Star Wars 411

[Stuart]

[SIZE=1]It's 3:54am and I have just returned in a limo from the midnight viewing of Revenge of the Sith. I'm tired to no end so I can't say I'll really go into much. All I have to say is that the movie was insane. [spoiler]The Emperor fighting Yoda, to the duel of fates theme[/spoiler] was just adrenaline rushing. It also had some quite funny comic relief with R2-D2. There was some dialoge in the movie just made you smirk and go "Heeehhhh Ohhh" If that really made ANY sense. You bet I will add on to more later, but right now I need to work on homework xD.[/SIZE]

[Box Hoy]

I just saw it. I agree with you. The [spoiler]scene where Yoda fights Palpatine with the Duel of Fates theme is a heart pumper[/spoiler]
There are so many things in this movie that you just look at and say "Hey. I've seen that in another movie."
[spoiler]And that Tarkin in the end was a cheap rip off of the one in Episode 4. His ears were way to pointy[/spoiler]
As for the whole darth thing. I'll give a small explanation about the title as well as how it's related to the rule of 2. The title of darth has been passed down from the main sith lords for over a millenium. It started with that of Darth Bane. Weather or not the Bane in this one is the same as in KOTOR is unknown. Darth was Bane's true name.
Bane lived during Lord Kaan's leadership of the sith. Kaan tried to kill Bane and thoguht he had but Bane survived. Kaan found Bane alive but spared him and let him sit on his council. Bane tried to rally the sith lords togethor to destroy Kaan's true enemy: The army of light. But the sith lords became afraid when they found a deep fearsome hatred in Bane's heart.
Lord Kaan brought on his own way to dipose of the Army of Light but in doing so all beings within the perimeter of the thought bomb he used were killed, including his own people. Bane was the only one who survived.
Bane fled to to the Ruusan moon known as Dxun. he found the tomb of Freedon nadd who led the infamous Exar Kun to evil. He found a sith holocron containing ancient data on the sith.
Bane was consumed by parasites called Orbalisks which fed him adreneline and created armor across his body.
When Bane emerged from the tomb he had a new thoery regarding the force. The force was being manipulated by too many of the dark side. Bane created the rule that the sith would never number more than two and one would be the master while the other was the apprentice. Bane found an apprentice and dubbed him a sith name beginning with Darht which would become a tradition spread downwards to each succesor.
I hope this explains it for you.

[TheShinje]

[size=1][spoiler] Tarkin was in the movie? I didn't see him, was he there briefly towards the end or something? [/spoiler]

Just saw the last movie today, and what a great film it was. It really tied together the two triolgies well. **major spoilers ahead**

[spoiler]I didn't expect Count Dooku to go down so quick in his movie, but that was a great moment in itself. Here we see Palpatine starting to really influence Anakin's choices. He would not have killed Dooku if had not been for Palpatine's instruction to do so.

Did General Grievous cough so much in Episode II? or was that just added for comic relief? *hatches master plah* hahaha! *cough,cough*

There were many great scene that paralleled the OT, such as the long-running tradition of having someones hands sliced off.

The one that go me was when Anakin, now Darth Vader was convincing Padme that they could overthrow Palpatine and rule the galaxy together. This is exactly what he says to Luke in ESB. What is Vader's motive for this? Well, he must know that he has a higher mitichlorian count that Palpatine, and is plotting to overthrow him since day 1

Anakin's fall to the dark side worked out tragically, to be the cause of the one thign that he was trying to prevent. In his desperation he turns to Palpatine.

Funny though, I always thought that Palpatine's disfigured appearance in the OT was his true self and not the result of a Jedi assasination attempt. Is that acually true? Mace's lightsaber never touches him as he always has some kind of force lightning barrier. The first time force lightning was used, excuse the pun, was electrifying. That was the moment that signalled to me, the gloves were off. Palpatine has put his plan into action, and nothing was going to stop him now.

What of plan 66? I thought the betrayal of the Jedi was a well done scene, and that you really felt for the Jedi that were being mowed down by those who they thought were on their side. Yoda scens of heartache and hurt accomapnying them helped that emotion along too.

A question that has been on my mind. is Vader in full swing as evil Sith Lord before the mask?

Did he have to kill the younglings? I know he is now a Sith Lord, but is he that ruthless just yet? With Anakin expecting children of his own, that's the last thing I expected him to be doing. It seemed liike the killing of the younglings scene was there to throw Anakin into full dark-side mode, and to start burning any meotional bridges we had witht he character.

Yoda's fight with Palpatine in the Senate was a cool scene. Remniscent of Luke and Vader, Yoda and Dooku, where they use the force to propel objects at each other. Good Stuff. [/spoiler]

Now I can't wait for the NT box set to come out, It'll sit nicely along side my OT one.



[/size]

[Juu]

[size=1]Episode III was a huge improvement from the last two... Everything was intensified, but the love scenes really spoiled some good moments. The lines were painfully cheesy, but I think there's always been one or two odd lines in each film. I was hoping to see Qui-Gon... which we didn't. And all this time I thought Palpatine told Anakin that Obi Wan had killed Padme.

It was amazing, though. I saw the special screening Wednesday evening as well. Did anyone else get a lightsaber spoon? >>;[/size]

[Box Hoy]

[spoiler]Yeah. Tarkin appeared when Vader and Palpatine were watching the cosntruction of the Death Star. He was standing there right next to them and then turns around.[/spoiler]

I was amazed though. [spoiler]At the end the death star is being built.[/spoiler] So it takes 18 years for the empire to complete the building of the first death star yet in Return of the jedi they finish it in little more than a year.

[TheShinje]

Not necessarily, we see the Death star in Episode IV, 18 years later but have no knowledge of how long it has been flying around before that. It is possible that the Death star flew around as the Empire's planet-shaking weapon 17 years prior to Episode IV.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Juuthena][size=1']Did anyone else get a lightsaber spoon? >>;[/size][/quote]

[color=green]In my Apple Jacks!

[spoiler]I also took issue with the showing of a skeletal frame of the Death Star being shown in Episode III. The building of the frame fits the previous timeline, as the spacing between Episode II and III is similar to that between ESB and ROTJ. I find it very hard to believe it took the Empire 17/18 years to complete the space station, which is must have. There is mention, I recall, of the Death Star being "a new battlestation" in ANH.

Did anyone else notice that the lightsabers had points? That, too, didn't sit well with me.

The Plan 66 deal was semi-believable, but I find it hard to believe that all of those very powerful Jedi Masters didn't get an inkling of what was going on, as Yoda did. I could see some, like Ki Adi Mundi, dying because he was vastly outnumbered, but Aayla Secura should have been able to defend herself. Additionally, I feel it a little unrealistic that Anakin was able to take out most of the temple. There surely were a good number of Knights and Masters present, defeating all of them seems highly implausible.[/spoiler]

I held off seeing the movie on opening night as part of the Han Shot First "movement" I suppose you could call it. Overall, I enjoyed it and give it 4/4.5 stars.

[spoiler]I felt the movie's best scene was the duel between Yoda and Palpatine, it's worst was the dialogue between Anakin, Windu and Palpatine during the arrest confrontation and the funniest moment was when Yoda kills the two Imperial guards right before he confronts the Emperor.

I also like the irony in that Anakin gives up everything he is for his love, and in doing so loses her, too. Along with the fact that without his poor choices she wouldnt have died. >.>[/spoiler][/color]

[Dagger]

Now I know why he really turned to the dark side: horrible acting and absolutely atrocious dialogue. :animesigh

I just couldn't take this movie seriously on any level. I had hoped that it would be better than Phantom Menace & Attack of the Clones--yet while I was disappointed by those films, Revenge of the Sith left me with a far worse feeling because it was much more of a direct prequel to A New Hope (whereas the other new movies seemed somewhat removed from the content of the original films).

The first trilogy was deliberately campy, and its humor had more of a sly, self-deprecating tone. Because of that, the somber moments were more poignant and held more meaning. Revenge of the Sith tried too hard to create a serious, weighty atmosphere through and through. Also, super-deep characterization has never been the franchise's strong point, but at least the cast of the original movies had a great deal of chemistry and was composed of likeable character types. Anakin and Padme aren't even well-developed enough to be considered cliches--for me they were less than cardboard cutouts, completely unsympathetic.

Also, for some reason I kind of hated the special effects. I'm not one to dismiss all CGI--usually I have no problem with it. But in Revenge of the Sith, as in Phantom Menace & Attack of the Clones, I thought the big set-piece-type effects simply looked off. During some of the battles my only thought was, "Well, this would make a great video game."

Did I mention that the dialogue was incredibly painful? I can take some bad or corny lines--heck, the first trilogy was filled with them, but they were delivered in a knowing and comedic manner. In this movie, virtually all of the cheesy lines were meant to be deathly serious. I suppose the actors tried to make the best of a bad situation, but their performances were at best adequate and at worse completely laughable.

Excuse me whilst I go cleanse my metaphorical palate with some trashy TV.

~Dagger~

[Box Hoy]

Well. I saw it for a second time today and I agree with you Dagger. The dialogue was pretty crappy.

I haven't really thought of the whole character chemistry thing up until now but it does make sense. They try too hard to act like they're friends and the movie sucks. After I got out I watched Phantom Menace which didn't really reveal anything to me. All I found was that Darth Maul as usual looked cool and I was sitting there yelling kill Palpatine while he's not expecting it.

I can't seem to find any good transitions between the trilogies but than again I haven't seen the Original Trilogy since III came out so I wouldn't know.

[Zeta]

Saw it opening day, and loved it. I've been watching it ever since...*cough* :animeswea

Anyways, I myself thought it was a very good movie. Way better than the Episode's I and II. Though there are a few things here and there that I did not like.

[spoiler] My favorite lightsabre battle had to be the between Anakin and Obi-Wan. I just found it too cool, especially the very beginning of the fight on the landing platform.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]The Yoda and Palpatine fight was awesome,and hilarious at the same time. "My little green friend." I still crack up at that line. And when Yoda Force pushed Palpatine after getting up and having him fly backwards into the chair upside down, funny stuff.[/spoiler]

[spoiler] The one part that I did not like in the movie was in the final battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin, with Obi-Wan on that little hill thing with Anakin on the floating thing in the river of lava. It sounded so horrible when he said "you underestimate my power." The way he said power just made me go o_0. [/spoiler]

The book is great as well. I enjoy the book much more because you are actually able to see how much more manipulation was done on Anakin by Palpatine. Sadly, that is the fault with movies. Only so much can be shown. A good deal was left out of the movie, that made its way into the book. The book allows you to see more of the conflict going on in Anakin. A very good read.

Oh, and on a closing note. Siren, it seems that Jedi can "officially" sense deception/etc..

[i]Revenge of the Sith[/i] pg. 249

[spoiler]Your Jedi senses, Anakin. Your ability to [i]read evil intent[/i]. I have no doubt these Senators will put some virtuous facade on their plotting; with your help, we will pierce that veil and discover the truth.[/spoiler]

Not EU, but part of the G-canon in your link in an earlier post, the [i]absolute[/i] canon. ^_^;;

[Syk3]

Oh, come on now, lol. Pointy ears? Pointy lightsabers? Pointy dialogue? I think some of you are being pretty [strike]pointy[/strike] picky with this movie, which makes it rather difficult to even read these posts. >.o

I just saw it for the second time last night, and I was just as pleased as when I saw it at the midnight showing last week. It's just such a cool movie, easily tearing apart the last two, but as Shin reminds me, that's not exactly a difficult feat. I know that a lot of people are calling it the best in the series (and apparently some are calling it the worst, but I?ll disregard that for the moment), and I do think that the movie?s quality rivals the original trilogy, but it really is such a completely different film that it?s difficult to compare. In the end, though.. as much as I love episode three, I?d have to give my supreme (uh oh, only a sith deals in absolute O.o) favorite to the originals.

In my opinion, I felt that the actors did a much better job this time around, and their passion and confidence really showed through. Gone was Anakin?s more.. shall we say, angsty side, and he was able to play out a character worthy of becoming Darth Vadar.

The dialogue really wasn?t that bad, either. In some respects, it was a bit paced out and didn?t feel quite like a Star Wars movie, but it was still alright and I enjoyed it for the most part. It wasn?t intended to be a movie set in modern-day where any of us could have easily been the characters portrayed, so you shouldn?t put it to such standards.

In regards to the story, they really did a fantastic job, in my opinion. It was just so.. emotional, you know? So personal for all of the characters that they put their heart into it all, and I just eat up movies like that. lol My favorite part was probably the [spoiler]Anakin/Obi-wan[/spoiler] fight, which I thought would be rushed and rather awkward to start, but it wasn?t at all. [spoiler]The way Anakin was accusing Obi-wan of turning Padme against him was just beautiful, as was the way his vivid anger was portrayed.[/spoiler]

Now for the parts that I didn?t like about the movie. [spoiler]First and foremost, I was rather disturbed at how quickly Anakin turned to the dark side after pledging his allegiance to Palpatine, which went from him just wanting to do what he can to save Padme to losing self-restraint completely. After watching the movie a second time, I noticed that the emperor had told him that he must fully immerse himself in the dark side in order to cheat death, but something still felt a little off about the whole thing.[/spoiler]

At some points during the movie, I?ll agree with some of you and say that it did seem like they were trying too hard to tie things into the next one. Some of the things they did were pretty cool and helped a lot, like [spoiler]Obi-wan taking Anakin?s lightsaber away from the battle, the General Tarkin cameo, and the way that Darth Vadar got his suit, to name a few. But.. as much as I?d like to believe that putting the Death Star in there was a good idea, I don?t think it would have taken quite that long to build, yeah. Especially with being a ?new battle station? in A New Hope. The Chewbacca appearance was rather ridiculous, as well, and I thought it was kind of convenient that the only Jedi who didn?t die were Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin, but perhaps that?s the reason that we see them all in the future movies; we see them because there was no one left, anyway.[/spoiler] Which reminds me:

[quote name='Boba Fett][spoiler']The Plan 66 deal was semi-believable, but I find it hard to believe that all of those very powerful Jedi Masters didn't get an inkling of what was going on, as Yoda did. I could see some, like Ki Adi Mundi, dying because he was vastly outnumbered, but Aayla Secura should have been able to defend herself. Additionally, I feel it a little unrealistic that Anakin was able to take out most of the temple. There surely were a good number of Knights and Masters present, defeating all of them seems highly implausible.[/spoiler][/quote][spoiler]They actually were all outnumbered. Of the ones we saw, they didn't have any chance of escaping that many clones, especially not when they trusted them so much. The only way Yoda escaped was because he was only facing two troopers and his senses are most likely the strongest of the Jedi.

Anakin had help with the temple, since he brought tons of clone troopers with him to dispose of the knights and masters.[/spoiler]

Oh, and Zeta. Wasn?t the script and book written separately? As far as I know, George Lucas didn?t have anything to do with the books, which means he wasn?t really leaving stuff out.

Overall, I really did like the movie. I?d give it an.. 8 or 8.5 out of 10. Did anyone else catch the Millennium Falcon landing near the beginning of the movie?

[Zeta]

Oh my good chap. If you go back a few posts and read a post by Siren, you will see that Lucas works quite closely with the authors of the move novelisations. :-) And if you will also look at the post with his different types of canon, it says that G-canon (absolute canon) includes the movies, the movie novelisations, and a few others.

[i]G-canon is absolute canon; the movies, the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays and the Star Wars DK "Cross Sections", "Visual Dictionaries", and "Inside The Worlds Of" books based on the movies. G-canon always overides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction.[/i]

[Mitch]

People are picky because this is Star Wars. This is something that means a lot to a lot of people, so of course that's how they're going to take it.

In the end, I thought Episode III was a bit above average, and that is it. Its good aspects are dwarfed by its bad aspects. What are the worser aspects to the movie? Most people have already mentioned them all. The dialogue was trite, I dislike the heavy use of CGI and like the older movies' use of actual costumes and puppets and actual landscapes, as well as the special effects; the love story within these prequels has been terribly executed and it's embarrassingly terrible in this movie as well - there were also a lot of awkward moments (examples: Darth's "Noooooooo!1111111~~~~" towards the end, the part where they're rescuing Senator Palpatine and the camera suddenly cuts to him for a quick moment as he says something really quickly which is intangible and sounds like "Yip!" or something, and so on and so forth - I won't bore you any longer).

If I had to give it a rating, I would give it two and a half stars out of four.

Now the good aspects: Anakin was acted out much better than in the previous movies, and as was Obi-wan and Palpatine. And over all, the story had much more to it than anything the past two movies threw at us.

Recently I've watched the old movies once again, and it just makes me realize how much better they are than these prequels will ever be. Episode III is a worthy Star Wars movie which is still a disappointment, and despite what some people are saying, it is nothing as good as the older movies and never will be.

[Syk3]

[quote name='Mitch']People are picky because this is Star Wars. This is something that means a lot to a lot of people, so of course that's how they're going to take it.[/quote]Well, yeah, I'm just saying. A lot of people go into this movie with the previous two in mind and are just looking for something to ***** about. They can't be pleased, no matter how good of a movie Lucas dishes out, because the originals are so inplanted in their brains. You'd think they could focus on the positive aspects of what the movie has to offer, lol.

And I didn't know that about the books, Zeta. :o When I found out that the original movies where written directly for the script, and that the books were written later by someone else, I just assumed the same thing would be true with these new ones.

[Dagger]

[quote name='Syk3']Well, yeah, I'm just saying. A lot of people go into this movie with the previous two in mind and are just looking for something to ***** about. They can't be pleased, no matter how good of a movie Lucas dishes out, because the originals are so inplanted in their brains. You'd think they could focus on the positive aspects of what the movie has to offer, lol..[/quote]
Speaking from my perspective, I didn't exactly go into the movie with high expectations--although I was still pretty excited about seeing it. It had gotten fair reviews, so I figured it must be better than Episode I & Episode II. I was disappointed anyway, haha. Anyway, why isn't it valid for fans to compare this film with the originals, or to keep the originals in mind while watching it? Isn't that the entire point? This is a direct prequel, after all.

~Dagger~

[Syk3]

[QUOTE=Dagger]Anyway, why isn't it valid for fans to compare this film with the originals, or to keep the originals in mind while watching it? Isn't that the entire point? This is a direct prequel, after all.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]Like I was saying before, it's hard to compare them because they really feel like different films. And it's true, they are different in a lot of ways, and different isn't always a bad thing. I wasn't saying that fans shouldn't keep the story line of the originals in mind, because you're right, that's the entire point, but rather the movies overall and their feelings toward them.

[Shinmaru]

[quote name='Syk3']Well, yeah, I'm just saying. A lot of people go into this movie with the previous two in mind and are just looking for something to ***** about. They can't be pleased, no matter how good of a movie Lucas dishes out, because the originals are so inplanted in their brains. You'd think they could focus on the positive aspects of what the movie has to offer, lol.[/quote]

Personally, the only reason I kept the two prequels in mind was to keep my expectations low. I didn't go into this film expecting to be blown away, and I think I enjoyed the movie all the more because of it. But, in the end, people's tastes are their own tastes. Suddenly people can't complain about a film? They paid to see it, after all lol. If someone is just looking for stuff to ***** out, then whatever. George Lucas is laughing all the way to the bank, really.

Anyway, I agree with Mitch's assessment of the movie. The love story was blah, the dialogue was pretty lame for the most part, and some of the CGI effects were meh. But there was also some really gorgeous stuff (the opening battle is amazing - it makes the Battle of Endor from Return of the Jedi look like two kids playing Cowboys and Indians), the acting was improved, and there were some kickass lightsaber fights. There was more meat to the story, too, which made it more entertaining.

Overall, it was worth the money, but I think that the people who are ranking this with The Empire Strikes Back as the best in the series are out of their minds.

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Zeta]Oh, and on a closing note. Siren, it seems that Jedi can "officially" sense deception/etc..

[i]Revenge of the Sith[/i] pg. 249

[spoiler]Your Jedi senses, Anakin. Your ability to [i]read evil intent[/i]. I have no doubt these Senators will put some virtuous facade on their plotting; with your help, we will pierce that veil and discover the truth.[/spoiler]

Not EU, but part of the G-canon in your link in an earlier post, the [i]absolute[/i] canon. ^_^;;[/QUOTE]
Then an even [i]greater[/i] indictment of the Jedi. They had the ability, and [i]even then[/i] couldn't use it, because they were so wrapped up in themselves and so ignorant of the real world. If they have the ability, then they have no excuse. It's a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" type of thing.

As for Episode III "proving" Lucas works closely with the EU authors, it doesn't really "prove" anything. All it does is show just how volatile and scattered the EU really is, especially when Lucas has to write-in (rather, [i]wedge[/i]-in) "saves" like that (and sometimes, the "saves" actually make things worse for everything).

Take, for example, the Order of Whills. We learn in Episode III that [spoiler]the Force Spirit ability has to be learned, essentially. Qui-Gon will teach it to Yoda, who then teaches it to Obi-Wan.[/spoiler]

But this doesn't help anything, particularly the post-RotJ Force Spirit EU. In fact, it only further [i]damages[/i] the EU.

Anakin has a Force Spirit at the end of RotJ, but nowhere in the Prequels was he ever instructed by a Light Side Jedi how to attain one. Qui-Gon discovers the technique post-mortem; Yoda learns it from him; Obi-Wan learns it from Yoda. None of them teach it to Anakin, because by that point, he's gone...fallen to the Dark Side.

And yet he still has a Force Spirit in RotJ. Where could he have learned it? Who could have instructed him? Well, who were his masters throughout the Saga? Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, a smattering of Yoda...and Darth Sidious.

It's clear by RotJ that Anakin has learned the ability. Otherwise, he wouldn't have a Force Spirit, but he doesn't learn it from a Light Side Jedi. Hell, the only three LS Jedi in the Prequels who eventually possess the ability only learn of it when Anakin is no longer on their side.

So, learning it from a Light Side Jedi is entirely impossible. Hence, he must have learned it from Palpatine. Hence, Palpatine has the ability. Hence, it's not a technique exclusive to the Light Side. Hence, the post-RotJ EU that features the Force Spirits is wholly incorrect by not granting Palpatine a Force Spirit, because going by the films, he should...he definitely should.

[Zeta]

[quote] Then an even greater indictment of the Jedi. They had the ability, and even then couldn't use it, because they were so wrapped up in themselves and so ignorant of the real world. If they have the ability, then they have no excuse. It's a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" type of thing.[/quote]

Which goes back to the Dark Side clouding everything. Have you read the novel? It only provides more truth in Yoda's line. It isn't just themselves to blame Siren, why continue to say that it is? There is ample evidence that they are not the only ones to blame. They are not 100% at fault.

Remember the little speech between Anakin and Sidious in his chambers? "To cheat death, only one has mastered. But together I am sure we will find a way." Or something similar to that end. I have no doubt in my mind that they both were able to find a way. And the fact that Anakin redeemed himself in ROTJ he no longer has the handicap of having to find a clone body to sustain himself as Palpatine does.

We know that the Dark Side basically "uses" up the user, especially if they draw as upon it as heavily as Sidious does. Does that mean this cannot apply after ones death? So yes, why can this not apply after death as well. Without the body, he cannot sustain himself because of the tremendous toll that his power still takes on him even in death, since he doesn't relearn all his teachings after he dies. So it is quite possible, and makes sense that the effects of such power usage could destroy him completely, if he doesn't get to a clone in time.

But he didn't find a way to become one with t he Force, as Obi-Wan and co. do. He just found a way to cheat death. Two different things here. How so? Palpatine didn't become one with the Force. Then how does Anakin have a Force-ghost? By redeeming himself and turning away from the Dark Side and fulfilling the prophecy of the Chose One by bringing balance to the Force with the death of Palpatine.

[quote]As for Episode III "proving" Lucas works closely with the EU authors, it doesn't really "prove" anything. All it does is show just how volatile and scattered the EU really is, especially when Lucas has to write-in (rather, wedge-in) "saves" like that (and sometimes, the "saves" actually make things worse for everything).[/quote]

Can you pelase tell me where I said he works closely with the EU authors? I said he works closely with the authors of the movie novelisations.

lol.Anyways wWho said it was a save? He never said they didn't have the power. What about all those lines i n the movies, all of the movies, along the lines of "I sense much fear in you" etc..They can only sense fear then I take it? It is a logical assumption from things that happen in the movies and the abilities that they have in the movies Siren. It isn't an out of the blue assumption of the Jedi's ability.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Which goes back to the Dark Side clouding everything. Have you read the novel? It only provides more truth in Yoda's line. It isn't just themselves to blame Siren, why continue to say that it is? There is ample evidence that they are not the only ones to blame. They are not 100% at fault.[/quote] What ample evidence is there, Zeta? Is there any [i]concrete proof[/i] the Dark Side was playing a part in the Jedi failure? Think about it. The Jedi Council let their abilities go soft; they became too comfortable with the idea that they were the ultimate cognition in the galaxy; they acted as if they could do no wrong (and boy, did they get quite the wake-up call)...they brought the ****storm down upon themselves. They were stagnant, like the Republic, and out of stagnancy comes destruction.

[quote]Who says that the Force-ghost is a light side thing?[/quote] ...by Force-ghost I'm assuming you mean Force Spirit, and I don't have the time right now, but earlier in this very thread you stated (quoting the EU, I believe) that the Force Spirit is a Light Side ability...but it's nowhere near a Light Side ability, as shown by Episode III.

[quote]Remember the little speech between Anakin and Sidious in his chambers? "To cheat death, only one has mastered. But together I am sure we will find a way." Or something similar to that end. I have no doubt in my mind that they both were able to find a way. And the fact that Anakin redeemed himself in ROTJ he no longer has the handicap of having to find a clone body to sustain himself as Palpatine does.[/quote] Fact of the matter is, Anakin could only have learned how to attain a Force Spirit while serving Palpatine, which would classify the Force Spirit itself as "universal" ability, so Dark Siders and Light Siders alike can possess one, provided they have the training.

And since it's an ability that can be found in the Dark Side as well as the Light Side, "compassion instead of greed" becomes inaccurate, because the Dark Side is hardly compassionate, yet Dark Siders can have the Force Spirit ability same as Light Siders, which would effectively nullify any conjecture that Anakin had found a "loophole" of sorts in his redemption in RotJ. There is no loophole. There's just sloppy writing that doesn't "fix" anything, instead just ends up breaking things even more. lol

[quote]We know that the Dark Side basically "uses" up the user, especially if they draw as upon it as heavily as Sidious does. Does that mean this cannot apply after ones death? So yes, why can this not apply after death as well. Without the body, he cannot sustain himself because of the tremendous toll that his power still takes on him even in death, since he doesn't relearn all his teachings after he dies. So it is quite possible, and makes sense that the effects of such power usage could destroy him completely, if he doesn't get to a clone in time.[/quote] The physical body and the spirit are two entirely different things, affected by entirely different things. Read Descartes, Plato, Anselm, etc. There's nothing in Star Wars to suggest that the Dark Side drains the spirit (i.e., metaphysical) at all. The Emperor's body is whithered from the Dark Side of the Force, but his [i]body[/i] is not the same thing as his [i]immaterial self[/i].

For an example of this idea, look at Obi-Wan. He takes a lightsaber through the face and looks perfectly fine in ESB--and that isn't due to any "Light Side Force Spirit Superiority," because that entire concept is not present at all in the OT, and sure as hell wasn't present back when Lucas was writing the drafts. The idea never crossed his mind--and if it did, then he didn't include it in his final draft, or any rough drafts, for that matter.

The physical state of a body does not affect the spiritual health in Star Wars.

[u][b]EDIT[/b][/u]: And then, also, because the physical state of the body doesn't affect the spiritual health, Palpatine's spiritual degeneration in post-RotJ EU makes no sense at all, because according to the films themselves, the strength of the physical realm does not have any impact on the strength of the metaphysical realm.

And then, because there's no evidence that would justify this spiritual degeneration, it could be said that Palpatine truly never was in any danger of "wasting away" post-mortem.

So then what does that mean? Somewhere along the line, he figured out a way to live indefinitely, post-mortem...and what is that, as we see from Episode III? Order of Whills.

You examine the films, Palpatine's spirit is just as immortal as Qui-Gon's.

[quote]But he didn't find a way to become one with t he Force, as Obi-Wan and co. do. He just found a way to cheat death. Two different things here. How so? Palpatine didn't become one with the Force. Then how does Anakin have a Force-ghost? By redeeming himself and turning away from the Dark Side and fulfilling the prophecy of the Chose One by bringing balance to the Force with the death of Palpatine.[/quote] Careful here. If the Force Spirit is a [i]reward[/i] for doing good things, being on the Light Side of the Force, then we would see many more Force Spirits in the films--and I'd think many other Light Side Jedi have studied the Order of Whills...and we don't see any of them. Becoming one with the Force being a type of benefit of being Light Side? I don't think so.

I think Palpatine definitely found a way to become one with the Force, the exact same thing Qui-Gon discovered. It's an ability available to both sides.

Plus, see above [u][b]Edit[/b][/u].

Plus, with the Saga so obsessed with balance, that's not balance. You have one side [i]supposedly[/i] getting something the other side [i]supposedly[/i] isn't getting. That's not balance. Do you know what is balanced? Light and Dark both possessing the same Force Spirit ability, which seems to be the case now.

[quote]lol. Who said it was a save?[/quote] Come on, Zeta, lol. Look at the differences between the NT and OT and tell me Lucas didn't pull some stuff out of his *** to "mesh" the films with the erratic storytelling seen in the EU because he realized that there was no way in hell the EU was going to be salvagable unless he made drastic (and ridiculously absurd) changes to the source material. You don't see saves? Look at all three Prequels. lol

[quote]He never said they didn't have the power. What about all those lines i n the movies, all of the movies, along the lines of "I sense much fear in you" etc..They can only sense fear then I take it? It is a logical assumption from things that happen in the movies Siren. It isn't an out of the blue assumption of the Jedi's ability.[/QUOTE] You're focusing on a single idea. I'm talking about in general. The EU is more a liability than anything else. They're fun to read, sure, but given what Lucas had to pull in the Prequels just to account for the EU, so the plotlines, ideas, concepts, etc., of the entire Star Wars universe didn't collapse upon themselves?

Proves that Lucas works closely with the authors...no, it doesn't. All it proves is that the EU authors are going in too many different directions for the source material to sustain itself. All it proves is that Lucas only works closely with the authors when he needs to write his way out of a corner (and let's face it, a lot of those "corner writings" were crap). lol

If the EU weren't so scattered, if it were much more focused, more coherent, we wouldn't have the plot twist trainwreck that is the Prequels, simple as that.

[Zeta]

Quick reply, meeting at school for graduation crud.

[quote] What ample evidence is there, Zeta? Is there any concrete proof the Dark Side was playing a part in the Jedi failure? Think about it. The Jedi Council let their abilities go soft; they became too comfortable with the idea that they were the ultimate cognition in the galaxy; they acted as if they could do no wrong (and boy, did they get quite the wake-up call)...they brought the ****storm down upon themselves. They were stagnant, like the Republic, and out of stagnancy comes destruction.[/quote]

Is there concrete proof that it wasn't Siren? You haven't provided me proof of this either. What I have been saying, and have been saying all along, is that it is a half and half fault. The Jedi for allowing themselves to think extrememly high of themselves, diminishing their abilities, which allowed the Dark Side to effectively cloud what little control over their abilities they had left. The Jedi Order has basically stayed the same in its fundamental beliefs and teachings, and not once has it resulted in the Republic being overthrown and the galaxy being thrown into the darkness it is. But when a Dark Lord of the Sith is on the scene in the Jedi's backyard, only then does it occur. It is a 50-50 laying of the blame Siren. Proof? Read the novels. Read the Clone Wars books, specifically [i]Labryinth of Evil[/i] and [i]Revenge of the Sith[/i] itself. As you said it yourself Siren. Lucas stresses points that are important. He stressed the importance in the movies, and it is stressed in the books.

[quote]...by Force-ghost I'm assuming you mean Force Spirit, and I don't have the time right now, but earlier in this very thread you stated (quoting the EU, I believe) that the Force Spirit is a Light Side ability...but it's nowhere near a Light Side ability, as shown by Episode III.[/quote]

Who/what said this? After going through my posts I have failed to find where I make the claim that it is a strictly Light Side ability, and by quoting the EU.

Are you talking about my post where I say that Palpatine coming back to life and taking over a clone body is the parallel to the Jedi Force Spirit?

If so, then I can answer.

[quote]Fact of the matter is, Anakin could only have learned how to attain a Force Spirit while serving Palpatine, which would classify the Force Spirit itself as "universal" ability, so Dark Siders and Light Siders alike can possess one, provided they have the training.[/quote]

[quote]And since it's an ability that can be found in the Dark Side as well as the Light Side, "compassion instead of greed" becomes inaccurate, because the Dark Side is hardly compassionate, yet Dark Siders can have the Force Spirit ability same as Light Siders, which would effectively nullify any conjecture that Anakin had found a "loophole" of sorts in his redemption in RotJ. There is no loophole. There's just sloppy writing that doesn't "fix" anything, instead just ends up breaking things even more. lol[/quote]

How is it an ability found in the Dark Side? Palpatine doesn't come back as a Force Spirit. Anakin does, but he isn't part of the Dark Side any longer. Palpatine found a way to cheat death, not become immortal. How he is not immortal? Because his new body can still be killed and he has to transfer to a new body quickly, otherwise he will be lost forever. Why is it so hard to believe, that Anakin being the Chosen One, the most powerful Jedi and the one who brings balance to the Force, cannot become one with the Force for exactly that reason?

[quote] Careful here. If the Force Spirit is a reward for doing good things, being on the Light Side of the Force, then we would see many more Force Spirits in the films--and I'd think many other Light Side Jedi have studied the Order of Whills...and we don't see any of them. Becoming one with the Force being a type of benefit of being Light Side? I don't think so.[/quote]

Simple answer? George Lucas didn't want anymore Jedi to dissapear after death. He stopped it from happening in the later NJO books, and the Jedi that die in the prequels. He wanted to explain to us the mystery behind the Force Spirit. In all technicality, that is why we do not see them.

Anyways...a more...on the topic answer.

Where do I say it is a reward for doing good things? lol. I said Yoda and Obi-Wan become one with the Force. How? We now have the answer that Qui-Gon taught Yoda and Obi-Wan. And I repeat what I said above. Why is it so impossible to believe that Anakin, the Chosen One, who brings balance to the Force and is the most powerful Jedi has this ability for exactly that reason?

What did Lucas pull in the Prequels to match with the EU? I am curious. We know that he completely ignored the original Clone Wars dates set forth in the Thrawn Trilogy. Why would he ignore something has important as that, but make adjustments for other things? Unless I am missing the add-ins you are talking about concering his adjustments to accomodate the EU, please point them out to me.

EDIT: Addes some stuff.

All right, in this small part I am going to be on your side. Lets only take the movies into play here, seeing as how that seems to be the only source you will accept, regardless of what we can safely assume as canon.

You and I both know of Palpatine's line in ROTS that says something along the lines of "to cheat death only one has mastered, but together we can find a way." And at the end of ROTJ we have Anakin coming back as a Force Spirit, but not Palpatine, but you say that Palpatine [i]should[/i] have one too correct? At least that is what I get from this statement:

[i]Light and Dark both possessing the same Force Spirit ability, which seems to be the case now.[/i]

Why do you say this? Where is your basis? Because Palpatine says they can figure it out? And because Anakin has a Force Spirit at the end?

Palpatine does not. Why? He should right? Not necesarily.

Palpatine does has not figured out the secrets of the Force Spirit. Otherwise I am sure Lucas would have put [i]something[/i] in there correct? But no he doesn't. Palpatine is "destroyed" on the Death Star. Which means that Anakin doesn't learn it from Palpatine. How else can Anakin then become a Force Spirit after death? He naturally has this ability. Not because he does good deeds as you claim I have said. But because he is the Chosen One. The one who brings balance to the Force.

And now, using this, we can bring the EU into play. Palpatine [i]never[/i] comes back as a Force Spirit. Not once do you see a Force Spirit of him. You have him die, and then he transfers to a clone body right away. He [i]needs[/i] a clone body to survive. Why? Because he hasn't figured out the true secret to immortal life as Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, and Anakin have.

If Palpatine had taught Anakin the secrets of become a Force Spirit, Palpatine would have no need for the clones. All Palpatine has done is found a way to prolong his life. A life that he is not immortal in, because he can still be destroyed.

My apologies if there are spelling mistakes, my word program is going whacko and I keep having to send error reports. -_-

[Brasil]

[quote name='Zeta']Is there concrete proof that it wasn't Siren? You haven't provided me proof of this either. What I have been saying, and have been saying all along, is that it is a half and half fault. The Jedi for allowing themselves to think extrememly high of themselves, diminishing their abilities, which allowed the Dark Side to effectively cloud what little control over their abilities they had left. The Jedi Order has basically stayed the same in its fundamental beliefs and teachings, and not once has it resulted in the Republic being overthrown and the galaxy being thrown into the darkness it is. But when a Dark Lord of the Sith is on the scene in the Jedi's backyard, only then does it occur. It is a 50-50 laying of the blame Siren. Proof? Read the novels. Read the Clone Wars books, specifically Labryinth of Evil and Revenge of the Sith itself. As you said it yourself Siren. Lucas stresses points that are important. He stressed the importance in the movies, and it is stressed in the books.[/quote] Clone Wars books=EU. I don't use the EU when talking about the films (or material, ideas, concepts, etc. of the films), because the EU does not reflect Lucas' original intent with the original films ("original films" referring to the original concepts and ideas), because the EU was barely the comic book adaptations, if that.

Lucas fought for sequel rights, merchandising, etc. back in the 70s, yes, which would indicate a consideration to further extension of Star Wars, but a New Jedi Order was not on his mind back when he was writing the original Saga, nor were Sith Lords circa KotOR, nor were post-RotJ possessions (The Exorcist in Star Wars? Lucas isn?t that cheesy lol), nor was the history of the Old Republic before the Saga begins...nothing in the EU, Zeta. The Saga was written as entirely self-contained, especially the OT.

Do you know why Obi-Wan repeats "point of view" throughout the OT? Because "point of view" is the reason the Jedi Council and Old Republic fell, and Obi-Wan realized that after reflecting upon what happened. Look at who he hears "point of view" from in the Prequels: Qui-Gon, Count Dooku, Anakin. These are characters that challenge the Jedi Council's worldview, and clearly had a profound impact on Obi-Wan's worldview, as evidenced by his behavior and dialogue in the OT.

In the Prequels, he is very adamant and steadfast in his beliefs, criticizing Anakin, insulting politicians, etc., and this is the same type of attitude demonstrated by the Jedi Council. They are limited by their point of view, and it is this point of view of theirs in the Prequels that leads to their downfall, because if their point of view wasn't the only issue in the Prequels, Obi-Wan would not be repeating "point of view" so much in the OT.

What do you think Obi-Wan?s ?you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view? was referring to? What truths could he be talking about? I?d say one of those truths could definitely be ?Dark Side clouds everything,? because it?s the Jedi Council?s rationalization for failure?it?s a truth to them, but ultimately, a truth that depends greatly on their own point of view.

And the expressing of that Jedi truth, the ?Dark Side clouding everything? truth, begins to diminish throughout the Prequels to the point of not even appearing as a possibility anymore, and interestingly enough, the only two characters who could have said anything about a possible Dark Side attribution to a Jedi failure in the Prequels (Obi-Wan and Yoda) don?t say anything.

And we both agree that when Lucas wants to emphasize something, he?ll repeat it ad nauseum through the Saga, like ?point of view.? We must hear that phrase at least three or four times in Episode III alone. And I?d think we?ll also both agree that he only mentioned ?Dark Side clouds everything? twice in the 6 films, thrice at most, and only in the Prequels. There?s a reason for that, and it depends on the limits of perception, specifically ?the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.?

The Dark Side doesn?t cloud anything, because that truth was a truth only to the Jedi point of view of the Prequels, back before they realized they were blinding themselves.

And Dooku?s dialogue in Episode II, while it seems like a confirmation of the Dark Side clouding the Jedi vision, is actually just as unreliable as a statement from the Jedi Council, because of point of view yet again. Palpatine was playing Dooku for a fool the entire time, telling him exactly what he needed to hear/know/say/etc so Palpatine could accomplish what he wanted, and come Episode III, Dooku?s usefulness had waned, and we saw what happened there, hehe. So it?s entirely likely that Dooku was merely reporting what Palpatine was feeding him, so it was a truth only from Dooku?s point of view, and not necessarily the actual truth, just like the Jedi Council?s assessment.

So like I?ve said before, when you take into account what we?re seeing, hearing, experiencing, in the films, and how very specific ideologies and concepts play off of each other throughout the Saga (films only; EU is crap lol), the probability that the Dark Side was even exploiting a Jedi weakness drops dramatically, to the point of being a running joke, haha.

[quote]Who/what said this? After going through my posts I have failed to find where I make the claim that it is a strictly Light Side ability, and by quoting the EU.

Are you talking about my post where I say that Palpatine coming back to life and taking over a clone body is the parallel to the Jedi Force Spirit?

If so, then I can answer.[/quote] [quote name='Zeta']By reading the Dark Empire comics where this is found, we are told that Palpatine has to hurry himself to a clone. Otherwise his spirit will fade away. When he comes back, he doesn?t become more powerful. He is exactly what he was when he did. But the Jedi are able to stay in their ghost form, not having to worry about finding a clone/what have you to continue on. Not only does this show the Dark Side?s weakness it the ability to keep him alive after death, it shows that the Light Side is not weaker. It shows that the Jedi can survive without the use of a body; taking away weakness Palpatine has of needing a body to just be able to survive.[/quote] So you weren?t establishing a difference between the Dark Side and Light Side post-mortem abilities (in effect establishing the Force Spirit as strictly Light Side, keep in mind), through quoting the EU?

[quote]Palpatine doesn't come back as a Force Spirit.[/quote] And that?s exactly why the EU is crap, especially in light of what is revealed in Episode III.

[quote]Anakin does, but he isn't part of the Dark Side any longer. Palpatine found a way to cheat death, not become immortal. How he is not immortal? Because his new body can still be killed and he has to transfer to a new body quickly, otherwise he will be lost forever. Why is it so hard to believe, that Anakin being the Chosen One, the most powerful Jedi and the one who brings balance to the Force, cannot become one with the Force for exactly that reason?[/quote] But if the ability is available to the Dark Side, why would a switch to the Light Side even matter? The switch wouldn?t change anything, because there?s nothing to be changed in the first place. And again, what happens in the EU is irrelevant, because going by the films themselves, the premise of the EU post-mortem material is broken, so any reference to the EU is useless at this point.

[quote]Simple answer? George Lucas didn't want anymore Jedi to disappear after death. He stopped it from happening in the later NJO books, and the Jedi that die in the prequels. He wanted to explain to us the mystery behind the Force Spirit. In all technicality, that is why we do not see them.[/quote] And the simple answer is an authorial contrivance that violates the very principles and rules set forth in the films themselves. There are no limitations to the Order of Whills. Anyone can do it, especially given what we see in the entire film Saga.

[quote]Anyways...a more...on the topic answer.

Where do I say it is a reward for doing good things? lol. I said Yoda and Obi-Wan become one with the Force. How? We now have the answer that Qui-Gon taught Yoda and Obi-Wan. And I repeat what I said above. Why is it so impossible to believe that Anakin, the Chosen One, who brings balance to the Force and is the most powerful Jedi has this ability for exactly that reason?[/quote] Well, when you say it?s what Light Siders get for being on the Light Side, I?d classify that as a reward. lol

And it?s impossible because it?s established to be impossible by what we have in the films, and what we have in the films only further destroys a significant portion of the EU.

[quote]What did Lucas pull in the Prequels to match with the EU? I am curious. We know that he completely ignored the original Clone Wars dates set forth in the Thrawn Trilogy. Why would he ignore something has important as that, but make adjustments for other things? Unless I am missing the add-ins you are talking about concerning his adjustments to accommodate the EU, please point them out to me.[/QUOTE] Order of Whills (but even this still borks the EU, despite Lucas? best efforts to ?mesh?), Dark Side clouding things (check the OT, nothing there about that, loads of stuff in the EU); the Star Wars website has a lot of things, as well.

[quote]Why would he ignore something has important as that, but make adjustments for other things?[/quote] It?s called having to account for a whole boatload of discrepancies and variations and basically losing control of his creation due to merchandising and mass-marketing. Do you think the Prequels would be such plot twist trainwrecks if the EU didn?t exist?

[quote]All right, in this small part I am going to be on your side. Lets only take the movies into play here, seeing as how that seems to be the only source you will accept, regardless of what we can safely assume as canon.[/quote] The reason I don?t regard the EU as anything more than Fanfiction.net sidestories is because so much of it was written so long after the original penning of the original ideas and concepts that regarding them as literarily legitimate would violate every single literature principle I?ve studied over the years.

To treat the EU as being applicable in discussions about the films, I would have to view John Dryden?s ?All for Love? as relevant to what Shakespeare was doing in ?Antony and Cleopatra? (All for Love was Dryden?s ?version? of Antony and Cleopatra) and similarly, John Milton?s ?Paradise Lost? being perfectly appropriate supplementary material to the book of Genesis?and talk to any lit professor and they?ll tell you Milton was doing something entirely different than what the idea behind the book of Genesis was.

Get what I mean? Creative materials written after the fact are never going to be accurate enough to warrant placing such value in them. That?s not to say All for Love and Paradise Lost are bad?far from it. They rock as fiction?but they just don?t have any weight when it comes to the source material, because they?re just as much sidestories/variations/adaptations to their source material as the EU is to Star Wars. The EU is only relevant because people have labeled it as relevant, and people are far too eager to believe ?The EU is canon as per LucasFilm? rather than actually examining the films exclusively, then comparing/contrasting the EU with/against the films and arriving at a conclusion reached independently of any LucasFilm statements.

[quote]You and I both know of Palpatine's line in ROTS that says something along the lines of "to cheat death only one has mastered, but together we can find a way." And at the end of ROTJ we have Anakin coming back as a Force Spirit, but not Palpatine, but you say that Palpatine should have one too correct? At least that is what I get from this statement:

Light and Dark both possessing the same Force Spirit ability, which seems to be the case now.

Why do you say this? Where is your basis? Because Palpatine says they can figure it out? And because Anakin has a Force Spirit at the end?

Palpatine does not. Why? He should right? Not necessarily.

Palpatine has not figured out the secrets of the Force Spirit. Otherwise I am sure Lucas would have put something in there correct? But no he doesn't. Palpatine is "destroyed" on the Death Star.[/quote] You?re missing a key point here: the timespan between RotS and ANH is roughly 20 years (Luke?s age as a frame of reference)?more than enough time for both Palpy and Anakin to work it out together.

And just examine it in the context of the films. What are the films telling us? Everything points (damn near confirms, really) that Palpatine has a Force Spirit, established through plot developments throughout the Saga.

[quote]Which means that Anakin doesn't learn it from Palpatine. How else can Anakin then become a Force Spirit after death?[/quote] But Anakin does learn it from Palpatine. There?s no other way.

[quote]He naturally has this ability. Not because he does good deeds as you claim I have said. But because he is the Chosen One. The one who brings balance to the Force.[/quote] But it?s the Order of Whills or nothing. The only reason anyone has a Force Spirit in the Saga is Order of Whills. And since it?s only Order of Whills, if Anakin has figured it out, Palpatine has, as well.

[quote]And now, using this, we can bring the EU into play. Palpatine never comes back as a Force Spirit. Not once do you see a Force Spirit of him. You have him die, and then he transfers to a clone body right away. He needs a clone body to survive. Why? Because he hasn't figured out the true secret to immortal life as Obi-Wan, Yoda, Qui-Gon, and Anakin have.

If Palpatine had taught Anakin the secrets of become a Force Spirit, Palpatine would have no need for the clones. All Palpatine has done is found a way to prolong his life. A life that he is not immortal in, because he can still be destroyed.[/quote] But see, you?re basing this on the idea that the EU is accurate because Palpatine wouldn?t have the same ability as Anakin, but Palpatine would (and does) have the same ability, according to the films themselves.

The films give us an almost certainty that Palpatine also unlocked the Force Spirit ability same as Anakin, so to bring in the post-RotJ EU and try to counterclaim that is exceedingly foolish, because not only are you making a leap from the films to the EU that you haven?t yet justified, the films take precedent over the EU, and according to the films themselves, Palpatine has a Force Spirit?the EU is wrong by not granting Palpy his Force Spirit.

Palpatine only needs a clone body because of the post-RotJ EU. He only needs to continue to place himself within clones because of the post-RotJ EU. He only never comes back as a Force Spirit because of the post-RotJ EU.

And Episode III only further breaks the post-RotJ EU.

[quote]My apologies if there are spelling mistakes, my word program is going whacko and I keep having to send error reports. [/quote] No worries.

[Zeta]

I am going to repeat what I have said a few other times; you and I will get nowhere with this argument. I wish to regard the EU and all Star Wars books not labeled as Infinities as relevant material because I am able to do so, since they are canon, and are only regarded as bogus if they contradict something from the films. And I assure you; nothing I have said has been contradicted in the films. And if it has, you have no provied ample proof to show it contradicts something in the films.

Have you read the Episode 3 novelisation? I am assuming you at least regard [i]that[/i] as relevant material to draw upon? Hopefully you do, otherwise this will fall on deaf ears.

Near the end, when the decision of where [spoiler] Luke and Leia will be hidden, we see a little conversation between Yoda and Qui-Gon. We have Yoda blatantly blaming him and the Jedi order for their fall. He goes on to say that they have been training for the [i]last[/i] war with the Sith, a failure in their teachings (which if you remember, I said at the beginning of the debate). Qui-Gon, whom Yoda holds as a much more powerful Jedi at this time, blatantly tells him to not blame himself. That it is not only his fault. Which is what I have been saying as well. Yes, the Jedi brought upon a lot of the hardships they faced by themselves. But as Yoda said, their teachings have remained the same, and not once has the Republic fallen. Only when the Dark Side and Palpatine come into play within the Republic itself, do they fail.[/spoiler] it is a 50-50 situation. I have yet to see a situation in SW and real life where there is only one person at fault. *shrug* though I guess that is just me.

[quote]But if the ability is available to the Dark Side, why would a switch to the Light Side even matter? The switch wouldn?t change anything, because there?s nothing to be changed in the first place. And again, what happens in the EU is irrelevant, because going by the films themselves, the premise of the EU post-mortem material is broken, so any reference to the EU is useless at this point.[/quote]

Who says it is Dark Side ability as well? You haven't given any concrete proof that is is Siren. You are basing this off of the fact that Anakin has a Force Spirit at the end. That isn't proof enough. If Palpatine does indeed have the same power, Lucas would not have ended the saga with how he did. With the destruction of the Sith. With the Force being brought into balance, regardless of your take on the matter, Lucas said it was in balance and I am taking his word over interpretations.

He would give you inkling that Palpatine does indeed have a Force Spirit. We do not see it, anywhere. He obviously does not know the ability to the extent that we see with Obi-Wan, Anaking, and Yoda. Do I know how Anakin can do it and not Palpatine? No. I am making a guess. But that fact that we see no shred of evidence that Palpatine also has the ability to have a Force Spirit, it is obvious he does not have the ability. There is obviously something that Anakin knows and Palpatine doesn't.

Again, why is it impossible that Anakin is not naturally inclined to have the ability? It is entirely possible that he doesn't even know he has the ability. And could this not be another form of the manipulation of Palpatine at work? Making Anakin believe that he, like everyone else is mortal, and that the only way to continue his existence is to search it out? Which ensures that he stays loyal to Palpatine so that he can "find" the way to do it. We know Anakin has this thing with stopping people from dieing, and I see no reason Anakin wouldn't want to live himself.

By making Anakin think that the only way he can cheat death, is with Palpatine's help, is the perfect way to make him go on a "goose hunt" on how to figure out, without even knowing he already has the ability. Just because Palpatine says they will both find the answer, doesn't prove that he did indeed find the answer in the end as well.

Instead of finding the answer to immortality in the "shape" (for lack of better word at the moment) of a Force Spirit, Palpatine finds his way to immortality by inhabiting clones.

I hardly see Lucas trying to mesh [i]anything[/i] in with the films. The only "meshing" I have seen is him taking the name of Coruscant as the capital planet. The dates with the Clone Wars aren?t meshing. The comment in Episode II ( I believe) from that old guy on Naboo about a full-scale war with the Republic goes against events from the EU that tells otherwise. He isn't meshing the EU in, he is unmeshing. And that is entirely within his power to do so.

But does that mean all EU is unreliable? No.

And again onto your comments with the EU. Entirely your choice. But I can safely draw upon the EU when talking about SW. Your canon link only proves that I can. But you are entirely up to your own devices if you want to be a movies only person.

[quote]And just examine it in the context of the films. What are the films telling us? Everything points (damn near confirms, really) that Palpatine has a Force Spirit, established through plot developments throughout the Saga.[/quote]

Where? What? A single sentence damn near confirms it?

[quote] But Anakin does learn it from Palpatine. There?s no other way.[/quote]

Where does it say this?

[quote]But it?s the Order of Whills or nothing. The only reason anyone has a Force Spirit in the Saga is Order of Whills. And since it?s only Order of Whills, if Anakin has figured it out, Palpatine has, as well.[/quote]

Is it not possible that he could have figured it out himself, if he had to actually figure it out at all? Palpatine said himself that Vader will become more powerful than himself and Yoda. With that in mind, assuming of course Anakin has to figure out how to do it, he could easily figure it out and leave Palpatine in the dust about it.

[quote]But see, you?re basing this on the idea that the EU is accurate because Palpatine wouldn?t have the same ability as Anakin, but Palpatine would (and does) have the same ability, according to the films themselves.[/quote]

Again, where? Where does it say/show/what have you say he has the same ability. Just because he says they will find a way, does not provide concrete evidence that he figures out how.



Take it all with a grain of salt. Some stuff was drawn from the official novelisation, some from EU books, and some from the movie. *shrug*

Just curious, but what was your profession in Galaxies? I'm on my way to be a Bounty Hunter myself. Game has picked up now that I can actually kill things, heh.

[Dragon Warrior]

I fear that the fact is that [b]hardcore Star Wars fans[/b] weren't as pleased with the 3rd episode as [b]fans and nobodies[/b] were. That's disappointing because as a mediocre fan of Star Wars (as in, I don't drool over the stuff as some of you do) I enjoyed the movie to its full extent. I did not see really any bad acting, I did not hear terrible dialogue, and I most certainly believed everything was tied together perfectly. If you're so picky about the movie, you should be taken out into the middle of the street and beaten with a chair leg and we wish to give you mercy, I shall pour just lava down your pants and not acid.

My father goes to a movie forum (where he hardly posts) and there's a whole thread there that's made up of almost 1000 posts within a few days just about George using the "Wilhelm scream" in episode three. That is beyond sad. If these films cannot be enjoyed without having to nit-pick every single thing, then I'm not sure where movies have gone anymore. I'm not very pleased with this at all. I understand it's fun to discuss this sort of thing and have intelligent arguments over certain matters, but things like the Wilhelm thread is a little overdoing it. For God sakes, I even witnessed a thread where people complained about a jedi's lightsaber that was originally green in the old Star Wars episodes was now blue in the remastered DvD versions. For the love of Tie Fighters...

Putting aside my frustration with retarded nerds spitting on Lucas' masterpiece, I'd like to congratulate George on a successful saga finally put to rest with its last edition. I was mesmerized throughout the whole third episode and believed it to complete everything perfectly. [spoiler]I feared that he was just going to have Palpetine (pardon me if I just butchered his name) influence Anakin by just a bunch of talk, but since Anakin turned evil for Padme's sake, I was relieved greatly. Everything else just fell into place and even though I hated seeing Anakin turn evil (I did believe they did a good acting job there, so shush >: O ), I was satisfied to see how everything came together in the end. How the storm troopers joined Sidious, how Anakin became Vader, how Padme died, and how Yoda and Obi Wan got to where they were in the last episodes.[/spoiler]

A grand end to a grand saga. I do hope they make seven through nine.

Why do I sense a load of people yelling at me after this? :P

[Dagger]

[quote name='Dragon Warrior]I fear that the fact is that [b]hardcore Star Wars fans[/b] weren't as pleased with the 3rd episode as [b]fans and nobodies[/b'] were.[/quote]
Well, I for one am very far from being a hardcore Star Wars fan. I've always liked and enjoyed the original movies, but I'm probably less of a fan than most of the people who've been posting in this thread, if one can quantify such things.

[quote]I did not see really any bad acting, I did not hear terrible dialogue, and I most certainly believed everything was tied together perfectly.[/quote]
This is all perhaps a matter of taste, but as an example...

[spoiler]During one of the scenes early on (when Padme and Anakin are still all lovey-dovey), Anakin is standing there watching her gaze out the window or whatever. After a few seconds, he starts murmuring, "You're so..." and all I could think at the time was "Oh, for the love of all that's holy, [i]please[/i] don't say 'You're so... beautiful.'" And he did. The exchange that follows (something about her only being beautiful because he's so in love with her, and some stupid quip along the lines of "So love has blinded you?") is so insipid and woodenly acted that--no offense intended to anyone--I honestly have trouble understanding how one could take it seriously.

And let's not even get into the infamous "NOOOOO~!!!11!!![/spoiler]

I can usually handle plenty of lines with the cheesiness factor of something like "You're so beautiful" or "I have a bad feeling about this" (heck, this kind of thing abounds in the original trilogy, and the latter quote is classic!), but in the case of RotS, I just couldn't swallow any of it. *shrugs* Your mileage might vary.

[quote]If you're so picky about the movie, you should be taken out into the middle of the street and beaten with a chair leg and we wish to give you mercy, I shall pour just lava down your pants and not acid.[/QUOTE]
And you say you're not a hardcore Star Wars fan? Hm... :animeswea

~Dagger~