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it Your eyes are bound to be opened....." He was accusing god of lying! He was implying that humans could rule themselves, that HE could rule himself.(he was an angel before that, making him subject to God) But, we have evidence that God did not lie, for "in that day" they did die! You must remember, if you did not know this, that to god, one day is as a thousand years to us. So, man being created in the sixth day of creation, they died before that day was over.(no one knows when that day ended. But we are in the seventh day of rest) Therefore, Jesus was sent to earth to balance the scales. God is just, and so Jesus had to be perfect, which he was, and he had to die. Get it now? God also sacrificed something when Jesus died. His son. Jesus was Michael, the archangel, previously in heaven. God had to give up his only-begotten son, firstborn of all creation, when he went to earth and died. It was no coincidence that Jesus ended up dying. He knew he was going to die.

Another point- The cross. Some believe Christ died on a cross. HE DIDN'T! It was a stake. REASEARCH IT IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE ME. What really annoys me is that people who believe Christ died on a cross, they wear necklaces with crosses on them or decorate their house with crosses. That's sick. That would be like, if you had a friend who was run over by a car, then you made a miniature of the same car, and put it around your neck.

I'm not done yet---We are not all automatically saved. We have to accept the rules god put into the bible, and live our life by them. The whole world is full of hypocrites, who say the lord's prayer over and over, thinking it keeps them close to god. Would you like someone who said the same thing to you in your entire friendship? Neither does God.

Also---Reincarnation is not the resurrection hope mentioned in the bible. Let me explain:::: The bible tells of Armageddon-this many people have twisted, as the bible also says they will (false prophets). Armageddon is not the destruction of the world, it is the destruction of the wicked.(This is actually coming soon, so watch your step, you may be one destroyed) The wicked ones are the goats among God's true people, his sheep. He is our shepherd. Jesus will judge us, separate the goats from the sheep(God having put him in charge of this), and the "goats" will be destroyed. Now, the resurrection will begin then. Those who will be resurrected are the righteous(the ones who, to the best of their ability, followed God's laws and lived their life accordingly) and the unrighteous( those who didn't have a chance to hear the truth about God). Those who survive straight through the Great tribulation(Armageddon), will be still be alive, and they all will, through the thousand year reign of Christ, attain to perfection. During this time, the devil will be locked away from the people(he is presently roaming about in the earth), and God will not allow him to influence us at all. After the thousand year reign of Jesus, Jesus will hand the kingdom back over to god, and Satan the devil will be allowed back among the people for our final test. Being perfect, we can either behave like Adam and Eve did, or like our great exemplar, Jesus. if we give in to Satan, we will be destroyed, if we do not, we will continue living forever. Satan will be destroyed after this test. Where do I get this from? The book of revelation. The whole book is symbolic, and must be interpreted correctly.

Trinity-- God is not Jesus. Jesus is not God. The bible makes no reference to this at all. Or else, who was Jesus praying to in Matt 26:39, where he is asking for the cup to be passed away from him? Himself? I think not! The trinity is a belief that started back in ancient days with ancient PAGAN religions. According to the Encyclopedia Americana, we read" Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian(believing that God is one person). The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." I did my homework, maybe you should redo yours.

Adahn- There is a difference between listening and hearing. I know you hear what all these people who reply to you say, but are you listening?

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
NO, we were not created to die. Obviously, as you brought out, when Adam and Eve sinned, they ruined their opportunity to live forever. Now, why do we die? Because we are their descendants, their children. Like a cake baked from a pot with a dent, we live with a "dent", sin. We are all human, and cannot escape that.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We were born of Adam first, but we are reborn into Jesus, are we not? The second birth replaces the first. Adam was human, and he was the one who dented us. If we are baked anew in a pot with no dent, why must we insist that the dent is still there?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
BUT, you were wrong in how you said we could accept the gift that Jesus gave, and accept that death was done away with. HOW could death be done away with if we still DIE? This truth is right in front of your face. The bible says in Romans 6:23- For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our lord." MEANING:: WE do die, but there IS a way that we can continue living, as we were created to. But that way is not reincarnation. I do not understand how you can read the bible and come up with that solution, as reincarnation is found NOWHERE in the bible.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Reincarnation is not the way to live forever, it is the way to die forever. It is not the reward, it is the punishment. As for how I came to the conclusion, I will tell you soon.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
Many of you have mentioned about the reason Jesus came to earth, and died for us. Jesus did not get rid of death then, but opened up the way for us to receive everlasting life. He is the intercessor. Adam was perfect, but gave in to sin, thus making us imperfect. One thing, I am not sure if any of you have noticed, but the bible says that men have gone from "bad to worse"( I cannot remember what scripture). This is what has happened in the world- people are developing their sins, becoming practicers of them. You can see this by Homosexuality and Immorality being all over the TV shows and movies, while even 10 years ago it was not as bad as it is now. So, there will be a time when we will have to WORK to achieve perfection once again. But, to get to that point, you will be judged by Jesus.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It's odd to hear you say Jesus did not get rid of death, but opened up the way for us to receive everlasting life. If you mean he made it so we could believe in him and not die, we are in agreement. I do not think that is what you are saying, though.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
Another thing. HELL? Some say it does not exist. Some say that it is eternal fire, which punishes people for their sins in life. CORRECTION::: There is a hell. But, the bible does not say that it burns you for your sins. The bible says in Ecclesiastes 9:5,10- The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all....All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power. For there is no work of devising or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (Hebrew translation for hell) the place to which you are going." So, that right there tells you, you will not be burning in hell. Yet, did you know EVERYONE goes to hell? Yes, in fact they do, for hell,Sheol, is actually the common grave of mankind. Bet you didn't know that. How do I know, you ask? I read up on the translation of my bible(new world translation). So, we all go to the grave, or die.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here's what made Sheol seem like the womb to me. Read what it says about Sheol, and tell me how it is different from one who is in his/her mother's womb. If you read what you said, the womb resembles VERY much what you believe (we all go there).[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
I'm not done yet---We are not all automatically saved. We have to accept the rules god put into the bible, and live our life by them. The whole world is full of hypocrites, who say the lord's prayer over and over, thinking it keeps them close to god. Would you like someone who said the same thing to you in your entire friendship? Neither does God.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Even if I were wrong in my interpretations, do I deviate in any way from the rules that were laid down? I would not believe anything if I did not have a valid reason for it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
Also---Reincarnation is not the resurrection hope mentioned in the bible. Let me explain:::: The bible tells of Armageddon-this many people have twisted, as the bible also says they will (false prophets). Armageddon is not the destruction of the world, it is the destruction of the wicked.(This is actually coming soon, so watch your step, you may be one destroyed) The wicked ones are the goats among God's true people, his sheep. He is our shepherd. Jesus will judge us, separate the goats from the sheep(God having put him in charge of this), and the "goats" will be destroyed. Now, the resurrection will begin then. Those who will be resurrected are the righteous(the ones who, to the best of their ability, followed God's laws and lived their life accordingly) and the unrighteous( those who didn't have a chance to hear the truth about God). Those who survive straight through the Great tribulation(Armageddon), will be still be alive, and they all will, through the thousand year reign of Christ, attain to perfection. During this time, the devil will be locked away from the people(he is presently roaming about in the earth), and God will not allow him to influence us at all. After the thousand year reign of Jesus, Jesus will hand the kingdom back over to god, and Satan the devil will be allowed back among the people for our final test. Being perfect, we can either behave like Adam and Eve did, or like our great exemplar, Jesus. if we give in to Satan, we will be destroyed, if we do not, we will continue living forever. Satan will be destroyed after this test. Where do I get this from? The book of revelation. The whole book is symbolic, and must be interpreted correctly.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]For the first part, I agree with you. Reincarnation isn't the resurrection. Reincarnation is being sent to Sheol (the womb) over and over. As for your ideas on Revelation, I can't address them, as I have too little knowledge.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
Adahn- There is a difference between listening and hearing. I know you hear what all these people who reply to you say, but are you listening?[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Most of what I hear is that the Bible is just mythology. Would you listen to that? I did my best to address the points you made, and left alone those I don't have the knowledge to respond to.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[...Coolness...]

Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We were born of Adam first, but we are reborn into Jesus, are we not? The second birth replaces the first. Adam was human, and he was the one who dented us. If we are baked anew in a pot with no dent, why must we insist that the dent is still there?[/color][/size][/font][/b]
The problem with that is...we are not baked in a new pot. It is the same pot, same dent.(adam, sin)

Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Reincarnation is not the way to live forever, it is the way to die forever. It is not the reward, it is the punishment. As for how I came to the conclusion, I will tell you soon.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
Why would we die forever? God is not cruel and unusual. He loves us, in fact the bible says that he is love. Also, you believe in reincarnation. That means you also believe in Karma, no? And that the reason people who are reincarnated continue die is because they are doing something wrong?

Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It's odd to hear you say Jesus did not get rid of death, but opened up the way for us to receive everlasting life. If you mean he made it so we could believe in him and not die, we are in agreement. I do not think that is what you are saying, though.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
It involves a lot more than just believing in him.

Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here's what made Sheol seem like the womb to me. Read what it says about Sheol, and tell me how it is different from one who is in his/her mother's womb. If you read what you said, the womb resembles VERY much what you believe (we all go there).[/color][/size][/font][/b]
The common GRAVE of mankind. How can that sound like the WOMB? Now you just sound ridiculous.

Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Even if I were wrong in my interpretations, do I deviate in any way from the rules that were laid down? I would not believe anything if I did not have a valid reason for it.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
But your valid "reasons" sound more like excuses. You provide your own information, and go by that, rather than believing the bible.(i.e. The bible does not speak of reincarnation, yet you believe it.) Also, do you curse? most everyone does. But, when you do, you disobey God's law on obscene speech and refraining from using it.

Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]For the first part, I agree with you. Reincarnation isn't the resurrection. Reincarnation is being sent to Sheol (the womb) over and over. As for your ideas on Revelation, I can't address them, as I have too little knowledge.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
If you say you have too little knowledge, then inform yourself! That is your problem. You seem to busy to go against something that you do not even inform yourself of all the things involved. I would hope you would do that soon.

I also hope that you have met your match in your use of persuasive speech and quoting the bible. I will be back. I will not allow you to misrepresent the bible in the way you have formerly. Heed my warnings.

[Afire]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]Before I begin, I would like to say, I was raised(from the age of 2) a Christian, but I refer to myself and my family as "True Christians" because we are not misled by the false things in this present system of things.
[/QUOTE]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]Come right out with it Coolness. You were raised a Jehovah Witness. I've heard everything you've said before. You have found no new truth apart from what was taught you since you were the age of 2. Your search for truth consists of searching for a reason to believe in what you already believe is true.

All the sin in the world today is only a symptom of the greatest sin of all. It is the symptom of having a god of death. Christ came to give us joy unspeakable and abundant life forever on this earth. To return us to the place of rest inside of all of us. There is no death in Christ. There is no difference between God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. They are all Love. Love has joy! There can be no joy in having a god with the face of death. Only in looking forward to death.

You say you have found truth.

I have found JOY. I have found something better. Nothing can compete with it. The god of death was swallowed by my God of Life. I will have joy forevermore.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[quote name='...Coolness...']The problem with that is...we are not baked in a new pot. It is the same pot, same dent.(adam, sin)[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]So, we are not reborn in Christ? Congratulations, you just denied Jesus and proved you are not a Christian in any way.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
Why would we die forever? God is not cruel and unusual. He loves us, in fact the bible says that he is love. Also, you believe in reincarnation. That means you also believe in Karma, no? And that the reason people who are reincarnated continue die is because they are doing something wrong?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I don't believe in Karma. Reincarnation is a biblical thing, just not conventionally. Those who are reincarnated continue to die because they don't want to live forever, plain and simple.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
It involves a lot more than just believing in him.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It involves faith in life, not death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
The common GRAVE of mankind. How can that sound like the WOMB? Now you just sound ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Let's see.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
Ecclesiastes 9:5,10- The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are [b]conscious of nothing at all[/b]....All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power. For there is [b]no work of devising or knowledge or wisdom[/b] in Sheol

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You also said everybody has to go there. Here's a newsflash, you've already been there. Am I so ridiculous, or are you just blind?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
But your valid "reasons" sound more like excuses. You provide your own information, and go by that, rather than believing the bible.(i.e. The bible does not speak of reincarnation, yet you believe it.) Also, do you curse? most everyone does. But, when you do, you disobey God's law on obscene speech and refraining from using it.
.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The Bible doesn't say alot of things that I believe. It's called interpretation. You do it too.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
If you say you have too little knowledge, then inform yourself! That is your problem. You seem to busy to go against something that you do not even inform yourself of all the things involved. I would hope you would do that soon.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I know what I know. Revelation is not my forte, and you can show me how it hasn't happened just as well as I can show you how it has. We'll essentially get nowhere in that area.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
I also hope that you have met your match in your use of persuasive speech and quoting the bible. I will be back. I will not allow you to misrepresent the bible in the way you have formerly. Heed my warnings.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I expect you back, but I'll expect you to have your eyes open.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

I'd just like to point out that there has already been 13 pages in this thread, and numerous people have pointed out numerous times that Adahn has absolutely no idea what in the hell what he's talking about, and I've already pointed out that his "interpretation" about Revelation is totally bunk. I'm also wondering why Adahn continues to reply, even after he said he was done with this thread...

Not to play Mod here, but could someone [i]please[/i] close this thread now? It's fairly obvious that this new debate isn't going to bring anything new or worthwhile to the discussion, and there was a wrap-up earlier in the thread anyway.

[Afire]

[QUOTE=Siren]I'd just like to point out that there has already been 13 pages in this thread, and numerous people have pointed out numerous times that Adahn has absolutely no idea what in the hell what he's talking about, and I've already pointed out that his "interpretation" about Revelation is totally bunk. I'm also wondering why Adahn continues to reply, even after he said he was done with this thread...

Not to play Mod here, but could someone [i]please[/i] close this thread now? It's fairly obvious that this new debate isn't going to bring anything new or worthwhile to the discussion, and there was a wrap-up earlier in the thread anyway.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]Siren, if a thread is still being replied to in a decent manner, why should it be closed? Obviously people are still veiwing it. You can't seem to leave it alone either. You could you know...if you're really that tired of it.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Siren]I'd just like to point out that there has already been 13 pages in this thread, and numerous people have pointed out numerous times that Adahn has absolutely no idea what in the hell what he's talking about, and I've already pointed out that his "interpretation" about Revelation is totally bunk. I'm also wondering why Adahn continues to reply, even after he said he was done with this thread...

Not to play Mod here, but could someone [i]please[/i] close this thread now? It's fairly obvious that this new debate isn't going to bring anything new or worthwhile to the discussion, and there was a wrap-up earlier in the thread anyway.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I've found someone I think I can have a worthwhile discussion with, an actual Christian. I just got tired of arguing back and forth with you. The discussion was going nowhere between us. If it bothers you so much that this thread is still open, focus your attentions elsewhere. As far as I can tell, the discussion is still on topic.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[...Coolness...]

Afire--------
Once again, I am confronted by someone who has no clue of what they speak of. I am not a Jehovah's witness, or else I would not be on this page, debating why you all are such idiots. I once studied with them, yes. But we conflicted in our beliefs and the study was ended. But, they had some good points, which I still believe today.
You rant on about how you have found joy. But it is only false joy, as you have not found truth. Thieves and murderes find joy, too. Yet the joy escapes them as they are handcuffed and locked into jail. This so-called "joy" you speak of will escape you as well, when you are judged, and most likely destroyed. Is that what you want to happen to you? I suppose you do, if you continue to refute the truth in my words. Someday, too late, you will recognize what I said will happen and is happening. 1 Timothy 3:1-5 speaks of people "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to it's power". Therefore, it speaks of you.

What upsets me the most about what you say is the fact that you said we have a god of death. HOW CAN THAT BE TRUE? Why are even living if we have a god of death. I don't think you understand the concept of that. God has always been. One day, he created humans, for pure delight to see us happy. But the humans turned their back on God. God, being just, provided a way for them to regain God's trust. You are turning your back STILL! I wonder how you can sleep thinking the way you do.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']I've found someone I think I can have a worthwhile discussion with, an actual Christian. I just got tired of arguing back and forth with you. The discussion was going nowhere between us. If it bothers you so much that this thread is still open, focus your attentions elsewhere. As far as I can tell, the discussion is still on topic.[/quote]
You [i]do[/i] realize that [i]Ben[/i] is an actual Christian (he said so in the thread itself, for crying out loud), and Boba Fett has a Christian background? Come on, dude, you had actual Christians arguing with you before. Adahn, you already had Christians replying to you, who countered you, called you on your crap interpretations, and you ignored them, lol. Tsk tsk.

[Afire]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]Afire--------
Once again, I am confronted by someone who has no clue of what they speak of. I am not a Jehovah's witness, or else I would not be on this page, debating why you all are such idiots. I once studied with them, yes. But we conflicted in our beliefs and the study was ended. But, they had some good points, which I still believe today.
You rant on about how you have found joy. But it is only false joy, as you have not found truth. Thieves and murderes find joy, too. Yet the joy escapes them as they are handcuffed and locked into jail. This so-called "joy" you speak of will escape you as well, when you are judged, and most likely destroyed. Is that what you want to happen to you? I suppose you do, if you continue to refute the truth in my words. Someday, too late, you will recognize what I said will happen and is happening. 1 Timothy 3:1-5 speaks of people "having a form of godly devotion but proving false to it's power". Therefore, it speaks of you.

What upsets me the most about what you say is the fact that you said we have a god of death. HOW CAN THAT BE TRUE? Why are even living if we have a god of death. I don't think you understand the concept of that. God has always been. One day, he created humans, for pure delight to see us happy. But the humans turned their back on God. God, being just, provided a way for them to regain God's trust. You are turning your back STILL! I wonder how you can sleep thinking the way you do.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]Dear Coolness, I sleep really good.
It's better to be hot than cool. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[...Coolness...]

Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]So, we are not reborn in Christ? Congratulations, you just denied Jesus and proved you are not a Christian in any way.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

No we are not reborn in Christ. At what point do you get that from? No I am not denying christ, and I am still Christian. Jesus got rid of death, yes. Immediately? no.


Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I don't believe in Karma. Reincarnation is a biblical thing, just not conventionally. Those who are reincarnated continue to die because they don't want to live forever, plain and simple.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
You make no sense. Reincarnation is not at all a biblical thing. It is something man created back in ancient times, with pagan religions.


Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]It involves faith in life, not death.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
True, in a sense. It does not only involve faith, it involves acting on that faith. In order to do that, we have to follow the scriptures.


Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Let's see.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
Ecclesiastes 9:5,10- The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are [b]conscious of nothing at all[/b]....All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power. For there is [b]no work of devising or knowledge or wisdom[/b] in Sheol

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You also said everybody has to go there. Here's a newsflash, you've already been there. Am I so ridiculous, or are you just blind?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

I believe that you are the one who is acting blindly in this sense. You seem to be twisting the bible to your own liking. That scripture is saying that the dead are conscious of nothing. Also meaning that they are not conscious. You are alive in the womb. The Hebrew translation for "sheol" is the same for Hell. Hell is the commmon grave of mankind. Then so is sheol.


Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]The Bible doesn't say alot of things that I believe. It's called interpretation. You do it too.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

You are mistaken. I interpret what the bible says, according to the bible. You interpret what you believe is contained in the bible. You are no better than what you say about the christians, and that they are teaching falsely

Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I know what I know. Revelation is not my forte, and you can show me how it hasn't happened just as well as I can show you how it has. We'll essentially get nowhere in that area.[/color][/size]
[/font][/b]

I agree, but that is the most important part of the bible, because it pertains to our day. I suggest you atleast read it and try to understand it.


Adahn[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I expect you back, but I'll expect you to have your eyes open.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]
My eyes have been open, and they remain open. That is how I came to my conclusions.

I hope that you will see the insight in my words

[Afire]

[quote name='...Coolness...']I bet you do, but how on earth could you live thinking you are not loved by the one who created you? It tears people's lives apart if their own parents abandoned them. God is our father.[/quote]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]Dear Coolness, I am loved by my creator and my parents. I don't have a god of death. I have a God of life.

I ask you this: What good Father would let his beloved child die?

My own father would die in my place if he could.

My God did die in my place.

Yours did nothing worth mentioning.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[...Coolness...]

[QUOTE=Afire][FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]Dear Coolness, I am loved by my creator and my parents. I don't have a god of death. I have a God of life.

I ask you this: What good Father would let his beloved child die?

My own father would die in my place if he could.

My God did die in my place.

Yours did nothing worth mentioning.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

I was not speaking of YOUR father.

God did do something worth mentioning-he sacrifced his son for us. That was LIKE sacrificing himself. But he couldn't do the latter, for he cannot adn will not expire. God also created all humans. that was and is worth mentioning. Obviously so, because the bible exists.

[Panda]

[quote name='...Coolness...']I bet you do, but how on earth could you live thinking you are not loved by the one who created you? It tears people's lives apart if their own parents abandoned them. God is our father.[/quote]

Welcome to the boards ...Coolness.... Double posts are not allowed on the OtakuBoards. I will be deleting the above double post after I post this. If you need to add something please edit your post versus starting a new post immediately after a post you just made.

A reminder to everyone, short one line posts are generally considered spam on the boards. Be sure to add some effort into your responses.

Thanks all.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]

No we are not reborn in Christ. At what point do you get that from? No I am not denying christ, and I am still Christian. Jesus got rid of death, yes. Immediately? no.[/QUOTE]
[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn003.html#3"]Jhn 3:3[/url] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be [b]born[/b] [b]again[/b], he cannot see the kingdom of God.


[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn003.html#7"]Jhn 3:7[/url] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be [b]born[/b] [b]again[/b].


[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Pe/1Pe001.html#23"]1Pe 1:23[/url] Being [b]born[/b] [b]again[/b], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen]Care to reconsider?[/color][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
You make no sense. Reincarnation is not at all a biblical thing. It is something man created back in ancient times, with pagan religions.[/QUOTE]
1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Just a couple snippets.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[size=2][QUOTE=...Coolness...][/size]
I believe that you are the one who is acting blindly in this sense. You seem to be twisting the bible to your own liking. That scripture is saying that the dead are conscious of nothing. Also meaning that they are not conscious. You are alive in the womb. The Hebrew translation for "sheol" is the same for Hell. Hell is the commmon grave of mankind. Then so is sheol. [/QUOTE]
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Good ole' King James. It says nothing about consciousness. It says there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom. Let's look at each of these. There is no work in the womb. There is no device in the womb. There is no knowledge in the womb. There is no widom in the womb.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
You are mistaken. I interpret what the bible says, according to the bible. You interpret what you believe is contained in the bible. You are no better than what you say about the christians, and that they are teaching falsely[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Here's the deal. I was a 'sort of' Christian until I read the Bible. I had never really been taught anything, and was told that if I give lip service "I accept Jesus into my heart" I would go to heaven. That was okay for me, for a while. I grew up, and got smarter. I decided to read the Bible. While reading the Bible (probably in Ecclesiastes, actually) I got the feeling about reincarnation. I'd never heard about it before in terms of the Bible. I pored over it, and it just made more and more sense to me. I didn't ask for it. If you had read the Bible, what I'm saying would make some sense to you, too.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[font=Trebuchet MS][b][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
I agree, but that is the most important part of the bible, because it pertains to our day. I suggest you atleast read it and try to understand it.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I did read it. It confused me, but I think that was the idea behind the book in the first place. One thing I know is that it is beyond my time, be it in the past or future.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=...Coolness...]
My eyes have been open, and they remain open. That is how I came to my conclusions.

I hope that you will see the insight in my words[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I hope you can at least begin to understand what I'm saying. I've listened to what you said.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

Got news for ya, bub. "Born again" is not reincarnation. "Born again" is [i]resurrection[/i]. There is a very distinct difference.

[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reincarnation][u]reincarnation[/u][/url]

[url=http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=resurrection][u]resurrection[/u][/url]

They're two entirely different ideas that mean entirely different things, with reincarnation being Buddhist or Hindu, and resurrection being Christian.

The Bible talks about [i]resurrection[/i], and those quotes you're supplying are talking about [i]resurrection[/i]. "Born again" refers to being resurrected [i]once[/i], in keeping with Christ's rise after his crucifixion, in keeping with the rising of the dead for the Last Judgment. One "born again," not repeated, like reincarnation.

Just give it up, dude, just give it up.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Siren]Got news for ya, bub. "Born again" is not reincarnation. "Born again" is [i]resurrection[/i]. There is a very distinct difference.

[url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reincarnation"][u]reincarnation[/u][/url]

[url="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=resurrection"][u]resurrection[/u][/url]

They're two entirely different ideas that mean entirely different things, with reincarnation being Buddhist or Hindu, and resurrection being Christian.

The Bible talks about [i]resurrection[/i], and those quotes you're supplying are talking about [i]resurrection[/i]. "Born again" refers to being resurrected [i]once[/i], in keeping with Christ's rise after his crucifixion, in keeping with the rising of the dead for the Last Judgment. One "born again," not repeated, like reincarnation.

Just give it up, dude, just give it up.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Umm, you just don't understand, do you? I made the distinction. Being born again is accepting Jesus sacrifice, and being made pure by it. This is the rebirth, the resurrection.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Reincarnation is what happens if one is not resurrected during life.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Reincarnation: Going from death to death. A terrible cycle, as you said before.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Resurrection: Going from death to life. This is being saved, yay.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We who live in this world are born in sin. We are dead.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We who live in this world and are [i]reborn[/i] in Christ have no sin. We are alive.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Those who are alive live forever.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Those who are dead die forever.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Adahn]Umm, you just don't understand, do you? I made the distinction. Being born again is accepting Jesus sacrifice, and being made pure by it. This is the rebirth, the resurrection.

Reincarnation is what happens if one is not resurrected during life.

Reincarnation: Going from death to death. A terrible cycle, as you said before.

Resurrection: Going from death to life. This is being saved, yay.

We who live in this world are born in sin. We are dead.

We who live in this world and are reborn in Christ have no sin. We are alive.

Those who are alive live forever.

Those who are dead die forever.[/QUOTE]
There is no reincarnation mentioned in the Bible at all. Any reference to being reborn, rebirth, brought up from the darkness, back from death, etc, refers to the Last Judgment, where all are judged, where the dead are resurrected to be judged, and those deemed worthy are lifted up from the darkness, into Heaven.

Your...[i]thing[/i]...is Adahnism, and it's not based in Christianity at all.

[AzureWolf]

[FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]*golf clap* Wow, you really showed how superior you are to us with your great knowledge and intelligence, Mr. Coolness. I mean, I am now, like, so enlightened by your display of amazing quotes. :rolleyes:

Well, I'll just ignore the arrogance brewing from Coolness' posts and finally get down to what should have been stated a while ago. Believe it or not, I was SO going to prophesize your arrival, Coolness (couldn't you have just waited one more day?!).

Anyway, [QUOTE]Azurewolf, the leap of faith is believing that Jesus took death, and that you will never die. I'm not taking things as literally as possible. When Jesus says,[/QUOTE] Let's append this along. [quote name='Me!']Now, if you are saying/believing there is a leap of faith, that makes this thread boil down to spam and you are just announcing your beliefs, since no discussion can be derived from a leap of faith.[/quote] So, you admit that you have nothing to discuss, did you not? I mean, you mentioned that you love to debate, like as if you know something about it. Yet, the entire existence of this thread seems hypocritical since you can't truly debate religion. All you can do is go back and forth with some person, citing random quotes from and taking them either out of context or out-of-point. Even if they are on topic, there's nothing within that won't be countered by another phrase or paragraph from somewhere else in the book.

Ultimately, it's pointless, because everyone will keep reciting useless verse after verse, showing how it proves their point, and then someone will point out another verse that counters it.

I just have to laugh at how you two think you are so amazing for bouncing back useless quandaries at one another, and I agree with Siren that this thread should have been massacred quite a while ago due to the lack of... well... I'd rather not say it.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][font=book antiqua][size=2][color=blue]
Anyway, Let's append this along. So, you admit that you have nothing to discuss, did you not? I mean, you mentioned that you love to debate, like as if you know something about it. Yet, the entire existence of this thread seems hypocritical since you can't truly debate religion. All you can do is go back and forth with some person, citing random quotes from and taking them either out of context or out-of-point. Even if they are on topic, there's nothing within that won't be countered by another phrase or paragraph from somewhere else in the book.[color=#000000][/QUOTE][/color]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]If you can't truly debate religion, then would you mind telling me how in the name of God there are so many posts here? I will admit, more than a third of them are mine. I can't prove to you or anyone I'm right, but I can try and convince you that there is some truth behind my words.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf]
Ultimately, it's pointless, because everyone will keep reciting useless verse after verse, showing how it proves their point, and then someone will point out another verse that counters it.[color=#000000][/QUOTE][/color]

[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][b]Ultimately, it's pointless, because everyone will keep reciting useless after showing how it proves their point, and then someone will point out another that counters it. Wow, I get it now, debating anything is useless, because there are always studies whose results can be interpreted differently, and even some that contradict each other completely![/b][/color][/size][/font]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf]
I just have to laugh at how you two think you are so amazing for bouncing back useless quandaries at one another, and I agree with Siren that this thread should have been massacred quite a while ago due to the lack of... well... I'd rather not say it.[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Any debate with any sort of resource cited for evidence is apparently spam. Please, Azurewolf.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Panda]

I am sure many of you will agree that this thread has run it's course and needs to be put to rest.

Thread closed.

-Panda

Edit: To help clarify any confusion by members as to why this post was closed it is because it is a circular arguement. For example, it is like saying "I need money, but to earn money I need a job, but to get a job I need a car, but to get a car I need money." Repeat til the end of time. It's a catch 22, not matter what, it ends up stuck in the same vicious cycle.

I apologize for any confusion as to why the post was closed, I assumed it was obvious to all readers in the thread. I will leave more detailed reasons for all thread closures from now on. Again, I am sorry that the reason was not made clear.