Star Wars 411

[Dragon Warrior]

I answer your questions Boba, I won't look at any spoilers. I didn't for the other episodes so I'm not going to for this one. Spoilers just ruin everything =/

And I plan on meeting up with my friend Zach who I rarely see anymore because he goes to another school (I haven't seen him in months, actually). We're both gonna go at the midnight one when it opens... it's gonna rock! We're both good star wars fans and use to play jedi knights when we were wee lads (not a video game, ya know, act it out and shiz). Those were the days...

Did anyone else play star wars when they were little or were Zach and I just too obsessed back then?

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]Well? when I was in third grade?

I remember running around at recess playing star wars with various members of my class. I think that was around the time of the release of the Special Edition's release. Looking back on it, the whole thing seems rather silly with all of us running around proclaiming ourselves to be Darth Vader, etc. and flying around in the Deathstar. I'm sure it was much less laughable at the time. ;)

In seventh grade, Ben and I used to verbally duel, or something to that effect. He'd say he attacked me with something Digimon related and I'd counter with something Science Fiction related (Usually Star Wars related). I was such a goof back in middle school?

So yeah, you're not alone DW.[/color]

[Ben]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']In seventh grade, Ben and I used to verbally duel, or something to that effect. He'd say he attacked me with something Digimon related and I'd counter with something Science Fiction related (Usually Star Wars related). I was such a goof back in middle school?[/color][/quote]

Hey, [I]hey[/I], it wasn't always Digimon related. Occasionally I'd get some insight from some other Fox Kids or KidsWB shows. :rolleyes:

I remember that quite often it ended in a stalemate, as you would always leave for the bus before I could finish kicking your sorry butt. =P

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]I never took the bus? :shifty:

In any case, I had no idea what most of the things you brought up were in any more than a general sense anyway. So it doesn?t surprise me that you brought in other semi-related material at times. Then again, you probably didn?t know much/anything about the various Star Wars weapons and ships I brought up earlier.

Just thinking about the whole situation makes me laugh now.

In other news, there's a new [URL=www.starwarsgalaxies.com]SWG[/URL] SWG expansion that's coming out this Fall. So if anyone's going to buy it and/or the game itself, you should play on Kettemoor. PT was playing there a little while ago and I'm on pretty regularly. The game's actually much better than people are making it out to be, especially since they reintroduced NPC weapons.

? just in case anyone cares.[/color]

[Dragon Warrior]

I still remember a lot of the action we had with the jedi knights game. Zach was named Zakara or something and I was Red XII (no relation to the current FF character Red XIII). You know the pole-volting pads on school track fields? Well, Zach's house was uber close to the high school so we'd fight the bad guys atop the pole-volting pad. It was a blast. Zach's arch nemesis was Sid and mine was Raven. Before fighting atop the pole-volting matress (which we proclaimed to be a floating platform over oblivion), we both killed Sid and Raven, but they returned as a combined force called Saven. We then killed Saven over oblivion by knocking him in.

Oddly enough he returned part robot and newly named Robo Saven. Our last match against him was in Doom City, which took place in Zach's backyard, I believe. That was our last jedi adventure. I miss Zach and those days :(

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Oh yeah I revive the thread and then go away for a few days and suddenly everyone is back to post, only kidding I'm glad to see this hasn't died yet.

Yeah I remember playing Star Wars pretty clearly, my brother and I used to buy those plastic swords in shops, David would always buy red and I'd buy green (since they had no blue ones). My brother has some fascination with the Dark Side, similar to my constant affiliation with the Light Side of the Force, if memory serves his anger would often let him beat me (than and he had a nasty temper back then). Good wholesome fun than often ended in my shouted "OK I give, I give", later we moved on to Star Wars console games and he still beats me most of the time on [B]Jedi Outcast[/B] but it's still good fun.

Maybe I'm the only one here but I think the Episode III title [spoiler][B]Revenge of the Sith[/B][/spoiler] is really weak, I mean I know it's about the [spoiler]revenge of the Sith[/spoiler] but some on there has to be a better title than that. Incidentally I learned that [B]Return of the Jedi [/B] was originally to be called Revenge of the Jedi but Lucas decided that "Return" sounded (and fitted in terms of the Jedi) far better than the term "Revenge".

Even though it's not out until 2005 I'm eagerly awaiting the Lightsaber duel between [spoiler]A Dark Side seduced Anakin and Obi-Wan[/spoiler], it's meant to be absolutely brilliant and if it's as good as the Dooku/Yoda fight I'll be quite satisfied. Anyone else have further thoughts ?[/SIZE]

[Dragon Warrior]

Revive? Nooo... this thing has been posted in, but just in long time intervals XD Boba's hardly on anymore so he and myself are the only ones who post anymore really and then again, it takes time.

I think when playing jedi knights, my character turned evil under the control of Saven one time and I had to fight Zach. Not sure, though.

I'm sure [spoiler]the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan will be fantastic, but it's pretty obvious that Anakin isn't going to turn good and Obi isn't going to die XD Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing what happens to everyone's lives when Anakin becomes a big meanie head :<[/spoiler]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Alright we'll say then it had an extended nap then and besides it seems as if Boba is making a comeback, which would be most welcome.

[spoiler]The fight scene between Obi-Wan and Anakin is meant to be one of the highlights of Ep. III though there is one little things that bothers me. If Anakin becomes Sidious's apprentice he's obviously going to kill Dooku or Dooku will be killed in the course of the film. However when in Ep. II Anakin was fighting Dooku he did a far better job than Obi-Wan (except of course for the whole "I'll out-stretch my arms so you can cut one off).

But then in Ep. III when he fights Obi-Wan he gets absolutely thrashed (which is why he needs all those cybernetic implants to keep him alive in Eps. IV, V, VI). I mean I know that Obi-Wan is a master of the Lightsaber but it just seems odd that he should be so easily able to beat Anakin in a duel. Still I can't wait to see it.[/spoiler][/SIZE]

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]Actually it's Anakin who's turning to the good side (Which was erroneously labeled the "Dark" side by that rebel sympathizer George Lucas) and Obi-Wan who remains on the bad (Oddly labeled the "Light" side).

There'll be more on that later.

And yeah, I'm not too thrilled with the title either. There were a bunch of others being floated around, and most of them blow the current title out of the water. Not like Lucas will change it though, [URL=http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/escape_tatooine]his ego is bigger than his head.[/URL][/color]

[Dragon Warrior]

Does the title really matter? Sure it sounds gay because you'll look at all the other titles and say they're all cheese-bally, but I say we should be thinking of the movie more than the title. It's a sad day on Earth when people start complaining about the movie's title :P

[spoiler]Curious, Kane. Curious :3 We'll see if Obi Wan can get ghetto enough ^_^[/spoiler]

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]Title matters a great deal when you're trying to promote a movie. Nobody's going to want to go see a movie called "Bob the Jedi's Nap". A film's title, promotionally, is extremely important. That being said, brilliant content can make up for a lackluster title without too much problem. If the first two prequels are any indication, this movie will need at least a decent title to help bolster sub-par content.

It'll be interesting to see if this movie returns to the quality that we saw with the original trilogy, instead of the mediocre prequels that have been plagued by laughable dialogue and characters that can only be described as stomach churning mind-boggling disasters.

Star Wars may very well be remembered by many based on what they see in this last movie. Hopefully people will remember this film as a stellar ending to a brilliant series, instead of a dying gasp from a storyline that's already milked for all it's worth.

[spoiler]And with regard to what Kane said about Anakin getting thrashed by Obi-Wan, which seems improbable based on the extent to which we see Anakin's force powers rising in Episode II? Maybe it's not a fair fight.

Perhaps Anakin kills Jar Jar after almost beating Obi-Wan and then is corroded near to death by Gungan stomach acid?[/spoiler][/color]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green][spoiler]And with regard to what Kane said about Anakin getting thrashed by Obi-Wan, which seems improbable based on the extent to which we see Anakin's force powers rising in Episode II… Maybe it's not a fair fight.[/spoiler'][/color][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Well I'm just going by what I've read in his Biography in StarWars.com Dave, perhaps it's not a fair fight or perhaps Anakin is so convinced of his superiority to Obi-Wan that it leads to his downfall. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green][spoiler]Perhaps Anakin kills Jar Jar after almost beating Obi-Wan and then is corroded near to death by Gungan stomach acid…[/spoiler'][/color][/quote]
[SIZE=1]We'd be lucky to see the demise of that clumsy, stupid wretch though more than likely he'll stay on as a Senator or get killed by his own people for being such in idiot.[/SIZE]

[Brasil]

Since we're talking about Jar-Jar a bit...

(taken from my MyO)

Queen Amidala is the precise cause of the fall of the Old Republic. Through her lack of leadership ability, her reluctance to take appropriate action where and when appropriate action is needed, and her general malaise and inability to appoint and surround herself with able-bodied and competent individuals that will enable her to lead the Old Republic into an age of golden prosperity, Amidala dooms the Old Republic, and guarantees its collapse and eventual transformation into a dictatorial and authoritarian organization that is better known as The Imperial Empire.

---

The story, the core story, is still very interesting. By "core story" I don't mean any of the superficial character development, or actual plot progression in terms of scenes. When I say "core story," I mean what has happened, what will happen, and how it all fits into the bigger picture.

While the entire execution of the Prequels is really quite atrocious, even the CG, I don't think Lucas can be faulted for the story itself.

The Star Wars Saga is about point of view. I only recently realized that. What "Obi-Wan" (quotes for a reason, heh) says in Return of the Jedi is the precise idea of the Saga: everything is told from a certain point of view. This is what the Saga is. Everything we are shown is always shown from a certain point of view.

When we keep this in mind when watching the Prequels, we realize that Luke, Leia, Han, and the Rebellion are really just playing sides. You could consider them to be exercising "the lesser of the two evils." Why is this?

The core story of the Prequels. It can be argued with a reasonable level of certainty that the attitude demonstrated by Amidala, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, etc, are the attitudes of the Rebellion.

But who are Amidala, Obi-Wan, etc, fighting against? Who are they fighting for?

They're fighting for the Old Republic, because they believe the Trade Federation/Separatist Army to be the greater threat. Hell, they don't view the Old Republic as any malicious force, really, just as a cumbersome governing body.

But what is revealed to us? Rather, what do we know about the future, based on the Original Trilogy? The Old Republic will be transformed into The Empire, and the "Rebellion" of the Prequels will become the Rebellion in the OT.

Amidala's efforts are a lost cause--a misguided cause, because she thinks she is fighting the "right" enemy, but instead lets Palpatine, whom she believes to be her ally, take over during Emergency Rule. True, Amidala may not realize that Jar-Jar is an idiot, but that doesn't matter, really, because by appointing someone who has no idea how to run things, she is now an incompetent ruler.

Amidala appoints Jar-Jar because she's playing favorites, which is not unlike a few current leaders.

Star Wars has a bit more political commentary than one may think, huh?

[natetron46]

I see what you are saying. It is kind of her fault, but you cant really blame anyone. Palpatine was such a snake in the grass, everyone trusted him, he hid his agenda really well. I dont think anyone can be held responsible for what a genius manipulated them to do. If you look at it Palpatines assent is much like Hitler's.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='natetron46']It is kind of her fault, but you cant really blame anyone.[/quote]

[color=green]Queen Amidala, after witnessing firsthand how utterly devoid of anything resembling intelligent thought, much less common sense or even acceptable grammar, appointed a completely unknown Gungan to a crucial position within the Galactic Senate.

Her poor choice, as Siren noted, was due to her ?playing favorites?. However, I think that the reunification process that began after the repulsion of the Trade Federation attack on Naboo between the Gungans and the Humans of that planet also played a major role in that decision. By appointing Jar Jar, Amidala could appear to be sharing power, but in actuality her Gungan co-ruler was nothing more than a pathetic yes-man.

In the end, Amidala?s political and personal mistake in appointing Jar Jar not only betrays her fall into the privileged culture of the ineffective galactic senate. Therefore, she is just as much to blame for the fall of the Old Republic as anyone else.

Add to this blunder the fact that her appointee is duped into starting the vote to strip from the citizens of the galaxy many of their dearest rights (Voting to give the Chancellor emergency powers), and Amidala now bears a great deal of responsibility for the rise of the Empire.[/color]

[quote name='natetron46']Palpatine was such a snake in the grass, everyone trusted him, he hid his agenda really well.[/quote]

[color=green]While Palpitine may have been adept at hiding, to some degree, his political aspirations, I don?t think that everyone trusted him. The short, green, male member of the Jedi council certainly had his doubts. When Yoda talks to Palpitine in Episode II, there?s much more underlying tension than in Episode I. Suspicions are growing at this point, and everyone in the galaxy knows Palpitine is holding onto power for longer than he should.

And seriously, the way he delivered that ?I love the Republic? line near the end of Episode II after receiving emergency powers...

You?d have to be deaf not to sense the lack of enthusiasm for those words.[/color]

[quote name='natetron46']I dont think anyone can be held responsible for what a genius manipulated them to do.[/quote]

[color=green]I certainly hope that basic human instincts don?t go out the window when someone smarter than you, even if he/she has significant influence over you, tells you to do something deeply immoral. On some level, you [i]know[/i] what you are doing is wrong.

If you know something you are about to do is wrong, and do it anyway, you should be held responsible for committing that act.[/color]

[quote name='natetron46']If you look at it Palpatines assent is much like Hitler's.[/quote]

[color=green]This I agree with; there are also many parallel that can be drawn from what happened under their reigns.[/color]

[Brasil]

I think Boba has summed up quite well the conclusion regarding Amidala's incompetence, so I'm going to concentrate on the comparison between Palpatine and Hitler.

On the surface, the comparison seems nearly rock-solid.

The Empire is a militaristic, rigid, structured organization that is seemingly obsessed with keeping systems in-line. Any attempt at insurrection is crushed, quite brutally. They demand order and unwavering allegiance to The Empire. Simple mistakes have serious consequences, and if one is to survive in The Empire, one needs to shut his mouth.

It rises out of chaos; Palpatine re-invigorates a crumbled and feeble economic and political climate, spurning on unprecedented growth.

This is not unlike the Nazis and Hitler. In fact, it's quite similar, to the point of being an allegory.

When we talk about Stormtroopers, the grunt soldiers of The Empire, and the grunt soldiers of the Nazis, the case seems air-tight. The Empire [i]is[/i] the Nazi party.

But, not quite.

We know that the Clone Army will obviously become the Stormtroopers, and the transports/ships in the last few shots of Palpatine on the balcony are clearly early Star Destroyers. We can tell from their triangular shape, and the three boosters on the backs. With The Imperial March in the soundtrack over the scene, it's frighteningly clear what is going to happen.

For argument's sake, for the Saga in general, let's just say that the Clone Army are in fact Stormtroopers. They are. Even in the Prequels, it's so obvious they are going to become Stormtroopers, we might as well consider them to be Stormtroopers.

If Stormtroopers were the "Infantry" of the Nazis, what does that make the Old Republic? To put so fine a point on it, that turns the Old Republic into the Nazis.

If we aren't prepared to say that by only Stormtroopers, than let's look at Hitler's S.S.

The S.S. were Hilter's elite guard. They were his bodyguards, more or less. Probably one of the most secretive groups in the war, they operated on a level of security and privacy unheard of in the common population. All the citizens knew was that the S.S. was very real. Apart from that, it's safe to say they knew nothing. The S.S. were also very specifically breeded. For an officer to wed, he had to apply, go through an evaluation process. His Intended had to be thoroughly evaluated. The S.S. were breeded, basically. They were a blood-line.

What does this have to do with the Old Republic?

Let's re-cap what we've learned about the Jedi Lineage:

Incredibly secretive group of the most trusted advisors, bodyguards, and elite warriors in the Republic, serving royalty nearly 99% of the time.

The Jedi's role of Bodyguard can be seen throughout the Prequels, as Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin are continually assigned to babysit Amidala.

In the Original Trilogy, we are told that a Jedi's power comes from a connection to the Force. Force Sensitivity is more mystical than anything else. What do the Prequels tell us? Force Sensitivity, and thus, whether one will become a member of the Jedi Order (Jedi Lineage) is heavily dependent on midi-chlorians, a symbiotic organism found in a person's [i]bloodstream[/i].

The Jedi Order is no different than Hitler's S.S.

So, I don't think a simple comparison between Palpatine and Hitler is in order, because if we were to indict Palpatine based on those grounds, then we really should indict the entire Old Republic, and especially Amidala. She just looks worse and worse now, doesn't she? lol

This brings me back to the idea that there is no good or bad in Star Wars, because when you examine the good "from a certain point of view," they're ridiculously absurd and inept and removed from any rational thought, and when you examine the bad "from a certain point of view," they're not all that bad. The good side in fact seems much worse.

[James]

[color=#707875]There's a massive problem with what you just described, Alex. And I think it's why people are tending to over-analyze the whole "good/bad" aspect of this franchise.

You've just finished pointing out the numerous points of similarity between the Nazis and the Empire. But to then suggest that the Old Republic is more like the Empire simply because of the Jedis' secretive behavior...that just doesn't work. lol

I mean, sure, you've found something that is similar between the two. One thing. But it should be obvious to anyone that the Empire/Nazi comparison is far more sound (and deliberate).

In my view, the problem with the "what's good and bad" debate is twofold. One, it ignores George Lucas' own intention. He obviously intended for the Empire to represent evil and for the Rebellion to represent good.

How do we know that? Apart from the sheer obviousness present in the characters' dialogue, we also know because of the filming techniques used throughout the film. At nearly every second, the movie clearly portrays the Empire as evil and the Rebellion as good.

For argument's sake, you could say that if Star Wars were real, this line would be significantly blurred (if you were living in the Empire you might view the Rebels as terrorists, but if you were a Rebel you might view the Empire as an oppressive regime that needs to be removed).

But Star Wars isn't real. It's a story.

And fundamentally, it's a "good versus evil" story. That is the dynamic that underlies the entire franchise. And it's the very intentional dynamic that George Lucas has set up.

So, while I think it's reasonable to make these comments about Star Wars if it were real...it's entirely different to suggest that these lines are so blurred in the films, when they really aren't. The films go to great lengths to underline who is good and who is bad (with some twists, where we think someone is good and then find out that they're bad).

It reminds me of Kill Bill. You and I were discussing the good/bad aspect of it, and how The Bride isn't really "good" -- she is, afterall, a murderer.

But that misses the point completely. It's a story. Both in terms of premise and as a matter of filming technique, the audience is clearly put on her side. We follow her story and we are guided to a point where we sympathize with her and where we want her to succeed. The entire movie revolves around the idea that The Bride has a justification for what she's doing.

I think this is something to think about. Film maker's intent is really important -- particularly when you're actually talking about what film techniques are used and the messages they convey. If Star Wars were sending an ambiguous message regarding "good and bad", the film wouldn't use so many unambiguous visual and aural techniques.[/color]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Siren']If Stormtroopers were the "Infantry" of the Nazis, what does that make the Old Republic? To put so fine a point on it, that turns the Old Republic into the Nazis.[/quote]

[color=green]I don't agree. This was a pivotal point in galactic history, when a democracy that'd flourished for millennia was slowly being crushed to death by it's own weight. Any chance of reversing this crumbling of establishment was eliminated when Palpatine entered the picture. He, like Hitler, was able to skillfully convince a democracy to hand over all it's power to him. I'd liken it more to the Weimar Republic. The Old Republic was a government on the verge of collapse; and Palpatine was it's Hitler.[/color]

[QUOTE=Siren]The S.S. were Hilter's elite guard. They were his bodyguards, more or less. Probably one of the most secretive groups in the war, they operated on a level of security and privacy unheard of in the common population. All the citizens knew was that the S.S. was very real. Apart from that, it's safe to say they knew nothing. The S.S. were also very specifically breeded. For an officer to wed, he had to apply, go through an evaluation process. His Intended had to be thoroughly evaluated. The S.S. were breeded, basically. They were a blood-line.

What does this have to do with the Old Republic?

Let's re-cap what we've learned about the Jedi Lineage:

Incredibly secretive group of the most trusted advisors, bodyguards, and elite warriors in the Republic, serving royalty nearly 99% of the time.

The Jedi's role of Bodyguard can be seen throughout the Prequels, as Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin are continually assigned to babysit Amidala.

In the Original Trilogy, we are told that a Jedi's power comes from a connection to the Force. Force Sensitivity is more mystical than anything else. What do the Prequels tell us? Force Sensitivity, and thus, whether one will become a member of the Jedi Order (Jedi Lineage) is heavily dependent on midi-chlorians, a symbiotic organism found in a person's [i]bloodstream[/i].

The Jedi Order is no different than Hitler's S.S.[/QUOTE]

[color=green]While there are some parallels here, I think there's a fundamental difference between these two organizations that you failed to mention.

The Jedi exist to serve the people of the Republic. For as long as the Republic has existed they were guardians of peace and justice. Jedi healed the sick and diffused potential conflicts throughout the galaxy. They were a force of good in the galaxy.

The S.S. were created to blindly obey orders for Hitler, and to propagate his Arian fantasies.

The Jedi never blindly follow orders, and do what they think is right. Just because the main Jedi characters in the prequels spend a large portion of their time working as bodyguards for Republic officials, doesn't immediately open them up to comparisons with the S.S.

The S.S. guarded Hitler and other top tier Nazi officials because it was their purpose to do so.

The Jedi guarded Amidala to make sure that she wouldn?t come to harm at the hands of terrorists who were trying to kill her, and stop her from voting with the Bail Organa block in the senate.

The other ten or so thousand Jedi in the galaxy, especially in Episode I, were working to help citizens of the Republic. They were skilled healers, teachers and protectors of those unable to protect themselves.

The Jedi and the S.S. may appear similar, anyone can manipulate the facts to come to any conclusion, but they are fundamentally different. The Jedi are good; the S.S. are evil.[/color]

[quote name='Siren']This brings me back to the idea that there is no good or bad in Star Wars, because when you examine the good "from a certain point of view," they're ridiculously absurd and inept and removed from any rational thought, and when you examine the bad "from a certain point of view," they're not all that bad. The good side in fact seems much worse.[/quote]

[QUOTE=James]For argument's sake, you could say that if Star Wars were real, this line would be significantly blurred (if you were living in the Empire you might view the Rebels as terrorists, but if you were a Rebel you might view the Empire as an oppressive regime that needs to be removed).

But Star Wars isn't real. It's a story.[/QUOTE]

[color=green]Exactly.[/color]

[Brasil]

I do like all that's been said here, but I think we must keep in mind one thing when we're talking about how the Rebellion is so clearly the "Good" and The Empire so clearly the "Bad." Much like how James brought in Kill Bill, I think Final Fantasy VII is a rather good supplement to this discussion regarding perspective and Good/Evil.

I've spoken about FFVII in the past with a few people, and it's remarkable at how sympathetic Avalanche seems. Why are they sympathetic, though? We are forced onto Avalanche's side. Throughout the game, we are constantly bombarded with Shin-Ra's utter lack of respect for the planet and Midgar's citizens, and Avalanche is continually portrayed as defending the rights of all, by targeting Shin-Ra and blowing up reactors and such. In many respects, Avalanche is just a bunch of terrorists...eco-terrorists, if you will.

But why do we seemingly ignore (or possibly not realize) the fact that Avalanche is nothing more than a group of anarchists? Because we're looking at the story from their point of view. This has bearing on a discussion about Star Wars, I think.

It is said that throughout Star Wars, the Rebellion is portrayed as the "Good guys." James mentioned the "sheer obviousness present in the characters' dialogue," and also aspects of the cinematography and so forth. I doubt one can argue with the Rebellion being portrayed as good, and The Empire being portrayed as evil, but one key point to keep in mind is that we aren't seeing things from The Empire's point of view.

We view Star Wars as Leia views it: the struggles of a small, motley, rag-tag group of freedom fighters acting defiantly in the face of their dominant and self-righteous ("Tarkin, only you could be so bold.") oppressors.

When you think about it, the Saga [i]is[/i] told "from a certain point of view"--the Rebellion's. Of course they're going to be the good guys, and of course their enemy will be the bad guy.

Does this mean the Rebellion is the end-all, be-all, last bastion of hope for humanity? I don't think so. All it means is we're seeing the Galactic Civil War from one certain point of view.

I think it'd be very, very interesting to see the Star Wars Saga told from The Empire's POV, honestly.

[James]

[color=#707875]You're right, Alex...but remember that we [i]are[/i] talking about a film. We're talking about a very specific kind of cinematic technique and story. The Rebellion [i]are[/i] good and the Empire [i]is[/i] evil, even based on more objective standards. I mean, all you have to do is look at the internal structure of the Empire (and the way that Darth Vader treats his underlings), as compared to how the Rebellion operates.

So yeah. My only argument is that the movie very deliberately sets up who is good and evil. Therefore, on that basis, I don't buy any of the arguments that try to suggest that the Empire is actually [i]good[/i]. Again, maybe if Star Wars were real, that point would be up for debate.

In regard to Final Fantasy VII...to some degree I think you're right. But also, saying that Avalanche are "just a bunch of anarchists" dramatically simplifies what they're all about.

As we go through the story, we discover the way in which Shinra is not only destroying the planet, but also destroying their very lives; just look at the Mayor of Midgar, who is essentially just a Shinra puppet. And the way that security in Midgar is so tightly controlled, in an effort to keep a grip on things.

I think that when Cloud first enters Avalanche, he doesn't care about their plight at all; he's just a mercenary for hire. But he soon discovers that these people have real and legitimate concerns about their future. And those concerns are fundamentally what drives them to do what they do.

In the same way, you could say that the Rebellion is "just a bunch of anarchists". But their motivation and reasoning is something that can't be ignored.[/color]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]I agree with James here, even if we were to see Star Wars from The Empire's point of view I highly doubt that our opinions would change, yes it is a film and yes it is set at a slant but not slanted enough to justify The Empire's acts of genocide. Going strictly by the films we can see that The Empire has little regard for even the lives of it's citizens, take the destruction of Alderaan as a prime example of this fact.

Yes we do admit that Leia wants to bring back the crippled, corrupted and red-tape infested Old Republic, and as we see in the Extended Universe it is often the cause of major constrictions due to it's lack of progress. If we were to simply look at it from a black and white point of view we'd see both of them as being evil, The Empire is cruel, merciless and racist in favour of humans, while The Republic is so bogged down in procedures, politics and underhanded deeds that it is worse than The Empire.

The Jedi were one of the few uncrumbled pillars that held up the Old Republic before it's fall, they guarded it from attacks from the outside, settled disputes between members and even went so far as to lay themselves down in order to protect squabbling delegates from the Senate (i.e. Qui-Gon and Padmé). When the Jedi could no longer protect The Republic it fell to the hands of her Supreme Chancellor Palpatine who then established The Empire and went about slaughtering the Jedi who posed a threat to his ascension to power.

Fast forward a number of decades to the conflict with the Yuuzhan Vong, the Republic is totally incapable of defeating this unstoppable enemy to the point where even Coruscant is conquered. The Vong who see the Jedi as a threat order the New Republic to give them up or return for small mercies in their conflict, the Jedi being the only ones at that stage to have face Vong forces and lived are heartlessly abandoned in order for the Republic to protect itself. Later it is the Jedi who find the key to finally understanding the Vong and eventually defeating them (I assume, the final book in the NJO series has yet to come out).

Soon however the Republic creates a pathogen capable of annihilating Vong forces at the genetic level, their Excaliber to defeat the Vong ? [B]No[/B], they decide that it would be too much like the Empire to do something of that nature and continue to get pounded. Now if that Empire had defeated the Rebellion things would be much different, after their initial contact with the Vong Palpatine would have ordered the research of said pathogen and used it to destroy the Vong efficiently and mercilessly. That or they would have used the Death Star to destroy the Vong fleet and any planet they had conquered to give them a clear message.

Now ask yourself, would you rather live under the secure tyranny of the Empire or the flailing uselessness of the New Republic ?[/SIZE]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Kane][SIZE=1']Now ask yourself, would you rather live under the secure tyranny of the Empire or the flailing uselessness of the New Republic ?[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=green]What kind of silly question is this?

I?d rather live under a government that?s ineffective than one in which government/military officials commit atrocities and even genocide on a regular basis without having to answer for their actions. All but one of the galaxy?s species are oppressed and reduced to second class citizens.

You said it yourself, the Empire would have used a pathogen to commit xenocide. The New Republic, a government with some sense of right and wrong, decided not to exterminate an entire race even in the face of overwhelming pressure to do so.

The New Republic has compassion, honor, decency and ethics. The Empire stands for revisionist history, racism, oppression and brutal military rule.

Anyone who?d rather live under the Empire needs their head examined.[/color]

[natetron46]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green'] Therefore, she is just as much to blame for the fall of the Old Republic as anyone else.[/quote]
Thats what Im saying. Surely she did play her role, to more of an extent than some, but others could also be blamed. It was stupid of her to appoint Jar Jar, but she didnt have a choice, she was going to begin a movement to appoint the Supreme Chancellor, but she had to be absent. Therefore, she appointed the other member from her planet to do it, instead of cancelling the motion all together.

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']Add to this blunder the fact that her appointee is duped into starting the vote to strip from the citizens of the galaxy many of their dearest rights (Voting to give the Chancellor emergency powers), and Amidala now bears a great deal of responsibility for the rise of the Empire.[/color][/quote]
You make a good point here. The entire idea of a supreme chancellor defies the point of having a Republic at all. Stupid idea on her part. (I still disagree that Jar Jar was a bad choice though, she had nowhere else to turn, and all he had to do was deliver her (stupid) appeal. ;)


[[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']While Palpitine may have been adept at hiding, to some degree, his political aspirations, I don?t think that everyone trusted him. The short, green, male member of the Jedi council certainly had his doubts. When Yoda talks to Palpitine in Episode II, there?s much more underlying tension than in Episode I. Suspicions are growing at this point, and everyone in the galaxy knows Palpitine is holding onto power for longer than he should.[/quote]
True, I also noticed this, but do you think it was directed at Palpatine or a general awareness by the entire council because they suspected something going on. They said themselves they were blinded by the dark side, perhaps they did not even know who was evil. In that case, they would have been vigilant against anyone, as to not get caught off-guard.

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green]I certainly hope that basic human instincts don?t go out the window when someone smarter than you, even if he/she has significant influence over you, tells you to do something deeply immoral. On some level, you [i]know[/i'] what you are doing is wrong. If you know something you are about to do is wrong, and do it anyway, you should be held responsible for committing that act.[/color][/quote]
Usually they do not, but history has proven so in this world, and obviously in the Star Wars world too. It has happened before, Lucas jsut paraphrases human history. Also, what exactly are you talking about here, Amidala's turning over power?

[Gavin]

[size=1]And now I play Devil's Advocate.[/size]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']I?d rather live under a government that?s ineffective than one in which government/military officials commit atrocities and even genocide on a regular basis without having to answer for their actions. All but one of the galaxy?s species are oppressed and reduced to second class citizens.[/color][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Well think about it, a government that can do something is at least better than a government that can do nothing, aside from their resounding differences in terms of rights and ideals you'd have to admit that the Empire is at least capable of guarding itself without relying on the Jedi to solve everyone of it's problems.

You say that the Empire commits atrocities and genocide on a regular basis, apart from the destruction of Alderaan and their racist policy towards all other races bar humans I see little other actions that could be regarded as Atrocities and Genocide.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']You said it yourself, the Empire would have used a pathogen to commit xenocide. The New Republic, a government with some sense of right and wrong, decided not to exterminate an entire race even in the face of overwhelming pressure to do so.[/color][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Yes you are correct in the fact the the New Republic realised that it was wrong to commit something like Xenocide, we look and see that the Yuuzhan Vong have little regard for similar values as can be seen with the destruction of Ansion (the planet Corran Horn fought to protect) . Now if the Vong had faced the full strength of the Empire they would have been fighting a war against an enemy who had the same regard for life as they did, in the end the Yuuzhan Vong were as eager to commit xenocide at the Empire was. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']The New Republic has compassion, honor, decency and ethics. The Empire stands for revisionist history, racism, oppression and brutal military rule.[/color][/quote]

[SIZE=1]You are indeed correct and The New Republic's ideals although admirable prove to be the main reason it is such a slow body to act, this is because not everyone in the New Republic shares those ideals that Leia and her band of do-gooders fought for. If I remember correctly Dave you once openly said that what the Empire stood for was order not evil, though their policy would seem to reflect that. The New Republic although noble is unable to get anywhere without massive compromise from all sides, the Empire would simply enforce it's will regardless as it a was for the sake of Order.[/SIZE]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Kane][SIZE=1']Well think about it, a government that can do something is at least better than a government that can do nothing[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=green]This is not necessarily true. Would you prefer a government that carries out evil acts, or a government that is impartial? Clearly, the only kind of positive government is one that acts only when necessary and stays out of it's citizens affairs the rest of the time.[/color]

[quote name='Kane][SIZE=1'] you'd have to admit that the Empire is at least capable of guarding itself without relying on the Jedi to solve everyone of it's problems.[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=green]So you prefer the "blow up a planet to kill a few dissidents in a population of pacifists" approach?

Another thing. The Jedi didn?t solve everyone's problems. They merely did their utmost to help out wherever they could. The Jedi Order was by no means a crutch for the Old Republic.[/color]

[quote name='Kane] [SIZE=1']Now if the Vong had faced the full strength of the Empire they would have been fighting a war against an enemy who had the same regard for life as they did, in the end the Yuuzhan Vong were as eager to commit xenocide at the Empire was. [/SIZE][/quote]

[color=green]That sounds great!

Let's now prefer having two forces of evil, each without regard for life on even the most basic level, fight to the death in a galaxy filled with innocent civilians.

I'd prefer having at least one of the warring factions work to protect life whenever possible?[/color]

[quote name='Kane] [SIZE=1']The New Republic's ideals although admirable prove to be the main reason it is such a slow body to act[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=green]That's not a bad thing, at least the New Republic doesn?t shoot first and ask questions later.

There comes a point where too much deliberation and not enough action is detrimental, but I'd prefer too much deliberation and careful consideration on a topic to instinctive action that will only be examined in retrospect.[/color]

[quote name='Kane][SIZE=1']If I remember correctly Dave you once openly said that what the Empire stood for was order not evil, though their policy would seem to reflect that.[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=green]Just because I enjoy spreading Imperial propaganda doesn?t mean I believe it?

Peace through superior firepower should be a joke, not a golden rule.[/color]