Defining relationships

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I've been thinking about the healthy progression of relationships, and am now going to try and get my thoughts down.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Relationships [i]must[/i] come in steps, and certain criteria must be met in order to be in a healthy relationship.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Trust[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Trust between two people is a requirement for any sort of companionship, and that is what I will call a relationship consisting of trust; companionship.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. Amiability[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]When both people have a certain fondness for each other, and trust has already been established, a friendship develops.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]In my personal opinion, this is where same-sex relationships should stop.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]3. Attraction[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]If two people are attracted to each other, trust each other, and are amiable towards each other, a romantic relationship is [i]possible[/i], but not at all necessary.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]This is as far as I can get right now from experience. If further steps for closer relationships seem like a good idea, or if one thinks there are certain steps missing or incomplete, feel free to post them.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Now, I will pose a couple questions.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]1. Am I wrong, here?[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]2. If I am correct, why do people attempt to enter into, or desire to enter into romantic relationships without meeting the first two criteria? It seems so common to me, and yet so very wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[rainkius]

I don't think those things happen in that order, necessarily. I'm friendly to people way before i fully trust them. Trust takes a long time to build, and someone can be your friend before that, bc trust isn't black and white - there are varying degrees. Like you might trust someone enough to tell them you have a crush on someone and know they won't tell anyone, but you might not trust them enough to tell them you have, say, an eating disorder.

And there can definitely be attraction there without either trust or amiability. Sex can be separated. That's why people get into relationships like that... that or they just want to have a S.O. regardless of who it is.

[future girl]

I think it's more like Attraction, Amiability and then Trust most of the time. Like rainkius said trust takes a long time to build and moreover I don't think most people begin a relationship thinking "This is it for the rest of my life," and so it's not very difficult to jump into things just for the momentary gain. You can't really say, I trust this person so I'll be amicable toward them and then be physically attracted, it's just not how it works. You're attracted so you're friends in hopes to gain something deeper, at least that's how it's worked for me in the past. Whatever the case, I don't actually follow any specific, or non-specific for that matter, guideline. As corny as it sounds I let my feelings guide me and feelings are irrational and can lead you to make some dumb decisions, but if anything they do make some memorable romances.

[Zidargh]

[size=1] Trust and Honesty are the two main foundations of any relationship I've found. It's ashame that I become incredibly insecure when I have a girlfriend, or when I did have a girlfriend. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't stop thinking about the other guys after my girlfriend. I was much younger then though.

But as already said, the way a couple comes together is through attraction, whether that be by physical appearance or personality, there needs to be something to attract someone's attention into you. I feel attraction is the spark of a relationship. It's just about maintaining that flame when you're in one, which can be incredibly hard.

I don't feel a relationship can be [i]defined[/i] in a sense, because there are so many different relationships out there, such as friendship, family, or even love/hate relationships. But to create one, there definitely needs to be foundations, for I believe relationships are about building up on something.


[b][Z][/b][/size]

[Godelsensei]

[COLOR=Gray][FONT=Courier New]You can't develop trust for some one without being amiable first. Why would you trust some one who was a complete asshole about your saying hello?

From what I can take in from the people around me, a friend is more trustworthy than some one you're involved in a romantic relationship with, anyway.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[James]

[color=#707875]You are wrong for two reasons.

1) There are no hard-and-fast rules when it comes to a relationship. Some people are friends for many years before they decide to enter into a romantic relationship. While others (perhaps most people), experience physical attraction first, with trust and other aspects developing over a period of time.

2) People do not enter relationships for logical reasons, most of the time. This is why it is impossible to simply tell someone to "stop having a relationship". Human beings are not so simple. Generally speaking, people enter relationships for emotional reasons -- based on their own feelings, which are out of their control.

Like I've said in previous threads, you can't simply look at someone who you find attractive and say to yourself "As of this second, I will [i]not[/i] find them attractive". It just doesn't work that way. Relationships vary from person to person and as I mentioned above, I don't think there are any particular rules that can or should dictate how relationships form. The truth is, everyone is different.[/color]

[rainkius]

[quote name='James][color=#707875]Like I've said in previous threads, you can't simply look at someone who you find attractive and say to yourself "As of this second, I will [i]not[/i'] find them attractive". It just doesn't work that way.[/color][/quote]

Oh my god, it would be fantastic if this were possible though... My life would be much less stressful because i wouldn't be pining over two guys i can't have. I'm sure everyone could say something similar has happened to them at some point in their life.

[Lilt]

[font=Book Antiqua][size=2][color=darkorchid]Well, to answer your first question. Yes you are wrong, and at the same time, you're not. Serious relationships will fall apart if there isn't trust, attraction, or friendship with a person. If you can't trust someone you love, you might suspect their cheating on you or something. If you're not attracted to the person, you might cheat on them, or not stay in the relationship very wrong. And now here's an important one. Friendship. (Not that trust isn't important, too.) If you're not friends with the person, you might argue with them, or just not have anything to talk about with them. But like everyone else said in many different ways, there isn't a certain order for all of this to happen to have a good relationship.[/color][/size][/font]

[QUOTE=Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]When both people have a certain fondness for each other, and trust has already been established, a friendship develops.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]In my personal opinion, this is where same-sex relationships should stop.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[/QUOTE][size=2][/size]
[font=Book Antiqua][size=2][color=darkorchid]So why do you think same-sex relationships should stop at friendships? (I'm just curious to hear you're opinion on this.)[/color][/size][/font]

[Lady_Rin]

[QUOTE=Sonata][font=Book Antiqua][size=2][color=darkorchid] Serious relationships will fall apart if there isn't trust, attraction, or friendship with a person. If you can't trust someone you love, you might suspect their cheating on you or something. If you're not attracted to the person, you might cheat on them, or not stay in the relationship very wrong. And now here's an important one. Friendship. (Not that trust isn't important, too.) If you're not friends with the person, you might argue with them, or just not have anything to talk about with them. But like everyone else said in many different ways, there isn't a certain order for all of this to happen to have a good relationship.[/color][/size][/font]
[color=dodgerblue]
[font=comic sans ms][size=2]
There is far more than trust, amiability and attraction to a relationship. There are things that most people today laugh at, even about us after 21 years of marriage. Trust, amiability and attraction are not the major reasons for our lasting relationship. I doubt that they are even minor reasons. What has held us together is love pure and simple. You can't have any of what you have spoke of without it. It has held us together through some very hard times. Times that have driven many of our friends to divorce. Times I lived in terror yet knowing my husband was there I knew I was safe.

We met at a ball neither of us wanted to attend. I had never met any one like Ranger and even allowed him into my flat that first night. We were married three months later in a faerie tale wedding at Disneyworld. Why does it work? With Ranger I feel loved all of the time even when he's not there. I also feel protected and I have need for that protection physical and emotional. For Ranger it's love, security and someone to care for. It is because of the love we feel for each other our realtionship has lasted this long even with children. If you have that you don't need anything else since it's everything else already part of your relationship as a result of your love. Everybodys needs are different yet everbody needs love.

I have seen many relationships built on concepts like trust, amiability, attraction, etc Most have failed and when they fail usually nothing is left but anger and hurt.

[URL=http://home.earthlink.net/~lady_rin/bodyandsoul.html][color=deeppink]
[font=comic sans ms][size=2]Click here for an anime explaination of our relationship. I really do feel this way.[/URL] [/size][/font][/color]

[size=1]Since this is my first post; this link is acceptable on PG rated anime forums elsewhere as are all others I post. If this is not appropiate here please remove it or or let me know and I shall make an edit it the next time I'm here. - Thank You.[/size][/size][/font][/color]



Do you use *actions* here? If so *hugs to you all*. If not; then keep the hugs anyway.

.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Sonata][font=Book Antiqua][size=2][color=darkorchid]Well, to answer your first question. Yes you are wrong, and at the same time, you're not. Serious relationships will fall apart if there isn't trust, attraction, or friendship with a person. If you can't trust someone you love, you might suspect their cheating on you or something. If you're not attracted to the person, you might cheat on them, or not stay in the relationship very wrong. And now here's an important one. Friendship. (Not that trust isn't important, too.) If you're not friends with the person, you might argue with them, or just not have anything to talk about with them. But like everyone else said in many different ways, there isn't a certain order for all of this to happen to have a good relationship.[/color][/size][/font]


[font=Book Antiqua][size=2][color=darkorchid]So why do you think same-sex relationships should stop at friendships? (I'm just curious to hear you're opinion on this.)[/color][/size][/font][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]In response to the first part, I didn't put them in the order they had to occur, rather than what I see as the order of importance. Without trust, friendship is nothing. Without friendship, attraction is nothing, and so on. So long as those steps are behind you, there is a good chance you will have a healthy relationship, and if that relationship ends, it should end well for both parties.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]As for same-sex relationships, they just seem unnatural to me. Of course, I should have said I disapprove of male-male relationships beyond friendship. I don't want to get into details, but let's just say two women would be hard-pressed to engage in any act I would consider true sex.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']In response to the first part, I didn't put them in the order they had to occur, rather than what I see as the order of importance.[/quote]
So, you [i]didn't[/i] make a step-by-step analysis? You do realize that when you list "steps," and number them, you're creating a list of events that need to be completed in order?

[quote name='Adahn's first post]Relationships [b]must come in steps, and certain criteria must be met[/b'] in order to be in a healthy relationship.[/quote]
That's what you said in your very first post here, so what's the story? Did you say what you meant or didn't you?

[QUOTE]Without trust, friendship is nothing. Without friendship, attraction is nothing, and so on. So long as those steps are behind you, there is a good chance you will have a healthy relationship, and if that relationship ends, it should end well for both parties.[/QUOTE]
On the contrary. I can be attracted to a complete stranger, but just because I'm not friends with that complete stranger doesn't mean the attraction is nothing, or unwarranted. You don't need to be friends with somebody to be attracted to them. That much should be obvious, I'd think. Likewise, you don't have to be attracted to somebody to be friends with them. To try to establish some type of correlative link between the two is asinine.

Friendship and trust, I'll agree to that one, but I do know of people who don't trust each other at all, but are still on somewhat friendly terms (divorced parents, for example), so, again, I don't think the correlation between friendship and trust is entirely accurate, either.


[quote]As for same-sex relationships, they just seem unnatural to me. Of course, I should have said I disapprove of male-male relationships beyond friendship. I don't want to get into details, but let's just say two women would be hard-pressed to engage in any act I would consider true sex.[/QUOTE]
If a same-sex relationship fits into all of your criteria, though, why is there a problem with it? By your evaluation criteria, the same-sex relationship is perfectly healthy.

Perhaps your problem with same-sex relationships is a sign that your evaluation criteria are flawed, because even you yourself are disagreeing with them when presented with various conditions.

Your evaluation criteria are certainly wrong, because like James has said, there are no "hard and fast" requirements for relationships.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen][/color][/font][/b][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]So, if I've got the general gist of the replies correct, people can have a good, healthy friendship that lacks trust, and the two people involved don't necessarily have to like each other. Also, one can be in a good, healthy romantic relationship lacking trust and mutal amiability. I said I felt these things were necessary, and asked for clarification. If I am missing essentials, feel free to point them out. You've already pointed out to me that none of the original criteria are necessary or applicable in creating or maintaining any sort of healthy relationship.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Out of personal experience, I must disagree. I feel that my only real friends are those I like (for one) and who I trust and am trusted by. I've also found that a romantic relationship lacking trust (for me, personally) will never bear fruit. On the other hand, a relationship I am in now was founded and continues to rest upon trust, amiability, and attraction. This relationship is infinitely better than any previous relationship that lacked any or all of the criteria I laid down.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Leaving my own personal morality out of it, I suppose same-sex relationships (male or female) would be healthy and fruitful.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'd like to hear your personal experiences with good, healthy relationships lacking any or all of the criteria I asserted. I would be curious to know what holds your relationships together in the absence of trust, favorable dispositions, and attraction.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']Leaving my own personal morality out of it, I suppose same-sex relationships (male or female) would be healthy and fruitful.[/quote]
That right there is why your criteria are faulty, and why this discussion is totally redundant and invalid.

Your system only has the possibility of working when personal opinion is forcibly removed from any and all types of considerations. Any personal bias or preconceived notions of anything regarding relationship "etiquette" or "morality" will automatically invalidate your "Steps of Criteria." You've said that due to your own personal viewpoint on relationships, same-sex relationships should never reach Step 3 of your list, because you believe it to be morally wrong, even though the relationship may meet the first two criteria you've set forth.

Your personal opinion therefore negates the guidelines of your system, and if one opinion would break those Steps, other opinions would, as well.

So, your system is only purely hypothetical, and has no application in reality, because the varying opinions of the world are impossible to remove, to establish one set of rules and guidelines concerning relationships.

There are people who are perfectly content having one-night stands; there are people who are perfectly content just living together; there are people who simply don't mind fooling around with their roommate.

I'd think that nondiscriminatory casual sex alone would expose the weaknesses in the fundamental design and construction of your system. Then we have divorced parents who remain friends because it's better for everyone. There's no attraction there anymore, and surely, the trust is not as strong, but they're still remaining friendly with each other.

My divorced Aunt Eileen and my former Uncle Ron are on those terms, and things run smoothly. He helps out when she needs it, he's at family parties, and there's a comfortable nature about everything, because they're making sure to be on friendly terms, even though they may not love each other at all, even though there were serious breaches of trust in the past.

And, how are we defining "healthy?" I mean, yes, there's this "common" definition of the word, but not everyone uses the same definition of "healthy," so in constructing this system of yours, and by using what is your own definition of the word, you're automatically disregarding other people who may be very satisfied with how their love life is going, even though "healthy" for them doesn't mean the same for you.

To put it simply, a "healthy" relationship is always in the eye of the beholder, and those involved in a relationship that you view morally reprehensible may be perfectly happy with it, and therefore, have a "healthy" relationship.

That's why your system is bunk, because it doesn't take into consideration the melting pot, as it were, of the modern relationship, the definition of which is constantly changing, unlike your system.

I trust I explained that well enough.

[Lady_Rin]

You are still trying to quantify something that can't be quantified. There is no measure of a relationship. It either is or isn't. It works for ever how long it does then disolves one way or another or it doesn't disolve at all. Relationships change, they have to, for without change you're going to get pretty dam [size=1] engineering project that holds water[/size] bored and tired of each other. Our relationship has changed since we first met yet we have weathered good and bad. There has never ever been any question of trust, did you take extra money? or amiability? And as much as I love my husband it would be very dull with out the occasional half hour over a dent fender, burnt meal or not enogh money for something especially when it's really needed. Attraction? Physical, intellectual or emotional? Many relationsips wouldn't even start if it were a physical atrraction; yet something has to start it.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]You should know what happens when radical redefinition of morals, or even words, takes place. It leads to civil unrest, and even civil strife in some situations. It is a sign of imbalance and uncertainty, a sign of weakness of foundation.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I blame politics for creating this gulf between us. It is their will to make the gap between us larger than it truly is. Each side tries to make their half look better, to attract as many people as possible to their selfish cause. We're all the same, yet we allow these men and women to breed hate amongst us. I have (distant) family members who refuse to associate much with each other because of separate political beliefs.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You embrace these changes, and think they are for the better. I ask you, is it worth it? Each year more people become pissed at the results of the election, and we're quickly reaching a boiling point.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We're approaching stasis, Siren. Is this regression from traditional morals really a good thing? Is it worth it?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']Is this regression from traditional morals really a good thing? Is it worth it?[/quote]Do you even know what those "traditional morals" are? I find your using that phrase completely asinine, because there never were any "traditional morals" in [i]the history of the world[/i], especially concerning love and marriage.

Listen to me here. The Leave it to Beaver family of the 50s was [i]never real[/i]. Actual families of the 50s were never, never like that. Homemaker mothers were totally discontent with their roles in the home. Fathers were discontent with their roles in the family. Many, many mothers were addicted to all sorts of speeds and downers (the Housewife's Helpers, I believe). There was still divorce. There were still broken homes.

We just don't hear about that because everyone thinks that Leave it to Beaver was the way it really was. It wasn't. Leave it to Beaver was pop culture's reaction to social condititions of the time, social conditions that showed the "Old Fashioned American Family" to be in utter chaos. Why do you think the Cleavers were so perfect?

Because it was escapism.

And these "traditional morals" you speak of...let's examine even the past Century.

In the early years of the 1920s, women were wearing upwards of 35 pounds (yes, 35 [i]pounds[/i]) of clothing, because it was deemed inappropriate for them to show any skin [i]whatsoever[/i].

Up until the Flapper movement, and then later, the Women's Lib of the 60s, women had no freedoms at all. "Traditional morals" my -ss.

Up until the late 60s, blacks had no rights at all. "Traditional morals" my -ss.

Throughout history, marriage was rarely about love; in fact, it was about [i]business[/i]. Marriages were used to solidify alliances, to end wars, to increase wealth. Love had nothing to do with marriage for a greater part of the world's history.

It was always about leverage, up until sometime around the French Enlightenment, where they started talking about marrying for love, and those French philosophers were getting [i]chewed out[/i] for of what they were saying. "Traditional morals" my -ss.

The Patriarchal Dominative family structure that people "had" during the 50s was some 150 years in the making, starting around the early 1800s. It took less than 25 years to deconstruct it. Think about that.

Let's not forget about Henry VIII and his six wives, two or three of whom he [i]beheaded[/i]. "Traditional morals" my -ss.

Come on, dude. There are no such things as "traditional morals," and anyone who tries to claim we need avoid any type of moralistic change by prohibiting particular groups to marry, or to have a family, etc, or simply to stick to them as to avoid social chaos has no idea in hell what really was going on in the world in the past few centuries.

There are no "traditional morals" in the sense of your Leave it to Beaver Ideal of a family, because Leave it to Beaver, and the Leave it to Beaver family never existed.

Honestly, [i]come on[/i]. You're being completely asinine and irrational here and you're ignoring some [i]600 years[/i] of history that totally refutes your claims and observations.

EDIT: Oh, by the way...there have been same-sex relationships for quite a long time in history.

[list]
[*]It can be traced as far back as Epic of Gilgamesh, with the brotherly love between Gilgamesh and Enkidu
[*]Shakespeare was known to have male "friends," as it was actually completely normal for males of that time to have close male companions
[*]Walt Whitman and Oscar Wilde were gay
[*]There are entire books of Lesbian poetry from Sappho and her sisterhood on her island of Lesbos off the coast if Italy
[*]Iliad and Odyssey praised the male-male relationship
[/list]

That's just running off the top of my head, about 20 minutes after I've woken up, and those are just the obvious ones. I could dig into my Lit Anthologies around here and produce probably 10, 15, or 20 more. But as it stands now...clearly, the same-sex relationship is not something that's just springing up overnight. Come on.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=darkolivegreen][size=2]Unlike you, I was speaking in the original context of the thread. I've already yielded to any and all arguments concerning same-sex relationships. In fact, the first time I mentioned it, I was sure to add [i]in my opinion.[/i][/size][/color][/font][/b]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm much more concerned with relationships involving marriage and sex without love, among other things. Same-sex marriage is just a front for the larger problem. The complete and utter degradation of the significance of interpersonal relationships. This problem hides behind same-sex marriage, but it is infinitely more important. It concerns how we treat each other. Don't tell me you don't see it everywhere. Not just in the media, but in people you see everyday.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]We are moving further and further away from each other in every area. We're closing our hearts and our minds to each other, and slowly eliminating everything good that can happen to two people. You can only control what is right to you, and every day people are hurt by people they open themselves to, because they are still shut off.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f][/color][/font][/i][/b]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][color=#556b2f][/color][/font][/i][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']Unlike you, I was speaking in the original context of the thread.[/quote]As am I, and you would have seen this had you actually read my previous post. All throughout it, I was totally debunking this myth of "traditional morals," and my [i]entire post[/i] was focused on [i]love and marriage[/i]. Read that again. LOVE AND MARRIAGE. I've been staying on-topic the entire time.

[QUOTE]I'm much more concerned with relationships involving marriage and sex without love, among other things. Same-sex marriage is just a front for the larger problem. The complete and utter degradation of the significance of interpersonal relationships. This problem hides behind same-sex marriage, but it is infinitely more important. It concerns how we treat each other.[/QUOTE]Now who is drifting away from the main topic at hand? At first, you were trying to talk about relationships themselves. Now, you're talking about the "complete and utter degradation of the significance of interpersonal relationships." In your previous post, you were trying to talk about [i]politics[/i]. You're sliding more and more away from the original focus of the thread than I am, Adahn--or is it attempting to dodge and/or deflect the issue?

And you're treating this entire "interpersonal relationship" situation like it's some sudden degeneration of society? Pardon my French, but that's bullsh-t. All throughout history there has been some type of degradation of relationship values.

Did you pay attention to when I talked about Henry VIII, by any chance? A King who was [i]beheading his wives[/i] when they failed to give him a son?

What about homemaker wives in the 50s who were addicted to [i]speed[/i]?

What about broken homes [i]today[/i]?

Are you about to tell me that same-sex marriage is even remotely related to those issues?

I agree it concerns how we treat eachother, and I'll add to it with the following:

Banning same-sex marriage is treating people far worse than fighting for personal freedoms, Adahn. Banning same-sex marriage is far, far worse, because you're treating people as inferiors. Wrap your mind around that one.

You're trying to say that same-sex marriage is only a surface problem, but it isn't a problem at all. I don't know what you're basing your opinion on, but heterosexual relationships aren't perfect (far from it), and sometimes, homosexual relationships are far more loving, caring, compassionate, and secure than heterosexual ones. Homosexual marriage is in no way a degradation of marriage, [i]especially[/i] given what we know about marriage throughout history.

Come on.

[QUOTE]Don't tell me you don't see it everywhere. Not just in the media, but in people you see everyday.[/QUOTE]When I see people of every race and creed, sexual orientation and ethnicity being involved in successful heterosexual and/or homosexual relationships, I still fail to see how homosexual relationships are some huge crime against the supposed "traditional moralities" of society.

People treat people like sh-t for more reasons than just homosexuality, Adahn. People treat others like sh-t when others are being complete morons, egostitical pricks, ignorant little bastards, or just damn self-centered. Because of this, does it make any sense at all to villify homosexuality, to add yet another kindling on that fire of intolerance? Come on.


[quote]We are moving further and further away from each other in every area. We're closing our hearts and our minds to each other, and slowly eliminating everything good that can happen to two people. You can only control what is right to you, and every day people are hurt by people they open themselves to, because they are still shut off.[/QUOTE]I can play with bad and obvious allegory, too. Just see my above paragraph.

And why do you think people are shutting people down? Because some people just don't know how in the hell things work in society and are latching onto outdated, ancient, vagaries of intangible, falsely positive realities spun through an escapist filtered window of an undesirable reality.

EDIT: I'll put it really simply:

You're simple-minded and totally wrong.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]You never understand anything, do you? You agree with me completely, and yet I'm simple-minded and totally wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I guess I'll have to put it simply, lest you take it, and twist it around so it opposes your logic and views.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Relationships between people should be better than this. You keep going off on homosexual relationships, and here I am [i]agreeing with you.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][i][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/i][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]People are hiding behind same-sex marriage, calling it immoral, when their own problems are far greater. This is what I meant when I called it a "front".[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]My original post contained suggestions of what I thought could represent virtues found in a good relationship. Go ahead and take good and twist it if you want, but I'll define it for you right here and now, anyway.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Everyone has an inherent sense of right or wrong. You know when you're doing something right, because it [i]feels[/i] right. You know when you're doing something wrong because it [i]feels [/i]wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Argue with me here, and I guess I am very unique in my ability to distinguish between right and wrong.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Most relationships today are bad. Personally, they disgust me. I am [u]blessed[/u] with a loving family and a good girlfriend, and good friends. But, in their lives, and the lives of everyone around me, I see so much that is just [i]wrong.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I ask you, every one of you, what is it that makes a relationship right? What can we do to solve these problems? How would people treat each other and feel about each other in a perfect world?[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']But, in their lives, and the lives of everyone around me, I see so much that is just wrong.[/quote]The entirety of your post is meaningless tripe because of this one sentence, so I've taken the liberty of deleting all of that other crap.

What is "wrong?" Answer me that, straight-up, with none of your opinion factoring in. I don't think you can.

You've been so adamant about adhering to "traditional morals" in this thread (don't deny that, Adahn, because I [i]will[/i] call you on it if need be) but what you fail to realize is, that there are no, and have never been, any traditional morals. The archetypal "perfect" family life of Leave it to Beaver that you seem to be looking to for some sort of familial morality is a lie.

[quote]Everyone has an inherent sense of right or wrong. You know when you're doing something right, because it feels right. You know when you're doing something wrong because it feels wrong.[/quote]And like I've been saying all along here, [i]there is no set right and wrong[/i], and [i]your[/i] values of right and wrong [i]do not apply[/i] to all those around you.

Those relationships you consider to be so wrong and...offensive...they're just "wrong" to you, but that does not mean they are wrong, because the people in that relationship could be very, very satisfied in a "nonconventional" relationship.

That's the flaw in your argument, and that's what you've been trying to say all along, that there are right and wrong types of relationships, and that's what I've been debunking the entire time, because there never has been a traditional morality.

Read this:

There has never been a traditional morality.

[quote]Argue with me here, and I guess I am very unique in my ability to distinguish between right and wrong.[/quote]Don't make me laugh. Your "ability" to "distinguish" between right and wrong is grounded in Historical and Societal Ignorance. You only "agree" with me now because you've changed your entire stance on things mid-thread. Check out the following.

You've said the following before:

[quote]You should know what happens when [b]radical redefinition of morals[/b], or even words, takes place. It [b]leads to civil unrest, and even civil strife in some situations[/b]. It [b]is a sign of imbalance and uncertainty, a sign of weakness of foundation[/b].[/quote]A radical redefinition of morals is what brought about Women's Lib, Civil Rights, and Desegregation. Are you saying that those should never have happened, simply because they caused a bit of a societal hiccup at the time?

[QUOTE][b]You embrace these changes, and think they are for the better. I ask you, is it worth it?[/b] Each year more people become pissed at the results of the election, and we're quickly reaching a boiling point.[/QUOTE]I certainly think Societal Progressiveness ([i]improving the quality of society[/i]) is a good idea, and certainly for the better, yes. Why wouldn't it be? A bit of political turmoil? A divided society? What was happening back in the 60s? What was happening back in the 30s? What was happening back in the 1890s? 1600s? 1400s?

[quote]We're approaching stasis, Siren. [b]Is this regression from traditional morals really a good thing?[/b] Is it worth it?[/QUOTE]And I've been repeating this ad nauseum over and over again, yet you seem to fail to realize it. Leave It To Beaver was fake. The wholesome American Family was a pop culture fabrication. Marriage was not about love when it was first introduced, and it [i]never[/i] had any [i]meaningful[/i] implications. It was about business.

[QUOTE]I ask you, every one of you, what is it that makes a relationship right? What can we do to solve these problems? How would people treat each other and feel about each other in a perfect world?[/QUOTE]It's funny how you're testing us here, when your take on things is so skewed.

You know what makes a good (there is no right and wrong here) relationship? When both people in that relationship are satisfied and fulfilled in it. That's what makes it a good relationship. The opinions of other people (like yourself) don't matter at all. The judgments of other people (like yourself) don't matter at all.

All that matters is if the people in that relationship are happy.

Adahn, you've got nowhere to go here. Just admit defeat yet again, lol. Don't drag this one out to 13 pages like before, because nobody is going to think any better of you for it. You're not seen as some brilliant thinker around here, that much should be clear by the replies here, and in your other threads. You're trying so desperately hard to impress people, or to sound deep, thought-provoking, or philosophical, but you're just coming off as a simple fraud. Just forget about it, dude, and walk away.

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I think I just realized something. You don't know how much my thoughts, opinions, ideas, and feelings are open to change, do you? I have almost no opinion on anything, and really just argue for ***** and giggles. Here, though, I'm trying to find out what makes a relationship good. So, I'll use the only piece of information you gave me that helps me in any way.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[size=1][color=black][QUOTE=Siren][/color][/size]
All that matters is if the people in that relationship are happy.
[/QUOTE][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I'm assuming that both people in the relationship must be happy. If so, what do you think it is that allows two people to be happy together? If you want, you may draw from your own personal experiences or feelings.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, when I was talking about right and wrong, I was saying that I know when [i]I'm[/i] doing something right or wrong, and nothing else. Do you not have the ability to judge your own actions as right or wrong? If you want an example of what seems wrong to me about other people, I will give you one. [/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]People who are friendly towards each other in person, even very close friends, insult each other behind their backs.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]That bothers me more than anything.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Oh, and if I don't repeat an argument or challenge your opinion, it means I agree with you.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[color=#503f86][SIZE=1][b]Please don't swear, Adahn. these are family-orientated forums. -Solo[/color][/SIZE][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']I think I just realized something. You don't know how much my thoughts, opinions, ideas, and feelings are open to change, do you? I have almost no opinion on anything, and really just argue for shits and giggles.[/quote]Bull, lol. If you had no real opinion on anything, you wouldn't have escalated that Christianity thread to the point that you did. If you didn't have a real opinion on anything, you wouldn't be starting all of these threads now, only a few days after that Christianity thread. If you didn't have any real opinions about anything, you wouldn't be bitter, lol.

Are you saying you're just a mindless drone with no substantial thoughts in that pretty little head of yours?

[QUOTE]I'm assuming that both people in the relationship must be happy.[/quote]You were never assuming that, lol. Any type of relationship that you didn't agree with was automatically wrong, and you never even gave consideration to the fact that maybe, just maybe, those people were happy. Don't pull that crap.

[quote]If so, what do you think it is that allows two people to be happy together? If you want, you may draw from your own personal experiences or feelings.[/QUOTE]If I want? Oh, thank you for giving me permission.

Anyway, like I and others have said this entire time, there is no way to quantify what exactly makes a relationship work, because there are no precise rules and guidelines, settings, etc, because it's different for everybody.

In my previous relationships, we had absolutely nothing in common, we were diametrically opposed politically, and I didn't really even care about what was going on in the Middle East ("It's just land," I would say), and she was Jewish. Yet we had fun for a few months, enjoyed each other's company, but then the differences just became too apparent. We were just looking for different things in life, and were at different points in our life. Because we were different, though, that didn't mean our relationship was wrong; it was just not working.

My current relationship, we're doing quite well, because our goals in life are very similar (Teaching), and our personalities click for the most part, as we have a rough patch here and there, like in every relationship. We're comfortable around each other, we can goof off, and we both spin a bit of innuendo here and there. We're cuddly, and we're smitten with each other.

What makes a relationship work for me...is just someone I can be comfortable around, and there's no set criteria for that. This goes back to what James said earlier, actually. There isn't a minute where I go, "Okay, I'm comfortable with this person, but in five minutes, I'm going to flip out on them." There are no clear-cut definitions of what makes a relationship work (and there are certainly no accurate measures of "right" and "wrong"), and that's what many people here have been saying the entire time.

If there were concrete relationship criteria, my ex and I would have never gotten together, and the fact that we did get together proves there is no concrete relationship criteria.

[QUOTE]Oh, when I was talking about right and wrong, I was saying that I know when I'm doing something right or wrong, and nothing else. Do you not have the ability to judge your own actions as right or wrong? If you want an example of what seems wrong to me about other people, I will give you one.[/QUOTE]Oh...so this "right" and "wrong" thing is only applying to yourself now? Not any outside people or relationships?

[QUOTE]People who are friendly towards each other in person, even very close friends, insult each other behind their backs.[/QUOTE]I guess when you talk about right and wrong, you actually are still talking about other people.

So, it's wrong to ask Jordan what in the hell your problem is? It's wrong to ask him why you are the way you are, because I sure as hell wasn't going to get a straight answer out of you?

[QUOTE]That bothers me more than anything.[/QUOTE]I don't see why it would. After all, you're not exactly the clearest person around, and Jordan's much more succinct. It was simply a matter of effectiveness.

[quote]Oh, and if I don't repeat an argument or challenge your opinion, it means I agree with you.[/QUOTE]So, then, you agree with me (and Ben, and Boba Fett, for that matter) that Revelation hasn't happened yet? You agree that there's more cohesion in the Bible than you were preaching for 13 pages?

[Adahn]

[quote name='Siren']Bull, lol. If you had no real opinion on anything, you wouldn't have escalated that Christianity thread to the point that you did. If you didn't have a real opinion on anything, you wouldn't be starting all of these threads now, only a few days after that Christianity thread. If you didn't have any real opinions about anything, you wouldn't be bitter, lol.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]If I had my own stalwart opinions, I wouldn't have started any threads. The only person who's going to change their opinion because any of this is me. I'm bitter because you're mean.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Are you saying you're just a mindless drone with no substantial thoughts in that pretty little head of yours?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]*likes being called pretty* Hmm, what do mindless drones do? They follow instructions and do what they're told. Is that what I seem to be doing to you? I'm constantly changing, so I think I'd make a terrible mindless drone.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
You were never assuming that, lol. Any type of relationship that you didn't agree with was automatically wrong, and you never even gave consideration to the fact that maybe, just maybe, those people were happy. Don't pull that crap.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Tell me what relationships I don't agree with. For every person who's happy just to casually have sex, there's another person who thinks it means something. When those two people come together, it is not a good thing.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
If I want? Oh, thank you for giving me permission.

Anyway, like I and others have said this entire time, there is no way to quantify what exactly makes a relationship work, because there are no precise rules and guidelines, settings, etc, because it's different for everybody.

If there were concrete relationship criteria, my ex and I would have never gotten together, and the fact that we did get together proves there is no concrete relationship criteria.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]There's always a better way to ask a question. Are there any criteria that make a relationship wrong? I'll start you off with an easy one; a threatening, abusive husband/boyfriend.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
Oh...so this "right" and "wrong" thing is only applying to yourself now? Not any outside people or relationships?

I guess when you talk about right and wrong, you actually are still talking about other people.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]When one person hurts another person, it's wrong. When people insult their friends behind their backs, it hurts me.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
So, it's wrong to ask Jordan what in the hell your problem is? It's wrong to ask him why you are the way you are, because I sure as hell wasn't going to get a straight answer out of you?

I don't see why it would. After all, you're not exactly the clearest person around, and Jordan's much more succinct. It was simply a matter of effectiveness.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]You seem like an honest person to me. I trust that if you had anything to say about me, you'd say it to my face. That, and you've already said alot to my face. I hate having to say face, when I've never really met you, but you know what I mean.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[QUOTE=Siren]
So, then, you agree with me (and Ben, and Boba Fett, for that matter) that Revelation hasn't happened yet? You agree that there's more cohesion in the Bible than you were preaching for 13 pages?[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]I stopped arguing because I said no good could come if it. It was made clear to me that you wanted me to stop posting, so I aquiesced. We are in mutual disagreement, and that nullifies the statement in my last post.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']If I had my own stalwart opinions, I wouldn't have started any threads. The only person who's going to change their opinion because any of this is me. I'm bitter because you're mean.[/quote]
It seems that the only reason one would start threads is if they have something to say, that is to say, [i]state an opinion[/i]. Why else would you start threads, other than to provide vapid and meaningless discussion that's a waste of people's time? And, if you didn't have an opinion about anything, why have you said what you've said? That is to say, if you had absolutely nothing to contribute opinion-wise, why have you used, "[i]in my opinion[/i]."

You do have your own stubborn opinions. Don't try to deny that one. We've seen it too much in the past week, Adahn.

I'm not mean, either. I just don't sugarcoat things. So, your reason for being bitter is weak at best.

[QUOTE]*likes being called pretty* Hmm, what do mindless drones do? They follow instructions and do what they're told. Is that what I seem to be doing to you? I'm constantly changing, so I think I'd make a terrible mindless drone.[/QUOTE]
Mindless drone means someone who doesn't have any substantial thought in their head (does without thinking). Mindless drones offer little to no beneficial conversation or discussion, and given how useless your topics and posts are, and how lacking of substance they are, I'd say the label of "mindless drone" fits you very well, no offense.

[QUOTE]Tell me what relationships I don't agree with. For every person who's happy just to casually have sex, there's another person who thinks it means something. When those two people come together, it is not a good thing.[/QUOTE]
Casual sex relationships; one night stands; same-sex relationships; really, anything that doesn't fit into the archetypal Leave it to Beaver family. There's absolutely nothing in your posts to suggest that you approve of anything other than the Cleavers.

[QUOTE]There's always a better way to ask a question. Are there any criteria that make a relationship wrong? I'll start you off with an easy one; a threatening, abusive husband/boyfriend.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't disagree for a second that something should be done about abusive relationships, because, let's face it. Nobody deserves to be beaten. Physical abuse is wrong.

Having said that, however, I don't see how an [i]abusive[/i] relationship's "rightness" or "wrongness" has any bearing on a [i]healthy[/i] relationship's "rightness" or "wrongness," because they're pretty much unrelated.

Nobody in their right mind would argue that an abusive relationship shouldn't be corrected, and you'll see that my entire focus previously has always been centered on healthy relationships, relationships in which people are happy, not getting beaten.

So, I don't really think bringing up abusive relationships will help bolster your point about relationships being right/wrong, because we've always been talking about healthy relationships.

[QUOTE]When one person hurts another person, it's wrong. When people insult their friends behind their backs, it hurts me.

You seem like an honest person to me. I trust that if you had anything to say about me, you'd say it to my face. That, and you've already said alot to my face. I hate having to say face, when I've never really met you, but you know what I mean.[/quote]
I'm brutally honest, and I'm totally up-front with you here, aren't I? What difference does it make if I'm asking Jordan about you? You know just from my posts here what I think of you, so, I'm actually not being deceitful at all. And, I'm much harsher here than I was in the conversation with Jordan.

I tell things straight-up. That's what I do. I don't sugarcoat things, and I don't talk behind someone's back without them knowing [i]precisely[/i] how I feel about them. That's what happened here, so you have no grounds on which to indict me in any wrongdoing, Adahn. I don't hide what I think, and I don't mince words.

[quote]I stopped arguing because I said no good could come if it. It was made clear to me that you wanted me to stop posting, so I aquiesced. We are in mutual disagreement, and that nullifies the statement in my last post.[/QUOTE]
So, you're just one huge contradiction then.

[Afire]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved. I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night. I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him. I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer. The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me. I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love. What is thy beloved more than another beloved, O thou fairest among women? what is thy beloved more than another beloved, that thou dost so charge us? My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand. His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven. His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set. His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh. His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires. His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars. His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]