So Much Violence in the US: Why?

[Epitome]

[size=1][color=SeaGreen]Well, I just recently saw the movie "Bowling for Columbine," and in that movie it explains how in other countries, they watch the same movies we do, have the same amount of guns we do, etc., but yet, there are so many more killings in the US than in other countries. Why?

It makes no sense. We had in 2002 over 11,000 killings in the US, while in Canada, they barely had 60. Yet in the movie, they go on to explain that there are over 4,000,000 guns in Canada. So why arent the people using their guns the same we use our guns?

And yet again, in Germany, which has a HUGE militaristic background, they even dont have as many killings as the US does. So what makes us as Americans so much more violent than others?

I just would like to see other opinions on this situation. My opinion really is that I really dont know why. It seems as if, me being an American, that we always go for violence to solve problems rather than trying to talk it out, or have mediation to work through a problem. For example, on Thursday of this past week, a school fight broke out over an arguement about who is a better wide reciever for our varsity football team. To me that is an ignorant reason to start fighting.

Also one of my opinions is that us as Americans are intrigued when we see a small fight break out. We hate to see killings but what leads to killings? Fights of course.

And on another note, Americans have been blaming this type of stuff on movies and music. But why are we the only ones doing it if its because of music and movies that are seen all over the world. For example, Marilyn Manson was blamed for the Columbine shootings, as was said in the movie. Then why werent The Beatles blamed for influencing Charles Manson. Its ridiculous.

So what do you guys think on this situation.[/size][/color]

[Godelsensei]

[COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New]First of all, I'd like to point out that those statistics only cover gun-related killings, which the US is notorious for being home to a very large number of.

You could blame it on Manifest Destiny, or the fact that the second point on the US Charter of Rights is that of the freedom to bear arms, but this wouldn't cover the fact that, in Switzerland, every one is required to undergo military training, yet the country has very little gun-related violence.

I think that, when you get down to it, it's just American culture. It's like Chinese people being nationalistic or Quebecois people being rude and self-absorbed (barring Wondershot, of course : P).

Americans love their guns.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]But, isn't there a significant difference between loving guns, and shooting people with them?

Anyway, as a side note, a more reliable representation of the facts would be using a proportional system. There is way more people in America. However, you can see that there'd still be a helluva lot more killing in America than anywhere else.

As for the reason why? Who knows. Every culture is different, and there must be some part of it that encourage violence, and these kind of methods of rebuttal.

Oh, and America is home of the infidels who will unfailingly shoot themselves in the foot. Or someone else's foot, at the very least.[/size]

[DeathBug]

First off, if your source is any work of Micheal Moore, you're in trouble.

Aside from the fact, as Baron pointed out, the figures are raw data with no thought of proportinality, there are other things to take into account.

Of the 4,000,000 guns supposedly in Canadia, how many are owned by private citizens? Of the 11,000 killings in the US, how many were by law enforcement officials in the pursuit of criminals? Because Germany has a militaristic background, does that mean the citizens of Germany embrace it, and are proud of it?

Moore films never give context; I don't know the answer to the first two questions at all.

Back to the point, I'm from a military background, and I don't know anyone who was personally involved in such violence. Granted, I think the case can easily be made that military officers are much less likely to act stupid and violent for no reason, because they more clearly understand the results of these actions and have a better degree of self-discipline; I like the Swiss model of mandatory conscription. But that's niether here nor there.

My point is, unless more reliable facts are brought forth, I'm not likely to jump on the bandwagon that says US citizens are a bunch of bloodthirsty crazies. Moore believes so because he's contemptuous of the average person, and hates the majority of American life, but I think we can get information from a far better source.

Godel: Manifest Destiny was the 18th century belief held by most Americans that the American boarder would eventually expand to the west coast simply as a matter of course. What does that have to do with current wiolence?

[Zeta]

Oh my. Death Bug is my new best friend.

I agree with him.

His movies have no context at all. He takes everything at face vaule, he doesn't actually do the research that is involved to convery points to the public.

Anyways. This is my theory. In this small town in Georgia near where I live, everyone is require to have a gun. They had their first major crime just last year, a murder I believe. I think everyone should have a gun. :-) Many are going to say "omg...with more guns there will just be more killings." But look at it this way. If you are planning on robbing a guy who you know has a gun required by law, are you really going to want to do it?

But yeah, other than that everything I was planning on saying was said by Death Bug. Good job man.

[Corey]

[quote name='DeathBug']Godel: Manifest Destiny was the 18th century belief held by most Americans that the American boarder would eventually expand to the west coast simply as a matter of course. What does that have to do with current violence?[/quote]

[size=1]Well a lot of people see the US's involvement in Iraq as merely an excuse to go and grab their oil. So in a way we're expanding our borders, not that it's a good thing mind you.

Michael Moore, dispite being a superb shock-film producer, is simply a person that wants to earn money. He does it well. His statistics are shocking. His movies are eye opening. But he misleads.
He's not the most reliable source.

American gun shooting. Why is it so high? I blame American materialism and the degeneration of common sence.[/size]

[Tigervx]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Teal]
Two Words.

Melting Pot.

America is probably the largest clash of cultures in the world. We have imigrants from every part of the globe in our country. People can't live peacefully, its a fact. In Canada, they're mostly all canadians, in Italy, they're mostly Italian. In Germany, they're mostly German. In the USA, we have Americans, Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, African, Mexican, Arabs, anything you can think of, we have it. Because of our clash or culture in our large nation, there is bound to be more conflict in our country then say Japan or England.


[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

To the above post: no, not really
For one thing, there's no such thing as "Canadians" [i]as opposed to[/i] "Americans" if you're talking culture. They're pretty mixed too.
Also, it's not like most gun deaths in the US are culture clashes. It's not blacks killing whites, whites killing blacks, mexicans killing irish, or anything along those lines (at least it's not that prevalent, relatively speaking).

I don't think I can come up with a very sound reason as to why America is so much more trigger-happy other than that people buy guns here for all the wrong reasons. There may be many privately owned guns in Canada, but I doubt their owners are looking forward to killing some crook with it like they are here. Or, even worse, buying guns to protect themselves from the government. I mean, how stupid can you get? Then there's the fact that the criminal population here is armed with firearms, as opposed to much of the criminal population (small-time, that is, not big organized crime stuff) in other countries.
Basically, people here buy guns with the intent of eventually shooting someone with them. It's true. And so many of them do.

[O-Ushi]

Personally, I would think to blame it on the American (slightly paranoid) "eye for an eye" idealology.

I generally don't except the idea of execution (which isn't bad, considering I live in England), and I feel that has a fair part in the slightly unbalanced nature of America towards violence. If you believe that killing is going to make a problem go away in the country's legal system (probably the most ingrained part of today's society in every country), you would be inclined to belive that it is true [I]outside[/I] the legal system.

Of course, it could be that the country's still young, and trying to sort out it's major problems (it took the UK 500 years, and we're much smaller).

But heck, I could be talking drivel. I haven;t been sleeping well lately.

That's it. I'm going back to bed.

Night (he says at 9:23 AM)

[Epitome]

[size=1][color=SeaGreen]I hear what your saying. But even if the facts are misleading and out of proportion, they are still true.

And about what O-Ushi said with execution... could that play a factor in the US having such a "bloodthirsty" background?

But I dont know... that must be just the way we are...[/size][/color]

[DeathBug]

[quote name='Corey][size=1']Well a lot of people see the US's involvement in Iraq as merely an excuse to go and grab their oil. [/quote]

A lot of people think pro wrestling is real, too. What's your point?

[QUOTE]Michael Moore, dispite being a superb shock-film producer, is simply a person that wants to earn money. He does it well. His statistics are shocking.[/QUOTE]

His statistics are raw data that lack any sort of context; they're only 'shocking' if you let him take you in.

If I say that I've been to Barnes & Nobles' an average of six times each week, you could draw a conclusion from that, probably thinking that I'm buying tons of books or lounging there reading magazines or something. If I tell you that I work at Barnes & Nobles', suddenly the data means something different. Context gives data meaning, and Moore never provides context.

[QUOTE] His movies are eye opening. But he misleads.
He's not the most reliable source.[/QUOTE]

He's not a reliable source at all, and all he opened my eyes to are how stupid some people are. He's clearly an over-hyped political pundit, but he works in a way that's different from columnists, TV talking heads, or radio guys like Limbaugh or Franken.

Most pundits 'spin'; they take the news story or event or statement and tell you how it reflects on their cause, for good or bad. The person following these comments always has the option to read the original material and draw their own conclusions.

Not so with Moore; as a film maker, he controls exactly what information the viewer recieves, and how it's presented. Then, in addition to that, he gives his spin of it. Documentary my arse.

[QUOTE]American gun shooting. Why is it so high? I blame American materialism and the degeneration of common sence.[/size][/QUOTE]

Are you going to provide any reasons why you think this?

[quote name='Sciros'] Or, even worse, buying guns to protect themselves from the government. I mean, how stupid can you get?[/quote]

Well...historically, the first thing dictatorships and such do when they come to power is disarm the citizens; it was one of Hitler's first acts as Chancellor of Germany. And you know what they say about not learning from history?

What I find highly ironic is that the people who honestly believe that President Bush's administration is trying to create some repressive Big Brother type government are also against private gun ownership. This has lead me to believe they are idiots.

[QUOTE]Basically, people here buy guns with the intent of eventually shooting someone with them. It's true. And so many of them do.[/QUOTE]

Then what intentions do people in other places have when they buy guns?

[quote name='O-Ushi']If you believe that killing is going to make a problem go away in the country's legal system (probably the most ingrained part of today's society in every country), you would be inclined to belive that it is true outside the legal system.[/quote]

First, that doesn't take into account violence in states that don't allow the death penalty.

Second, it's an apples and oranges comparison. I allow the government to tax my wages, but I wouldn't allow a private citizen to do so, and I sure wouldn't go anmd do it to someone else. There is a clear line between what people will allow the government to do, and what they allow other private citizens to do.

[quote name='Epitome']I hear what your saying. But even if the facts are misleading and out of proportion, they are still true.[/quote]

Well, you know, the Sun causes skin cancer; obviously, we'd be better off without it.

That fact was misleading and out of proportion, yet it was still true. Was the conclusion that came from it the right one?

[Epitome]

[size=1][color=SeaGreen]Your right. I definatley understand where you are coming from. He really doesnt use or have any context in his movies.

But you have to agree with me that there are MANY more deaths and killings in the US that are gun related than in any other country. But do any of us really know why this happends? No, and thats why Michael Moores film is so "shocking" and "eye opening" because he is really the only one who tried to go into the problem.[/size][/color]

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE=Epitome]
But you have to agree with me that there are MANY more deaths and killings in the US that are gun related than in any other country. [/QUOTE]

That's a statement with no context in itself. Proportiontly more deaths? More deaths persiod? More civilian deaths?

[QUOTE]But do any of us really know why this happends? No, and thats why Michael Moores film is so "shocking" and "eye opening" because he is really the only one who tried to go into the problem.[/QUOTE]

He didn't try to get inside the problem; he already had a theory on why it happened, and his whole movie was him trying to make the audience share his point of view.

Hundreds of social scientists and government groups study this problem; why not ask them about it, instead of listening to that fat blowhard exploliting a tradgedy?

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]The Canada to United Sates statistic is slightly misleading (although it helps to put things in perspective) because a) Americans outnumber Canadians ten to one, b) Americans have a much higher population density in urban areas where gun related incidents occur much more frequently, and c) the American statistic includes justifiable homicide by police officers and property owners. Still, even with an evening out of statistics America has an overwhelming amount of gun related deaths compared to Canada (and so many other countries).

The problem isn't gun ownership. For years Waco Texas had the highest gun ownership ratio out of anywhere in the US (there were approximatly four guns per legal adult, and one hand gun per legal adult) yet they had virtually no gun related crime until the Branch Dividian fiasco (which in retrospect meant that they still had no gun related crime, heh).

There is and always will be a direct correlation between organized crime and gun related homicides in the US. Gangs and gang violence account for the overwhelming majority of gun related homicides and robberies. Therefor, I would say that it isn't the government's fault, it isn't the media's fault, it is a fault of our urban society as a whole. [/color]

[Epitome]

[quote name='DeathBug']Hundreds of social scientists and government groups study this problem; why not ask them about it, instead of listening to that fat blowhard exploliting a tradgedy?[/quote]

[size=1][color=SeaGreen]I think that might be a little harsh calling him that... lol.

But you definatley have strong pioints. And I am really starting to agree with you that Michael Moore really isnt a strong source to be using. Actually, hes not really a source at all. So Ill do some research and get back to you.[/color][/size]

[Corey]

[size=1][quote name='DeathBug']What's your point?[/quote]
Well, I'm rather curious about why you tore apart a post that basically agreed with you... But to each their own.
My point? Manifest Destiny may be an older term, but the ideal is still very alive today. I'm sure if the opportunity presented itself, the US would gladly scoop up a few more pieces of land outside of the continental US, probably by force.
[quote name='DeathBug']His statistics are raw data that lack any sort of context; they're only 'shocking' if you let him take you in. Context gives data meaning, and Moore never provides context.[/quote]
Which is exactly what most of the public did when they saw the movie. They did take in the staistics without context. He did it [b]to make money[/b], and he did it well. Maybe I'm not making myself clear...
[quote name='DeathBug']He's not a reliable source at all, and all he opened my eyes to are how stupid some people are.[/quote]
If he wasn't a reliable souce at all, he be presenting false information instead of correct informatin out of context. Stupid people is another thing the US is famous for.
[quote=DeathBug]The person following these comments always has the option to read the original material and draw their own conclusions.
Not so with Moore; as a film maker, he controls exactly what information the viewer recieves, and how it's presented. Then, in addition to that, he gives his spin of it.[/quote]
Sounds to me like nothing more than simple American Materialism. In order to make his money, Moore shocked people. I believe there are more important things in life than money, but to many that's not the case. Moore cares more for selling a copy of [u]Bowling For Columbine[/u] than for showing contexual information.
[quote name='Corey']I blame American materialism and the degeneration of common sence.[/quote]
American Materialism- Most of the country is pursuing money which can be used to purchase a comfy lifestyle when the smart people only want a house and family. Those that take comfort to the excess are materialistic. Why is it that most of the shootings in the city are robbery related? People want a little easy money without having to work for it so they can go and buy a new pair of pants or a shirt. It's sad that someone has such disregard for life to kill someone for a few bucks.
Common Sence- See above. If everyone had common sence on a normal level, stupid **** like that wouldn't happen.[/size]

[Circ]

[quote name='Godelsensei][COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New]Quebecois people being rude and self-absorbed (barring Wondershot, of course : P).[/FONT'][/COLOR][/quote]

You know, I think I resent that, especially as this is a fairly standard stereotype of the average American form the point of view of many people (and not just in Quebec).

:(

[Godelsensei]

[quote name='Tigervx][FONT=Arial][COLOR=Teal]In Canada, they're mostly all Canadians...[/COLOR'][/FONT][/quote]
[COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New]
Eh? O.o

Are you implying that the majority of Canadian citizens are of Aboriginal background? Because the opposite is true.
Unless you're suggesting that most people here are from either French or British descent, which isn't true either, unless you go to Quebec. (Btw, my comments about Quebecois people were obviously meant to be a joke, though I did find many people quite rude upon my last visit to said province...>_>)

I think what most people don't take into consideration with Michael Moore's films and books is that they are constantly receiving the exact opposite ultra-biased point-of-view, as long as they live in the States, whether they realize it or not.

Also, I do believe that there are seven million guns in Canada, not four million, but I may be wrong.
I know lots of people who hunt for sport (whether or not they actually hit anything, is another story, of course...), and it's not unusual for some one to keep a rifle in their home, especially if they live anywhere north of Kingston.

America is also a country that's constantly involved in wars, leading to violence on that scale being emphasized by the news and presidential candidates, if an election is drawing nigh.

However, European countries have had their more-than-fair share of wars over the years, so that point doesn't really seem to have the bearing one would expect it to.

None of us here seem to be able to figure out what it is, but there is something engrained in the American psyche resulting in far too many senseless gun-related deaths.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[James]

[color=#707875]I think that the guns issue is the most important thing in terms of physical issues. But I think the bigger problem is the absolutely [i]insane[/i] scapegoating of media and the often-ridiculous education system. The sooner kids can take responsibility and not be handled with kid gloves -- at least on a mental level -- the better. I really feel that the problem lies more with parents and families than within the realm of geopolitics.

America is not necessarily involved in more wars, either; there are many wars that you (meaning, those of you who are American), simply don't hear about. I'm willing to bet that none (or practically none) of you heard about the East Timor atrocities during 1999, for example.

America's wars are simply more visible, which is reasonable enough, given that America is the sole superpower on Earth and therefore, is often drawn into such matters (out of its own interest, but primarily out of geopolitical interest).[/color]

[Epitome]

[QUOTE=Godelsensei][COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New]
None of us here seem to be able to figure out what it is, but there is something engrained in the American psyche resulting in far too many senseless gun-related deaths.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=SeaGreen]That seems like the only logical answer. I guess we as Americans just have that in our "psyche" as Godel said. It would appear that we are just like that...[/size][/color]

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE=Corey][size=1]
Well, I'm rather curious about why you tore apart a post that basically agreed with you... But to each their own.[/QUOTE]

Because I don't agree with many of the points you made in doing so.


[QUOTE]My point? Manifest Destiny may be an older term, but the ideal is still very alive today. I'm sure if the opportunity presented itself, the US would gladly scoop up a few more pieces of land outside of the continental US, probably by force. [/QUOTE]

Well, considering that the opportunity is ever-present, and no one's tried it yet, I'd say you're wrong.

After all, the nation was politically divided simply because some incorrectly interpretted actions in Iraq as imperialist. Most of the nation would reject conquest, myself included.


[QUOTE]If he wasn't a reliable souce at all, he be presenting false information instead of correct informatin out of context. Stupid people is another thing the US is famous for.[/QUOTE]

I would argue that information taken out of context is just as bad as false information, because both lead to taking actions inappropriate to the situation.

And, on a side note, survies have proven that people in Europe and Canadia are just as stupid as Americans.
[QUOTE] Moore cares more for selling a copy of [u]Bowling For Columbine[/u] than for showing contexual information.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, although Moore also wants people to share his worldview.

[QUOTE]American Materialism- Most of the country is pursuing money which can be used to purchase a comfy lifestyle when the smart people only want a house and family. [/QUOTE]

Except that people with families want their families to be comfortable. Besides, the allure of money isn't only confort; it's security. People desire security, after all; wouldn't you like to know that if you were a family man and your child was in an accident, you could afford to give them the best treatment availible, without the risk of loosing your home?

[QUOTE]Those that take comfort to the excess are materialistic.[/QUOTE]

No, because confort is a feeling, and materialism is an obsession with owning things. There aren't that many people who take comfort simply in knowing "I have a Lexus."

[QUOTE]Why is it that most of the shootings in the city are robbery related?[/QUOTE]

Are they?

[QUOTE]
Common Sence- See above. If everyone had common sence on a normal level, stupid **** like that wouldn't happen.[/QUOTE]

Except what you're talking about isn't common sense; it's values. If a person doesn't think a human life has any value, but a DVD player does, then common sense sees no problem in them killing for it.

It's reprehensible, but the point is, common sense isn't the problem here.

[quote name='Epitome']That seems like the only logical answer. I guess we as Americans just have that in our "psyche" as Godel said. It would appear that we are just like that...[/quote]

No offense intended, but I don't believe that "Just because" is the right answer to any question.

I'm very inclined to agree with James' statements regarding families and responsibility. Truthfully, I hadn't stated that because it was a belief based not on data but on personal experience, and I'd just torn Moore apart for not providing facts.

[James]

[color=#707875]What I was saying really reflected Moore's own line of thinking in regard to Bowling for Columbine.

Moore's big mistake is that he started going after guns, and then took a sharp turn and went after "society at large", with specific reference to the media.

The latter is fine (the American media is very guilty of fostering a lot of this so-called "violent attitude"), but the former should also be focused on.

However, beyond that, I really think it comes down to parents and families.

If your son shoots up his school, [i]don't blame Doom[/i]. As soon as you do that, you totally invalidate your opinion in my book. lol

Funnily enough, in the case of the guys who killed their classmates at Columbine, they were apparently taking ADHD medication or something. And there have been very minimal reports that the medication they were taking had been widely reported to have various psychological side-effects.

But of course, it plays better to say "Doom makes kids crazy" than "Get your damn kids off the pills that might be harming them."

I mean, I'm not saying that the medication did it...but the immediate willingness to put blinkers on and blame media (without even [i]considering[/i] other factors) is insane. Life is not that simple.[/color]

[Epitome]

[QUOTE=DeathBug]
No offense intended, but I don't believe that "Just because" is the right answer to any question.[/QUOTE]

[size=1][color=SeaGreen]But thats the point. There really is no logical explanation, so this seems like its the only logical one...

[quote name='James']America's wars are simply more visible, which is reasonable enough, given that America is the sole superpower on Earth and therefore, is often drawn into such matters (out of its own interest, but primarily out of geopolitical interest).[/quote]

That in fact does make sense though. But there are others who are presented with similar things. Like I said before, there are definatley films and such things that are shown all over the world that dont necessarily promote violence but definatley show alot of it.

But those facts once again came from Michael Moore...[/size][/color]

[James]

[QUOTE=Epitome][size=1][color=SeaGreen] But there are others who are presented with similar things. Like I said before, there are definatley films and such things that are shown all over the world that dont necessarily promote violence but definatley show alot of it.

But those facts once again came from Michael Moore...[/size][/color][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]You hit the nail on the head.

The rest of the world receives the same kind of visual imagery when it comes to violence in movies, games and so on. Yet this phenomenon, for lack of a better word, doesn't exist elsewhere.

So I think we can conclude that media (as in, entertainment media) has very little, or nothing to do with it.

News media is somewhat different, because news media is capable of being very biased and influencing lay opinion. We see the results of that a [i]lot[/i] here at OtakuBoards. I think that such media takes advantage of the fact that many individuals, particularly young people, do not seek out multiple forms of news media. So if they're only hearing things from one or two sources in the same camp, they'll come away with a somewhat unrealistic viewpoint.

That doesn't relate directly to violence, but it does indirectly relate, particularly when you're talking about coverage of violent acts (like what I mentioned about the medication and the complete lack of focus on that).[/color]

[Epitome]

[quote name='James][color=#707875']So I think we can conclude that media (as in, entertainment media) has very little, or nothing to do with it.[/color][/quote]

[size=1][color=SeaGreen]Yeah, I guess your right. But the thing I still have yet to understand is then why was Marilyn Manson blamed for the Columbine shootings...

Thats like saying that The Beatles should be held accountable for Charles Manson's actions...

And a little off topic: They arent related are they?[/size][/color]