Questioning Christianity

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][FONT=book antiqua][SIZE=2][COLOR=blue]So, here's what I THINK you are saying (and no, I don't agree with it): God flushed his [B]existence[/B] so we could continue to [B]exist[/B] through a never-ending cycle of [B]life[/B] and [B]death[/B], by removing the one punishment (a soul's [B]extinction[/B]).

Is that what you are saying?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

You partially understand. The never-ending cycle of life and death is the punishment. God came to take death away from us. Yes, I am saying that if you read, understand, and believe the bible (and have faith in it), you will not die. He offers us immortality as a way out of the cycle. There is no eternal damnation, though that may be better than what I'm saying. Your soul may exist, but if you die and are reborn, the person you were before (personality, body, etc.) will never exist again. True faith is believing in something that is contradicted all around you. Death rules this world, and I have faith in the fact that I will not die. God doesn't need us to die for him, and he won't accept the sacrifice of our lives. There never was a hell, only sheol/the grave/the womb. Nobody is born innocent, that one can only get from a spiritual rebirth. Until that spiritual rebirth is achieved, you will keep dying and being reborn. The Bible promises that one day all will be saved, whether they like it or not :D . I think I'll have my salvation now, though, but I guess that's just me.

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Adahn']You partially understand. The never-ending cycle of life and death is the punishment. God came to take death away from us. Yes, I am saying that if you read, understand, and believe the bible (and have faith in it), you will not die. He offers us immortality as a way out of the cycle. There is no eternal damnation, though that may be better than what I'm saying. Your soul may exist, but if you die and are reborn, the person you were before (personality, body, etc.) will never exist again. True faith is believing in something that is contradicted all around you. Death rules this world, and I have faith in the fact that I will not die. God doesn't need us to die for him, and he won't accept the sacrifice of our lives. There never was a hell, only sheol/the grave/the womb. Nobody is born innocent, that one can only get from a spiritual rebirth. Until that spiritual rebirth is achieved, you will keep dying and being reborn. The Bible promises that one day all will be saved, whether they like it or not :D . I think I'll have my salvation now, though, but I guess that's just me.[/quote]


I'm not sure about that, considering the actual interpretation by John after having seen the prophecy of the Final Judgment. I know I?ll be re-iterating what I said over AIM tonight? but this is for the sake of discussion.

I?m conflicted upon whether hell is the end all incarnation of evil from which all of those who are evil (removed from god), or just non-existence. I know that hell would be a total lack of God, for God is NOT omnipresent. God cannot exist with sin, or in sin. We were created to be ? in a metaphorical sense, married to God. We were to never have sin between us. That?s why we have death.. it removes us from God. Hell would never be living with God.. it?s like having something about yourself.. something which provides eternal happiness never being taken. Even though it was free.. some never take it because they are misled? or misjudging in not choosing him.

There will be a new heaven and a new Earth. God?s plans for earth died with Adam biting the apple. The sin ruined our possibility to have the life God planned for us. However, he has given us another chance, one that WILL succeed and be the heaven god planned for us.

My perception of evil: I was challenged by a professor to answer the question ?if God created everything, did he create evil?? Well, I inquired, does cold exist? ?surely it does.? Does darkness exist? ?Of course it does!?. I replied that physics and chemistry have proven that neither darkness nor cold exists. Darkness is merely the [i]absence[/i] of light, just as cold is the absence of heat. They are only words assigned to a concept that doesn?t physically exist!

Evil is the absence of God.

Impossibilities are everywhere, they aren?t something to be frightened about. Even in the most stable mathematics or chemistry, there are impossibilities. It is impossible to find the square root of a negative number. Ne+ is chemically impossible. If anything, the only thing that is not impossible is God. I think we are living proof that there is a God. Nothing can explain the beauty that is a human being.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
My perception of evil: I was challenged by a professor to answer the question ?if God created everything, did he create evil?? Well, I inquired, does cold exist? ?surely it does.? Does darkness exist? ?Of course it does!?. I replied that physics and chemistry have proven that neither darkness nor cold exists. Darkness is merely the [i]absence[/i] of light, just as cold is the absence of heat. They are only words assigned to a concept that doesn?t physically exist!
[/QUOTE]

Jordan, have you forgotten everything? Abdak, Jordan, abdak. There is so much darkness that it is unfair to say it is merely the absence of light. Light is an abomination, something that only exists because of the movements of annoying atoms in what should be the perfect void of space, oblivion. The same thing goes with heat, it should not be, and most of the universe is not touched by it. There is no such thing as heat, but rather the absence of stillness and peace (absolute zero). There is no such thing as absolute heat. Nor is there absolute light. It can always get hotter and brighter, but perfect darkness and perfect lack of heat are something we can measure, things we can see and know and understand. Sin pervades this world, and I assert that there is no good, merely the absence of sin. I'm not far from the mark, am I? The absence of sin is also something we can see and know and understand, while the depths of sin itself are murky, and nobody knows how deep that inky pool is. Am I in the wrong here? The basis for any comparison between relative opposites should be drawn from the perspective of an absolute, not something immeasurable. These absolutes are the true powers. The intensity of heat, of light, of sin, are all annihilated when enveloped in darkness, absolute zero, and the light of God. I therefore propose that we eliminate physics as a discipline because of it's fundamental flaws in relation to absolutes :D

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I am deeply apologetic that I skipped every post bar the first, but I'm not really too big on getting bogged into this discussion.

[quote=Adahn]What if your life didn't begin when you were born? Maybe it began when your soul was born.

"My soul was born with my body, both were created at the same time, and those two things make me what I am today!"

Hmm, so your soul had a beginning, then? Well, let me introduce you to one of the laws that everything follows. Everything that has a beginning has an end. It is indisputable, and applicable to everything. How can you say your soul had a beginning and be so confident that it will not end?
[/quote]

If you're going to entertain the possiblity of a soul, how can you then say that everything that has a beginning has an end? You can't have your cake and eat it too. By openly acknowledging the possibility of something that you cannot tell exists, you would be hypocritical not to accept that normal rules might not apply to it.

[quote]The way I see it, you have two choices. Either your soul was born and your soul will die, or your soul always was and always will be.[/quote]

Everything has a beginning. But not everything ends. That is the third option; your soul was created, and will go on.

I'd love to know how this applies to people who aren't Christians. We cannot be 'punishing ourselves with death', because we aren't begging for this forgiveness which has 'already been given'. So, where does that leave us?[/size]

[Afire]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
I'd love to know how this applies to people who aren't Christians. We cannot be 'punishing ourselves with death', because we aren't begging for this forgiveness which has 'already been given'. So, where does that leave us?[/size][/QUOTE]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]You are right not to beg for forgiveness, Baron Samedi. It's already finished for all, whether they believe it or not. But to recieve the [I]reward[/I] for forgiveness, which is no more death, you must first believe that He [I]is[/I] Eternal life. This is faith. Nothing else is faith.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][quote name='Drix D'Zanth']I'm not sure about that, considering the actual interpretation by John after having seen the prophecy of the Final Judgment.[/quote][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]I can't understand why people confuse prophesy with revelation, Drix D'Zanth. There is no prophesy in the New Testament. All prophesy in the O.T. was concerning the Christ and what He would finish. After Christ, we only have the [I]spirit of prophesy[/I]. This is the testimony of Christs finished work. Judgment day was over 2000 years ago. A revelation is a revealing of something already finished. Not something that is in the future. Yes, John had a revelation of what was finished in the spirit from beginning to end. But the truth had not yet come back to the world when He had it. He saw many things he didn't understand. It wasn't time yet. It's time now.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
I?m conflicted upon whether hell is the end all incarnation of evil from which all of those who are evil (removed from god), or just non-existence. I know that hell would be a total lack of God, for God is NOT omnipresent. God cannot exist with sin, or in sin. We were created to be ? in a metaphorical sense, married to God. We were to never have sin between us. That?s why we have death.. it removes us from God. Hell would never be living with God.. it?s like having something about yourself.. something which provides eternal happiness never being taken. Even though it was free.. some never take it because they are misled? or misjudging in not choosing him. [/QUOTE]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]I believe that the only reason God could see sin in the first place, is because satan had access to Gods throne. Satan was only created to be Gods mirror. Satans only power was reflection. Maybe he was only a spot of mercury, lol. His only power is what destroyed him in the end, as he reflected the death of Christ. He could not rise again from this image of death as Christ did. He had no power but reflection. God [I]is[/I] omnipresent. He is all, and in all. He sees no sin. He sees everything good. Only man has taken satans place, by denying what Christ did to take the punishment for sin. Although he can only reflect his sin to the world and himself. That spot of mercury may be hell itself, contained in the minds of men. It can only be removed from within. This is why Christ said he would not come again with outward show. Eternal happiness is not only for the soul. It is for the flesh. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
There will be a new heaven and a new Earth. God?s plans for earth died with Adam biting the apple. The sin ruined our possibility to have the life God planned for us. However, he has given us another chance, one that WILL succeed and be the heaven god planned for us.[/Quote][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]Adam never bit an apple. He looked in Gods mirror. He saw himself without Gods glory. He saw he was naked without it. He was never meant to see this. It would take alot to get that image from his mind, because his mind/soul/heart had consumed it. Only death could remove it.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
Evil is the absence of God.[/QUOTE][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]Evil means wrong. If God is love and God is Eternal life, then wouldn't it be wrong to not accept Eternal life now? How do you know, that the new heaven is not in your mind and the new earth is your flesh? If Christ would come again from within, then wouldn't the Kingdom of God be inside of man? Wouldn't man have free access to the tree of eternal life? I believe that the truth has already come back to the world. Only hardly anyone noticed. They were absorbed by their own sacrifices and trying to receive by them. It's a hard thing to throw away all your brownie points with God.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]I am deeply apologetic that I skipped every post bar the first, but I'm not really too big on getting bogged into this discussion.
[/size][/QUOTE]

Well then it's good you picked something people haven't put much effort into addressing :D

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
If you're going to entertain the possiblity of a soul, how can you then say that everything that has a beginning has an end? You can't have your cake and eat it too. By openly acknowledging the possibility of something that you cannot tell exists, you would be hypocritical not to accept that normal rules might not apply to it.[/size][/QUOTE]

This is not a normal rule. It is a universal rule that applies to all things. An even greater rules is that there is balance in all things. To create something that cannot be destroyed goes against the rule of balance.

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
Everything has a beginning. But not everything ends. That is the third option; your soul was created, and will go on.
[/size][/QUOTE]

This also goes againstthe rule of balance. I don't know how to explain it further, it's just something that can't be contradicted in any way.

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
I'd love to know how this applies to people who aren't Christians. We cannot be 'punishing ourselves with death', because we aren't begging for this forgiveness which has 'already been given'. So, where does that leave us?[/size][/QUOTE]

This was directed at Christians, but the same rules apply to non-Christians, too. If you don't accept eternal life and embrace death, then you're no better or worse than those who wait to die for their salvation. You will both end up in the same place; the womb. You will be thrust back into this life with another chance to become immortal.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]But, Adahn, if there cannot exist anything that cannot be destroyed, can God be destroyed? Or is he [He] immortal? If so, he is against the balance of nature.

You cannot say that there are such things as God and souls and immortality, and then try and continue the rules of physical existence with them.

How do [i]you[/i] know that you cannot create something that can't be destroyed. For all you know there is infinite possibility because God wills the Universe to keep expanding. We may think that there is some Great Rule Of Balance that applies to everything, but if you are willing to accept something based entirely on faith... then you... Geez, it's like saying water is wet.

To accept the possibilities that there exists something that we have no proof of existing requires a breach in normal thought. You understand what I mean? Who says that any rules apply to them.

And what about all the people who truly don't believe they'll die. And then do. What then? The crazy ones who don't believe in death. They die.[/size]

[Adahn]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1]But, Adahn, if there cannot exist anything that cannot be destroyed, can God be destroyed? Or is he [He'] immortal? If so, he is against the balance of nature.[/size][/quote]

I said that nothing that is created cannot be destroyed. God was not created, so he cannot be destroyed. Simple.

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
You cannot say that there are such things as God and souls and immortality, and then try and continue the rules of physical existence with them.
[/size][/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about rules of physical existence. I'm using one rule that applies to the physical and the metaphysical. Balance. Everything is in perfect harmony with everything else. If anything is out of balance, everything collapses. I will use physical examples, though, because we are more accustomed to them. Imagine playing pool and shooting the cue ball at another one. The cue ball hits it and stops, and the ball you hit doesn't go anywhere. Uh oh. That's bad. If a rule doesn't hold up in any one place, it must fall apart in every place. All math and physics are is balance. What would happen if you could prove that 2=0? Math would lose all credibility. Why? Because it's out of [I]balance[/I] . So, I guess my response to your statement is yes, yes I can say there are such things as God and souls and immortality, and then try and continue the rules of physical existence with them. Why do I insist this? Because EVERYTHING is physical. Perhaps the soul has a physical representation that is too complex for any human to fathom.

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
How do [i]you[/i] know that you cannot create something that can't be destroyed. For all you know there is infinite possibility because God wills the Universe to keep expanding. We may think that there is some Great Rule Of Balance that applies to everything, but if you are willing to accept something based entirely on faith... then you... Geez, it's like saying water is wet.[/size][/QUOTE]

God created everything to balance out and make sense. Look around and see what He made. These are the rules we have to live with. Everything has to make sense for us. Creating something from nothing doesn't make sense.

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
To accept the possibilities that there exists something that we have no proof of existing requires a breach in normal thought. You understand what I mean? Who says that any rules apply to them.[/size][/QUOTE]

There is proof, you just have to find it for yourself. When you've got God on your side, you'll know. He is a POWERFUL ally, let me tell you :D

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
And what about all the people who truly don't believe they'll die. And then do. What then? The crazy ones who don't believe in death. They die.[/size][/QUOTE]

Crazy people who don't believei in death or God die. People who truly believe in God don't believe in death. Those people don't die.

The general feeling of all yoru posts is, "How do you know if you can't know?" Well, I simply understand things better than you do. You'll oppose me no matter what I say. I tell you what. Prove to me that the rule of balance can be broken, and I'll concede to you. Shouldn't be too hard for you, seeing as my argument is so weak.

[Guest Midnight Rush]

[quote name='Adahn']You find it so easy to tell everyone how they're going to hell if they don't follow what you believe. I'm telling you that there is no hell, and no eternal life for you after you die. I don't have to fight your God, because the God you see doesn't exist. And if you tried to kill me, you'd die trying, because I believe in a God of life. If you found yourself in the path of a train, and you knew you wouldn't have time to get off the tracks, you'd feel several things. One of those feelings would be excitement, and you'd revel in the moment, ready to let your life be taken away from you so you could see the God that cannot save you from death. If I'm on those tracks, I'll tell that train to stop, and it will stop. Sin and Death are the same exact thing. You can't have one without the other. Jesus took sin from us, and he took death from us. You Christians hold on to your death, pouring your souls into it, denying what Christ did for you. Again, you find it so easy to say all those people are going to hell, but you're in the same boat they are. You'll all die and be reborn until you're ready to receive eternal life. Don't you dare tell me I've stepped over the line. If you want to fight me, fight me with truth, if you have any in you.[/quote]

Dude, you are insane. I'll bet you fifty thousand dollars of my college fund taht your train won't stop.

I'll be glad to test your theories about me dieing trying to kill you. Next time your in PA gimme a call, I'm sure I can find room in my schedule.

Your so full of it... the Christian soul is immortal, and No body is.

I would tell you to go to hell, but your going there at an alarming pace. Nothing I could do could speed it up.

[Adahn]

[quote name='Midnight Rush']Dude, you are insane. I'll bet you fifty thousand dollars of my college fund that your train won't stop.[/quote]

I see no purpose for this statement whatsoever. Are you trying to establish your superiority in monetary worth? Perhaps you think you're more intelligent than I am? I'll touch on that later. Some Christian.

[QUOTE=Midnight Rush]
I'll be glad to test your theories about me dying trying to kill you. Next time your in PA give me a call, I'm sure I can find room in my schedule. [/QUOTE]

You'd be willing to commit murder? Or are you just threatening me openly?

[QUOTE=Midnight Rush]
You're so full of it... the Christian soul is immortal, and no body is. [/QUOTE]

The soul is immortal. If it weren't, people's souls would die, and they wouldn't exist. I won't believe in a god that does this. Since the soul is already immortal, salvation is for the flesh, and only the flesh.

[QUOTE=Midnight Rush]
I would tell you to go to hell, but you're going there at an alarming pace. Nothing I could do could speed it up.[/QUOTE]

Jesus finished Hell and Death 2,000 years ago. Your threat is empty. There is no hell, only eternal life as an escape from the cycle of death and rebirth that was started when Adam sinned. I hope you find the truth in some other life, because it is very obviously lost on you now. You are a quickening spirit, and I wish you better luck the next time Jesus offers you eternal life.

EDIT: I hope you don't mind that I fixed your numerous spelling errors. Those things tend to bother me.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Adahn, by that same measure I could ask you to prove that the Law of Balance exists in the metaphysical realm. Could you prove it? No. Because humans cannot... know anything about the metaphysical realm. Because we are physical creatures.

You say that you 'simply understand things better than' me. But all you're doing is operating off of faith. You cannot understand something that you have no proof of. You see, and I find myself reiterating this in just about every single religious thread, you cannot cement down your beliefs in something like this. All that I am doing is showing you the weak points. I cannot prove that they exist, but by not being prepared to accept that anything may be possible, you are restricting yourself on a matter you know nothing about. I don't mean that nastily, but people cannot know the truth of it. God may be a powerful ally, but what if he is a placebo...hhhmm?

If there is proof, but everyone has to find it for themselves...then couldn't you say that the answer exists within yourself? Therefore containing no proof bar the absolute zealousness of faith?

Creating something from nothing makes no sense? Look at what God did. Makes no sense at all, does it? And if you want to look at it in other terms, not everything makes sense. There are lots of senseless things going on in the world.

[quote]If anything is out of balance, everything collapses. I will use physical examples, though, because we are more accustomed to them.[/quote]

Exactly. Physical examples. Give me a metaphysical one. Please.

[quote]What would happen if you could prove that 2=0? Math would lose all credibility. Why? Because it's out of balance .[/quote]

Does the square root of 2 make any sense? No. My maths teacher spoke to me about a guy she knew in college. He re-wrote the entire syllabus by proving that 1+1=1. The example he used for his end of year paper? If you have 1 pile of dirt, and add another pile of dirt, you still have one pile of dirt. I believe he got an 'A'. That is the line between maths and common sense.

And you're wrong. Not everything is physical. Is God?[/size]

[Adahn]

Well, you wrote alot there, Baron Samedi. God created everything from Himself. He is unlimited, and if He wanted to make the universe expand, He could, because he can't be "used up". You want proof, but I can't give you that. All I can give you is the truth. If you want proof, you'll have to look for it within yourself. If you have faith, you have proof. It has to come from within. If you look for it in yourself, and you can't find it, it's because you don't expect or you don't want to find it. Open your heart, and you will receive all the proof you need. How do I know it's within you? You'll just have to take my word for it. God "created" us in his image, from the infinite perfection that is himself. Since we originated from him, we share in his immortality. To destroy a soul would be to destroy a part of God. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but it can be changed. If our souls were created from something other than God, then they would be an abomination, and they would disprove God. And throughout all of this is balance, balance, balance.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]And the thing with that is, people can find whatever they want inside their hearts, and not necessarily the truth. If God is infinte mass [if everything is made from him] he is everywhere. And I believe somewhere here, someone said that God is not in the presence of sin. Which obviously contradicts itself. Which only proves that people can find whatever they want inside their hearts.

And I think that either I'm getting confused, or you stuffed up [sorry to say that, this last post of yours has awoken in me a tenderness for you ;)], but you said you cannot destroy a soul. And therefore souls could not begin. Which means they have been around forever. But aren't you saying that God made everything? Chose a part of himself to be the soul? In which case he could 'change' that, effectively destroying the soul. When you reach the bottom of your swing, the potential energy you had at the top is gone. Not destroyed, but not there. What if God does that to souls?[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]And the thing with that is, people can find whatever they want inside their hearts, and not necessarily the truth. If God is infinte mass [if everything is made from him] he is everywhere. And I believe somewhere here, someone said that God is not in the presence of sin. Which obviously contradicts itself. Which only proves that people can find whatever they want inside their hearts.

And I think that either I'm getting confused, or you stuffed up [sorry to say that, this last post of yours has awoken in me a tenderness for you ;)], but you said you cannot destroy a soul. And therefore souls could not begin. Which means they have been around forever. But aren't you saying that God made everything? Chose a part of himself to be the soul? In which case he could 'change' that, effectively destroying the soul. When you reach the bottom of your swing, the potential energy you had at the top is gone. Not destroyed, but not there. What if God does that to souls?[/size][/QUOTE]

Sin is merely the absence of God. He cannot exist where he is absent. There is no contradiction.

Souls cannot be destroyed, but they can be changed. God [I]can[/I] take our souls back inside of himself. I don't think he will, and I hope he doesn't, though. We would just exist as he does, become a part of God himself. I don't think he wants that, though. We're his children, and he loves us. If he wanted to take us all back into him, he wouldn't have created us in the first place. The energy is not lost. Yes, the swing no longer has the energy, it is given to the air it pushes up against, which increases the energy of those molecules, releasing more energy as heat. You've probably heard of the butterfly theory. It basically says that if a butterfly were to flap its wings just once, that could cause a subtle change in the winds that could eventually be the deciding factor in whether or not a tornado occurs. If we were to return to God, our souls would not be destroyed, they just would not be ours anymore.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I know that the energy is still there. It is transformed though, and can be viewed as having no connection with the potential it was any more. If our souls were changed, and absorbed back into God, they are as good as destroyed. They wouldn't exist anymore. Whatever made them would still exist, but any other qualities they may have wouldn't. If you blow up a building, it is destroyed. Whatever it was made of still exists, but it is not a building.

[quote]God created everything from Himself.[/quote] But if he created everything from himself, how can there ever be an absence of God? It makes no sense, despite your assurance that everything makes sense.

And yes, I have heard of the Butterfly Theory. Really though, I think it's flawed, because the slightest breeze would disrupt the energy passed on from the butterfly's wings. And this would mean that anything could cause a tornado. Such as me clapping my hands. Or typing on this keyboard.

But the theory is a cool idea, nonetheless.[/size]

[Adahn]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']I know that the energy is still there. It is transformed though, and can be viewed as having no connection with the potential it was any more. If our souls were changed, and absorbed back into God, they are as good as destroyed. They wouldn't exist anymore. Whatever made them would still exist, but any other qualities they may have wouldn't. If you blow up a building, it is destroyed. Whatever it was made of still exists, but it is not a building.[size=2][/quote][/size][/size]
[size=1][size=2][/size][/size]
[size=1][size=2]God will not absorb our souls, though you are absolutely correct in your reasoning.[/size]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
But if he created everything from himself, how can there ever be an absence of God? It makes no sense, despite your assurance that everything makes sense.[size=2][/QUOTE][/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]We are more powerful than you may think. We chose to separate ourselves from God when we ate from the tree of knowledge. God gave us free will, and the ability to separate ourselves from him was a part of that.[/size]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi]
And yes, I have heard of the Butterfly Theory. Really though, I think it's flawed, because the slightest breeze would disrupt the energy passed on from the butterfly's wings. And this would mean that anything could cause a tornado. Such as me clapping my hands. Or typing on this keyboard.

But the theory is a cool idea, nonetheless.[/size][/QUOTE]
It's not flawed. You clapping your hands or not clapping your hands could have dire consequences, just the same as the flap of a butterfly's wings. The breeze that disrupts the energy from the butterfly is a part of the chain reaction. The butterfly can't do it alone, but it plays an integral part.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]My only point with the soul absorbtion was that souls can be destroyed.

We did not choose to separate ourselves from God. Adam and Eve did. They were given everything on a platter; if it's real, then how come we have to fight so hard against our ingrained beliefs to win it back? And, forgive me if my religious knowledge is rusty, but didn't a snake persuade Eve to eat the apple. And didn't God make the snake? If so, why would he allow a wily and cunning creature to be in the Garden?

The thing is, it is big scale occurrences that cause tornadoes. Not mini-dramas. That small breeze will be dissipated and spread around. If it is a calm day, the energy will expend itself in other ways. Why can't you feel it when you blow softly on your hand, if you hold your hand far away. Because the air only has so much energy, which gets... 'burned' off in other ways. And so, a tiny little butterfly flap would most likely not even make it ten centimetres.[/size]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

The "Butterfly Theory" is BS because it cannot be tested. There's no way to control all you'd need to control in an experiment designed to try and verify it. It's just something interesting someone made up.

As for everything else you say, Adahn, it is completely devoid of logic. But that's understandable, because faith and reason are mutually exclusive.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]The "Butterfly Theory" is BS because it cannot be tested. There's no way to control all you'd need to control in an experiment designed to try and verify it. It's just something interesting someone made up.

As for everything else you say, Adahn, it is completely devoid of logic. But that's understandable, because faith and reason are mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]
[font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen][b]Ouch, Mr. Darkblade. *puts a band-aid on his wounded pride*. The basic idea behind the butterfly theory is that all events, big or small, have many, many contributing factors. Since all said factors must be present for the final product, no one is greater than another in determining the outcome. It is, therefore, not BS.[/b][/color][/size][/font]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I am a creature of logic, Sciros. Point out my flaws, please. You said everything is devoid of logic, so pick [i]one [/i]thing. I can defend any and all of my claims. I will not allow you to declare victory, however, without isolating anything I've said.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Midnight Rush]Since you are invincible, I guess I can't kill you.

But seriously, you need a girlfriend, some hobbies, and an ice cold beer. I feel really bad for you man, maybe I'll fund a home for the mentally deranged someday. If so, I'll be sure to give you a call... you can stay for free.[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]If you don't have anything even remotely constructive to say, don't say anything at all. I'm trying to have a serious discussion with people here, and I don't need children insulting me. If you post something like this again, I will report it. I challenge you personally to take my points and argue against them. I don't think you will, though, because you can't. I speak the truth, and all that comes out of your mouth are lies. I dare you to actually think about what I've said in these past 20 or so posts. You're afraid, Midnight Rush. I'm calling you out. Debate with me. If you won't, then you have no business here.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, and I'm studying to be a Cell and Molecular Biologist, I'm actually quite terrible at art.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Charles]

[quote name='Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I am a creature of logic, Sciros. Point out my flaws, please.[/color][/size][/font'][/b][/quote]Well, first of all, that's a very contradictory statement in and of itself based on the inscrutable nature of the rhetoric I've seen from you thus far.

[quote]Well, you wrote alot there, Baron Samedi. God created everything from Himself. He is unlimited, and if He wanted to make the universe expand, He could, because he can't be "used up". [b]You want proof, but I can't give you that. All I can give you is the truth. If you want proof, you'll have to look for it within yourself. If you have faith, you have proof[/b]. It has to come from within. If you look for it in yourself, and you can't find it, it's because you don't expect or you don't want to find it. Open your heart, and you will receive all the proof you need. How do I know it's within you? [b]You'll just have to take my word for it.[/b] God "created" us in his image, from the infinite perfection that is himself. Since we originated from him, we share in his immortality. To destroy a soul would be to destroy a part of God. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but it can be changed. If our souls were created from something other than God, then they would be an abomination, and they would disprove God. And throughout all of this is balance, balance, balance.[/quote]
Edit: I'm deleting Midnight Rush's post. Please don't bring that bullcrap in here. And you spelled employer wrong in your signature.

okthnxbye.

[Adahn]

[quote name='Charles']Well, first of all, that's a very contradictory statement in and of itself based on the inscrutable nature of the rhetoric I've seen from you thus far.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Baron Samedi is not unintelligent. He makes me think, and I can sometimes be unclear when I write what I am thinking. Some things can only be proved to oneself through one's own reasoning. People can talk about their personal experiences with God all they want, but those experiences don't really mean anything to anyone else. I was trying to tell him that if he wants proof, he'll have to find it on his own. I can only tell him and anyone else what I've learned, and try to encourage them to think about the same sorts of things that helped me to reach my own conclusions. I really, really hope my logic isn't bad in this, too. If it is, then I'm hopeless.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Not unintelligent? High praise indeed, lol.

I can see what you're saying too. And thats what I've been angling at. You have no proof, only belief in your heart. But the thing is, everybody can see different things in their hearts, and you can't really say it is necessarily the truth. I am not saying that you're wrong. But people need to accept the possiblity that they may well be wrong. Because in something without any proof, you can't hold the walls together with circumstantial mortar. You need to look at everything, and take it all in, without making a decision. Oh, follow whatever you want, but be prepared that you may be wrong, and accept and be open to other views.[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Not unintelligent? High praise indeed, lol.

I can see what you're saying too. And thats what I've been angling at. You have no proof, only belief in your heart. But the thing is, everybody can see different things in their hearts, and you can't really say it is necessarily the truth. I am not saying that you're wrong. But people need to accept the possiblity that they may well be wrong. Because in something without any proof, you can't hold the walls together with circumstantial mortar. You need to look at everything, and take it all in, without making a decision. Oh, follow whatever you want, but be prepared that you may be wrong, and accept and be open to other views.[/size][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]It is my belief that everyone knows the difference between right and wrong in their hearts. If this is true, then if you feel something is right in your heart, and it feels good, then it is the truth. There is no greater proof of anything than the proof one can glean from one's own heart and mind. Other people can affect how you feel, sometimes, but the final decision is your own. I ask you, Baron Samedi, what is in your heart? If you have not yet searched it, it's never too late to do so.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, and not unintelligent is a huge compliment coming from me.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Adahn, do you know what the word "prove" means? You can't tell someone to find proof for something "within himself." If you claim that faith is proof then you do not know what the word [i]proof[/i] means. Which makes things difficult for you...

You make claims such as "God is within you," "God 'created us in his image,' from the infinite perfection that is himself," etc. etc. and you have nothing substantial to back them up. You are working off solely your personal interpretation of "holy" scripture.

You claim that what you think is the truth. Well, then, the burden of proof lies on you buddy. You're going to have to prove to us that there is no other possible alternative, that there is no other explanation other than yours for everything you've mentioned. You are going to have to prove that the sources you derive your conclusions from are also telling the truth. Prove it. Otherwise your claims are baseless.
_____________________________
Also, your explanation of the butterfly theory doesn't help you. It still cannot be tested. Tell me, has an experiment been designed with enough controls to suggest that, indeed, "Since all said factors must be present for the final product, no one is greater than another in determining the outcome." It hasn't. There is no suggestion that the butterfly theory is true. It is a postulation, nothing more.