Who Am I?

[O-Ushi]

Now, I've been doing some pondering in my caffiene-deprived state, and more and more my thoughts have been growing philisophical. And while I have delved deeper into these philisophical realms two important questions have popped up, and I was hoping you could help me shed some light on the answers. The questions are not "Why are we here?" or "Is there a God?" The Questions are simple:

[B]Who[/B] and [B]Where[/B]

I will attempt to explain the latter question first. I re-watched the Matrix and a thought came into my head. If their world is real to them in touch, taste, smell and all, are they actually there?...alright, another analogy.

[I]Hermes (for lack of better names, I will use Greek Gods) has volunteered for an experiment. The experiment is to control his body while his brain is not in it. Hisbrain shall be kept in Athens while he himself is in Rome. He appears to see what his eyes can see, smell what his nose can smell and feel what he touches with his fingers, just as if his bran is in his body. However, this hypothetical situations begs a question. [B]Where is he?[/B][/I]

Now, generally there are two answers to this conudrum.
[list=1]
[*]He is where he believes he is
[*]He is where his brain (or mind) is
[/list]
Now, I shall attempt to tackle the first answer. For this I will ask you to conduct an experiment for me. First I will ask you to close your eyes (after you have read this, of course) and for 30 seconds picture yourself at school (or work) [I]as if you were actually there.[/I] I mean every smell, sound and detail yuo can remember.

Were you actually there?

If the answer is 'Yes' then congratulations, you have suceeded in inventing teleportation and will recieve your Nobel Prize shortly. Saying that, however, if the answer [I]is[/I] 'Yes,' than Plato would be correct. Sorry, getting ahead of myself here. For those of you who don't know, Plato had a theory about the nature of the Universe being false. He would summarise thusly (this definition is commonly known as "Plato's Cave")

[I]Imagine yourself in a cave with three openings, one at the back and one at either side of the cave. At the far wall of the cave there is a row of prisoners chained in such a way that they can neither turn to look behind (to see outside) them nor to either side, and they have been chained there since the day they were born for some unimaginable crime of their ancestors. Between the two exits of the wall stretches a road, and upon that road there people walk back and forth carrying various objects and statues of animals. Beyond the wall (but before the exit into the outside) is a bonfire, which burns day and night. The bofire casts shadow onto the back wall, in front of the prisoners, of the people carrying the objects. To the prisoners those shadows are reality.[/I]

He would go onto say that means that the objects and the outside are the "World of Forms," and we (that is to say, our Souls and Minds) are created there with the knowledge of that wall already implanted. This world is merely a reflection of the World of Forms (which is a perfect world), and everything within it are just pale shadows.

But I digress.

Should the answer be 'No,' then are we truely simply a organic lifeform with only the illusion of perception and intelligence? Are we merely programmed with logic? Is there such a thing as intelligence, or are we just fooling ourselves?

As for [B]Who[/B].

[I]Take for your consideration Athena and Ares. They are both involved in a car crash. Athena's body is all but destroyed but her brain is fine, while Ares' brain is mangled but his body fine. To save the life of the one who can be saved , a team of doctors and scientists place Athena's brain in Ares' body with compelte sucess. All of Athena's memory's and her personality is saved, but she is now in the body of a man. The question is, who is she?[/I]

Now, scientists would normally say that she is Ares, as her DNA is a match with his, and no two different people can have exact DNA (except for clones, which is an impossibility for the moment). Others may argue that she is still Athena, as that is who she believes she is. But take this for your consideration (merely as a point of argument, as I have no strong feelings one way or the other). Say tomorrow I wake up and claim to be George W. Bush. I have his exact personality, his personal tastes and can tell you ever tiny facet of his life. Who would you be to argue that I am not George W. Bush?

I think that's enoigh for you to digest for now. Give me your thoughts and opinions on these deep philisophical issues (and please, try not to flame).

Thank you

[Solo Tremaine]

[COLOR=#503F86]To argue the [b]Who[/b] first (since it's nearest to the Quick Reply box):

If you did wake up and claim to be George W. Bush then there would be nothing to dispute it, save for the fact that a George W. Bush already exists. The fact is that you are still two separate entities in existance, and from the moment you divide you begin leading different lives. For one thing, the first Dubya would have woken up in the White House, and you're in your bedroom, which immediately starts giving you different experiences even though you may shae exatcly the same ideas, tastes, personalities and habits.

With Ares/Athena, since the mind controls the body, Athena would consider herself to be Athena, since it's only her body that has changed. The philosophical argument seems sound until you put it into a real context- the fact is that she would wake up first as Athena, see her body and then start to have serious problems. She's then free to make up her own mind as to who she wants to be- mn or woman.

With regards to [b]Where[/b], the examples you have are to do with perception- the 'reality' of the prisoners is that they're looking at shadows, but they just don't know what creates them or where they go. It doesn't create a whole new world, because it's already part of a bigger one- they're just incredibly limited as to what they actually do know about everything. If a baby grew up in a house where everyone else was in animal suits and told her that they were really weird creatures and that the rest of the world doesn't exist, she would believe it, but in term of actual physicality it's just a big front. To her, the outside world doesn't exist. But it obviously does, because it's just there, along with everyone else that might be in exactly the same situation. I really don't think there's anything more complicated to it than that.

The mind and body, while usually connected, as soon as they're physically separated, become two different things. Physically speaking, Hermes isn't in one place or the other- he's in both, just not entirely in either. To him, he would believe he's in Rome, plus brain. So as a person, he's in Rome. His brain can't sense that it's not in his body if it's still connected in the same way as it would be normally. But I guess that's just being picky, heh. I don't tend to look at things in this much detail- I just get confused.[/COLOR]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]In regards to the [b]Where[/b], could you not argue that if a person believes with all their heart that they are in a specific location, then it may as well be true? The reality of the thing doesn't matter...if I [was slightly deluded] and believed that at this moment I was having tea with the Queen, and there was no way you could convince me otherwise...then my own reality would be altered. As everyone sees things from their own unique perspective, everyone has an individual truth. And then, to me, wouldn't that be the truth? I would not, according to you, be having tea with the Queen. But if I 'knew' that I was, then I'd be doing it. But only to me, and my own truth.

You are where you believe you are. If you are going to split mind and body, you have to assume that 'you' is the mind. And, it doesn't matter where your actual brain is, if your mind thinks that it's somewhere else. Reality matters very little in someone's view of the world, I've often found ~_^
Belief is the answer, but only to each person as an individual. To people who aren't the individual, then it's obviously wherever the brain is, because thats where it originates from.

In regards to [b]Who[/b], I think Solo hit the nail on the head. If you have the mind of another person, you must still be another person. Unless we get into the delusional part of it, where they may actually do everything he does, then they cannot be physically doing the same thing. They must become two different people. It's like a forked path I suppose: Where it diverges, new things happen. They have a shared heritage, but from that fork their 'lives' are different.

With both of these questions, it depends if you are the subject or an outside viewer. To the subject though, who/where you think you are is the ultimate reality, though that may not be the case in reality.

But then you can go into that whole 'What is reality?' thing. Maybe later, lol.[/size]

[Guest Midnight Rush]

[QUOTE=O-Ushi]

As for [B]Who[/B].

[/QUOTE]

An over-grown spermcell with FAR too much time on his/her hands.

[Sui Generis]

[COLOR=Indigo]Well lets think about it this way...

[i]George[/i] (Lets use George for the heck of it) [i]falls asleep after a long day at work. George dreams about playing in the World Series. George goes on to[/i] (in his dream) [i]hit the game winning homerun in game seven with the bases loaded. Now the team was down by 3 runs and he was down in the count 3-2, so he became the hero of the world series.[/i]

---The question then is: while his mind actively created this world, and his mind experienced the sensation; did he truly win the World Series? Now automatically logic screams "NO' he was simply dreaming, but as the question has been brought up, are you you because of your physical shape, or are you you because of your mind?

Which makes another quesiton arise; is there a presence of a soul? With the presence of a soul then the question could arise whether or not you are you because of your soul, then where would the soul be?


---The second question from this same scenario is: was the dream world a real world? Arguably George experienced the sensation of hitting the ball, he still felt the emotion of winning the game. So theoretically George experienced everything of the situation, if he is affected by the situation is it a true situation. So if you can feel everything real about it is it a real world?

So although you used the matrix analogy, truly the dream analogy could be used just to show everyday occurance.




Now to go onto my answers to your questions; or perhaps my speculations is a better phrase.


[i]Where[/i]

Now as you stated theoretically (if it were possible) the mind is one place; and the body is at another place. Both are still functioning and the mind feels the sensation of the body.

As Solo said a lot of this could be considered on perspection, but I'm going (as I said) make my own speculation. [i]Neither Here Nor There[/i]

What I'm going to state is it takes a whole to run, not just a part. Although the brain seemingly has communication with the body, it can't invariably understand every aspect of whats going on, because it is not in the situation itself. It can be (thereotically) recieving messages from the body, but still it is only a part. It goes both ways without the body and mind attached, then invariably it is not in Rome entirely nor Athens entirely. Instead where he is; could almost be states as no where. It would be the variable in the equation; the x if you will.

With x being all numbers (or in this case places) it is entirely impossible for a human to solve the equation, and thats where I think this is. The human can't comprehend nothingness, nor can it comprehend not being somewhere. So thusly I really think the answer to the question will never be solved, untill perhaps the human brain is tapped into fully.




[i]Who[/i]

I'm not going to take too much time on this, just going to use the exact same theory as the other.

Basically she is both. Neither one nor the other, just both.

(Sorry I have to go...I couldn't finish it)
[/COLOR]

[chobit]

Though I don't have enough time to answer your question,I would suggest reading "Taking the Red Pill" which is a really great book looking into the deepness of the Matrix.

[Adahn]

I'm sorry, but this is going to be brief :( The body is a complete unit, and you can't take someone's physical brain and move it, expecting it to work. To that end, certain parts have certain functions. What if you lose a part of memory? Are you still yourself? Here's something to chew on. [I]everything is physical[/I] . The mind is just a product of the physical brain. You can't put someone's brain in someone elses body, because they will die. As for dreams, they're not real. Even if you convince yourself they are, they still aren't. They have no place within the limits of our reality, which are time and space. Your perception of the world is not the world. Even our lives today, we miss so much. There's more going on than we're aware of. If you can change who you are, then you've changed your personality and attitude. You are unique in every way, and no part of you can function unattached from the rest. The truth about reality is out there, but not even all the minds and bodies of the world put together can completely understand its complexities.

[Guest Inukenomaru]

[QUOTE=O-Ushi]Now, I've been doing some pondering in my caffiene-deprived state, and more and more my thoughts have been growing philisophical. And while I have delved deeper into these philisophical realms two important questions have popped up, and I was hoping you could help me shed some light on the answers. The questions are not "Why are we here?" or "Is there a God?" The Questions are simple:

[B]Who[/B] and [B]Where[/B]

I will attempt to explain the latter question first. I re-watched the Matrix and a thought came into my head. If their world is real to them in touch, taste, smell and all, are they actually there?...alright, another analogy.

[I]Hermes (for lack of better names, I will use Greek Gods) has volunteered for an experiment. The experiment is to control his body while his brain is not in it. Hisbrain shall be kept in Athens while he himself is in Rome. He appears to see what his eyes can see, smell what his nose can smell and feel what he touches with his fingers, just as if his bran is in his body. However, this hypothetical situations begs a question. [B]Where is he?[/B][/I]

Now, generally there are two answers to this conudrum.
[list=1]
[*]He is where he believes he is
[*]He is where his brain (or mind) is
[/list]
Now, I shall attempt to tackle the first answer. For this I will ask you to conduct an experiment for me. First I will ask you to close your eyes (after you have read this, of course) and for 30 seconds picture yourself at school (or work) [I]as if you were actually there.[/I] I mean every smell, sound and detail yuo can remember.

Were you actually there?

If the answer is 'Yes' then congratulations, you have suceeded in inventing teleportation and will recieve your Nobel Prize shortly. Saying that, however, if the answer [I]is[/I] 'Yes,' than Plato would be correct. Sorry, getting ahead of myself here. For those of you who don't know, Plato had a theory about the nature of the Universe being false. He would summarise thusly (this definition is commonly known as "Plato's Cave")

[I]Imagine yourself in a cave with three openings, one at the back and one at either side of the cave. At the far wall of the cave there is a row of prisoners chained in such a way that they can neither turn to look behind (to see outside) them nor to either side, and they have been chained there since the day they were born for some unimaginable crime of their ancestors. Between the two exits of the wall stretches a road, and upon that road there people walk back and forth carrying various objects and statues of animals. Beyond the wall (but before the exit into the outside) is a bonfire, which burns day and night. The bofire casts shadow onto the back wall, in front of the prisoners, of the people carrying the objects. To the prisoners those shadows are reality.[/I]

He would go onto say that means that the objects and the outside are the "World of Forms," and we (that is to say, our Souls and Minds) are created there with the knowledge of that wall already implanted. This world is merely a reflection of the World of Forms (which is a perfect world), and everything within it are just pale shadows.

But I digress.

Should the answer be 'No,' then are we truely simply a organic lifeform with only the illusion of perception and intelligence? Are we merely programmed with logic? Is there such a thing as intelligence, or are we just fooling ourselves?

As for [B]Who[/B].

[I]Take for your consideration Athena and Ares. They are both involved in a car crash. Athena's body is all but destroyed but her brain is fine, while Ares' brain is mangled but his body fine. To save the life of the one who can be saved , a team of doctors and scientists place Athena's brain in Ares' body with compelte sucess. All of Athena's memory's and her personality is saved, but she is now in the body of a man. The question is, who is she?[/I]

Now, scientists would normally say that she is Ares, as her DNA is a match with his, and no two different people can have exact DNA (except for clones, which is an impossibility for the moment). Others may argue that she is still Athena, as that is who she believes she is. But take this for your consideration (merely as a point of argument, as I have no strong feelings one way or the other). Say tomorrow I wake up and claim to be George W. Bush. I have his exact personality, his personal tastes and can tell you ever tiny facet of his life. Who would you be to argue that I am not George W. Bush?

I think that's enoigh for you to digest for now. Give me your thoughts and opinions on these deep philisophical issues (and please, try not to flame).

Thank you[/QUOTE]I understand completly and it was nice talking^_^ :tasty:

[Panda]

[quote name='Inukenomaru']um.. sorry but if you put the brain in a fake body say an andoid it's possiple :smirk:[/quote]

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