Star Wars 411

[Zeta]

[QUOTE] Zeta, you need to make the distinction here, and use language that effectively conveys what you want to say. The Jedi teachings have not waned. They haven't decreased...they haven't become minimized. They've stayed the same.

The focus here is not on their teachings failing them...because the teachings were not the main reason that the Jedi Council/Old Order got decimated. I harp on this because it's a point you need to understand here.

The Jedi's approach/attitude is what doomed the Old Order. There is a key difference between approach/attitude and teachings.

If it were not for the Jedi's attitudes, the Old Order would have remained intact, because they would not have been so pretentious as to believe they were the pinnacle of the social order. Had their attitudes been different, they would have realized the need for massive changes in how they presided over the Order.

The attitude was the bane of the Order...not their teachings. Not seeing the need for change is related to the attitude, not the teachings.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. That has been what I have been trying to convey, but haven't done so successfully, as can be seen.

[QUOTE]I am putting 2 and 2 together, and the Jedi Council are coming off as increasingly incompetent. We're talking about a SITH LORD sitting across from them, and they don't even get so much as a chill?

I realize the power of the Dark Side, and Palpatine's power, is immense, but when they've got a Sith Lord right in front of them and they can't feel anything...I'm sorry, but I can't chalk that one up to uber-powerful Dark Siders. I chalk that failure up to an incompetent Jedi Council.

I don't see how bringing in the OT is supposed to help your argument, because if anything, it's just further portraying the Old Order as hopelessly incompetent. I mean...on Dagobah, Luke feels the cave, and he's barely a Padawan at that point.

If a Novice can be attuned to the Force enough to feel a coldness coming from a cave, and know enough to know that it's something entirely different than just usual swamp stuff...what excuse does a Jedi Master have for missing a Sith Lord? In fact, what excuse does an entire Council of Jedi Masters has? None, lol.[/QUOTE]

Yes they are incompetent. But how can they be [i]that[/i] incompetent? We have to give them some credit as to being able to use their powers. I brought in the OT just to show examples that they can sense the dark side, etc...An excuse for a Jedi master not being able to sense a Sith Lord sitting right across from them, while Luke is able to sense the dark side in the cave? Easy. Palpatine is hiding himself. It makes perfect sense.

There is no one/thing hiding the prescense of the Force in the cave. Yoda is able to sense the dark-side in the cave. How does that explain his not being able to sense Palpatine? Is he more attuned to the workings of the Force after he has been in hiding for so many years? I don't believe so. I believe he could have done the same thing back in the PT years. But he can't sense Palpatine, not because he is incompetent to the fullest degree, but because the Dark Side clouds everything, Palpatine concealing himself from their prescense. If they are that incompetent, Yoda would be oblivious to the fact that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side, but he isn't. Dooku isn't hiding himself from them. How do you explain that Yoda can sense Dooku is a Sith, while he cannot sense Palpatine?

We are really going to be getting nowhere in this argument. I believe the EU is just as much canon as the movies, unless noted otherwise. There are many, many things not answered in the movies, which are answered in the books.

[QUOTE]I think you are missing what I'm saying. From what I gather from your posts, you're pretty confident in Luke's New Order. You're more or less praising them, and I wanted to make it clear that I don't have the same confidence that you do, for mainly two reasons. (if more come to me, I'll edit them in...I've been up all night playing GuildWars, hehe)[/QUOTE]

I am confident in their abilties to act on certain crises that appear throughout the books. We see them take action right away concerning the Vong, regardless of their Light or Dark stances. I am also confident in their changing the ways things are taught, and their basic ways of life; such as allowing marriage. I still don't see how this has to do with Luke being Light at the end of ROTJ. It is just me showing that Luke's Order acted in a time of crisis right off the bat, rather than wait for diplomatic processes to end as we have seen the Old Order do in the movies. I still don't understand what you are trying to get at here.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Thank you. That has been what I have been trying to convey, but haven't done so successfully, as can be seen.[/quote]
Um...you're welcome?

[quote]Yes they are incompetent. But how can they be that incompetent? We have to give them some credit as to being able to use their powers. I brought in the OT just to show examples that they can sense the dark side, etc...An excuse for a Jedi master not being able to sense a Sith Lord sitting right across from them, while Luke is able to sense the dark side in the cave? Easy. Palpatine is hiding himself. It makes perfect sense.

There is no one/thing hiding the prescense of the Force in the cave. Yoda is able to sense the dark-side in the cave. How does that explain his not being able to sense Palpatine? Is he more attuned to the workings of the Force after he has been in hiding for so many years? I don't believe so. I believe he could have done the same thing back in the PT years. But he can't sense Palpatine, not because he is incompetent to the fullest degree, but because the Dark Side clouds everything, Palpatine concealing himself from their prescense. If they are that incompetent, Yoda would be oblivious to the fact that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side, but he isn't. Dooku isn't hiding himself from them. [u][b]How do you explain that Yoda can sense Dooku is a Sith[/b][/u], while he cannot sense Palpatine?[/quote]
When does Yoda ever sense Dooku as a Sith, Zeta? Any time Yoda mentions his name [i]before[/i] the Finale of AOTC, it's merely speaking of Dooku as the leader of the Separatists.

In the Finale, he doesn't sense Dooku is a Sith...he just senses the Dark Side in him. The Force Lightning might have given it away, or the fact that Anakin's arm isn't connected to his body and both he and Obi-Wan are laying on the ground in exhausted, bloody messes, might have clued Yoda in.

But compared to Palpatine's, Dooku's Dark Side resonance (the effect his presence has on the Force) is miniscule. Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He's going to be resonating [i]something[/i] no matter what he's doing. If he's as powerful and as heavily immersed in the Dark Side as we're led to believe, there would be traces of it that would be detectable on some level.

And how many Jedi Masters regularly have personal and physical contact with Palpatine throughout the films? Quite a few. It's not as if Palpatine is walking down the streets of Coruscant across the street from a Padawan. We're talking about essentially shaking hands with Yoda, Mace Windu, etc. Palpatine's powerful, yes, but common sense would dictate that he would be giving off [i]something[/i] there, even if it's just a mild, cold tremor in the Force when he walks into the room.

[quote]We are really going to be getting nowhere in this argument. I believe the EU is just as much canon as the movies, unless noted otherwise. There are many, many things not answered in the movies, which are answered in the books.[/quote]
EU: Sidestories written by authors who differ from fanfiction.net writers only because the EU authors get paid for what they write; stories that very likely are [b][i]not[/i][/b] being read by Lucas at all; stories that base much of the various plots and concepts on spotty interpretations or interpretations that can be weakened by further and more in-depth analysis of the source material; stories about Empire Strikes Back that were written 25 years after Empire Strikes Back was released in theatres...

I would think the fact alone that Lucas probably isn't even reading the EU novels is a fairly strong indication that you need to take most of the EU with a grain of salt.

[quote]I am confident in their abilties to act on certain crises that appear throughout the books. We see them take action right away concerning the Vong, regardless of their Light or Dark stances. I am also confident in their changing the ways things are taught, and their basic ways of life; such as allowing marriage. I still don't see how this has to do with Luke being Light at the end of ROTJ. It is just me showing that Luke's Order acted in a time of crisis right off the bat, rather than wait for diplomatic processes to end as we have seen the Old Order do in the movies. I still don't understand what you are trying to get at here.[/QUOTE]
They act, yes, but they're not as...secure...as most peole think. What you read in the EU there is centered around the idea that Luke was redeemed at the end of RotJ. The New Order is based on the assumption/interpretation that Luke was a good guy at the end of RotJ. What I'm getting at is while the New Order is more than willing to pick-up a lightsaber before things fall to ****, there are other, far more important fundamental [i]flaws[/i] in the EU material about the New Order, most notably regarding the authorial stance taken toward Luke's Force Alignment.

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]In the Finale, he doesn't sense Dooku is a Sith...he just senses the Dark Side in him. The Force Lightning might have given it away, or the fact that Anakin's arm isn't connected to his body and both he and Obi-Wan are laying on the ground in exhausted, bloody messes, might have clued Yoda in.[/QUOTE]

The fact of the matter is. Yoda says he senses the Dark Side in Dooku [i]before[/i] he uses the Force lightning. Regardless of whether or not he knows Dooku is a Sith at that point, Yoda is still able to sense the Dark Side in him.

[QUOTE][b]But compared to Palpatine's, Dooku's Dark Side resonance (the effect his presence has on the Force) is miniscule.[/b] Palpatine is a Sith Lord. He's going to be resonating something no matter what he's doing. If he's as powerful and as heavily immersed in the Dark Side as we're led to believe, there would be traces of it that would be detectable on some level.[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly why [i]something[/i] is being done to mask his prescence from Yoda and others. If they are able to sense it in Dooku who pales in comparison to Palpatine, they should be able to sense him. Yet they can't. Why can they sense the Force on Dooku, who as we have established is inferior to Palpatine by far, but they cannot sense Palpatine? It is more than just incompetence on the Councils part.

I am going to considere the EU being canon until they are all labeled with the icon that the Infinities comics use. Regardless of whether or not Lucas reads them. Until they are specifically said not to be canon, I will consider to think of them as canon.

[QUOTE]They act, yes, but they're not as...secure...as most peole think. What you read in the EU there is centered around the idea that Luke was redeemed at the end of RotJ. The New Order is based on the assumption/interpretation that Luke was a good guy at the end of RotJ. What I'm getting at is while the New Order is more than willing to pick-up a lightsaber before things fall to ****, there are other, far more important fundamental flaws in the EU material about the New Order, most notably regarding the authorial stance taken toward Luke's Force Alignment.[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly what I was saying. Lukes order does act. I never said one thing about them being secure. All I was saying that compared to the Old Order, Lukes Order would have acted while the Old Order would have sat back and debated.

But even so, we can see throughout the books that Luke's Order is light and not dark. Regardless of whether or not Luke is Light-side or neutral at the end of ROTJ, we see him progressing more towards the Light. With the exception of a few Jedi here and there, his Order helps the people of the New Republic. He may or may not be aligned to the Light-side of the Force at the end of ROTJ, but we see him progress more towards the Light-side as the NJO ends. Reading the books even supports your statement. We see countless times where Luke isn't completely aligned with the Light-side of the Force. We see him display characteristics that may lead him down to the Dark-side, and we have seen him [i]fully[/i] embrace the Dark-side. But ultimately we end the EU (as of now) with Luke and his Order embracing the Light-side, taking up the role the Old Order had of protecting the people of the New Republic.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta]The fact of the matter is. Yoda says he senses the Dark Side in Dooku [i]before[/i'] he uses the Force lightning. Regardless of whether or not he knows Dooku is a Sith at that point, Yoda is still able to sense the Dark Side in him.[/quote] And you don't suppose that Dooku, clad in [i]all black[/i], standing over Obi-Wan and Anakin (who are badly beaten, mind) would tip Yoda off?

[quote]Which is exactly why [i]something[/i] is being done to mask his prescence from Yoda and others. If they are able to sense it in Dooku who pales in comparison to Palpatine, they should be able to sense him. Yet they can't. Why can they sense the Force on Dooku, who as we have established is inferior to Palpatine by far, but they cannot sense Palpatine? It is more than just incompetence on the Councils part.[/quote] For argument's sake, let's say that Palpatine was masking his presence so well when he was walking around as Senator Palpatine that nobody in the Jedi Council could ever pick up on it at all. He couldn't be detected because he was in his "Senator" mode, essentially.

That's hard to believe in and of itself, though, because again, Jedi Masters...twelve of them in a room together, which, based on what the films themselves have established, should have strengthened their bond to the Force.

The Force appears to operate on saturation, meaning, when there is a consolidation of a particular Force Alignment's energy, there is a swell at that location. ESB's the cave, for example, is a place where the Dark Side is very powerful. Dagobah as a planet is a "Force planet." That would explain why Luke feels a familiarity with the place. The Emperor himself in RotJ is a focal point for Dark Side energy.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say the Jedi Council would function in a similar manner. The more of them there are together, the stronger their individual attunements to the Force become. It's synergy.

It's been established in the OT that a Jedi can feel a tremor in the Force from great distances. Obi-Wan can hear the screams of Alderaan. Luke could feel Vader at the end of ESB. Why aren't Yoda & CO. sensing Palpatine when he's Darth Sidious? He?s not playing the Senator anymore?he?s playing the overt Sith Lord.

[quote]I am going to considere the EU being canon until they are all labeled with the icon that the Infinities comics use. Regardless of whether or not Lucas reads them. Until they are specifically said not to be canon, I will consider to think of them as canon.[/quote] Check out the various copyright pages of the books. There's an "Authorized by LucasFilm Ltd." That seems to me to be a sign of someone else approving the texts.

I think the probability of Lucas not reading them is a major issue here, Zeta, and one that definitely warrants consideration. Lucas would know Star Wars better than anyone on his staff. If he's not reading the novels, and approving them, someone else is, and I certainly don't think it's wise to trust that other "someone" when it comes to something like EU...do you?

[quote]Which is exactly what I was saying. Lukes order does act. I never said one thing about them being secure. All I was saying that compared to the Old Order, Lukes Order would have acted while the Old Order would have sat back and debated.

But even so, we can see throughout the books that Luke's Order is light and not dark. Regardless of whether or not Luke is Light-side or neutral at the end of ROTJ, we see him progressing more towards the Light. With the exception of a few Jedi here and there, his Order helps the people of the New Republic. He may or may not be aligned to the Light-side of the Force at the end of ROTJ, but we see him progress more towards the Light-side as the NJO ends. Reading the books even supports your statement. We see countless times where Luke isn't completely aligned with the Light-side of the Force. We see him display characteristics that may lead him down to the Dark-side, and we have seen him [i]fully[/i] embrace the Dark-side. But ultimately we end the EU (as of now) with Luke and his Order embracing the Light-side, taking up the role the Old Order had of protecting the people of the New Republic.[/QUOTE] Like I said, there are far greater fundamental issues in Luke?s New Order than a predisposition to start swinging a lightsaber before diplomacy.

Regarding Light Side vs Dark Side, for argument's sake, let's say that Luke was in fact totally redeemed at the end of RotJ (i.e., total Light Side). If that were Lucas' intent, then it would be clear that Lucas had a very specific vision for Luke's character arc, and wanted there to be no question in the audience's mind that Luke was a "good guy" at the end, right?

Now, if this were Lucas' intent, surely he would be apprehensive to approve an EU novel (or allow an EU novel to be approved) that would contradict his original vision. He is very protective of the OT, after all. He made significant changes in the re-release, so he could keep his original vision intact. So if there are EU novels post-RotJ that feature Luke fully embracing the Dark Side, what does that say about the EU and how they're being produced?

That they are in fact conflicting with the films; that Lucas himself is [i]not[/i] evaluating every text; that LucasFilm lackeys and/or marketing are reading and evaluating the texts; that the EU is no better and no more reliable than material from fanfiction.net.

Now let's go from the other side of that argument, that Luke wasn't squeaky clean, wasn't remotely Light Side, and was still on the Dark Side at the end of RotJ.

You've described a situation in the EU that shows a clear authorial predisposition to having Luke and the New Order have a natural inclination to the Light Side of the Force. The progression of the Jedi in the EU, as you've just explained, is Light Side. Luke apparently stumbles along the way, but a fall again would imply there was a redeeming previously, which would indicate that Luke was Light Side in the Finale of RotJ.

But Luke is far from being a Light Side Jedi in the Finale of RotJ. He is still heavily bathed in shadow, a ghostly funeral pyre light, and still clad in the full black suit. If he?s clearly more dark than light, why would there be an inclination to Light Side at all? I find it to be very apparent that Luke isn't remotely close to "good" in those final scenes.

Throughout Star Wars, clothing plays a large part in what a character represents (Darth Vader, Leia, for example), and Luke is no different. In A New Hope, he starts off in white; in ESB, he's gray; in the [u]entirety[/u] of RotJ, he's all-black. Dark Side? You betcha. Let?s not forget he uses Force Choke, which if it?s not an actual power exclusive to the Dark Side, it?s certainly only utilized by Dark Side characters.

Forget all about the EU post-RotJ for a moment (because it [i]will[/i] confuse you) and think about what the ending to RotJ means, particularly in terms of lighting, shot composition, costuming, etc. Luke is Dark Side, and if not Dark Side, still heavily, heavily leaning.

EDIT: You're going to have to give me (PM me) your email addy, Zeta. You don't accept email through the OB link in your profile.

[Zeta]

[quote] And you don't suppose that Dooku, clad in all black, standing over Obi-Wan and Anakin (who are badly beaten, mind) would tip Yoda off?[/quote]

?Powerful you have become Dooku. The Dark Side I sense in you.? His exact words. The keyword here is [i]sense[/i]. He doesn?t deduce the fact that Dooku is using the Dark Side. He senses it. He doesn?t say he has deduced the fact that Dooku is using the Dark Side. Going strickly by the movies, as you seem to like, you are saying something that is [i]not[/i] explicitly said in the movie. What is said explicitly is that he senses it within him.

[quote] It's been established in the OT that a Jedi can feel a tremor in the Force from great distances. Obi-Wan can hear the screams of Alderaan. Luke could feel Vader at the end of ESB. Why aren't Yoda & CO. sensing Palpatine when he's Darth Sidious? He?s not playing the Senator anymore?he?s playing the overt Sith Lord.[/quote]

Which is what I am asking you. If Palpatine is not hiding himself from the Jedi, then how exactly is he staying masked to their senses?

1) The destruction of Alderaan took place light years away from Obi-Wan. Yet he is still able to feel the tremor. Largely because of the massive loss of life of course.

2) Luke is able to feel Vader at the end of ESB, yes. A Padawan, with extremely little training from the strongest Jedi alive at the time, Yoda.

3) We have Vader saying in ANH that he ?has not felt a presence since.? He is, as you know, talking about Obi-Wan.

Here we have three instances where we know that the Jedi are able to feel other Force users.

Now what do you have in the prequels. We have a very powerful, quite possibly the strongest, Sith Lord to show his face in the GFFA. We have Jedi, a handful of them at any given time, seated across from him. And they are all oblivious as to Palpatine?s true identity. Why?

We know that the Jedi are not as incompetent as you are making them out to believe, as we can see from your two of your own examples. Luke, a lowly Padawan; hell, not even one in my books, is able to sense Vader, who is someone as strong, if not stronger than Palpatine.

But what do we have in the Prequels again? An extremely powerful Sith Lord that has masked his presence to every single Jedi. We know the Jedi are not as incompetent as you are making them out to be. If they were, Yoda would not have been able to sense Dooku, Luke would not have been able to sense Vader. You tell me how it is possible for the Jedi to not sense that Palpatine is just bursting at the seems with the Dark Side, without him masking himself from them.

Recap. As has been shown, Yoda sensed the Dark Side in Dooku. You cannot say that Yoda deduced the fact from his clothes and that there were two Jedi laying on the ground, why? Because it is not explicitly stated in the film, just like how you said I cannot claim that Palpatine was hiding himself from the Jedi because it wasn?t stated in the film. Dooku is far inferior to Palpatine in Dark Side power, but is able to be sensed by Yoda.[i] Now you tell me, why can the Jedi not sense Palpatine when he is quite possibly the strongest Sith to show his face in the GFFA.[/i]

[quote] I think the probability of Lucas not reading them is a major issue here, Zeta, and one that definitely warrants consideration. Lucas would know Star Wars better than anyone on his staff. If he's not reading the novels, and approving them, someone else is, and I certainly don't think it's wise to trust that other "someone" when it comes to something like EU...do you?[/quote]

I still do not see this as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. All [i]major[/i] changes are approved by Lucas in some form or the other, whether it be by phone or mail. Ideas that would drastically change his universe would most likely come from him. As an example, it was Luca who said that Anakin Solo would die in [i]Star by Star[/i] when it was originally going to be Jacen. I highly doubt he would let things fly that would interfere with how he interpreted the story to be. You can find this in the CD that comes with [i]The Unifying Force[/i] if you wish to see the proof.

[quote] Now, if this were Lucas' intent, surely he would be apprehensive to approve an EU novel (or allow an EU novel to be approved) that would contradict his original vision. He is very protective of the OT, after all. He made significant changes in the re-release, so he could keep his original vision intact. So if there are EU novels post-RotJ that feature Luke fully embracing the Dark Side, what does that say about the EU and how they're being produced?[/quote]

I never said that Luke was completely Light Side at the end of ROTJ. So now, the fact that Luke fully embraces the Dark Side does not interfere with what Lucas? story.

The fact that Luke embraces the Dark Side fully, or as completely as he can without being totally consumed by it, does not mean he had to have been redeemed in ROTJ. It just shows that even though he is progressing towards the Light Side from the end of ROTJ, that he is still susceptible to the tempting of the Dark Side, and can still take that path.

[quote] But Luke is far from being a Light Side Jedi in the Finale of RotJ. He is still heavily bathed in shadow, a ghostly funeral pyre light, and still clad in the full black suit. If he?s clearly more dark than light, why would there be an inclination to Light Side at all? I find it to be very apparent that Luke isn't remotely close to "good" in those final scenes.[/quote]

Regardless of whether or not he seems to be good or bad at the end of ROTJ, as the EU progresses we clearly see him heading towards the Light. How can we tell this? He doesn?t use his power to rule over others. He doesn?t use his powers to get his way. We see him doing, to the best of his ability, what the Jedi of old were doing, [i]protecting[/i] the people.

There is inclination to the Light Side because Luke isn?t consumed by the Dark Side. He still has the ability to choose which path to take. Vader is practically [i]all[/i] dark, and yet strays farther and farther from it as time goes on. He may not be completely redeemed and turned Light, but he sure as hell was becoming [i]more[/i] light than dark.

PS: You no longer have to e-mail me the script. It loaded up for me the other day. Very nice. J Thanks a lot.

[Brasil]

Fast reply. Quick hits on your points.

[QUOTE=Zeta]?Powerful you have become Dooku. The Dark Side I sense in you.? His exact words. The keyword here is [i]sense[/i]. He doesn?t deduce the fact that Dooku is using the Dark Side. He senses it. He doesn?t say he has deduced the fact that Dooku is using the Dark Side. Going strickly by the movies, as you seem to like, you are saying something that is [i]not[/i] explicitly said in the movie. What is said explicitly is that he senses it within him.

Which is what I am asking you. If Palpatine is not hiding himself from the Jedi, then how exactly is he staying masked to their senses?

1) The destruction of Alderaan took place light years away from Obi-Wan. Yet he is still able to feel the tremor. Largely because of the massive loss of life of course.

2) Luke is able to feel Vader at the end of ESB, yes. A Padawan, with extremely little training from the strongest Jedi alive at the time, Yoda.

3) We have Vader saying in ANH that he ?has not felt a presence since.? He is, as you know, talking about Obi-Wan.

Here we have three instances where we know that the Jedi are able to feel other Force users.

Now what do you have in the prequels. We have a very powerful, quite possibly the strongest, Sith Lord to show his face in the GFFA. We have Jedi, a handful of them at any given time, seated across from him. And they are all oblivious as to Palpatine?s true identity. Why?

We know that the Jedi are not as incompetent as you are making them out to believe, as we can see from your two of your own examples. Luke, a lowly Padawan; hell, not even one in my books, is able to sense Vader, who is someone as strong, if not stronger than Palpatine.

But what do we have in the Prequels again? An extremely powerful Sith Lord that has masked his presence to every single Jedi. We know the Jedi are not as incompetent as you are making them out to be. If they were, Yoda would not have been able to sense Dooku, Luke would not have been able to sense Vader. You tell me how it is possible for the Jedi to not sense that Palpatine is just bursting at the seems with the Dark Side, without him masking himself from them.

Recap. As has been shown, Yoda sensed the Dark Side in Dooku. You cannot say that Yoda deduced the fact from his clothes and that there were two Jedi laying on the ground, why? Because it is not explicitly stated in the film, just like how you said I cannot claim that Palpatine was hiding himself from the Jedi because it wasn?t stated in the film. Dooku is far inferior to Palpatine in Dark Side power, but is able to be sensed by Yoda.[i] Now you tell me, why can the Jedi not sense Palpatine when he is quite possibly the strongest Sith to show his face in the GFFA.[/i][/quote]
Yes, Dooku's demonstrating anger, passion, malignancy...which are the precise emotions that Palpatine demonstrates when he's Darth Sidious and nowhere do we ever see any Jedi perk-up when he's Darth Sidious.

He's not hiding his Sith-ness there; he's [i]reveling[/i] in it.

It's interesting that I'm watching Pleasantville right now, because I find it to be a rather appropriate reference for this discussion. In Pleasantville, the Council of Commerce is the group that presides over the town, and isn't exactly comprised of the most intuitive people in town.

They're simpletons, essentially, ones who are so limited in their perceptions--or rather, steadfast in the denial of external and internal perceivings, that they become the bane of their own existences.

Big Bob, the "leader" of town, denies the existence of passion, fear, anger, etc., within himself--which is precisely what the Jedi Council does. He limits himself to the extent that he is unable to see what the real problem is...to the extent that he limits his own perceptions and intuition.

I don't think it's the Dark Side that clouds the Jedi Council at all. It's their own self-assurances that limit their perceptions...just like Big Bob. Dark Side has very little, if anything, to do with it. The moments we hear about the Dark Side clouding things are moments when the Jedi are speaking...and it's not as if the Jedi on the council are all that intuitive to begin with.

They're pretentious, overly confident in their abilities (only finally getting/accepting the idea that they aren't so omniscient when it's too late), and are ineffective because of their attitudes...attitudes that are the clouds, not the Dark Side. Dark Side presence or not, the Dark Side isn't to blame for why the Council can't detect jack-****. The Council can't detect jack-**** to begin with, lol.

[quote]I still do not see this as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. All [i]major[/i] changes are approved by Lucas in some form or the other, whether it be by phone or mail. Ideas that would drastically change his universe would most likely come from him. As an example, it was Luca who said that Anakin Solo would die in [i]Star by Star[/i] when it was originally going to be Jacen. I highly doubt he would let things fly that would interfere with how he interpreted the story to be. You can find this in the CD that comes with [i]The Unifying Force[/i] if you wish to see the proof.[/quote]
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon][u]Star Wars Canon[/u][/url]

[quote name='Site][b]Star Wars canon[/b] was first defined in the first issue of the Lucasfilm magazine, the Star Wars Insider: "Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology."[/quote] [quote=Site]This policy has been further refined and fleshed out over the years. The STAR WARS website also details the role of canon, Expanded Universe, or "EU" sources, and how they fit into overall STAR WARS continuity. Chris Cerasi stated, "[b]When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves - and only the films[/b]. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies. The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, [i][b]but stylistically[/b][/i], there is [i][b]always room for variation[/b][/i']. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable. The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view."[/quote] [quote=Site]As of 2000, Lucas Licensing has appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron". As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years. The Holocron is divided into 4 levels: [b]G-canon[/b], [b]C-canon[/b], [b]S-canon[/b], and [b]N-canon[/b]. G, C, and S together form an overall continuity.

[b]G-canon[/b] is absolute canon; the movies, the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays and the Star Wars DK "Cross Sections", "Visual Dictionaries", and "Inside The Worlds Of" books based on the movies. G-canon always overides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.

[b]C-canon[/b] is pretty much everything in the [url="/wiki/Expanded_Universe_%28Star_Wars%29"]Expanded Universe[/url]; SW books, comics, and games. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay are N-canon.

[b]S-canon[/b] is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game [i]Star Wars Galaxies[/i] and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

[b]N-canon[/b] is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the [i][url="/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars:_Infinities&action=edit"]Star Wars: Infinities[/url][/i] label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the [i]only[/i] level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.[/quote]

Note no mention is made of Lucas himself reading the texts. Note "Lucas Licensing" is the driving force behind the canon evaluation. Licensing is more associated with marketing and production...not development/evaluation of core ideas and concepts.

Also, see below.

[quote]I never said that Luke was completely Light Side at the end of ROTJ. So now, the fact that Luke fully embraces the Dark Side does not interfere with what Lucas? story.

The fact that Luke embraces the Dark Side fully, or as completely as he can without being totally consumed by it, does not mean he had to have been redeemed in ROTJ. It just shows that even though he is progressing towards the Light Side from the end of ROTJ, that he is still susceptible to the tempting of the Dark Side, and can still take that path.

Regardless of whether or not he seems to be good or bad at the end of ROTJ, as the EU progresses we clearly see him heading towards the Light. How can we tell this? He doesn?t use his power to rule over others. He doesn?t use his powers to get his way. We see him doing, to the best of his ability, what the Jedi of old were doing, [i]protecting[/i] the people.

There is inclination to the Light Side because Luke isn?t consumed by the Dark Side. He still has the ability to choose which path to take. Vader is practically [i]all[/i] dark, and yet strays farther and farther from it as time goes on. He may not be completely redeemed and turned Light, but he sure as hell was becoming [i]more[/i] light than dark.[/quote]
Zeta, ask yourself, is there any indication at all in RotJ that--if Luke were indeed totally redeemed at the end of the film--Luke would fall at all post-RotJ? If he were Light Side, [i]there is nothing in RotJ (or for that matter, in ANH [b]or[/b] ESB) to ever suggest that he would fall in the manner that the EU texts have implied[/i]. You want to talk about the EU being unreliable? Lucas' character redemptions are more or less permanent. There's nothing in the OT to suggest that Han Solo will slip back into his cheatin' scoundrel's ways (i.e., a fall back into "darkness").

Luke and Han are two of the major "redemptions" in the OT, and there is nothing that would indicate they were going to fall back into their questionable antics. Anakin is "redeemed" in RotJ and we see his Force Spirit with Yoda's and Obi-Wan's, and it's made rather clear that he's achieved peace, and won't be turning to malicious naughtiness.

If the Luke As Good ending to RotJ is the accurate one, then he's not going to fall again, simple as that.

I don't have the time right now to go into why I'm placing redemption in quotation marks, but it relates to the material in RotJ I've mentioned before. I will say this, though. I don't think it's prudent to believe a Jedi Order founded by someone who's a "darkie" at best (Luke) will be as guaranteed to go Light Side as the EU texts show. When the foundation is shaky, the Order will be shaky, as evidenced by the Old Order.

[quote]PS: You no longer have to e-mail me the script. It loaded up for me the other day. Very nice. J Thanks a lot.[/QUOTE]
Did you see the emphasis on "point of view"? It's something that's repeated throughout the Saga, from TPM up through RotJ.

I think I said everything I had time to say. If I missed anything, I'll catch it on the rebound.

[Zeta]

Not going to quote everything, would make for a really long post, heh.

Palpatine:

You still haven't answered as to why Yoda is able to sense Dooku, a far inferior being who won't be reveling in the Dark Side as much as Sidious. The Council is competent enought to sense a less strong being than a stronger being? If anything the should have an easier time sensing Palpatine than sensing Dooku.

Canon:

Please do tell me where you are getting me saying Lucas is reading the texts. He is only contacted about very important plot points/developments/etc.. G-canon, S-canon, be it what it may. The key is it isn't canon if it contradicts something mentioned in the movies.

So, we can safely believe that Palpatine does have the ability to mask himself from the Council's awareness. And we can also safely believe that the Jedi do have the ability to detect deception, etc.. If you can point me to where in the movies/movie novelisations/etc..that Palpatine masking himself from the Jedi and the Jedi's ability to detect deception is a contradiction to something mentioned in movies, please go ahead.

Ending of ROTJ:

Again, I have never said that ROTJ ended with Luke being good. I agree with you on the fact that he is leaning more towards Dark then Light.

I [i]know[/i] his Order is shaky. Nowhere have I implied otherwise. He has members fall to the Dark Side, just like the Old Order. But the majority of his Order is progressing towards Light Side, you can clearly see it in the books, regardless of the fact that Luke wasn't completely light by the end of ROTJ.The fact that he is not completely Light Side means that he can still stray down the path he almost took in ROTJ.

All I have said is that Luke's Order is based mostly on action. His Order takes up fighting roles much more often than the Old Order. And concerning this matter, all I have said is that Luke's Order would have jumped to action against the Vong much sooner than the Old Order one. We can deduce this through the Old Orders actions in the past concerning various conflicts.

This doesn't imply that Lukes Order is perfect. It just shows one change in his orders teachings and beliefs on what their job is.

Script:

I haven't been able to read it all yet. I am working on some school readings at the momet. Barely even had time to start it sadly.

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Zeta]Palpatine:

You still haven't answered as to why Yoda is able to sense Dooku, a far inferior being who won't be reveling in the Dark Side as much as Sidious. The Council is competent enought to sense a less strong being than a stronger being? If anything the should have an easier time sensing Palpatine than sensing Dooku.[/quote]
Yes, Yoda is standing in the same room as Dooku, and Dooku is giving off DS energy. But that doesn't account for why Yoda & CO. can't sense Palpatine when he's [i]Darth Sidious[/i] (Darth Sidious, by the way, in full Sith-ness...no pretenses, no covers. He's total Sith Lord there.). He's using the Dark Side to hide himself from the Jedi even when he's Darth Sidious? Even when he [i]is[/i] the Dark Side he's able to hide himself? C'mon. He's fully immersed in the Dark Side of the Force there, and it's clear he's not trying to play the Senator for the Jedi.

Furthermore, there [i]are[/i] times in AOTC where Dooku is meeting with the other leaders of the Separatist alliance and there's no indication the Jedi can sense that. Dooku revels in the Dark Side in those scenes--the Jedi can't sense that--and it's not as if Dooku is hiding at all there.

Is it Dark Side power clouding the Jedi sense when Dooku is meeting with the Genosians far away from the Council's chambers, or when Palpatine is Darth Sidious, far away from the Council's chambers...or is that failure on the Jedi's part more a testament to their inability to wield the Force (i.e., their complete incompetence)?

These are Jedi Masters here, and Obi-Wan can sense Alderaan's destruction in Hyperspace...but a Council of twelve Jedi Masters can't feel anything when a minor Sith Lord is meeting with a bunch of anarchists/revolutionaries? I'm sorry, but that is just incompetence. The Jedi are supposed to feel things through the Force, at whatever distance. A minor Sith Lord like Dooku is one of those things.

[quote]Canon:

Please do tell me where you are getting me saying Lucas is reading the texts.[/quote]
[quote name='Zeta]All [i]major[/i'] changes are approved by Lucas in some form or the other, whether it be by phone or mail. Ideas that would drastically change his universe would most likely come from him.[/quote]
[quote name='Zeta']I am going to considere the EU being canon until they are all labeled with the icon that the Infinities comics use. Regardless of whether or not Lucas reads them.[/quote]
I keep repeating the very real possibility of Lucas not reading the texts because you keep minimizing it, and I want to make it clear that it's something that needs consideration when evaluating EU texts for accuracy. Lucas doesn't have the time to read all of the EU material being written/produced, so he's getting second-hand accounts of it from assistants, interns, etc. I'll use a theatre example to explain what I mean.

In set design and construction, you always need to be perfectly precise when you're cutting lumber and putting the set together. If you're off by say, 1/8 of an inch after nailing three beams together, that amount of difference will only be exponentially increased by the time you reach the final product. What may seem like a minor variation in the beginning is going to turn out to be a major difference.

Consider that analogy here. Lucas is the final product. The process of construction is the assistants and so forth reading the texts (and then reporting to Lucas), and the original is the author's fiction. There are intermediaries between Lucas and the text, so it's not as if he's getting a pure, unfiltered view of things. The meaning/plot points/etc of the text are being "translated" by someone who didn't create Star Wars.

I'm harping on this, I know, but what Lucas is approving may very well be misinterpretations or misunderstandings a...Beta Reader had while reading the text. That fact alone is a major blow to the credibility of the EU, because whether or not Lucas endorses them, he's reading what amounts to a [i]book report[/i], and we all know from our own personal experiences that book reports [i]suck[/i]. I know I don't trust students' book reports to give me an accurate representation of what a book is...do you?

[quote]He is only contacted about very important plot points/developments/etc.. G-canon, S-canon, be it what it may.[/quote]
See the set construction analogy above, and also the book report.

[quote]Where does it say in the movies that the Jedi being able to sense deception, etc.. is a contradiction? Until it says in the movies that they do not have this ability it is just as much canon as the movies itself. The keyword is it isn't canon if it contradicts something mentioned in the movies. Show me where it says they cannot detect deception and the like, and I will gladly rescind my views on this matter.[/quote]
What if I were to tell you that the Force has little to nothing to do with the political maneuvering seen in Episodes I and II? The Dark Side and the Force is used only to "shield" Palpatine from the Force Attunements (although it's more incompetent on the part of the Council). The Dark Side power has nothing to do with what Palpatine does in the Old Republic itself, in the Senate. What he does in the Senate is plain and simple old-fashioned political manipulation. No Force required.

It's not coincidence that the Separatists want to secede from the Republic shortly after there's such dissention among the Senators, after it's obvious there's a Sith presence, after the Trade Federation's stunt on Naboo. The fact that there were battle droids in the Trade Federation's army and the Separatists ally themselves with the Techno Union?

Maybe it's just me, but that's too big of a warning flag that there's something sneaky going on in the political arena to just chalk it up to simple coincidence. One doesn't even need Force Attunement to smell a rat there.

Jedi can sense deception? I'm sure they can, what with that whole "missing the big, fricking, red, flashing light" thing there, lol. It's just a matter of reading between the lines.

[quote]Ending of ROTJ:

Again, I have never said that ROTJ ended with Luke being good. I agree with you on the fact that he is leaning more towards Dark then Light.

I [i]know[/i] his Order is shaky. Nowhere have I implied otherwise. He has members fall to the Dark Side, just like the Old Order. But the majority of his Order is progressing towards Light Side, you can clearly see it in the books, regardless of the fact that Luke wasn't completely light by the end of ROTJ.The fact that he is not completely Light Side means that he can still stray down the path he almost took in ROTJ.

All I have said is that Luke's Order is based mostly on action. His Order takes up fighting roles much more often than the Old Order. And concerning this matter, all I have said is that Luke's Order would have jumped to action against the Vong much sooner than the Old Order one. We can deduce this through the Old Orders actions in the past concerning various conflicts.

This doesn't imply that Lukes Order is perfect. It just shows one change in his orders teachings and beliefs on what their job is.[/quote]
If Luke is DS instead of LS, and has clearly been falling throughout the OT, why would he suddenly go on the incline post-RotJ, when he's clearly been in a downward spiral the entire time? If there's nothing in RotJ to suggest that he's remotely LS (and nothing in the OT to suggest he's got a LS inclination), what precedent do the EU novels have to set him on the gradual/ultimate path of LS? For that matter, what precedent is there to set the New Order on the path to the LS? Especially considering the founder is DS?

[quote]Script:

I haven't been able to read it all yet. I am working on some school readings at the momet. Barely even had time to start it sadly.[/QUOTE]
I'd normally say "Set blasters to kill" here, but I'll refrain, because I've been insanely busy, too. lol =p

[Zeta]

[quote]Yes, Yoda is standing in the same room as Dooku, and Dooku is giving off DS energy. But that doesn't account for why Yoda & CO. can't sense Palpatine when he's Darth Sidious (Darth Sidious, by the way, in full Sith-ness...no pretenses, no covers. He's total Sith Lord there.). He's using the Dark Side to hide himself from the Jedi even when he's Darth Sidious? Even when he is the Dark Side he's able to hide himself? C'mon. He's fully immersed in the Dark Side of the Force there, and it's clear he's not trying to play the Senator for the Jedi.[/quote]

Who says he cannot do this? Why not? We know the Dark Side clouds everything. The fact that he [i]is[/i] the Dark Side will cloud him only more.

[quote]Furthermore, there are times in AOTC where Dooku is meeting with the other leaders of the Separatist alliance and there's no indication the Jedi can sense that. Dooku revels in the Dark Side in those scenes--the Jedi can't sense that--and it's not as if Dooku is hiding at all there.[/quote]

Says who? Dooku can easily be hiding himself from the Jedi just as much as Palpatine is. But, there is only what, one meeting with the Seperatists where a Jedi is present? Obi-Wan is a powerful Jedi. He is able to sense a lowly centipede thingy about to kill Padme, yet he cannot sense Dooku? There is obviously something more going on. Dooku has no need to immerse himself in the Dark Side while meeting with the Seperatists, why should he? And again, the Dark Side does cloud everything. The whole planet of Geonosis, mixed with Dooku?s Dark Side energy, could easily have clouded Obi-Wans perceptions of what Dooku actually was.

[quote] Is it Dark Side power clouding the Jedi sense when Dooku is meeting with the Genosians far away from the Council's chambers, or when Palpatine is Darth Sidious, far away from the Council's chambers...or is that failure on the Jedi's part more a testament to their inability to wield the Force (i.e., their complete incompetence)?[/quote]

Why on earth can?t it be clouding everything? Yoda says it clouds [i]everything[/i]. But they have no reason to believe that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side. There have been other Masters that have left the Order and not turned to the Dark Side. They believed he was a simple former Jedi, not impressed with the workings of the Republic and was looking for change.

Why would the Dark Side stop clouding everything just because they are far away from the Council Chambers? It chooses where it beings to cloud things or something? Is there a certain distance where it suddenly stops, and everything is clear?

[quote] These are Jedi Masters here, and Obi-Wan can sense Alderaan's destruction in Hyperspace...but a Council of twelve Jedi Masters can't feel anything when a minor Sith Lord is meeting with a bunch of anarchists/revolutionaries? I'm sorry, but that is just incompetence. The Jedi are supposed to feel things through the Force, at whatever distance. A minor Sith Lord like Dooku is one of those things.[/quote]

The destruction of Alderaan and Dooku are completely different things here. Obi-Wan was able to sense the destruction of Alderaan because billions of people suddenly just went up in smoked. A lowly meeting with Seperatists on Dooku?s part isn?t going to peek a Jedi?s senses. It isn?t going to set off a disturbance to alert them to something. How does Dooku meeting with the Seperatists create a disturbance in the Force? These are two completely different things here.

The key thing here is that the Dark Side clouds everything. It doesn?t choose when/where/who/why. It clouds [i]everything[/i].

And where does it say that the can feel things through the Force at whatever distance? Sure they can feel intense rage/destruction/etc.. but picking out a single person who hasn?t caused a disturbance in the Force?

[quote] I keep repeating the very real possibility of Lucas not reading the texts because you keep minimizing it, and I want to make it clear that it's something that needs consideration when evaluating EU texts for accuracy. Lucas doesn't have the time to read all of the EU material being written/produced, so he's getting second-hand accounts of it from assistants, interns, etc.[/quote]

I know he doesn?t read everything. But what I do know is that all major things that will affect his creation go through him. He is asked if so and so is ok to kill/do etc?If it conflicts with his story, he doesn?t allow it. He didn?t allow them to kill off Luke, Han, or Leia in NJO. He wanted Anakin Solo killed in the NJO to ease confusion.

I never said he reads the entire EU. All I have said is that he approves/disapproves things that may or may not conflict with his story. He isn?t going to allow something drastic to happen if it changes his story.

We [i]can[/i] look to the EU for accuracy. We know he won?t allow major changes to occur to his story. And your link on canon only strengthens that we can take the EU into consideration. The first three form an overall continuity. Until something in the books is contradicted by a line/scene in the Star Wars movies, it is just as much free game as the movies themselves. Then we can say that whatever part of the EU is inaccurate/non-canon. We have seen this before with the original dates of the Clone Wars mentioned in [i]The Thrawn Trilogy[/i].

So it ultimately boils down to this. Until something in the movies directly contradicts what is said in the book(s) it is canon, and can be safely assumed so, regardless of whether or not Lucas doesn?t ready every single EU piece out there.

[quote] What if I were to tell you that the Force has little to nothing to do with the political maneuvering seen in Episodes I and II? The Dark Side and the Force is used only to "shield" Palpatine from the Force Attunements (although it's more incompetent on the part of the Council). The Dark Side power has nothing to do with what Palpatine does in the Old Republic itself, in the Senate. What he does in the Senate is plain and simple old-fashioned political manipulation. No Force required.[/quote]

We all ready know that the Jedi know that politicians are not to be trusted. But had they known the [i]true[/i] Palpatine, they would have acted no doubt. Slowly they began to realize things were happening for a reason. As they slowly see what is going on they begin to suspect that Palpatine is more than he is. He is a clever politcian yes. But he is also a powerful Dark Side user able to manipulate things to go his way. Who is to say that he isn?t manipulating certain events/people on the home front to get his way? Had he not been a powerful Sith Lord, he would not have blockaded Naboo, etc?Many, many things that Palpatine, the politician, did were results of him manipulating events in his favor with the help of the Dark Side.

[quote]
It's not coincidence that the Separatists want to secede from the Republic shortly after there's such dissention among the Senators, after it's obvious there's a Sith presence, after the Trade Federation's stunt on Naboo. The fact that there were battle droids in the Trade Federation's army and the Separatists ally themselves with the Techno Union?

Maybe it's just me, but that's too big of a warning flag that there's something sneaky going on in the political arena to just chalk it up to simple coincidence. One doesn't even need Force Attunement to smell a rat there.

Jedi can sense deception? I'm sure they can, what with that whole "missing the big, fricking, red, flashing light" thing there, lol. It's just a matter of reading between the lines.[/quote]

This all once again comes down to the Dark Side clouding everything.

[quote] If Luke is DS instead of LS, and has clearly been falling throughout the OT, why would he suddenly go on the incline post-RotJ, when he's clearly been in a downward spiral the entire time? If there's nothing in RotJ to suggest that he's remotely LS (and nothing in the OT to suggest he's got a LS inclination), what precedent do the EU novels have to set him on the gradual/ultimate path of LS? For that matter, what precedent is there to set the New Order on the path to the LS? Especially considering the founder is DS?[/quote]

How does him choosing to not fully embrace the Dark Side and kill his father, [i]not[/i] show an inclination towards the Light Side?

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']This all once again comes down to the Dark Side clouding everything.[/quote] A statement made by Jedi who have just realized they've been acting out of ignorance and not intelligence. Sorry, Dark Side clouding everything? I don't really believe we can place so much faith in the Jedi assessment there. For more on this, please see comments below.

[QUOTE=Zeta]Who says he cannot do this? Why not? We know the Dark Side clouds everything. The fact that he [i]is[/i] the Dark Side will cloud him only more.

Says who? Dooku can easily be hiding himself from the Jedi just as much as Palpatine is. But, there is only what, one meeting with the Seperatists where a Jedi is present? Obi-Wan is a powerful Jedi. He is able to sense a lowly centipede thingy about to kill Padme, yet he cannot sense Dooku? There is obviously something more going on. Dooku has no need to immerse himself in the Dark Side while meeting with the Seperatists, why should he? And again, the Dark Side does cloud everything. The whole planet of Geonosis, mixed with Dooku?s Dark Side energy, could easily have clouded Obi-Wans perceptions of what Dooku actually was.

Why on earth can?t it be clouding everything? Yoda says it clouds [i]everything[/i]. But they have no reason to believe that Dooku has turned to the Dark Side. There have been other Masters that have left the Order and not turned to the Dark Side. They believed he was a simple former Jedi, not impressed with the workings of the Republic and was looking for change.

Why would the Dark Side stop clouding everything just because they are far away from the Council Chambers? It chooses where it beings to cloud things or something? Is there a certain distance where it suddenly stops, and everything is clear?

The key thing here is that the Dark Side clouds everything. It doesn?t choose when/where/who/why. It clouds [i]everything[/i]. [/quote] I notice you keep referring to Yoda's "The Dark Side clouds everything." Why are you so sure that Yoda is so correct there? I refer back to my Pleasantville reference. Big Bob is so confident in himself that any failure on his part must be the fault of someone else. He blinds himself and his perceptions with his own falsely-inflated sense of self-worth. He tries to take the "high road" wherever possible, attempting to maintain an almost Orwellian control over his faculties, and anyone who challenges his Ideology (his Ideology being that there must not be passion, or fear, or love for a society to exist, for an order to survive) are labeled Heretics and suppressed.

When Big Bob does "fall," he has only himself to blame. When he is unable to see and feel the dangers of the society he presides over, he has only himself to blame.

Apply that philosophy to the Jedi Council (Yoda included).

The Council is so confident in their own abilities that they never entertain the idea that perhaps the failure to sense disturbances in the Force is not the workings of the Dark Side, instead a fundamental failure in their own personal approaches. "The Dark Side clouds everything" is a self-assurance more than anything else...a self-assurance that it's really not the Council's fault (when it really is, because all along, they were the ones ultimately limiting their own perceptions, just like Big Bob).

You ask why Yoda was able to sense Dooku's Dark Side when he faced him in front of Anakin and Obi-Wan? He sensed the Dark Side because he finally opened his eyes.

All of this time you're seemingly arguing that the Dark Side is more powerful than the Light Side, that it can overwhelm everything, and you're basing your argument on something Yoda says in the Prequels, but let's examine something Yoda says in ESB:

[quote=Empire Strikes Back]LUKE: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?
YODA: No... no... no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.[/quote] This is what Yoda says long after what happened in the Prequels, and after he had gained a new perspective on things. At the time of the Prequels, he isn't fully aware of the dynamics of the Dark/Light duality. He believes the Dark Side is clouding everything, so he effectively absolves himself of any of the blame.

But in ESB, however, after he saw the problems that arose out of his Prequel attitude, he sees things for what they really are (and always were): one side of the Force not having a dominance over the other. It's a balance. The Dark Side was never overpowering the Light Side, or the Jedi Council. The Jedi Council were limiting themselves, and ESB Yoda understands this, and expresses it through the dialogue I quoted above.

Palpatine was orchestrating, yes, but he most certainly was not blinding the entire Jedi Council. The Council was blinding themselves. ESB Yoda knows this.

Now, let?s consider what Yoda said (?Dark Side is not stronger?) in a different context, specifically relating to the EU?perhaps the EU texts that entertain various ideas as to the extent of Palpatine?s powers, notably his Dark Side cloning-life-energy-transfer and his ability that could be called the Dark Side Battle Meditation.

As I understand it, there are novels that deal specifically with ways Palpatine keeps himself alive through cloning and life transfer techniques exclusive to the Dark Side. With this technique, Palpatine can keep himself alive forever (and continue to wreak havoc in post-RotJ EU texts). But there is never any mention made of any Light Side powers/abilities of this magnitude in the films themselves, so Palpatine possessing these abilities would significantly tilt the strength of the Force in the Dark Side?s favor.

The same is said for his ?Battle Meditation? (the EU supposition of how the Imperial Navy was so powerful). The success and strength of the Imperial Navy, according to EU supposition, is largely in part due to Palpatine ?inspiring? the troops and boosting their abilities through Dark Side powers.

But if the EU were accurate in these situations, then Yoda?s statement in ESB about the Dark Side not being stronger than the Light Side would be false, because if Palpatine did possess those abilities, the Dark Side would definitely be stronger than the Light Side, because with those Dark Side abilities, one could create invincible armies. It is stated that anything in the films takes precedent over everything else that may conflict with the films, and this is one of those things.

The [b]films[/b] state the Dark Side is [b]not stronger[/b]. The [b]EU[/b] indicates it [b]is[/b]. The films overrule the EU.

[quote]The destruction of Alderaan and Dooku are completely different things here. Obi-Wan was able to sense the destruction of Alderaan because billions of people suddenly just went up in smoked. A lowly meeting with Seperatists on Dooku?s part isn?t going to peek a Jedi?s senses. It isn?t going to set off a disturbance to alert them to something. How does Dooku meeting with the Seperatists create a disturbance in the Force? These are two completely different things here.[/quote] They?re both tremors in the Force. Dark Siders do give off an aura/presence, just the same as Light Siders. See Vader sensing Obi-Wan in ANH; see Luke sensing the Cave in ESB; see Vader sensing Luke and Luke sensing Vader in ESB; see Luke sensing Vader in RotJ. The OT establishes tremors in the Force in a wide variety of variations, and there?s nothing to suggest that the Dark Side was any stronger than the Jedi in the Prequels, nor anything in the Prequels to suggest that the Dark Side was clouding anything (Yoda?s comments in the Prequels are later negated by his comments in ESB. I?ve explained this earlier in my reply here.).

[quote]And where does it say that the can feel things through the Force at whatever distance? Sure they can feel intense rage/destruction/etc.. but picking out a single person who hasn?t caused a disturbance in the Force?[/quote] Where does it say that they can feel a single person who hasn't caused a disturbance in the Force?

[quote name='Empire Strikes Back']YODA: (to the invisible Ben, indicating Luke)This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away...to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing.[/quote] Luke hasn't caused any disturbance in the Force on Tatooine. He pilots a speeder incredibly well, but that's a minimal Force influence. Yoda is able to both feel and see Luke there, and Luke is as "blank" as Han is.

Dooku is considerably more "Force active" than Luke was in ANH, and since Yoda in ESB has established that the Dark Side is in fact [i]not[/i] stronger than the Light Side, which would effectively establish that the Dark Side was never truly clouding anything in the Prequels, that would mean Dooku was in fact neither hiding nor being hidden at all in the Prequels.

[quote]I know he doesn?t read everything. But what I do know is that all major things that will affect his creation go through him. He is asked if so and so is ok to kill/do etc?If it conflicts with his story, he doesn?t allow it. He didn?t allow them to kill off Luke, Han, or Leia in NJO. He wanted Anakin Solo killed in the NJO to ease confusion.

I never said he reads the entire EU. All I have said is that he approves/disapproves things that may or may not conflict with his story. He isn?t going to allow something drastic to happen if it changes his story.

We [i]can[/i] look to the EU for accuracy. We know he won?t allow major changes to occur to his story. And your link on canon only strengthens that we can take the EU into consideration. The first three form an overall continuity. [b]Until something in the books is contradicted by a line/scene in the Star Wars movies, it is just as much free game as the movies themselves[/b]. Then we can say that whatever part of the EU is inaccurate/non-canon. We have seen this before with the original dates of the Clone Wars mentioned in [i]The Thrawn Trilogy[/i].

So it ultimately boils down to this. Until something in the movies directly contradicts what is said in the book(s) it is canon, and can be safely assumed so, regardless of whether or not Lucas doesn?t ready every single EU piece out there.[/quote] I?ve bolded the line I?m specifically focusing on. Please see my above comments regarding Yoda?s dialogue in ESB. You say we?ve seen EU inaccuracy before with The Thrawn Trilogy, so it?s very possible there?s more of it that?s also inaccurate. It?s not unheard of, after all.

[quote]We all ready know that the Jedi know that politicians are not to be trusted. But had they known the [i]true[/i] Palpatine, they would have acted no doubt. Slowly they began to realize things were happening for a reason. As they slowly see what is going on they begin to suspect that Palpatine is more than he is. He is a clever politcian yes. But he is also a powerful Dark Side user able to manipulate things to go his way. Who is to say that he isn?t manipulating certain events/people on the home front to get his way? Had he not been a powerful Sith Lord, he would not have blockaded Naboo, etc?Many, many things that Palpatine, the politician, did were results of him manipulating events in his favor with the help of the Dark Side.[/quote] Zeta, entire systems allying themselves with the Separatists, immediately after the Trade Federation pulls the stunt they did, with a peculiar similarity between the Separatist allies? forces and the Trade Federation droid armies, all the while with Senators that just happen to start viciously bickering in the Senate, divided into essentially two major sides? Common sense would dictate something is going on here. Common sense would dictate that everything is just too timely to be purely coincidental. Common sense would dictate there?s some sinister political maneuvering going on.

The Dark Side doesn?t factor in here. The Light Side doesn?t factor in here. The Force itself doesn?t even factor in here. Force presence doesn?t factor in here.

What does factor in here is just plain and simple, pure common sense.

I?d like to return the focus to a previous point I made, too:

[quote=Siren] It's not coincidence that the Separatists want to secede from the Republic shortly after there's such dissention among the Senators, after it's obvious there's a Sith presence, after the Trade Federation's stunt on Naboo. The fact that there were battle droids in the Trade Federation's army and the Separatists ally themselves with the Techno Union?

Maybe it's just me, but that's too big of a warning flag that there's something sneaky going on in the political arena to just chalk it up to simple coincidence. One doesn't even need Force Attunement to smell a rat there.

Jedi can sense deception? I'm sure they can, what with that whole "missing the big, fricking, red, flashing light" thing there, lol. It's just a matter of reading between the lines.[/quote] Your response to the above was the following:

[quote name='Zeta']This all once again comes down to the Dark Side clouding everything.[/quote]

The Dark Side has absolutely nothing to do with the Jedi inability to figure out that those events weren?t coincidental, Zeta. You don?t need to use the Force by any stretch of the imagination to know that a pro-Republican columnist for the New York Times getting paid by the Bush administration to write his column is a conflict of interests and something that should raise eyebrows. Same thing applies here. You don?t need to use the Force at all to know something is happening behind the scenes when there?s that type of progression going on in a political arena. The Dark Side has nothing to do with that. It?s just incompetence when someone can?t see such a transparent political maneuver like that.

[quote]How does him choosing to not fully embrace the Dark Side and kill his father, [i]not[/i] show an inclination towards the Light Side?[/QUOTE] You mean the act of self-preservation? It wasn?t Altruism, Zeta. It was an act focused purely on Luke himself, in an almost selfish fashion. Remember the mechanical hand? Luke kills Vader, he kills himself, just like we saw in the cave on Dagobah.

And if he wanted to bring balance to the Force, he would have had to end the Jedi bloodline entirely, by killing Vader, Palpatine, and [i]himself[/i]. [i]That[/i] would have been a Light Side inclinati[font=Verdana]on, through self-sacrifice to bring peace to the greater good.

[/font] [font=Verdana]But he doesn?t sacrifice himself, so what do we get at the end, for one of the final shots of the film? A family portrait, essentially, with Han in the center as the father figure and Luke, Leia & CO. off to the right, which is an unbalanced shot composition. The Force is all about balance and Luke has just unbalanced the entire thing, and lack of balance is what led to the chaos in the Prequels?so I don?t think the New Order has the hope that the EU texts give it.

[/font] [center][font=Verdana]*******[/font]
[/center]
[font=Verdana]
I'm separating this from the rest, because I want to mention it separately from everything else.

You've been asking in nearly every reply where in the films is something [i]said[/i]. It's a film, Zeta. They're not going to be [i]telling[/i] you everything about what's going on. It's one of the golden rules of cinema and screenwriting: Show don't tell.

They're not going to come out, face the camera, and tell you the Jedi can't sense jack-****. They're going to [i]show[/i] it...and they do show it, throughout the NT and OT.

Everything isn't going to be handed to you, nor spoonfed to you, in Star Wars. Compared to other films, Star Wars seems pretty light and airy, but it does require the viewer to pay attention to everything going on. The dialogue is certainly important, but it's also everything around the dialogue, as well.
[/font]

[Zeta]

[quote] The Council is so confident in their own abilities that they never entertain the idea that perhaps the failure to sense disturbances in the Force is not the workings of the Dark Side, instead a fundamental failure in their own personal approaches. "The Dark Side clouds everything" is a self-assurance more than anything else...a self-assurance that it's really not the Council's fault (when it really is, because all along, they were the ones ultimately limiting their own perceptions, just like Big Bob).[/quote]

Which is why I said earlier that it is a combination of the Dark Side, and the Jedi?s own fault in their approach to their teachings/fundamental beliefs. You combine the two and you have the Jedi being blind. Not 100% their fault, but they do play a part in their own inability to sense Palpatine, which I have said before.

[quote] You ask why Yoda was able to sense Dooku's Dark Side when he faced him in front of Anakin and Obi-Wan? He sensed the Dark Side because he finally opened his eyes.[/quote]

If he had suddenly opened his eyes, you would think that he would have even opened them more afterwards and have been able to sense Palpatine, no?

[quote] As I understand it, there are novels that deal specifically with ways Palpatine keeps himself alive through cloning and life transfer techniques exclusive to the Dark Side. With this technique, Palpatine can keep himself alive forever (and continue to wreak havoc in post-RotJ EU texts). But there is never any mention made of any Light Side powers/abilities of this magnitude in the films themselves, so Palpatine possessing these abilities would significantly tilt the strength of the Force in the Dark Side?s favor.[/quote]

This is his way of returning to life. The parallel to this for the Jedi is their ability to come back as ?ghosts?. He comes back in the flesh. Jedi come back as a spirit, more powerful than they were before death.

[quote] The same is said for his ?Battle Meditation? (the EU supposition of how the Imperial Navy was so powerful). The success and strength of the Imperial Navy, according to EU supposition, is largely in part due to Palpatine ?inspiring? the troops and boosting their abilities through Dark Side powers.[/quote]

Bastila and her Battle Mediation in KOTOR. Jacen and his Battle Meditation in the NJO. It isn?t an exclusive power to the Dark Side.

[quote] Luke hasn't caused any disturbance in the Force on Tatooine. He pilots a speeder incredibly well, but that's a minimal Force influence. Yoda is able to both feel and see Luke there, and Luke is as "blank" as Han is.

Dooku is considerably more "Force active" than Luke was in ANH, and since Yoda in ESB has established that the Dark Side is in fact not stronger than the Light Side, which would effectively establish that the Dark Side was never truly clouding anything in the Prequels, that would mean Dooku was in fact neither hiding nor being hidden at all in the Prequels.[/quote]

The fundamental difference here is that Yoda [i]knew[/i] the whole story behind Luke. He was informed of where he was hidden. And naturally he will have concentrated and focused on him, to watch over him.

But, Yoda had no reason to be looking out for Dooku. He had no reason to reach out and search out Dooku. Because as far as Yoda and the Council were concerned, he was just a Jedi unhappy with the workings of the Republic.

[quote] I?ve bolded the line I?m specifically focusing on. Please see my above comments regarding Yoda?s dialogue in ESB. You say we?ve seen EU inaccuracy before with The Thrawn Trilogy, so it?s very possible there?s more of it that?s also inaccurate. It?s not unheard of, after all.[/quote]

I know, lol. I never said it was completely accurate. But what are you claiming that is inaccurate? The Jedi?s ability to sense deception? Palpatine?s ability to mask himself to the Jedi? Neither have been discounted from the movies yet. So we can safely believe that the Jedi can sense deception. And we can safely assume that Palpatine can be hiding himself from the Jedi.

[quote] Zeta, entire systems allying themselves with the Separatists, immediately after the Trade Federation pulls the stunt they did, with a peculiar similarity between the Separatist allies? forces and the Trade Federation droid armies, all the while with Senators that just happen to start viciously bickering in the Senate, divided into essentially two major sides? Common sense would dictate something is going on here. Common sense would dictate that everything is just too timely to be purely coincidental. Common sense would dictate there?s some sinister political maneuvering going on.

The Dark Side doesn?t factor in here. The Light Side doesn?t factor in here. The Force itself doesn?t even factor in here. Force presence doesn?t factor in here.[/quote]

Would Palpatine have instigated his blockade of Naboo if he were Force blind? Highly unlikely. Would he have had a leader for a Seperatist faction were it not for the Force? No.

Everything he does boils down to the Force. We see in TPM him say something along the lines of ?everything is going as I have foreseen.? Were he just a normal, everyday senator, it is highly unlikely he would have been able to instigate a blockade of Naboo and stay anonymous, or have a leader for a Seperatist movement, assuming he was even able to get that far.

[quote] The Dark Side has absolutely nothing to do with the Jedi inability to figure out that those events weren?t coincidental, Zeta. You don?t need to use the Force by any stretch of the imagination to know that a pro-Republican columnist for the New York Times getting paid by the Bush administration to write his column is a conflict of interests and something that should raise eyebrows. Same thing applies here. You don?t need to use the Force at all to know something is happening behind the scenes when there?s that type of progression going on in a political arena. The Dark Side has nothing to do with that. It?s just incompetence when someone can?t see such a transparent political maneuver like that.[/quote]

Why can?t it be attributed to the Dark Side clouding everything? Palpatine is right there in front of them. Why can?t this all be clouded together in a way that doesn?t seem sinister? But we can see that the Jedi do suspect something deeper is going on.

They don?t know which Sith they have killed, master or apprentice. And without Sidious making himself visible to anyone, they have no way of finding out who they have killed. So for all they know, they could have killed the Master. A very big mistake on their part yes, but the Jedi are not 100% to blame as you make them out to be.

We see Yoda taking suspicious glances towards Palpatine early on in AOTC. We see them start to investigate the matter full in AOTC. Civil wars are a common thing for all countries/peoples and there is no reason to assume this is any difference. They are seeing it as the galaxy just entering a Civil War, with nothing sinister behind it.

[quote] You mean the act of self-preservation? It wasn?t Altruism, Zeta. It was an act focused purely on Luke himself, in an almost selfish fashion. Remember the mechanical hand? Luke kills Vader, he kills himself, just like we saw in the cave on Dagobah.

And if he wanted to bring balance to the Force, he would have had to end the Jedi bloodline entirely, by killing Vader, Palpatine, and himself. That would have been a Light Side inclination, through self-sacrifice to bring peace to the greater good.

But he doesn?t sacrifice himself, so what do we get at the end, for one of the final shots of the film? A family portrait, essentially, with Han in the center as the father figure and Luke, Leia & CO. off to the right, which is an unbalanced shot composition. The Force is all about balance and Luke has just unbalanced the entire thing, and lack of balance is what led to the chaos in the Prequels?so I don?t think the New Order has the hope that the EU texts give it.[/quote]

The Force isn?t unbalanced. Anakin brought the Force into balance by killing Palpatine. Lucas himself has said this. So the Force is not unbalanced, but balanced.

[quote] You've been asking in nearly every reply where in the films is something said. It's a film, Zeta. They're not going to be telling you everything about what's going on. It's one of the golden rules of cinema and screenwriting: Show don't tell.[/quote]

Me:

[i] The dark side is a powerful tool on Palpatine's side. He could easily block the creation of the Clone Army. But the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense the dark side in Palpatine is the fault of the Council themselves. They have been Sith free for 1000 years. They are ignorant of the fact that the Sith are still out there, and have let their teachings show. [/i]

You:

[i] The problem with your supposition that Palpatine might have been using the Dark Side of the Force to "block" the Council is that there's nothing in Episodes I and II, or in the script to Episode III, to indicate that. I can't recall one instance of anything being said that would relate to that.[/i]

You are asking me where does it say that Palpatine can ?block? himself from the Council in the movie. It doesn?t specifically say it, just as some of the things you have been saying are not specifically said or shown in the movie. So that is why I am asking you where it says it in the movie.

Though I guess I should have said ?where does it show/say in the movie.? My apologies if it came out as me looking for only dialogue.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Which is why I said earlier that it is a combination of the Dark Side, and the Jedi?s own fault in their approach to their teachings/fundamental beliefs. You combine the two and you have the Jedi being blind. Not 100% their fault, but they do play a part in their own inability to sense Palpatine, which I have said before.[/quote] But it isn't a combination of anything. Had the Jedi not been so arrogant, Palpatine would have never had the opportunity. It all still ultimately boils down to the Jedi being solely at fault here. Plus, there still is no concrete evidence you've raised [b]from the films[/b] that would indicate beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Dark Side played a part in anything.

[quote]If he had suddenly opened his eyes, you would think that he would have even opened them more afterwards and have been able to sense Palpatine, no?[/quote] Read the script to Episode III. For that matter, pay close attention to the Post-Dooku Yoda and compare him to the Pre-Dooku Yoda. Distinct differences in approach and attitude. Yoda goes through a transformation after squaring off with Dooku. This explains why he is so much more humble in ESB, and so much more in-tune with the true nature of things post-NT. He realizes that he and the Jedi Council were wrong in the Prequels.

[quote]This is his way of returning to life. The parallel to this for the Jedi is their ability to come back as ?ghosts?. He comes back in the flesh. Jedi come back as a spirit, more powerful than they were before death.[/quote] And again, there's no indication at all in the [b][u]films[/u][/b] that there are little Palpatine clones running around. It's the same Emperor all the way through. All that EU Palpy Cloning material is doing is filling in a gap that was never there to begin with.

And in the EU post-RotJ, as I've come to understand it, Palpy also has a Force Spirit of sorts, because he possesses various characters. Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I do recall various EU texts that echo ideas like The Exorcist, The Shining, and Amityville Horror.

So, not only does Palpy (according to the EU) possess life-transfer abilities, he also possesses the Force Spirit ability of the Light Side Jedi (and an even more powerful Force Spirit than theirs, at that), which would mean the Dark Side is definitely more powerful, [b][i]which is contradicted by what Yoda says in ESB[/i][/b].

[quote]Bastila and her Battle Mediation in KOTOR. Jacen and his Battle Meditation in the NJO. It isn?t an exclusive power to the Dark Side.[/quote] Yes, EU, when there's absolutely no indication at all in the [b][u]films[/u][/b] that Palpatine was powering the Imperial Navy with the Dark Side of the Force. The films indicate (i.e. [b]SHOW[/b], lol) that the Imperial Navy was so powerful because they had fantastic leadership, devastating weaponry, and unprecedented organization. Tarkin was a think-tank. Vader was a powerhouse. Palpatine was a brilliant commander-in-chief. The Imperial Navy steamrolled because they had the tools and the talent, simple as that.

[quote]The fundamental difference here is that Yoda [i]knew[/i] the whole story behind Luke. He was informed of where he was hidden. And naturally he will have concentrated and focused on him, to watch over him.

But, Yoda had no reason to be looking out for Dooku. He had no reason to reach out and search out Dooku. Because as far as Yoda and the Council were concerned, he was just a Jedi unhappy with the workings of the Republic.[/quote] Actually, I think he certainly had a reason to be searching for Dooku, because with the timely appearance of the Separatist movement, I think it'd certainly be prudent to keep an eye on the leader, especially considering what has happened in the past five years.

The Jedi want to fight to keep the Old Republic together. Dooku is the leader of the movement that wants to break away from the Old Republic. I think that's reason enough to search for him through any means necessary. It's common sense to want to keep tabs on the leaders of opposing armies/factions.

And why isn't it possible that Yoda knows of Dooku, and knows of his story? Yoda is on the Jedi Council, after all, and Dooku was once a Jedi who left the Order. It's not some huge secret that Dooku wasn't pleased with both the Old Republic [i]and[/i] the Jedi Order. Why wouldn't Yoda & CO. try to keep tabs on what he's doing? It'd be common sense to keep an eye on him. After all, he [i]is[/i] trying to organize a mini-Rebellion of sorts.

[quote]I know, lol. I never said it was completely accurate. But what are you claiming that is inaccurate? [b]The Jedi?s ability to sense deception[/b]? [b]Palpatine?s ability to mask himself to the Jedi[/b]? [b]Neither have been discounted from the movies yet[/b]. So we can safely believe that the Jedi can sense deception. And we can safely assume that Palpatine can be hiding himself from the Jedi.[/quote] Again, I'm referring to [b]Empire Strikes Back[/b], Zeta. Why would Yoda have discounted the idea that the Dark Side was stronger if it really was? You have been blaming the Dark Side for the Jedi inability to sense deception, for the Jedi inability to sense Palpatine, but you never seem to consider Yoda?s dialogue in Empire Strikes Back, where he [b][u]clearly states[/u][/b] that the Dark Side is not stronger. Yoda says this many years after Episode III, so he has had a nice chunk of time to reflect on what happened.

[quote]Would Palpatine have instigated his blockade of Naboo if he were Force blind? Highly unlikely. Would he have had a leader for a Seperatist faction were it not for the Force? No.

Everything he does boils down to the Force. We see in TPM him say something along the lines of ?everything is going as I have foreseen.? Were he just a normal, everyday senator, it is highly unlikely he would have been able to instigate a blockade of Naboo and stay anonymous, or have a leader for a Seperatist movement, assuming he was even able to get that far.[/quote] So you're saying that it would be utterly impossible for "normal" Senators to do what Palpatine was doing? Palpatine was a brilliant strategist. That had nothing to do with his being a Force user. Yes, "I have foreseen" is something we hear from Force users throughout the films, but it would be impossible for a "normal" Senator to not be able to predict things? It's not as if the Senate was some huge, complicated and twisted conundrum that defied all the laws and rules of human (and alien) behavior and desire. When you know how to manipulate people (even strictly non-Force techniques), you can get a lot of what you want. Manipulation and suggestion isn't some massive Dark Side technique, nor is political observation, nor is political maneuvering.

[quote]Why can?t it be attributed to the Dark Side clouding everything?[/quote]
I wanted to isolate this one statement. If you were a JEDI MASTER, who believed yourself to be the pinnacle of Force wielders, who believed yourself to be able to see and know everything, who was so confident in your own abilities that you had begun elevating yourself above those around you...why would you not believe that some external force was to blame for your failures? Why wouldn't you blame yourself? I think the fact that the Council does ultimately blame themselves (various Jedi now and again in AOTC, Episode III; Yoda in ESB) is testament to how inaccurate their initial comments of the "Dark Side clouding everything" were.

[quote]Why can?t this all be clouded together in a way that doesn?t seem sinister?[/quote] I wanted to isolate this sentence as well. It [i]can[/i] be clouded in a way that isn?t sinister. What I?ve been saying all along is things are clouded in a way that isn?t sinister at all?that the Jedi Council themselves are clouding themselves.

[quote]But we can see that the Jedi do suspect something deeper is going on.

They don?t know which Sith they have killed, master or apprentice. And without Sidious making himself visible to anyone, they have no way of finding out who they have killed. So for all they know, they could have killed the Master. A very big mistake on their part yes, but the Jedi are not 100% to blame as you make them out to be.

[b]We see Yoda taking suspicious glances towards Palpatine early on in AOTC[/b]. We see them start to investigate the matter full in AOTC. Civil wars are a common thing for all countries/peoples and there is no reason to assume this is any difference. They are seeing it as the galaxy just entering a Civil War, with nothing sinister behind it.[/quote] I've bolded an interesting sentence. That seems to be pretty clear evidence that Palpatine wasn't hiding himself. If Palpatine were shrouded so heavily in the Dark Side, Yoda wouldn't even have sent those glances his way. You've said how the Dark Side doesn't choose when/where/how/who/etc. it clouds (it just clouds everything, all the time), so if there are moments where Yoda and others catch whiffs of something unusual about Palpatine, isn't that evidence that there in fact isn't anything being clouded by Palpatine or the Dark Side?

There are times where the Jedi Council has glimpses of something not being right with what?s going on, so if the Dark Side doesn?t choose what it clouds, it should be clouding everything, which would mean Yoda & CO. would never have any of those little glimpses?but they do. Is that a sign of the Dark Side or Palpatine clouding everything? Or is more a sign that there are no external forces at work?

We only hear of the Dark Side clouding things from the Jedi Council themselves, and we have no reason to trust anything they say there, because Yoda does in fact negate the implications of the "Dark Side clouds everything" line from what he says in ESB. You keep asking me why everything can't just be clouded? Think of the simplest answer here: that nothing is being clouded.

[quote]The Force isn?t unbalanced. Anakin brought the Force into balance by killing Palpatine. Lucas himself has said this. So the Force is not unbalanced, but balanced.[/quote] So by "balanced," you mean a less-than-Gray/leaning-Dark Jedi and his Force Sensitive twin sister being the only two remaining Force Sensitives in the entire galaxy? The Force being balanced is an essentially Dark Side Jedi (Luke) and his barely Force-awakened sister (Leia)?

Balance is a push-and-pull, give-and-take, two sides that aren't stronger than each other.

Do you believe Luke and Leia to be equally matched? Do you believe Anakin/Vader and Palpatine to have been equally matched? The Force being balanced would entail Force users of equal strength on opposite sides of the Light/Dark duality or if that isn?t the case, then no Force users at all, meaning, all Force users are dead. Palpatine is definitely more powerful than Luke and Vader/Anakin; that much is clear from the Finale in RotJ.

Palpatine dies, so does Vader/Anakin. That wasn't a "fair trade," lol. That wasn't balance. The Force is still unbalanced, because Luke didn't sacrifice himself. One side of the Force (whichever side Luke is actually on) still has a powerful Force user.

The ending is anything but balanced. If Lucas defines ?the Force being balanced? by all the major villain Force users getting killed and most of the major hero Force users surviving?that?s not balance. That becomes one side of the Force having a heavier weight than the other side. Balanced? Not a snowball?s chance in hell.

[quote]Me:

[i]The dark side is a powerful tool on Palpatine's side. He could easily block the creation of the Clone Army. But the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense the dark side in Palpatine is the fault of the Council themselves. They have been Sith free for 1000 years. They are ignorant of the fact that the Sith are still out there, and have let their teachings show. [/i]

You:

[i]The problem with your supposition that Palpatine might have been using the Dark Side of the Force to "block" the Council is that there's nothing in Episodes I and II, or in the script to Episode III, to indicate that. I can't recall one instance of anything being said that would relate to that.[/i]

You are asking me where does it say that Palpatine can ?block? himself from the Council in the movie. It doesn?t specifically say it, just as some of the things you have been saying are not specifically said or shown in the movie. So that is why I am asking you where it says it in the movie.

Though I guess I should have said ?where does it show/say in the movie.? My apologies if it came out as me looking for only dialogue.[/QUOTE] Where does it [b][i]show[/i][/b] it, then? There is no solid indication at all that Palpatine is hiding himself at all. We only have what we see happening in the films, and what the Jedi Council attribute things to, and...I'm less inclined to trust what the Jedi Council is saying, based on what I've been repeating ad nauseum regarding blame shifting and so forth (PLEASANTVILLE).

[Dragon Warrior]

After reading a sexy article in Entertainment magazine, I was pleased to see there are a whole load of Wookies in this upcoming film, including Chewy. I was already aware of them being in it, but it still pleases me to know the sources I previously had were true. It was also interesting to hear about Chewbacca's appearance. They had to make the whole new costume for the actor with lighter hair (because it seems wookie hair grows darker with age) since he is, obviously, younger.

There. I wanted to contribute :( I feel so primitive here now.

[img]http://img131.exs.cx/img131/8930/dwwashere9rz.gif[/img]

[Zeta]

[quote] But it isn't a combination of anything. Had the Jedi not been so arrogant, Palpatine would have never had the opportunity. It all still ultimately boils down to the Jedi being solely at fault here. Plus, there still is no concrete evidence you've raised from the films that would indicate beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Dark Side played a part in anything.[/quote]

Show me where in the films that it discredits this.

[quote] Read the script to Episode III. For that matter, pay close attention to the Post-Dooku Yoda and compare him to the Pre-Dooku Yoda. Distinct differences in approach and attitude. Yoda goes through a transformation after squaring off with Dooku. This explains why he is so much more humble in ESB, and so much more in-tune with the true nature of things post-NT. He realizes that he and the Jedi Council were wrong in the Prequels.[/quote]

Even if I do get the time to read it fully, I will not take it into account in this discussion. Regardless of whether it seems legit to you, we do not know for a fact it is legit.

[quote] And again, there's no indication at all in the films that there are little Palpatine clones running around. It's the same Emperor all the way through. All that EU Palpy Cloning material is doing is filling in a gap that was never there to begin with.

And in the EU post-RotJ, as I've come to understand it, Palpy also has a Force Spirit of sorts, because he possesses various characters. Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I do recall various EU texts that echo ideas like The Exorcist, The Shining, and Amityville Horror.

So, not only does Palpy (according to the EU) possess life-transfer abilities, he also possesses the Force Spirit ability of the Light Side Jedi (and an even more powerful Force Spirit than theirs, at that), which would mean the Dark Side is definitely more powerful, which is contradicted by what Yoda says in ESB.[/quote]

How does it indicate the Dark Side is stronger? He has the same ability as the Jedi. Making them equal you could say. He just comes back into a living body, that is ultimately destroyed [i]every[/i] single time. He cans till be defeated, ultimately making him weaker, whereas a ?ghost? Jedi cannot.

[quote] Yes, EU, when there's absolutely no indication at all in the films that Palpatine was powering the Imperial Navy with the Dark Side of the Force. The films indicate (i.e. SHOW, lol) that the Imperial Navy was so powerful because they had fantastic leadership, devastating weaponry, and unprecedented organization. Tarkin was a think-tank. Vader was a powerhouse. Palpatine was a brilliant commander-in-chief. The Imperial Navy steamrolled because they had the tools and the talent, simple as that.[/quote]

1) It isn?t a stated, absolute fact. It is a theory among characters in the EU, which I happen to believe.
Look at how fast the Empire falls apart after his death. They are reduced to nothing. A small, insignificant Rebellion pushed them to a small chunk of the Outer Rim.

2) Again, show me evidence from the film that discredits this theory. You provided the link that said all EU is canon, unless it contradicts the movies. This doesn?t contradict anything in the movie.

[quote] And why isn't it possible that Yoda knows of Dooku, and knows of his story? Yoda is on the Jedi Council, after all, and Dooku was once a Jedi who left the Order. It's not some huge secret that Dooku wasn't pleased with both the Old Republic and the Jedi Order. Why wouldn't Yoda & CO. try to keep tabs on what he's doing? It'd be common sense to keep an eye on him. After all, he is trying to organize a mini-Rebellion of sorts.[/quote]

There have been twenty different Jedi that have left the Order. All to their own devices. (I myself am curious as to who they are.) They were unhappy with the Jedi Order as well. The corruption within the Republic has been going on for possibly decades. They could be unhappy with that as well. We know that Qui-Gon was also unhappy with the Republic, and defied the Council..

It isn?t a common occurrence as what some Jedi?s feelings are about the Republic and Jedi. They viewed Dooku as just another one of these men, who was just acting upon his feelings. This doesn?t mean he was automatically turned to the Dark Side. We know what their feelings about him are from what Ki-Adi Mundi (is it Mundi?) said about him being a political idealist, not a murder. Just because he is leading a movement, doesn?t me he is automatically Dark Side.

[quote] Again, I'm referring to Empire Strikes Back, Zeta. Why would Yoda have discounted the idea that the Dark Side was stronger if it really was? You have been blaming the Dark Side for the Jedi inability to sense deception, for the Jedi inability to sense Palpatine, but you never seem to consider Yoda?s dialogue in Empire Strikes Back, where he clearly states that the Dark Side is not stronger. Yoda says this many years after Episode III, so he has had a nice chunk of time to reflect on what happened.[/quote]

I have been blaming [b]both[/b] the Dark Side and the Jedi themselves.

[quote] So you're saying that it would be utterly impossible for "normal" Senators to do what Palpatine was doing? Palpatine was a brilliant strategist. That had nothing to do with his being a Force user. Yes, "I have foreseen" is something we hear from Force users throughout the films, but it would be impossible for a "normal" Senator to not be able to predict things? It's not as if the Senate was some huge, complicated and twisted conundrum that defied all the laws and rules of human (and alien) behavior and desire. When you know how to manipulate people (even strictly non-Force techniques), you can get a lot of what you want. Manipulation and suggestion isn't some massive Dark Side technique, nor is political observation, nor is political maneuvering.[/quote]

But would you actually think that one lowly Senator could pull off all the things that Palpatine did? The mere fact alone of a Senator even thinking of blockading a planet for his own devices would spread extremely fast in such a corrupt governmental system as that of the Republic. It wouldn?t have even gotten off the ground. Imagine if Palpatine himself had contacted the Neimoidians. The Trade Federation wouldn?t have even moved a ship if they knew it was just a Senator, and not some powerful Sith Lord.

[quote] I wanted to isolate this one statement. If you were a JEDI MASTER, who believed yourself to be the pinnacle of Force wielders, who believed yourself to be able to see and know everything, who was so confident in your own abilities that you had begun elevating yourself above those around you...why would you not believe that some external force was to blame for your failures? Why wouldn't you blame yourself? I think the fact that the Council does ultimately blame themselves (various Jedi now and again in AOTC, Episode III; Yoda in ESB) is testament to how inaccurate their initial comments of the "Dark Side clouding everything" were.[/quote]

Yoda also said that the Jedi were blind, if they failed to see the creation of the Clone Army. They obviously don?t give all the blame to the Dark Side. Neither do I, as I have said countless times.

[quote] I've bolded an interesting sentence. That seems to be pretty clear evidence that Palpatine wasn't hiding himself. If Palpatine were shrouded so heavily in the Dark Side, Yoda wouldn't even have sent those glances his way. You've said how the Dark Side doesn't choose when/where/how/who/etc. it clouds (it just clouds everything, all the time), so if there are moments where Yoda and others catch whiffs of something unusual about Palpatine, isn't that evidence that there in fact isn't anything being clouded by Palpatine or the Dark Side?

There are times where the Jedi Council has glimpses of something not being right with what?s going on, so if the Dark Side doesn?t choose what it clouds, it should be clouding everything, which would mean Yoda & CO. would never have any of those little glimpses?but they do. Is that a sign of the Dark Side or Palpatine clouding everything? Or is more a sign that there are no external forces at work?

We only hear of the Dark Side clouding things from the Jedi Council themselves, and we have no reason to trust anything they say there, because Yoda does in fact negate the implications of the "Dark Side clouds everything" line from what he says in ESB. You keep asking me why everything can't just be clouded? Think of the simplest answer here: that nothing is being clouded.[/quote]

No, it just shows that the Jedi are becoming aware themselves. Just like I have been saying, it is both the Dark Side, and the Jedi?s fault for them being oblivious to Palpatine. As the Jedi become more aware (stronger), they can see past the less powerful Dark Side. It is the fault of both parties, as I have said all along.

It doesn't stop everything from being clouded. But as the Jedi become stonger, they can overcome the "cloudiness", because the Light Side is stronger than the Dark Side. It is still there of course, but since they are stronger than the Dark Side, it will not affect them as much or at all.

[quote] So by "balanced," you mean a less-than-Gray/leaning-Dark Jedi and his Force Sensitive twin sister being the only two remaining Force Sensitives in the entire galaxy? The Force being balanced is an essentially Dark Side Jedi (Luke) and his barely Force-awakened sister (Leia)?[/quote]

Hey man, if you are willing to take Lucas? own words from the films into account, but not what he specifically says about this instance, go for it. But it is his story. And if he says the Force is balanced, it is, regardless of what you are interpreting from the films.

[quote] Where does it show it, then? There is no solid indication at all that Palpatine is hiding himself at all. We only have what we see happening in the films, and what the Jedi Council attribute things to, and...I'm less inclined to trust what the Jedi Council is saying, based on what I've been repeating ad nauseum regarding blame shifting and so forth (PLEASANTVILLE).[/quote]

Where does it [b]show[/I] that he isn?t doing it? We know Jedi can do this. And by reading the prequel book to Episode III, you can draw the same conculsion. It doesn?t say he cannot do this in any of the films.

[i]You[/i] are the one who posted the link that said all the EU is canon unless it contradicts something in the movies/movie novelizations/etc..So far, [i]none[/i] of the things I have been saying as contradicted anything said or shown in the films. Until the movies say that Jedi cannot sense deception, that Palpatine isn?t/cannot ?mask? himself from the Jedi, we can safely assume that they can.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Show me where in the films that it discredits this.[/quote]
Empire Strikes Back. Yoda.

[quote]Even if I do get the time to read it fully, I will not take it into account in this discussion. Regardless of whether it seems legit to you, we do not know for a fact it is legit.[/quote] Empire Strikes Back. Yoda. Take that into account in this discussion.

[quote]How does it indicate the Dark Side is stronger? He has the same ability as the Jedi. Making them equal you could say. He just comes back into a living body, that is ultimately destroyed [i]every[/i] single time. He cans till be defeated, ultimately making him weaker, whereas a ?ghost? Jedi cannot.[/quote]
Zeta, how is a Light Side Jedi Force Spirit and Palpatine's Dark Side Force Possession the same ability? They aren't. Not only can Palpatine assume an other-wordly form, but he one-ups the LS Force Spirit [i]by being able to possess the living[/i]. His ability there is more powerful than the LS's, and it's established in the films that the Dark Side is not stronger than the Light Side. Again, see YODA in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

[quote]1) [u][b]It isn?t a stated, absolute fact[/b][/u]. It is a theory among characters in the EU, which I happen to believe.
Look at how fast the Empire falls apart after his death. They are reduced to nothing. A small, insignificant Rebellion pushed them to a small chunk of the Outer Rim.[/quote] Okay...so if it isn't fact, just a theory, why treat it as canon with utter relevance to this discussion?

And you do know that Tarkin is dead, that Vader is dead, that the second Death Star is destroyed, that the Imperial fleet is majorly decimated and scattered...shall I go on? Palpatine is dead, yes, but so is the powerhouse of the Empire (Vader, Tarkin, Death Star, the Executor, etc). Consider that the Empire crumbles because 80% of its heavy-hitters have been wiped out, not because of some EU text's supposition that Palpatine's Dark Side Battle Meditation went the way of the dinosaur when Palpatine did.

[quote]2) Again, show me evidence from the film that discredits this theory. You provided the link that said all EU is canon, unless it contradicts the movies. This doesn?t contradict anything in the movie.[/quote] When you've got better equipment, better soldiers, better starfighters, better technology, stronger forces, more resources...leagues of Star Destroyers, the Death Star, Tarkin, Darth Vader...I'm sure none of that had anything to do with the Empire's success.

What the EU Dark Side Battle Meditation does is imply that all of the superior technology and firepower and so forth mean absolutely nothing because Palpatine is controlling everything through the Force, to "inspire" his entire Imperial military to victory. Based on that supposition, that would mean the destruction of Alderaan was actually due to Palpatine's Battle Meditation and [i]not[/i] the Death Star's Superlaser, that the Stormtroopers taking over the Tantive IV was actually due to DS "buffing" and not there being more Stormtroopers than Rebel defenders, that the Jedi extermination in Episode III is actually due to Palpatine boosting the abilities of all of the Clone Troopers, and not just pure and simple military commands.

Am I making any sense here, Zeta? Is any of this getting through to you? I'm not trying to sound harsh here, but what that EU [i]theory[/i] does is minimize the entire might and outright technological superiority and dominance of the Imperial Navy to the point of being an incidental effect. You want to know why the Imperial forces do so well? It's because they've got better equipment, better technology, better command, better organization...better everything. It's not because of some parlor trick.

The Death Star destroys Alderaan in one shot because it's designed to, not because it's being powered by the Dark Side. Stormtroopers beatdown Rebel Scum aboard the Tantive IV because they've got numbers on their side, not because they're being powered by the Dark Side. The Clone Troopers kill Jedi in Episode III because of the element of surprise and about sixty blaster rifles, not because they're being powered by the Dark Side.

Do you get what I'm saying? The films clearly establish Imperial dominance through total, unadulterated physical force with no traces or indications of Force behind them. To say that the victories of the Empire are due only to Palpatine using the Dark Side of the Force to push his forces to victory is understating the strength of the entire Imperial military.

The DS Battle Meditation in the EU suggests that physical strength has nothing to do with the victories. That's bunk, as shown by the films themselves. The Imperial military wins (not ultimately, but for what we're talking about) because very few things can stand up against a Death Star, Super Star Destroyer, AT-AT, the blaster cannons on an AT-ST, or even something as mundane as the Death Star's trash compactor, lol.

And plus, what happens in war when you kill an opposing army's leaders? The enemy troops lose morale. It's basic human psychology. Someone in a position of power is killed, it has a negative impact on the grunt's psyche, so I don't see how the Empire falling apart after its entire commanding infrastructure collapses is indicative of one man inspiring the entire military through the Force. All it's indicative of is basic human psychology playing a rather significant part in war-time.

[quote]There have been twenty different Jedi that have left the Order. All to their own devices. (I myself am curious as to who they are.) They were unhappy with the Jedi Order as well. The corruption within the Republic has been going on for possibly decades. They could be unhappy with that as well. We know that Qui-Gon was also unhappy with the Republic, and defied the Council..

It isn?t a common occurrence as what some Jedi?s feelings are about the Republic and Jedi. They viewed Dooku as just another one of these men, who was just acting upon his feelings. This doesn?t mean he was automatically turned to the Dark Side. We know what their feelings about him are from what Ki-Adi Mundi (is it Mundi?) said about him being a political idealist, not a murder. Just because he is leading a movement, doesn?t me he is automatically Dark Side.[/quote] Who said anything about keeping tabs on him out of suspicion he may have turned to the Dark Side? I was merely speaking in a purely political sense. It just makes sense to keep track of insurgents. And had the Jedi thought to search for Dooku by whatever means necessary, his Dark Side may very well have been detected much earlier, and in time to avert the real chaos.

[quote]I have been blaming [b]both[/b] the Dark Side and the Jedi themselves.[/quote]
And what if the Dark Side wasn't to blame at all?

[quote]But would you actually think that one lowly Senator could pull off all the things that Palpatine did? The mere fact alone of a Senator even thinking of blockading a planet for his own devices would spread extremely fast in such a [b]corrupt governmental system as that of the Republic[/b].[/quote]
You've got a corrupt Senate, corrupt government in general...so you're not going to be able to get people to hush-hush by [i]bribing them[/i], or granting them special immunities, benefits, etc etc? The corrupt state of the government would only facilitate the process, regardless of who was initiating it.

[quote]Imagine if Palpatine himself had contacted the Neimoidians. The Trade Federation wouldn?t have even moved a ship if they knew it was just a Senator, and not some powerful Sith Lord.[/quote] You know the beauty of holograms? You can play dress-up and act. You can disguise your appearance, disguise your voice, etc. The Trade Federation is corrupt and driven by greed, as well, keep in mind, so appealing to what drives them the most (i.e., wealth and power) is the name of the game. The Viceroys actually express worry in dealing with a Sith Lord. If they were dealing with a "normal" Senator, they might have been even more inclined to go along with it.

[quote]Yoda also said that the Jedi were blind, if they failed to see the creation of the Clone Army. They obviously don?t give all the blame to the Dark Side. Neither do I, as I have said countless times.[/quote] And you can see the characters starting to change...minimally. They start to take some responsibility for things, but they stop short.

[quote]No, it just shows that the Jedi are becoming aware themselves. Just like I have been saying, it is both the Dark Side, and the Jedi?s fault for them being oblivious to Palpatine. As the Jedi become more aware (stronger), they can see past the less powerful Dark Side. It is the fault of both parties, as I have said all along.

It doesn't stop everything from being clouded. But as the Jedi become stonger, they can overcome the "cloudiness", because the Light Side is stronger than the Dark Side. It is still there of course, but since they are stronger than the Dark Side, it will not affect them as much or at all.[/quote] Since when is the Light Side stronger? The only difference between the Light and Dark path is the speed, as Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back: "Faster, more seductive."

[quote]Hey man, if you are willing to take Lucas? own words from the films into account, but not what he specifically says about this instance, go for it. But it is his story. And if he says the Force is balanced, it is, regardless of what you are interpreting from the films.[/quote] What's the definition of "balance," Zeta? And how is the ending to RotJ balanced? How is the Force balanced? Think about it analytically. "Balance" would entail a total even-ness in the Force...which there isn't. Luke's a more powerful Force user than Leia is, and he's Dark Side, and she's neutral. Vader/Anakin isn't as powerful as Palpatine, so there's not an equal loss there.

[quote]Where does it [b]show[/b] that he isn?t doing it? We know Jedi can do this. And by reading the prequel book to Episode III, you can draw the same conculsion. It doesn?t say he cannot do this in any of the films.[/quote] What confirmation do you have that he is? The Jedi Council? They aren't reliable. They'd sooner shift the blame than take responsibility, and they only take responsibility after some serious **** starts hitting the fan.

[quote][i]You[/i] are the one who posted the link that said all the EU is canon unless it contradicts something in the movies/movie novelizations/etc..So far, [b][i]none[/i] of the things I have been saying as contradicted anything said or shown in the films[/b]. Until the movies say that Jedi cannot sense deception, that Palpatine isn?t/cannot ?mask? himself from the Jedi, we can safely assume that they can.[/QUOTE] You've been "explaining" how the Dark Side can cloud so much, how it overpowers the Jedi (even in your reply here--the Jedi get stronger and overpower the Dark Side, implying the Dark Side was stronger to begin with), but as of this post, you still have not acknowledged what [b]YODA SAYS ABOUT THE DARK SIDE IN EMPIRE STRIKES BACK[/b].

You want to hear how the films are contradicting what you've been saying? That's how. Zeta, you're telling me how the Dark Side has this one-up on the Jedi...and that's the complete antithesis of what Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back.

Do we see or hear anything in the OT, from either Obi-Wan or Yoda, that repeats "Dark Side clouds everything"? No. In fact, where Yoda does discuss the future in the OT, he makes no mention at all of "Dark Side clouds everything." Why would he do that? Perhaps because the Dark Side doesn't cloud everything...and in the Prequels, wasn't clouding much at all, if anything.

Do we see or hear anything in the OT, from either Obi-Wan or Yoda, that would indicate Palpatine was hiding himself in the Prequels? No, we don't. In fact, the far more humble natures of Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT signify a learning process has taken place. They don't act like they blame Palpatine for what happened; they act like they blame themselves. Their actions, their dialogue...all point to that.

If, after their years of reflection, they now understand their fault in the past, and now have opened their minds much moreso than in the past, that indicates a certain...limitation in the days of old, a limitation that cost them the Republic. That limitation was their inability to realize they were getting played for fools (i.e., deceived) before it was too late.

You keep asking where it says this or that; sometimes, it does say this, but other times, you need to read between the lines. Everything is not going to be spoonfed to you, man. It's not all going to smack you in the face; every little nuance isn't going to be announced with a bullhorn.

Star Wars is a very subtle film series, despite the first glance mentality you'd see about it. There's a lot of stuff going on in the films; only half of it is visible on the surface.

EDIT:

[quote=Siren]You mean the act of self-preservation? It wasn?t Altruism, Zeta. It was an act focused purely on Luke himself, in an almost selfish fashion. Remember the mechanical hand? Luke kills Vader, he kills himself, just like we saw in the cave on Dagobah.

And if he wanted to bring balance to the Force, he would have had to end the Jedi bloodline entirely, by killing Vader, Palpatine, and himself. That would have been a Light Side inclination, through self-sacrifice to bring peace to the greater good.[/quote]
I don't think you ever touched upon that, so I'd appreciate it if you could. If you can't recall what my above quote was a reply to, you were asking why Luke not killing his father wasn't a Light Side inclination. Thank you.

[Zeta]

[quote] Zeta, how is a Light Side Jedi Force Spirit and Palpatine's Dark Side Force Possession the same ability? They aren't. Not only can Palpatine assume an other-wordly form, but he one-ups the LS Force Spirit by being able to possess the living. His ability there is more powerful than the LS's, and it's established in the films that the Dark Side is not stronger than the Light Side. Again, see YODA in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.[/quote]

How is the fact that Palpatine can die even as he does this, not a sign of being less powerful? The Jedi in ?ghost? form cannot die. Being truly immortal. But the fact that Palpatine can die only shows that the Dark Side is not more powerful than the Light Side, from the fact that he can still die.

[quote] Okay...so if it isn't fact, just a theory, why treat it as canon with utter relevance to this discussion?

And you do know that Tarkin is dead, that Vader is dead, that the second Death Star is destroyed, that the Imperial fleet is majorly decimated and scattered...shall I go on? Palpatine is dead, yes, but so is the powerhouse of the Empire (Vader, Tarkin, Death Star, the Executor, etc). Consider that the Empire crumbles because 80% of its heavy-hitters have been wiped out, not because of some EU text's supposition that Palpatine's Dark Side Battle Meditation went the way of the dinosaur when Palpatine did.[/quote]

My reply here is going to cover this, and all your other points about the Imperial Navy/might, etc..

The loss of Tarkin wasn?t that big of a loss. Look at the amazing victory they had over the Rebels at Hoth, it obviously had no effect whatsoever. The Imperial might was still strong as ever.

The loss of Palpatine and Vader would only strengthen their resolve to fight as well, no? You lose a leader/important person, you would think that they would also fight twice as hard and get revenge no?

Even with them gone, the Imperial might was twice that of the Rebels. Had the Imperials had competent generals they would have been able to continue their fight. They are having the butts handed to them on a platter after the Emperors defeat, even with their impressive military might, that they still possessed even after the Emperors death.

The size of the military didn?t help them. They had more great leaders than Tarkin, Palpatine, and Vader. Yet they still crumbled, even with their superior firepower, manpower, etc..

[quote] And what if the Dark Side wasn't to blame at all?[/quote]

How is it not to blame at all? It doesn?t say/show this in the movies.

[quote] You've got a corrupt Senate, corrupt government in general...so you're not going to be able to get people to hush-hush by bribing them, or granting them special immunities, benefits, etc etc? The corrupt state of the government would only facilitate the process, regardless of who was initiating it.[/quote]

The whole of the Senate is not corrupt. We see this with the fact that Padme diehard pro-Senate, without corruption in her midst. Not all can be bribed.

[quote] You know the beauty of holograms? You can play dress-up and act. You can disguise your appearance, disguise your voice, etc. The Trade Federation is corrupt and driven by greed, as well, keep in mind, so appealing to what drives them the most (i.e., wealth and power) is the name of the game. The Viceroys actually express worry in dealing with a Sith Lord. If they were dealing with a "normal" Senator, they might have been even more inclined to go along with it.[/quote]

They expressed worry yes. But without a Sith Lord, they would have no assurances that their victory could be completely successfully. We all ready see Palpatine himself being surprised at events playing out. Imagine all the things that a lowly Senator would not know about happening. Things that would not play in his favor. Lets just say that a plain ole? Senator managed to get all the way through the Naboo blockaded, and ultimately failing. Would you honestly believe it would progress any farther? With Nute Gunray on trial he would immediately rat out his benefactor. He never did this with Sidious because he was [i]afraid[/i] of him. They would have no reason to be afraid of a lowly Senator.

[quote] Since when is the Light Side stronger? The only difference between the Light and Dark path is the speed, as Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back: "Faster, more seductive."[/quote]

Since when does it say it is not stronger?

[quote] What's the definition of "balance," Zeta? And how is the ending to RotJ balanced? How is the Force balanced? Think about it analytically. "Balance" would entail a total even-ness in the Force...which there isn't. Luke's a more powerful Force user than Leia is, and he's Dark Side, and she's neutral. Vader/Anakin isn't as powerful as Palpatine, so there's not an equal loss there.[/quote]

I do not care what you see the movie as Siren, plain and simple. Regardless of whether the clothes are still black or what not. I am taking Lucas? own words over your interpretations. If he says the Force is in brought into balance with Anakin killing Palpatine, then it is, regardless of what you interpret. His words take precedence over your interpretations.

[quote] Do we see or hear anything in the OT, from either Obi-Wan or Yoda, that repeats "Dark Side clouds everything"?[/quote]

Do we hear them say anything about midi-chlorines? No. Things that are said in the prequels don?t have to be said in the OT.

I am also going to reply to your things after, without quoting them.

Yes they have gone through a learning process. Yes they have realized that is was their own faults. Yes they realized that they have been played for fools.

But, if they had had the proper teachings and fundamental beliefs that they were not all powerful, the Dark Side would not have gone unnoticed. They would have been able to sense it immediately. Their weakness allowed the Dark Side to ?overpower? what little the Jedi had. This still doesn?t imply that the Dark Side is stronger in anyway. The Jedi still have the ability to be stronger, to realize the truth of what was happening. But they didn?t. They were hell bent on believing that they were all powerful.

Which is why the Dark Side had such a profound effect on their ability to use the Force. It is the fault of both sides here Siren. Had the Jedi not been lack in the ways of life and beliefs, the Dark Side would never have gained a foothold. But, the Dark Side did gain a foothold, clouding things and diminishing the Jedi?s ability to use the Force.

[quote]
I don't think you ever touched upon that, so I'd appreciate it if you could. If you can't recall what my above quote was a reply to, you were asking why Luke not killing his father wasn't a Light Side inclination. Thank you.[/quote]

What would have happened if Luke at killed his father? Would he have literally killed himself? I think not. But would he have turned to the Dark Side if he did? Most definitely. He would have killed his father with hatred, fulfilling his destiny and joining Palpatine, aka the Dark Side. But the fact that he chose not to kill his father, proved he will not embrace the Dark Side. If he were Dark Side, he would have easily killed his father. But he doesn?t. He chooses to let this murderous, Dark Side monstrosity live. It is as much as self-survival as it is showing an inclination towards the Light Side.

Killing Vader = Killing himself in the way that he would be the last of the Jedi and would join with the Sith, losing whatever identity he had beforehand. And the Force would remain unbalanced with the Sith ruling the galaxy, possibly for eternity.

Not killing Vader = Luke beginning the throw off the Dark Side that has taken root into him, and starting on his path to the Light Side, ensuring the survival of the Jedi and his own survival.


I am going to make clear on what I have been saying.

I have been saying that the Dark Side has been able to cloud the Jedi?s judgment and ability to use the Force, due to the Jedi?s own failings. Both are at fault.
I have been saying that the Jedi can sense deception, and that Palpatine has been ?hiding? himself from the Jedi (the Dark Side clouding everything).

Where am I getting this? I am making conjectures based upon events in the EU that is very, very similar as to what is going on in the movies. I can do this safely because we [i]can[/i] take the EU into account. We can take it into account until we are shown otherwise by the movies themselves, the novelizations, etc.. But as of right now, none of what I have been saying has contradicted anything in the movie, meaning it is a valid conjecture, and one that makes sense too.

But you are free to think the EU is bogus if you want. If you want to go strictly by what the movies are saying, you are correct. But I do not go by just the movies. As your link said, I can think of the EU as canon until the movies show otherwise, which is what I am doing.

This all comes down to whether you wish to believe that the EU is fair game to bring into discussion. You obviously do not believe this, whilst I do. We might as well end this discussion here because it won?t get anywhere from either side of the argument.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']How is the fact that Palpatine can die even as he does this, not a sign of being less powerful? The Jedi in ?ghost? form cannot die. Being truly immortal. But the fact that Palpatine can die only shows that the Dark Side is not more powerful than the Light Side, from the fact that he can still die.[/quote] How well does a mortal body respond to a lightsaber slicing into its jugular vein? Possessed or not, a flesh and blood being will be turned into a Pez Dispenser. If the LS Force Spirits were to possess a mortal, flesh and blood body and get struck down like Palpy did in the EU, they would die, too, Zeta.

It doesn't indicate weakness on Palpatine's part (or weakness on the part of the Dark Side). It indicates weakness on the (body) parts of the hosts. The fact that Palpatine can keep doing it is testament to the EU portraying him (and Dark Side techniques) as more powerful than Light Side techniques.

[quote]My reply here is going to cover this, and all your other points about the Imperial Navy/might, etc..

The loss of Tarkin wasn?t that big of a loss. Look at the amazing victory they had over the Rebels at Hoth, it obviously had no effect whatsoever. The Imperial might was still strong as ever.

The loss of Palpatine and Vader would only strengthen their resolve to fight as well, no? You lose a leader/important person, you would think that they would also fight twice as hard and get revenge no?

Even with them gone, the Imperial might was twice that of the Rebels. Had the Imperials had competent generals they would have been able to continue their fight. They are having the butts handed to them on a platter after the Emperors defeat, even with their impressive military might, that they still possessed even after the Emperors death.

The size of the military didn?t help them. They had more great leaders than Tarkin, Palpatine, and Vader. Yet they still crumbled, even with their superior firepower, manpower, etc..[/quote] Do you remember your example of the Jedi standing on a hill, to inspire soldiers? Picture that Jedi on that hill, lightsaber ignited, ready for battle. Then picture that Jedi gets blind-sided by a Sith warrior. The Sith cuts the Jedi in [i]half[/i]. What do you think that's going to do to the soldiers? They're not going to be so keen as to rush into battle, Zeta. They're going to be seriously freaked.

Apply that idea to Vader, Palpatine, Tarkin, the Death Star, etc. Every major blow, be it personnel death, technology destroyed, etc., is going to have a negative effect on the morale and resolve of the troops. The Imperial Navy falling apart after the upper echelons of their command are disrupted is to be expected, because that?s what happens in militaristic societies, especially societies with the distribution of power and authority found in the Empire. Take Rome, Britain, Germany, USSR, for example. It?s just what happens.

Again, someone in a position of power is killed, it has a negative impact on the grunt's psyche, so I don't see how the Empire falling apart after its entire commanding infrastructure collapses is indicative of one man inspiring the entire military through the Force. All it's indicative of is basic human psychology playing a rather significant role in war-time.

[quote]How is it not to blame at all? It doesn?t say/show this in the movies.[/quote] OT. Read between the lines. Study what Obi-Wan and Yoda say. Had there actually been a Dark Side blame, they would have said something about it in the OT.

[quote]The whole of the Senate is not corrupt. We see this with the fact that Padme diehard pro-Senate, without corruption in her midst. Not all can be bribed.[/quote] Not all, true, but you?d be surprised how easily politicians can be??persuaded.? If one can?t be persuaded, there are others who can.

[quote]They expressed worry yes. But without a Sith Lord, they would have no assurances that their victory could be completely successfully. We all ready see Palpatine himself being surprised at events playing out. Imagine all the things that a lowly Senator would not know about happening. Things that would not play in his favor. Lets just say that a plain ole? Senator managed to get all the way through the Naboo blockaded, and ultimately failing. Would you honestly believe it would progress any farther? [b]With Nute Gunray on trial he would immediately rat out his benefactor[/b]. [b]He never did this with Sidious because he was [i]afraid[/i] of him. [/b]They would have no reason to be afraid of a lowly Senator.[/quote] [quote name='Siren][b]You know the beauty of holograms? You can play dress-up and act. You can disguise your appearance, disguise your voice, etc[/b']. The Trade Federation is corrupt, as well, keep in mind, so appealing to what drives them the most is the name of the game.[/quote] I already took that into consideration. It?s just as easy for a ?normal? Senator to inspire fear. It?s not as if a Sith Lord was the only thing that would scare others. Sometimes you just need an image and a voice to keep others in line.

[quote]Since when does it say it is not stronger?[/quote] Well, if it were stronger, why would there be a need to balance the Force? If the Light Side is stronger, there wouldn?t be a problem. The Dark Side would be a minor annoyance, a bit of a hiccup, and easily defeated?and it?s not easily defeated. There?s a constant give-and-take, push-and-pull between the two sides of the Force. Read between the lines in the films. The Light Side and the Dark Side are even. The only difference is the Dark Side is faster to achieve, while the Light Side is slower to achieve, like Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back.

[quote]Regardless of whether the clothes are still black or what not[/quote] I wanted to isolate this sentence. The coloring of the characters? clothing throughout the films is too important to just shrug it off, Zeta. Luke?s color changes from white to black for a reason. Vader?s costume is black for a reason. Leia?s costume is white for a reason (and actually, her costume becomes progressively darker throughout the OT, as well). Palpatine?s costume is black for a reason. Obi-Wan?s is a middle tone for a reason, as is Yoda?s. It reflects where they are in relation to Force Alignments. The colors of the clothing need consideration when evaluating the ending, Zeta. Lucas wouldn?t have set the costumes like he did had he intended for them to mean nothing.

[quote]I do not care what you see the movie as Siren, plain and simple. Regardless of whether the clothes are still black or what not. I am taking Lucas? own words over your interpretations. If he says the Force is in brought into balance with Anakin killing Palpatine, then it is, regardless of what you interpret. His words take precedence over your interpretations.[/quote] If I'm wrong anyway, where's the harm in actually examining my analysis? We both know what balance means, don't we? What's the danger in you examining my analysis in the context of the films?

Anakin is prophesied to bring balance to the Force by killing Palpatine, so that would mean the Force is unbalanced. How is it unbalanced? Is it an actual Light/Dark duality imbalance?

If it is specifically to do with the Light/Dark duality of the Force, which side is more powerful? If the Dark Side is stronger, then Yoda's statement in Empire Strikes Back ("Dark Side is not stronger.") would be incorrect. But why would Yoda be mistaken about that, especially after having all of that time to reflect on what happened?

But if the Dark Side isn't the stronger side, then the Light Side is...and that wouldn't be a problem, would it? So why the need to balance the Force? It appears balanced in that aspect.

Later in your reply you mention the Force being unbalanced because a Sith rules the galaxy. Okay, so the Force isn't unbalanced from the Light/Dark duality, so neither the Light Side nor the Dark Side is stronger than the other.

So then the question becomes why is the Force unbalanced with a Sith ruling the galaxy? Is it because it's a Sith and not Jedi? Why would it be any more balanced with a Jedi ruling the galaxy? There?s still a Force user with more power than those around him or her. The Force is unbalanced because one Force user of one side of the Force has more power than a Force user of the other side of the Force. How would a balance be achieved there? By eliminating all of the Force users. It?d be essentially dropping the ?Force Index? down to Zero for both sides. Totally even, totally balanced.

[quote]Do we hear them say anything about midi-chlorines? No. Things that are said in the prequels don?t have to be said in the OT.[/quote] Zeta, I think the fact that there is no repeat at all of the Dark Side clouding the Prequels in the dialogue of Yoda and Obi-Wan in the OT is very significant, because if it (the Dark Side clouding things) were truly the case, they would have said something about it.

And we?re not talking about something that, by comparison, is purely incidental (like Midichlorians). We?re talking about a possible reason the Old Republic fell (the Dark Side). To write off no mention/attribution in the OT as ?things that are said in the prequels don?t have to be said in the OT? is vastly understating the importance of it. We?ve seen throughout the Trilogy that if Lucas wants an idea or concept to resonate, if he wants to stress the importance of a particular idea or concept, he will repeat it throughout the Saga. He does this with ?point of view,? which is a major theme of the Saga.

Nowhere in the OT do Yoda or Obi-Wan attribute their clouded perceptions of the Prequels to the Dark Side. That is an important point to realize here, Zeta.

[quote]I am also going to reply to your things after, without quoting them.

Yes they have gone through a learning process. Yes they have realized that is was their own faults. Yes they realized that they have been played for fools.

But, if they had had the proper teachings and fundamental beliefs that they were not all powerful, the Dark Side would not have gone unnoticed. They would have been able to sense it immediately. Their weakness allowed the Dark Side to ?overpower? what little the Jedi had. This still doesn?t imply that the Dark Side is stronger in anyway. The Jedi still have the ability to be stronger, to realize the truth of what was happening. But they didn?t. They were hell bent on believing that they were all powerful.

Which is why the Dark Side had such a profound effect on their ability to use the Force. It is the fault of both sides here Siren. Had the Jedi not been lack in the ways of life and beliefs, the Dark Side would never have gained a foothold. But, the Dark Side did gain a foothold, clouding things and diminishing the Jedi?s ability to use the Force.[/quote] The Dark Side--rather, [i]Palpatine[/i], only has an opportunity because the Jedi fail. There is an opening only because the Jedi are incompetent. They are solely responsible for the fall of the Old Republic, for the Old Order, etc. Had they been doing their job from the start, disaster would have been averted long before the Trade Federation ever came into the picture. Think about it. Palpatine nabs some people because the Jedi are fools. Is that indicative of both being responsible for the disaster, or is that indicative of the Jedi sitting with their thumbs up their *****? The Jedi are the cause for the Fall...not Palpatine, not the Dark Side. The Jedi are.

[quote]What would have happened if Luke at killed his father? Would he have literally killed himself? I think not. But would he have turned to the Dark Side if he did? Most definitely. He would have killed his father with hatred, fulfilling his destiny and joining Palpatine, aka the Dark Side. But the fact that he chose not to kill his father, proved he will not embrace the Dark Side. If he were Dark Side, he would have easily killed his father. But he doesn?t. [b]He chooses to let this murderous, Dark Side monstrosity live[/b]. It is as much as self-survival as it is showing an inclination towards the Light Side.

Killing Vader = Killing himself in the way that he would be the last of the Jedi and would join with the Sith, losing whatever identity he had beforehand. And the Force would remain unbalanced with the Sith ruling the galaxy, possibly for eternity.

Not killing Vader = Luke beginning the throw off the Dark Side that has taken root into him, and starting on his path to the Light Side, ensuring the survival of the Jedi and his own survival.[/quote] [quote name='Return of the Jedi']LUKE: Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.[/quote] What is that passage there? It's gloating, it's a snide remark, it's conceited and self-absorbed. We heard the same attitude from Anakin throughout the Prequels. Light Side inclination you say? I doubt it.

Where in that passage does he ever consider the well-being of his father? For that matter, where in the scene? He goes berserk, starts hacking away at Vader, and is about to kill him until he sees the mechanical hand. His father is not what stops him, nor does a consideration for his father. What stops him is purely self-interest, as shown by the mechanical hand.

Then he turns to Palpatine and mocks him. What Light Side Jedi would be so pretentious as to treat Palpatine with such flippant disrespect? Even Yoda doesn't, and he's fighting Palpatine in Episode III. Mace Windu doesn't, and he fights Palpatine in Episode III. Who is the only other character apart from Luke that speaks like that to any other character? Anakin in AOTC.

[quote]I have been saying that [b]the Dark Side has been able to cloud the Jedi?s judgment and ability to use the Force[/b], due to the Jedi?s own failings. Both are at fault.

I have been saying that [b]the Jedi can sense deception[/b], and that [b]Palpatine has been ?hiding? himself from the Jedi[/b] (the [b]Dark Side clouding everything[/b]).

Where am I getting this? I am making conjectures based upon events in the EU that is very, very similar as to what is going on in the movies. I can do this safely because we [i]can[/i] take the EU into account. We can take it into account until we are shown otherwise by the movies themselves, the novelizations, etc.. But as of right now, none of what I have been saying has contradicted anything in the movie, meaning it is a valid conjecture, and one that makes sense too.[/quote] If both Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT demonstrate an understanding that their self-assurances and attitudes in the past are what blinded them, what evidence is there that Palpatine had to hide himself at all? The Jedi couldn't sense deception, but not because Palpatine was hiding himself. They couldn't sense deception because they themselves were limiting their own perceptions. They can't detect anything because they blind themselves. There were no external forces at work. The Jedi were the ones clouding their own judgments.

[quote]But you are free to think the EU is bogus if you want. If you want to go strictly by what the movies are saying, you are correct. But I do not go by just the movies. As your link said, I can think of the EU as canon until the movies show otherwise, which is what I am doing.

This all comes down to whether you wish to believe that the EU is fair game to bring into discussion. You obviously do not believe this, whilst I do. We might as well end this discussion here because it won?t get anywhere from either side of the argument.[/QUOTE] What the EU has been doing in this argument is ?fill? ?gaps? that never existed to begin with. Head on over to fanfiction.net and you?ll find thousands upon thousands of ?EU? that authors don?t get paid for. There is no difference between Luke?s childhood on Tatooine as told by ForceChyk3053 and the same concept as told by Timothy Zahn, apart from writing quality. It?s still the same fundamental thing: sidestories.

And if we go by strictly the movies, I'm correct? So that would mean that the movies imply differently than the EU does, which would mean the EU conflicts with what the films set-up, which means the EU is unreliable. If you view the films exclusively, and they clearly show one particular stance on particular issues, and then the EU comes along and gives a different stance on those same issues, the EU is not giving the same message as the films...meaning, the EU is unreliable.

[Zeta]

[quote] How well does a mortal body respond to a lightsaber slicing into its jugular vein? Possessed or not, a flesh and blood being will be turned into a Pez Dispenser. If the LS Force Spirits were to possess a mortal, flesh and blood body and get struck down like Palpy did in the EU, they would die, too, Zeta.

It doesn't indicate weakness on Palpatine's part (or weakness on the part of the Dark Side). It indicates weakness on the (body) parts of the hosts. The fact that Palpatine can keep doing it is testament to the EU portraying him (and Dark Side techniques) as more powerful than Light Side techniques.[/quote]

By reading the Dark Empire comics where this is found, we are told that Palpatine has to hurry himself to a clone. Otherwise his spirit will fade away. When he comes back, he doesn?t become more powerful. He is exactly what he was when he did. But the Jedi are able to stay in their ghost form, not having to worry about finding a clone/what have you to continue on. Not only does this show the Dark Side?s weakness it the ability to keep him alive after death, it shows that the Light Side is not weaker. It shows that the Jedi can survive without the use of a body; taking away weakness Palpatine has of needing a body to just be able to survive.

[quote] Do you remember your example of the Jedi standing on a hill, to inspire soldiers? Picture that Jedi on that hill, lightsaber ignited, ready for battle. Then picture that Jedi gets blind-sided by a Sith warrior. The Sith cuts the Jedi in half. What do you think that's going to do to the soldiers? They're not going to be so keen as to rush into battle, Zeta. They're going to be seriously freaked.

Apply that idea to Vader, Palpatine, Tarkin, the Death Star, etc. Every major blow, be it personnel death, technology destroyed, etc., is going to have a negative effect on the morale and resolve of the troops. The Imperial Navy falling apart after the upper echelons of their command are disrupted is to be expected, because that?s what happens in militaristic societies, especially societies with the distribution of power and authority found in the Empire. Take Rome, Britain, Germany, USSR, for example. It?s just what happens.

Again, someone in a position of power is killed, it has a negative impact on the grunt's psyche, so I don't see how the Empire falling apart after its entire commanding infrastructure collapses is indicative of one man inspiring the entire military through the Force. All it's indicative of is basic human psychology playing a rather significant role in war-time.[/quote]

Using a single Jedi is different than using the Tarkin, Vader, Emperor, etc..The Empire had countless brilliant strategists in their Navy. If as you say their success was due to their leadership, they would have fallen back onto them. You see it in real life too. A higher ranking office is killed, the one below him assumes command. The Imperials do not do this. They immediately fall apart. There was more than just three powerful leaders of the Navy that could have easily went and squashed the still small Alliance. Yet they didn?t, despite their great skills you claim them to have.

[quote] OT. Read between the lines. Study what Obi-Wan and Yoda say. Had there actually been a Dark Side blame, they would have said something about it in the OT.[/quote]

Had there been no Dark Side to blame, they would have placed the blame entirely on themselves, which we do not see.


[quote] I already took that into consideration. It?s just as easy for a ?normal? Senator to inspire fear. It?s not as if a Sith Lord was the only thing that would scare others. Sometimes you just need an image and a voice to keep others in line.[/quote]

How on earth would they be afraid of a regular senator? Palpatine was able to instill fear because he told them what to do and how it would come out. Showing them his power. That is how they began to fear him. Because they know his powers. A regular Senator wouldn?t be able to show them a damn thing. Only way they could is hope that their plans work out in the end as they see fit.

[quote] Well, if it were stronger, why would there be a need to balance the Force? If the Light Side is stronger, there wouldn?t be a problem. The Dark Side would be a minor annoyance, a bit of a hiccup, and easily defeated?and it?s not easily defeated. There?s a constant give-and-take, push-and-pull between the two sides of the Force. Read between the lines in the films. The Light Side and the Dark Side are even. The only difference is the Dark Side is faster to achieve, while the Light Side is slower to achieve, like Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back.[/quote]

Just because it is stronger, doesn?t mean they will keep everything in balance. We are the most powerful country in the world, yet we do not keep the world at peace. We are not able to stop terrorists. Even though we are stronger than them we are not able to do so.

[quote] If I'm wrong anyway, where's the harm in actually examining my analysis? We both know what balance means, don't we? What's the danger in you examining my analysis in the context of the films?[/quote]

There is no harm. But the fact of the matter is we have proof from the creator himself who has said Anakin brings the Force into balance at the end of ROTJ. There is no need to examine it as all since we have a flat out answer right in front of us.

[QUOTE]We?ve seen throughout the Trilogy that if Lucas wants an idea or concept to resonate, if he wants to stress the importance of a particular idea or concept, he will repeat it throughout the Saga.[/QUOTE]

Why would he stress the importance of Anakin being the Chosen One, if he does not bring balance to the Force i n ROTJ?

[quote] Later in your reply you mention the Force being unbalanced because a Sith rules the galaxy. Okay, so the Force isn't unbalanced from the Light/Dark duality, so neither the Light Side nor the Dark Side is stronger than the other.[/quote]

Perhaps I didn?t fully get across what I was meaning to say, my apologies. The Force is unbalanced due to the fact that the Sith are present. Regardless of whether or not they are in control of the galaxy, the Force is unbalanced as long as they are around. Notice how after the deaths of Palpatine and Vader there are no longer any Sith. Just wannabe Sith. Hell you don?t even need the books for that.

We hear from Yoda there are only ever two Sith. Master and Apprentice. By the OT this is Vader and Palpatine. With the death of both of them the Sith are no more. Bringing the Force into balance. No more Sith. Force is blalanced.

[quote] Nowhere in the OT do Yoda or Obi-Wan attribute their clouded perceptions of the Prequels to the Dark Side. That is an important point to realize here, Zeta.[/quote]

Nowhere do they say it is strictly their fault. It sounds as if Obi-Wan is even praising the Jedi when you see him and Luke in his house. The obviously do not put the blame entirely on themselves, otherwise they would have said so clearly.

[quote] The Dark Side--rather, Palpatine, only has an opportunity because the Jedi fail. There is an opening only because the Jedi are incompetent. They are solely responsible for the fall of the Old Republic, for the Old Order, etc. Had they been doing their job from the start, disaster would have been averted long before the Trade Federation ever came into the picture. Think about it. Palpatine nabs some people because the Jedi are fools. Is that indicative of both being responsible for the disaster, or is that indicative of the Jedi sitting with their thumbs up their *****? The Jedi are the cause for the Fall...not Palpatine, not the Dark Side. The Jedi are.[/quote]

Which is what I have been saying, lol.

[quote] But, if they had had the proper teachings and fundamental beliefs that they were not all powerful, the Dark Side would not have gone unnoticed.[/quote]

[quote] Had the Jedi not been lack in the ways of life and beliefs, the Dark Side would never have gained a foothold.[/quote]

Their own failings prompted the Dark Side to take affect on them. Had this not done so, the Dark Side wouldn?t have bothered them in the slightest.

They could have still be able to keep the Republic going if the Dark Side hadn?t come into the picture, even with their diminished abilities.

The only reason why the Republic fell is because the Dark Side came into play. Had it not, the Jedi could have gotten away with the diminished abilities and kept the Republic together. It all boils down to the Dark Side taking control of the Republic itself, with Palpatine using it to manipulate things into his favor and bring about the destruction of the Jedi.

We have seen countless times the Jedi and the Republic practically crumble, but not once has the Republic been completely destroyed, along with the Jedi. The Jedi way of life/leachings/beliefs/what have you have remained practically the same throughout their history, and yet all the other times they are brought to the brink of destruction the Republic still lives. But when the Dark Side specifically comes into play, only then does the Republic fall.

So yes, the Dark Side is to blame just as much as the Jedi themselves.

[quote] What is that passage there? It's gloating, it's a snide remark, it's conceited and self-absorbed. We heard the same attitude from Anakin throughout the Prequels. Light Side inclination you say? I doubt it.[/quote]

Why wouldn?t he? Palpatine just said moments before that ?you like your father, are now mine.? And he kept calling him apprentice throughout that whole ordeal beforehand. Luke would have only become Palpatines apprentice if he had killed Vader. He did not. He proved that he would not be turned, and that Palpatine had failed.

[quote] Where in that passage does he ever consider the well-being of his father? For that matter, where in the scene? He goes berserk, starts hacking away at Vader, and is about to kill him until he sees the mechanical hand. His father is not what stops him, nor does a consideration for his father. What stops him is purely self-interest, as shown by the mechanical hand.[/quote]

Yes self-interest for him to live. Had he killed Vader he would have killed himself, by wiping away all vestiges of Luke Skywalker, just as Anakin did when he became Vader, in effect killing himself. Him choosing to not embrace the Dark Side is the choice he makes, which ultimately ends with him not killing his father.

[quote] If both Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT demonstrate an understanding that their self-assurances and attitudes in the past are what blinded them, what evidence is there that Palpatine had to hide himself at all? The Jedi couldn't sense deception, but not because Palpatine was hiding himself. They couldn't sense deception because they themselves were limiting their own perceptions. They can't detect anything because they blind themselves. There were no external forces at work. The Jedi were the ones clouding their own judgments.[/quote]

I am basing this off of events that are very similar in the EU. So it is entirely possible that I could be right, or you could possible be right. It is not contradicted by anything being said in the PT or in the OT. Where does Obi-Wan and Yoda strictly place everything on themselves? Where do they admit it was their own failings? Where does it say the Dark Side had no play in matters? I have yet to see them say ?it was our failings that led to the rise of the Empire.?

The only thing we see close to the fact is Obi-Wan admitting that he thought he could train Anakin as good as Yoda had taught him. That doesn?t speak for the whole Order.

[quote] What the EU has been doing in this argument is ?fill? ?gaps? that never existed to begin with. Head on over to fanfiction.net and you?ll find thousands upon thousands of ?EU? that authors don?t get paid for. There is no difference between Luke?s childhood on Tatooine as told by ForceChyk3053 and the same concept as told by Timothy Zahn, apart from writing quality. It?s still the same fundamental thing: sidestories.[/quote]

Which is exactly what makes the difference. The EU is licensed and we are able to take it into account when talking about Star Wars. We can bring it in as much as we like Siren until it contradicts something in the movies.

[quote]And if we go by strictly the movies, I'm correct? So that would mean that the movies imply differently than the EU does, which would mean the EU conflicts with what the films set-up, which means the EU is unreliable. If you view the films exclusively, and they clearly show one particular stance on particular issues, and then the EU comes along and gives a different stance on those same issues, the EU is not giving the same message as the films...meaning, the EU is unreliable.[/quote]

But we do not have to go strictly by the movies. The movies and EU form an overall continuity, with the movies taking precedence only if the EU contradicts them. Which we have seen in a few places yes. But that doesn't mean all of the EU is unrealiable. Siren, the fact of the matter is this.

We [i]can[/i] take the EU into account when discussing Star Wars. We can bring points from the EU into play when discussing things in the films. We can believe what is told to us in the EU. As the link that you provided pointed out, we can consider the EU canon until it contradicts things in the movie. And there have only been a few cases of that throughout the Enire EU. Regardless of how you view the EU, I can safely draw upon the EU when discussing matters until they contradict something in the films.

And this is why we might as well just end this disucussion. You are unwilling to believe that the EU is canon, whereas I am. You wish to go directly by what the movies say/show, whereas I do not. I wish to take the EU into discussion, which is valid canon, but you do not. Neither of us are going to get anywhere.

[Shadow Blade]

Big Star Wars Fan Right Here!!

[Dragon Warrior]

[quote name='Shadow Blade']Big Star Wars Fan Right Here!![/quote]

Just to give you the heads up before you get into any trouble or anything, you might want to make your posts both lengthier and have more meaning to them than stating the simply fact that you like "Star Wars." ;)

But anyways, I was wondering if Luke and Leia would be mentioned at all in this. I'm sure that Darth Vader wouldn't get busy with zee Queen, so... Perhaps it'll be unmentioned and you'll just assume she had them after the episode is over.

I'm just talking to myself here...

[img]http://img131.exs.cx/img131/8930/dwwashere9rz.gif[/img]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Dragon Warrior]But anyways, I was wondering if Luke and Leia would be mentioned at all in this. I'm sure that Darth Vader wouldn't get busy with zee Queen, so... Perhaps it'll be unmentioned and you'll just assume she had them after the episode is over.

I'm just talking to myself here...

[img]http://img131.exs.cx/img131/8930/dwwashere9rz.gif[/img][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Put simply they'll have to be, as even before Episode III Padmé and Anakin are getting "jiggy" and Vader seems to already know he has a son in the Old Trilogy. We know that Padmé is going to send Leia to be raised by Bail Organa on Alderaan, and Obi-Wan delivers Luke to be raised by his Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru on Tattooine. If they're excluded then I'd put it down to laziness by Lucas because they would seem to play and important role emotionally. [/SIZE]

[TheShinje]

[font=Trebuchet MS][size=1][font=Verdana][color=Gray]It will be interesting to see how this movie goes. This is the one that will link up the NT to the OT, so a few questions will be answered, Luke and Leia will be amongst them.

Will Boba Fett make an appearance? taking over his father's role? His inclusion as the Bounty Hunter would mean that Sith happens in quite a distant time period from Episode II. this would make sense, though. As I recall, Sith is taking place at a time when the Clone Wars are nearing their end. Episode II was their beginning. Interesting, most interesting.

What I'm most, most itnerested in seeing is the transformation of the Glalactic Republic into the Imperial Empire. It's the moment I've been waiting for since the prequels were slated for production. I hope they don't screw anything up, and I don't think they will, I beleive that that the transition form Republic to Empire will be, rather nifty. :animesmil

What are the things that interest you most about the last prequel? what do you wan to see revealed/answered? Or, if you like, just comment on the movie itself.. I know it's being released soon. ^^;


EDIT: Just as another point of discussion, does anyone know what the Title "Darth" actually means? I know about Vader and Maul, both apprentices of the Emperor, but Sidious? Isn't Sidious one of Palpatine's guises? I'm guessing that Darth means apprentice, but if Sidious is indeed the Emperor, then I don't know. o_O;


Yoda says, in Episode I, something to the tune of "always two there are, one apprentice, one master" Is that the Emperor, and his "Darth" or apprentice?
[/color][/font] [/size][/font]

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Zenju][font=Trebuchet MS][size=1][font=Verdana][color=Gray]EDIT: Just as another point of discussion, does anyone know what the Title "Darth" actually means? I know about Vader and Maul, both apprentices of the Emperor, but Sidious? Isn't Sidious one of Palpatine's guises? I'm guessing that Darth means apprentice, but if Sidious is indeed the Emperor, then I don't know. o_O;


Yoda says, in Episode I, something to the tune of "always two there are, one apprentice, one master" Is that the Emperor, and his "Darth" or apprentice?
[/color][/font] [/size][/font][/QUOTE]
I think "Darth" actually simply means "dark," but I'm not sure. It would make sense, though, because I believe "Vader" is Dutch for "father," so Darth Vader is a "dark father," which is accurate. Considering that most of the "Sith" (cause Sidious and Maul are also wannabe Sith) are also dark, "Darth" fits.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Siren']I think "Darth" actually simply means "dark," but I'm not sure. It would make sense, though, because I believe "Vader" is Dutch for "father," so Darth Vader is a "dark father," which is accurate. Considering that most of the "Sith" (cause Sidious and Maul are also wannabe Sith) are also dark, "Darth" fits.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Vader is Dutch for father, as it came up in daily paper's "[I]Ultimate Star Wars Quiz[/I]" a week or so back, there was also something about another alternate title to Return of the Jedi, the only one I recall was Revenge of the Jedi. Blue something, or something blue, there was definitely blue in it. Although in regard to Vader's name, I always assumed it was just short for In-vader, just like Sidious was short for In-sidious.

In regards to Zenju's question Boba probably won't make an appearance, seeing as Episode III is set only three years after Episode II he probably wouldn't have had enough time to become the thoroughly relentless and cool bounty hunter we all remember.

As for the meaning of Darth, it's the title of all Sith Lord, it's what sets them apart from those Jedi who simply fall, Darth is the title of someone who has actually trained in the ways of the Sith. What it means exactly I don't know, although Alex is probably right seeing as "[I]Dark Father[/I]" makes a lot of sense, seeing as how it's not until the New Trilogy that the title becomes widespread. [/SIZE]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Gavin][size=1]As for the meaning of Darth, it's the title of all Sith Lord, it's what sets them apart from those Jedi who simply fall, Darth is the title of someone who has actually trained in the ways of the Sith. What it means exactly I don't know, although Alex is probably right seeing as "[i]Dark Father[/i']" makes a lot of sense, seeing as how it's not until the New Trilogy that the title becomes widespread. [/size][/quote]
And also, you could see Obi-Wan as Luke's "Light Father," so that duality does make a lot of sense. Luke essentially has two dads.

...sounds like a fun sitcom, actually. o_0;;