Defining relationships

[rainkius]

Siren - I applaud your posts. I thought you had a lot of excellent points, and although the tone was a little harsh, who cares? You didn't say anything untrue.

Adahn, your post where you said the things like "is this upheaval of morals necessary" etc deserved to be torn to shreds like siren did. You can't say something like that and then claim you don't REALLY have an opinion on it, despite how much passion you had in saying some of the most narrowminded things i've ever come across. I hope you are open to change, because those things make me sad.

The gay marriage issue is a horrible sign of intolerance and regression in this country. After the election, Prop. 2 (which was poorly written, but meant to ban gay marriage and make it so employers don't have to give ANY unmarried couples benefits, straight included) was passed in my state. I actually cried, i was so upset. (i dont cry about things often.) Such regression makes me, for lack of a better word (and i apologize for how melodramatic it sounds), heartsick.

And migrating back toward the original issue... Attraction can't be nailed down to something specific. Before, i was always attracted to guys who were close to 6 ft, a little on the hefty side, sorta jockish (but not the typical jock, i suppose - my last 2 bfs both played football but they weren't complete ********, that's what i mean. Sorry to rely on a stereotype there but.. yeah.). I never liked really skinny guys, or guys that were my height. Now my tastes are going all over the place. The guy i like currently is like 6'1" and has almost a dangerously low body fat % lol. Sometimes there's chemistry and sometimes there isn't. Sometimes i meet ppl i think i SHOULD like but i don't. I can't figure it out. I don't think anyone really can.

[Lady_Rin]

I've been reading this thread as well.

Gay marriage is a fraud. What the gay community wants are the same rights as married couples. To that I agree. But for publicity purposes they have chosen to get married since that's what many commpanies define as "being eligble for benefits" which is crass and unfeeling. Being gay is not a social disorder it is genetic.

"Traditional morals" were thrust upons us by the church as far back as the first popes. (I'm Church of England). Traditional morals while they have included sex most often included the 10 commandments as well. Sexual morals didn't really appear until the 13th century and only gaind a foohols at the start of the rainsseance which was also the start of many modern beliefs.

The definition of" Traditional Morals" if you must have one; could be said to be what your direct ancestors and their communities held as balanced an fair, weather it was fair or not by todays standards or even then. i.e. Jesuits vs Franciscans. Event then it was the spanish Inquistions that brought these values to the forefront.

My family is and old one. We can trace our history back 280 years. They hold those Traditional Morals of Aristocratic England in high regard and because I stepped outside those "Traditional Morals" I am ostracized and vilified by my entire famil, my village, even the people I grew up with. Would you like to know what I did that was so terrible? Was it because I married a man who was Jewish? That would have been acceptable because Jews were money lenders and arrange marriages of the time found that acceptable. Or taking him to my flat the night we met? In Victorian England that would have; soiled a girls reputation. "Untainted amoral sex, that poor young girl, seduced by a barbarian". In the Rainsseance I would be expected to marry an officer from a noble family in my fathers regiment. I was expected to full do that on my graduation from finishing school. They had even picked out a groom. Yes, that evens happens today in a civilized country like England. Instead I married an American Air Force officer, a vulgar American, a pilot, son of a pilot and architect. [b]A [/b], just like the faerie tales I escaped to in school. Americans are outside the Traditional Moral values of my family since the Coloniel Wars, what you call the American Revolution and wasn't only revolution going on at that time., (*giggles* I was born on July 4th). So there, Traditional Morals and family values.

The traditional morals and values I try to teach my family are honesty andfairness and love, not to intentionally harm anyone, that means no bigotry, and to protect family, even the not so good ones. We used to tell the children; love each other, be polite and zero BS. That's all. It seems to have worked.

Love, you are still trying to quantify the unquantifiable. Your wasting your time. I know peopll deeply in love with no sex marriages, others who have separate bedrooms or lives frm each other and others who can't keep there hands off each other like right now *go away* even after 20 years of marriage. I've read the books, studied other cultures and their is no rhyme or reason why relationships work.

t's like I said before; either they do or they don't because that's where all of this started with; trust,"where were you until 2 am?", Amiablilty, I love you, I love you, I love you or appearance and again I say look around you.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Lady_Rin']The traditional morals and values I try to teach my family are honesty andfairness and love, not to intentionally harm anyone, that means no bigotry, and to protect family, even the not so good ones. We used to tell the children; love each other, be polite and zero BS. That's all. It seems to have worked.[/quote]
And I think this is a very important point to consider. I think your definition of "traditional morals" is the best one any society can have, because it's all about acceptance and love, not bigotry or social restriction.

And really, I think that's the core of the issue right there. Many, many relationships that may be "nonconventional" still have that closeness and mutual love and respect you're talking about. I'm glad you brought all of that up, because really, that's what traditional morals are and should be: acceptance and love.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=rainkius]Adahn, your post where you said the things like "is this upheaval of morals necessary" etc deserved to be torn to shreds like siren did. You can't say something like that and then claim you don't REALLY have an opinion on it, despite how much passion you had in saying some of the most narrowminded things i've ever come across. I hope you are open to change, because those things make me sad.
[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]You don't believe me? I'm not a liar, rainkius. I voted no on proposal 2, and was pissed when it passed in my state. I have an aunt in a same-sex relationship, and I look fondly on the both of them. I'm very disappointed that I won't be able to see them get married. I would have appreciated that. It sucks even more, because our state went to Kerry, and it still passed.[/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f][/color][/size][/font][/b]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]As for everything else, I think love is an odd thing. I think it exists in all of us, and certain things bring it out. It's easier to love people you like and trust, but you don't need those things for love. Everyone has the potential to love everyone else.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn]You don't believe me? I'm not a liar, rainkius. I voted no on proposal 2, and was pissed when it passed in my state. [b]I have an aunt in a same-sex relationship, and I look fondly on the both of them. I'm very disappointed that I won't be able to see them get married.[/b'] I would have appreciated that. It sucks even more, because our state went to Kerry, and it still passed.[/quote]
Okay, so, if you're actually [i]Pro[/i]-Same-sex marriage, then how do you explain all the talk in the beginning of this thread, when you were so adamant about how male-male relationships should not even progress into romance, and how wrong it was? [i]Come on[/i].


[quote]As for everything else, I think love is an odd thing. I think it exists in all of us, and certain things bring it out. It's easier to love people you like and trust, but you don't need those things for love. Everyone has the potential to love everyone else.[/QUOTE]
That's quite a radical departure from what you were saying when you started this thread.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Siren]Okay, so, if you're actually [i]Pro[/i]-Same-sex marriage, then how do you explain all the talk in the beginning of this thread, when you were so adamant about how male-male relationships should not even progress into romance, and how wrong it was? [i]Come on[/i].

That's quite a radical departure from what you were saying when you started this thread.[/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]Again, let me point out that my feelings, opinions, and ideas are open to change. I often argue for the fun of it, especially against where my own feelings lie. I can't stand up to the good sense presented here, so I gave up my little fight.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']Again, let me point out that my feelings, opinions, and ideas are open to change. I often argue for the fun of it, especially against where my own feelings lie. I can't stand up to the good sense presented here, so I gave up my little fight.[/quote]Then you're a walking contradiction, and a mindless meatpuppet drone who does what he's told.

[Adahn]

[quote name='Siren']Then you're a walking contradiction, and a mindless meatpuppet drone who does what he's told.[/quote]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I agree completely, except for the mindless meatpuppet drone who does what he's told part. You can't change the world, but you can change yourself. If you can't change yourself, then you can't change anything.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Panda]

Please stay on topic and not turn this thread into a flame war. I don't want to see anyone getting banned over this. Please stay on topic and not resort to name calling and fighting.

I will close this thread if it continues.

-Panda

[Adahn]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I think the general consensus is that love is what makes a relationship good. Nobody here is going to bash love, are they?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Good. A new question, then. What do you all think helps bring love into a relationship? My opinion still stands (Trust, friendship, attraction) I'm sure there are more, and I'd like to hear them. If you think one or more of these things I've said here don't help bring love into a relationship, I'd be happy to listen to an argument.[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Lady_Rin]

Today I am using a[COLOR=deeppink] pink[/COLOR] link [size=1]disgusting[/size]

[quote="Siren"]
And I think this is a very important point to consider. I think your definition of "traditional morals" is the best one any society can have, because it's all about acceptance and love, not bigotry or social restriction. [/quote]

Thank you *curtseys* [URL=http://home.earthlink.net/~lady_rin/sigh2.html][COLOR=deeppink][/COLOR][/URL] I was beggining to wonder if anyone was reading or thinking about my posts.

Adahn, once again you return to the same rehortic as at the beginning. Nothing has changed since page one. You cannot quantify a relationship. *strikeout* No! That hasn't worked. [URL=http://home.earthlink.net/~lady_rin/sigh1.html][COLOR=deeppink] [size=1]it's different[/size][/COLOR][/URL] Try this; Adahn, what makes you think you can quantify a relationship? How can you make a specification for a life companion?

Siren mentions unconventional relationships. I'm sure that for the most part that most of you think of means gay relationships. What of other kinds.

[color=dodgerblue]Panda you may want to edit this.[/color]

My best friend Wendy of 14 years is a single divorced mother of 2. Married three times she has sworn off anymore men. She still needs affection of a kind her children can't give her. Not sex, get your minds out of the gutter lol. She has no tendancies towards being a lesbian or bi. She needed a relationship to fullfill her emotional needs and she found one with a unique solution even if it did take both Ranger and I totally by surprise.

[color=dodgerblue]Panda, I'm trying very hard to keep this within your rating but since we have been talking about gay relationships. *Crosses fingers and goes on* [/color]

After about four years Wendy came over and was helping me around the house one day.

[color=dodgerblue]*Pandaaaa help - stomping feet in frustration* [/color]

Changing sheets she came around the bed and took me in her arms the way Ranger does when he comes home and gave me a long kiss. There was nothing sexual about it. It was a kiss of love, of wanting to belong to someone, something. I couldn't refuse her as I knew she needed to belong somewhere. My heart said that place was here. The way Ranger found out I thought my marriage was over and I didn't expect him to welcome Wendy into our home. He surprised me and truly her family became a part of ours. She doesn't live here yet is very close by, she doesn't depend on us financially, if she needs money, she just has to ask and never has to worry about paying it back; is she my sister? Alice and Jake have become my children and siblings to my three. Over time our relationship changed dramatically for all three of us and it did become a manage-a-trois, ( I feel gutter thinking), but not for that reason or that often.

Wendy now has security. She and her children feel safe and can they walk in here anytime day or night even if we are asleep or not here and have done so. This is her home of course she can walk in. If she's in troubl;e she calls us, there is a bedroom for Alice and Jake, and one for Wendy. Although there are times, as after the [URL=http://www.tmpforums.com/index.php?showtopic=11944][COLOR=deeppink]veterans day parade yesteday[/color][/URL] when Ranger needed us and the three of us slept together. Again I feel gutter thinking. lol

This is some of what Siren has learned from [i]our[/i] set of Traditional Moral values. True compassion for someone in need weather it's Ranger or Wendy. I learned this as a result of the Traditional Morals values and hate that infects my family. I have learned to think outside the box, as Ranger puts it, something I learned from him and it has allowed me to view the world in a totally different light for a long time now.

[URL=http://home.earthlink.net/~lady_rin/sigh.html][COLOR=deeppink] [size=1]different again[/size][/COLOR][/URL]

Now Adahn, how do you quantify a relationship like that. It either works or not. And if you repeat yourself once more I'm going to take you out to Pinto Basin and leave you there. *stomps foot*


[size=1][color=dodgerblue]Announcer:[/color]Lady Rins virtual threat is is quite real. Matt Reilly tried to cross Pinto Basin on foot and died for his efforts on July 4th, 1926. Lady Rins birthday is on July 4th.[/size]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Adahn][b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=darkolivegreen]I think the general consensus is that love is what makes a relationship good. Nobody here is going to bash love, are they?[/color][/size][/font][/b]

[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Good. A new question, then. What do you all think helps bring love into a relationship? My opinion still stands (Trust, friendship, attraction) I'm sure there are more, and I'd like to hear them. If you think one or more of these things I've said here don't help bring love into a relationship, I'd be happy to listen to an argument.[/color][/size][/font][/b][/QUOTE]
[b][font=Trebuchet MS][size=2][color=#556b2f]Please don't hurt me! I thought I was being good! All I did was ask what [i]helps[/i] someone find love in a relationship! I think that Trust, friendship, and attraction help. That was what I meant by my opinion! :sweat: [/color][/size][/font][/b]

[MissWem]

[QUOTE=Siren]Okay, so, if you're actually [i]Pro[/i]-Same-sex marriage, then how do you explain all the talk in the beginning of this thread, when you were so adamant about how male-male relationships should not even progress into romance, and how wrong it was? [i]Come on[/i].



That's quite a radical departure from what you were saying when you started this thread. [/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed] Due to some horrible feeling I'm going to give you the answer that because Adahn already stated the reason in some previous post. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Adahn] Of course, I should have said I disapprove of male-male relationships beyond friendship. I don't want to get into details, but let's just say two women would be hard-pressed to engage in any act I would consider true sex.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]Which isn't to say I agree with the statement, it's just merely a fact. I personally don't mind same-sex marriage but that's a different argument altogether.

(oh man, I'm so slow at replying.. there's been a bajillion replies by the time I post this)

So as this is meant to be a civilised discussion I shall offer my opinion on Adahn's last/first question..

True, in order for people to reach a point where they're in love.. trust, attraction and friendship is needed but what I think tends to make the biggest difference is the initial meeting/impression the two people get of each other. Correct me if I'm wrong, even if you meet someone and they may be friendly and nice but do you ever get that feeling that you and them just couldn't be friends to start with...??

I've seen it happen, two of my friends meet, they seem to be just fine with each other, friendly so on and so forth. Then later when I talk to them individually they just tell me for some unbeknowst reason they don't like the other person.

Neither had wronged eachother, they simply didn't like each other.

It had little to do with amiability.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who believe they're in love even though they're lacking trust, friendship and even safety. Who? Domestic abuse.

Like everything that is 'human' there are always horrible mutant exceptions to ideals and rules.[/COLOR]