DBZgirl88 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 (edited) (Edited for privacy). Edited May 20, 2014 by DBZgirl88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endymion Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 [COLOR=Navy][SIZE=1]Israel and Palestine is a serious topic. Though I do find that some people in the middle eastern region say that 'expansionist Israel' has 'taken over' the Middle East. If someone can explain that idea to me, I'd appreciate it. I can't see how the statement has bearing considering Arab/Muslim nations surrounding Israel occupy 640 times the landmass as Israel does. I find it stupid as well that Palestinians or others from the regions think that blowing themselves up in Israel and killing dozens of women and children is an example of martyrdom. Perhaps if these frivilous attacks did not occur, Israel wouldn't take military action upon its neighbors. The more that I think about it and research, I begin to feel for the Israelis. In 1967, neighboring Arab/Muslim nations mobilized their armies along the seemingly indefensible border that the Jews had set up when they fought for their independence some 20 years prior to. Pre-emptively the Israelis crippled Egypt's air force. Had the Israelis not won this defensive war, I'm fairly certain the invaders would've obliterated the people in some Holocaust-like fashion. Today, anti-Israeli feelings run high throughout the area. I wish that Arab/Muslim nations would actually make an effort to perpetuate peace, instead of sending their men, women and children into Israel to kill innocent people, or turning a blind eye to such actions. It's not holy, if that's how they see it. More like a barbaric act...I say let the Israelis keep it. They've shed enough blood defending their land, and not only that, it's theirs...[/SIZE][/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fett Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 [IMG]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21622[/IMG] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"'] There are either three choices with how to deal with Israel: Let the Jews keep it, give it back to the Palestinians and rename it Palestine again, or somehow, compromise.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]I think that the [I]Israelis[/I] should keep all of their present territory, and do what they wish regarding both the Gaza strip and the west bank territories. Although neither side is completely blameless, I see a distinct difference between the actions of the Palestinians and those of Israelis. The Israeli government doesn?t support homicide bombings that explicitly target civilians. In addition, the Israelis are eager to settle and are in some ways more interested in a Palestinian state than Palestinians. Arafat was not only a corrupt terrorist, but refused to an agreement negotiated under Clinton that offered 98% of all territory ?belonging? to the Palestinians.[/color] [QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"]Let me tell you that I am palestinian and I think Palestine is my rightful home and that the Jews have no claim over this land. [/COLOR][/QUOTE] [color=green]Really? On Friday May 14, 1948, when the British mandate to over Palestine expired, the state of Israel was established and later officially recognized by the United Nations. This alone gives [I]Israelis[/I] perfectly legitimate claim over this land.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"'] Make sure to look for a variety of "reputable" resources when making your post. Aljazeera should not be ignored. While many people think it is biased, CNN probably is too.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]You?re joking right? Al Jazeera is the most biased news source in the world, and a terribly obvious propaganda wing of Islamic extremists. It?s no coincidence that all these terrorist tapes and videos we hear about are delivered there first. Take a look at their English version site; tell me if you can find a single report that portrays America or Israel in a positive light. [URL=http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=5875]Do you seriously believe this?[/URL] Al Jazeera is not to be trusted, period. If you can?t see that, you?re in serious trouble.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Lady Rin put this online for the hope of promises, peace and friendship. It may not be finished or right but I feel it makes my point. [Removed for Privacy] we watch anime; the same shows in fact. We get up, piss, eat, sleep and everything else the only difference is you are a palestinian and I'm a jew. OK, so what? What should be done about this "war"? The leaders of both sides, political and religious, should be taken into the desert and left there without water. that inlcudes the rest of the warmongers. An examination. In the blue corner: Isreal, the jews: Want the walll up, make reprisals for attacks, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocents and children. in the red corner: Palestine, the muslims: want the wall down, make reprisals for attacks, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocents and children. I don't see much difference there. Now consider, both sides are in the center of the cradle of civilization. holy place for the 3 of the worlds great religions and philosphies as well as the center for archelogical treasure which is being destroyed by war over idealism and a piece of dirt.Both sides, muslims and jews, are murderers of children. there is no excuse for that. Are you all crazy? Both sides fighting over a piece of dirt? albiet an important one but still a piece of dirt. Both sides are doing this because the non-secular leaders on both sides have interpreted the Torah and Koran incorrectly and have duped you into think it's a jihad. Holy men from both sides have Foxtrot up in the greatest way. they say from their books that tout peace to kill. Say what? There is no where in either book that says kill each other, especially over a piece of dirt. Make jihad? [Removed for Privacy], you want to make jihad OK, but what does it acomplish? Not a damn thing, except to maybe get you killed by a fanatic from the other side. Your economy sucks and a very beautiful and historical part of the world is being destroyed by the people who revere it most. where's the sense that? So my solutions, and i have a few, are: 1: nuke it, turn the entire area into a sea of glass, . A few megatons get's rid of both parties, Palestinians and Isrealies. If we don't have both sides no war. Everybody's dead; but the war has stopped and what's left becomes the worlds largest garbage duimp. No good? OK try this then. Make peace and turn the region to tourism and agriculture. Everybody makes money, people come to visit from all over the world. jews, muslims and christains alike who let them in here lol and who take pictures and spend the money you now make and most important, [Removed for Privacy] goes to school and becomes whateveryou want instead of taking up arms and possibly losing your life while your mother buries you. No parent should ever have to bury a child. Best of all, I don't have to nuke the place. A dead martyr is still dead. Get it? you guys are fighting a dead issue brought on by a few extremely fundamental religious fanatics on both sides, and all of you, muslims and jews, buy into it. that means no schools, homes, factories, tourist or money for anyone, just death and war of which I've seen a lot. Is that what you want? if so, come over here and you and I can take a couple of my guns out and have at it. What do you want my colt six shooter? (the cowboys favorite) sure. Better yet why don't you come over and we'll BBQ some nice salmon in mesquite with some veggies and cider non-alcoholic. Then we can take those guns out to the range for some fun rather than to kill other. I'm glad you posted this. It gives me a chance to tell you, a palestinian muslim what this american jew feels. It is an argument I have with both musilms and jews here. So for the last time. you guys are beating a dead horse. all it can mean is more death and destruction. And god help you if either sides gets their hands on a nuke. It will take someone or several someones to make peace in that region. You're 18, it could be you. So if you are a fundamentalist on either side do my new friend and I a favor. go kill yourself. your screwing up his life. [Removed for Privacy], will you accept my hand in friendship? Or should we kill each other over Bullshiitake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fett Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 An examination. In the blue corner: Isreal, the jews: Want the walll up, make reprisals for attacks, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocents and children. in the red corner: Palestine, the muslims: want the wall down, make reprisals for attacks, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocents and children. I don't see much difference there. Now consider, both sides are in the center of the cradle of civilization. holy place for the 3 of the worlds great religions and philosphies as well as the center for archelogical treasure which is being destroyed by war over idealism and a piece of dirt. If only it were that simple. I�d just like to point out that the Israeli military, unlike Palestinian suicide bombers, makes an effort not to harm civilians. There�s a difference between firing a rocket at a car and accidentally killing civilians, and sending a human bomb onto a bus filled with innocent people. The wall is going up to protect Israel from those kinds of attacks. If the Palestinians don�t like it, tough. They�ll gain the assurance that no Israeli squatters will be able to encroach on Palestinian land. Since a peace is unable to be negotiated at the present time, this is a viable solution that saves lives by separating the two sides. Clearly, there is a difference. Are you all crazy? Both sides fighting over a piece of dirt? albiet an important one but still a piece of dirt. Both sides are doing this because the non-secular leaders on both sides have interpreted the Torah and Koran incorrectly and have duped you into think it's a jihad. Holy men from both sides have Foxtrot up in the greatest way. they say from their books that tout peace to kill. Say what? There is no where in either book that says kill each other, especially over a piece of dirt. Make jihad? [Removed for Privacy], you want to make jihad OK, but what does it acomplish? Not a damn thing, except to maybe get you killed by a fanatic from the other side. Your economy sucks and a very beautiful and historical part of the world is being destroyed by the people who revere it most. where's the sense that? By that logic, your property is just a piece of dirt too. If I come and try to demolish your house, would you fight to defend it? This war is over more than territory. Tell me when and where Jewish leaders have called for jihad? I don�t think such a thing has happened� Get it? you guys are fighting a dead issue brought on by a few extremely fundamental religious fanatics on both sides, and all of you, muslims and jews, buy into it. that means no schools, homes, factories, tourist or money for anyone, just death and war of which I've seen a lot. I'm glad you posted this. It gives me a chance to tell you, a palestinian muslim what this american jew feels. It is an argument I have with both musilms and jews here. I really don�t think this is a dead issue, when it�s affecting millions of people every day. So for the last time. you guys are beating a dead horse. all it can mean is more death and destruction. And god help you if either sides gets their hands on a nuke. It will take someone or several someones to make peace in that region. You're 18, it could be you. Perhaps in the Palestinian people come to the realization that their government is being walked all over by terrorists and their children are being corrupted by a culture of hate, they will rise up and end this conflict. Only a truly democratic Palestinian state can truly peacefully coexist with Israel. Petie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i n d i g o Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 [SIZE=1][COLOR=Indigo] Everyone can just stop - right now. I have the magical solution that will solve everything. . . . [b]Build a Disney Land[/b]. Simple as that. Make the place a tourist attraction, everyone [b]has[/b] to get along at the happiest God damn place on earth. I should be frickin' president, I know. (So much for maturity, ne?) [/COLOR][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShinje Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Palestine was Israel before the Roman invasion of 70 AD, Israel has been captured and run over many times before that, and always come back to it's spiritual home. Israel today, by being in it's home of old, is merely repeating history. I would like to see a Palestinian state. Perhaps one day, that will eventuate. However, with the unrelenting viloence of the Palestinian intifada and subsequent revenge attacks, I don't see it happening. "There is nothing new under the sun", how true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Rin Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Remember I'm C of E. Historically and in the Old Testament [size=1]a christain reference book[/size] this land has belong to the jews for over 2500 years. Long before the Romans and Palestinians. Long before Christainity or the Mulsims appeared. However that doesn't matter. [quote name='Indigo']Build a Disney Land. [/quote] Outstanding idea, Ranger even suggested tourism. [quote name='Ranger']... murderers of children.[/quote] Both sides kill innocents. Even if they try to avoid it. It's called collateral damage by the military on both sides. It's totally uncalled for by either. [quote=Boba Fett] your property is just a piece of dirt too. If I come and try to demolish your house, would you fight to defend it? This war is over more than territory.[/quote] In reality we would defend this place, but not over idealisms foisted on us by the clerics on both sides. Yet there is an analogy; the Lemmons down the road. We fiight. Laura usually starts it with a comment that could be considered a terrorists bomb. Sometimes I retaliate with something witty and clever (snipers shot or assasin) or a broad comment on her alcoholism, bad habits, house, and her flirting with Ranger (Air Attack). Laura has even commented on my children (killing innocents). She doesn't care about anything.(leaders on both sides) The same as in Isreal. Neither side cares about killing the other. An offer of peace made to Laura is ignored. (the leaders again).Talk to the people. I would think that a survey of 10,000 on both sides would show the general populace want's peace. They just don't know how to do it. When the Lemmons had a problem, like during the storms a week ago, we respond to help like the commnuiity and good neighbors should even though we don't like them (a PAX). It is the leaders who want war. Both secular and non-secular want to kill each other. Both secular and non-secular want war. Like Rangers says both nations buy into the political and religious dogmatisim thrown at them so they hate each other. If they wanted peace it would have been accomplished already. There was a story on CNN about a Jewish girl and a Palestinian boy, an admitted terrorist leader. In their love he changed his mind and started to look for peace. The girl was thrown in jail and charged with treason for loving this boy. Thrown in jail for love? Thrown in jail for a bid of peace? Isn't that a bit much? The boy went back to war. As of this posting Chabichou has not returned to comment. Chabichou if you have been following, where is your response to that awful hateful jew who extended his hand in friendship. Where is a hug and greeting for the wife of that awful jew who only wants to stuff salmon into you and watch Inuyasha and Card Captors or Stellvia or Jubei Chan. My drawing was not meant for this type of post and I am a little upset that is used for such. On the other hand, it is appropriate, and my brown sugar salmon is something to die for, however; not over a political agenda. Like Ranger I would like a Muslim friend so here it is again. Do you like salmon? [center] [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/desertranger/nowar128.gif[/IMG] -- [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/desertranger/together_we.png[/IMG] -- [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/desertranger/nowar128_2.gif[/IMG] Won't you be my neighbor - Fred Rogers - [size=1]a christain.[/size] [URL=http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=43810][color=deeppink]It takes a village[/color][/URL], even if it's a global one. [/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 [COLOR=#004A6F][quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']On Friday May 14, 1948, when the British mandate to over Palestine expired, the state of Israel was established and later officially recognized by the United Nations. This alone gives Israelis perfectly legitimate claim over this land.[/color][/quote]I really don't see the logic in that. So Britain was already occupying a land that was not theirs, and just hand over this illegally occupied land to the jews? If they want the jews to have their own land so badly, why didn't they just give them Britain? No country has the right to occupy another country and do what they please with it. Unfortuanately, european countries at that time saw themselves as superior to others and gave themselves the right to invade other countries to rob them of their resources. They come to the Americas and kill off the natives and steal a land that did not belong to them. They wanted to go to india and the middle east to get spices and other luxeries. This whole problem was started because of these selfish and greedy countries. Oh and you think because the U.N recognised them as a nation it makes it legal? Well, the U.N made a mistake if they allowed the jews to go to palestine and destroy the palestinian homes and take over their country. I thought the U.N was all about justice and peace![QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Al Jazeera is the most biased news source in the world, and a terribly obvious propaganda wing of Islamic extremists. It?s no coincidence that all these terrorist tapes and videos we hear about are delivered there first. Take a look at their English version site; tell me if you can find a single report that portrays America or Israel in a positive light. [URL=http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=5875]Do you seriously believe this?[/URL][/color][/QUOTE]You're only calling it biased because it's the only network that shows the atrocities the American government commits in other countries. The USA's government is one of the most decietful and selfish governments there are. The government lied about Iraq having nuclear weapons. You want nuclear weapons? Go to Korea -Oh wait there's no oil there.... And since when did CNN show Islam in a positive light? Why call those so called Muslim Terrorists "Islamic Extremists"? If you ask me an "Islamic Extremist" would be one of the most peaceful and loving person in the world who is constantly worshipping his lord and is not involved in violence in any way. Why? Because Islam is a religion of PEACE! In regards to the article, whether it be true or not, I wouldn't have a problem believing it. The disgusting photos of Iraqi prisoners being tortured and sexually asaulted on the news is enough proof for me that America does not give a damn about the Iraqi people. Many prisoners have done nothing wrong and didn't even approach the American soldiers. I've watched a documentary where a British reporter went to Iraq and was intreviewing both sides of the American and Iraqi conflict. He went to a prisoner camp and saw hundreds of people who've been waiting for months to see their loved ones inside, most of whom have done nothing wrong. The conditions inside are terrible, the food is rotten and the prisoners are constantly abused. Many women have been raped. So, this is freeing the Iraqi people huh? As for the insurgeons, (though I do believe they are really going overboard with the beheadings), they know that the U.S is merely trying to control Iraq, and that the Iraqi interm government is being controlled by the U.S government. How can they trust the U.S. government when they know that their dirty money lies in the pockets of the Iraqi interm government? Anyway, back to Palestine. Whenever, any hate crime is commited against Jews, It's always on the news. Just the site of the swatzika drawn somewhere, and the police are on the case. But when the mosque in my community had it's windows smashed, there was nothing in the news. From everyhting I've seen and heard, people are in much bigger favor of Jews than Muslims. Propaganda is in their favor too.[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green]By that logic, your property is just a piece of dirt too. If I come and try to demolish your house, would you fight to defend it? This war is over more than territory.[/color][/QUOTE]Shouldn't palestinians then defend their homeland? I know all that Boba Fett is gonna say is that the land belongs to the Jews. Well, I'm Muslim and in my religion we don't believe that. What if I told you that in my religion, we do believe that god sent down the Torah and the Bible, but Gods words have been altered by men? God finally sent down his final revelation which he has taken it it upon himself to preserve it. I believe what the Quran says. This is why I don't believe the jews have a claim over the land. Because it says so in [i]my[/i] religion. We do believe that at some point it was the jews promised land, because from my religion's point of view, the jewish religion was the proper one at the time until the Torah was altered. However, the jews/israelites have been denied the "Holy Land" by thier lord as an everlasting punishment for straying from the right path sent down to them from God to Moses and His brother. In fact this is stated in the jewish religion too. That is why there are even jewish people out there who believe the occupation should be ended. Even if jews believe the land is promised to them, why give them the land when the people who live there already have a completely different belief? Since when were jews better than muslims?[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Tell me when and where Jewish leaders have called for jihad? I don?t think such a thing has happened?[/color][/QUOTE]Looks like you have given in to the dumb propaganda which you claim to be so completely against. Jihad simply means "struggle", so it can take on many forms. On of them fighting for the sake of Islam. It doesn't mean we go and bomb Israeli civilians. That's not Jihad. Even warfare is discussed in the Quran. God tells us that we may not harm women and children and the elderly or even the men who aren't fighting you. Islam never takes the offensive side in war. We are only supposed to take the defensive side. If the leaders are calling for Jihad, they mean protect your country and people. When Israeli soldiers come to your city with bulldozers to destroy the Palestinian homes, Palestinians have every right to defend themselves. Sometimes they throw rocks. These are the civilians' only weapons. The Israeli soldiers actually see this as a threat? They are the ones with the guns and bullet proof vests and helmets. They actually shoot at the palestinian civilians and kill them because the threw rocks? A responsible soldier who is simply protecting his people shouldn't do that.[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green']I?d just like to point out that the Israeli military, unlike Palestinian suicide bombers, makes an effort not to harm civilians. There?s a difference between firing a rocket at a car and accidentally killing civilians, and sending a human bomb onto a bus filled with innocent people.[/color][/quote][COLOR="#004a6f"]This is where you are wrong. One of the biggest problems is that the Israeli soldiers make [i]no[/i] effort not to harm civilians. This is what makes the Palestinians so angry, bringing on more suicide bombers. Let's say a suicide bomber attacks an Israeli restaurant, and many innocent civilians are killed, most of whom ar women and children. This is how Israeli soldiers deal with it: [list=1] [*]After finding out who was responsible, they go to the home of the bombers family. [*]Ding-Dong! "Um, hello ma'am. Your son bombed an Israeli restaurant and killed nearly a hundred Israeli civilians. Therefore we have to demolish your home, although it will do nothing to bring these people back to life and you probably had nothing to do with with the bombing. You have two minutes to evactuate everyone in the house." [*]Seeing the gun held in the soldiers arms, the mother decides not to argue. She tells everone to get out of the house. The get all the children out but they are having trouble with the 80 year old grandfather, who is upstairs and is too weak to get on his feet due to old age. The don't even have a wheelchair to transport him since they are so poor. Mother: "Sir we need a little more time, grandpa is still up there and he's too weak to get on his feet. [*]Soldier: "Is that so? Well I think I'll demolish the house anyway". [*]The soldier demolishes the house. knowing that a 80-year old man is inside, too weak to get on his feet and escape. [/list]Where is the justice in this malicious act? I don't think it's right to compare Israeli soldiers to Palestinian suicide bombers. Personally, I believe that bombing Israeli citizens is wrong. It doesn't bring Palestinians any closer to getting their homeland back, and it brings more aggresion from Israeli soldiers to Palestinian civilians. It doesn't help one bit in my opinion. But why should Israeli soldiers have the right to kill palestinian civilians just because Palestinian suicide bombers attacked Israeli civilians? What the suicide bombers did in the first place was not right, but it's not as if they have a properly functioning government to back them up. We don't even have a state right now. Meanwhile, the Israeli soldiers are actually working for the Israeli government and Israel is even part of the U.N. Should a responsible and just government allow it's soldiers to harm civilians? And not just harming civilians, they go and rip up trees in orange farms. Would someone please tell me what is the point of that? How does it benefit Israelis?[/COLOR][quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']The wall is going up to protect Israel from those kinds of attacks. If the Palestinians don?t like it, tough. They?ll gain the assurance that no Israeli squatters will be able to encroach on Palestinian land. Since a peace is unable to be negotiated at the present time, this is a viable solution that saves lives by separating the two sides.[/color][/quote]Meanwhile, people can't go tho their jobs because it's on the other side. Members of the same family are separated because they are on opposite sides of the wall. And the Israeli soldiers gaurding the walls don't let them cross. And if they do let you cross, they take their sweet bloody time doing so. Pretty much what I'm saying is that Israeli soldiers are jerks and they treat the Palestinian people like crap. [SIZE=3]In response to Lady_Rin, I accept your hand in friendship. I have never been against jews and never will be. I am sick and tired of people calling me anti-semetic because first of all, Palestinians are semites too, and like I said before, I don't hate jews. After all, Palestinians and Jews are ancestrall cousins. We are both anscestors of Abraham are we not? I've had many jewish friends a few years back and was very fond of them. They aren't awful and hateful one bit. They were some of the sweetest people I have ever met in my whole life.[/SIZE] I am only against the jewish occupation of my land, because Palestine is where my roots belong. It is a holy land for muslims too and I don't want to be denied access to Jerusalem, one of the most Holy places. It just really makes me mad that the Israelis want to demolish the dome of the rock because they believe their own religious site used to be in the same place. Like I said before, why should Judaism be favored over Islam and Israelis have the right to destroy our holy sites?[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Concerning what you said about the suicide bombing and the fact that the Israeli soldiers just went and demolished the house anyways. I see no difference than what the bomber did. He killed many innocent civilians, while the Israeli's just killed one. *shrug* I don't see how the suicide bomber is not to blame for the grandfathers death. The reason why Muslims are portrayed in such a bad way is because quite frankly they do it themselves. How many Christians strap bombs on themselves and walk into a crowded street? In the Jewish religion, [i]their[/i] religion, it says the Promised Land is theres. What does that mean? That means they don't believe that it belongs to Muslims. So what are they doing? They are fighting to protect it just as you said Palestinians should. But you don't see Israeli's strapping bombs to themselves, I see Muslims. I know that sounds really harsh. But it is the truth nontheless. Now I'm not saying they don't, but you don't hear about them as often as Muslims. Have you seen the damage that a rock can do? Doesn't matter if a soldier is wearing a bullet proof vest. What if it smash their knee? Or is smashes into their face? A responsible soldier protects himself if he is threatened. Getting rocks thrown at you falls under protecting yourself. Besides, why throw rocks in the first place? What good will it do? If they don't want to get shot at, or something else, they should know better. It is truly a no win situation that will eventually come to a peace that one side may not like. Both Israeli's and Muslims see the land as theirs, according to their religion as you said. So they are both going to fight for it. But it is the Palestinians who strap bombs to themselves, not the Jews. Sorry if this sounds really harsh, I am just stating what I know. You don't hear about Christians, Jews, or others strapping bombs to themselves and going into a crowded street. And I ask you. Why should Islam be favored of Judaism? *I am not all knowing on this subject. I am only using what I catch in watching the news a little bit every night, what I read occasionaly...etc..So if anyone out there wishes to enlighten me on what I have wrong, I've got no problems, heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven's Cloud Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 [quote name='Chabichou'] I really don't see the logic in that. So Britain was already occupying a land that was not theirs, and just hand over this illegally occupied land to the jews? If they want the jews to have their own land so badly, why didn't they just give them Britain? No country has the right to occupy another country and do what they please with it. Unfortuanately, european countries at that time saw themselves as superior to others and gave themselves the right to invade other countries to rob them of their resources. They come to the Americas and kill off the natives and steal a land that did not belong to them. They wanted to go to india and the middle east to get spices and other luxeries. This whole problem was started because of these selfish and greedy countries. Oh and you think because the U.N recognised them as a nation it makes it legal? Well, the U.N made a mistake if they allowed the jews to go to palestine and destroy the palestinian homes and take over their country. I thought the U.N was all about justice and peace!You're only calling it biased because it's the only network that shows the atrocities the American government commits in other countries. The USA's government is one of the most decietful and selfish governments there are. The government lied about Iraq having nuclear weapons. You want nuclear weapons? Go to Korea -Oh wait there's no oil there.... [/quote] [COLOR=INDIGO] Yeah, and how exactly are the Palestines any different? The term Palestine is derived from the Greek word ?Peleshet? meaning ?sea invaders? and the Arab word ?Palastina? meaning ?rolling or migratory?. The original Palestinians ousted the Romans that inhabited the area just like the Romans conquered the Hebrews that lived their before. The reality is that the only reason that Jewish population was not greater before 1800 was that the Turks were restricting the Jewish settlements in Jerusalem. However, due to prior agreements with Napoleon the Turks had to remove these barriers. By 1880 Israel was jam packed with Jews. By 1910 there was a large Jewish population and a strong movement for the Jews to form their own government (they were often persecuted by the Turks). Jewish peasants were buying property from Turks and owned the majority of what is Israel. Obviously the Israeli?s aren?t blameless. Upon the conception of Israel the newly formed government claimed the land that the British gave them and sent many a Palestinian packing. My point is, you cannot state that the Jews ?stole? anything from the Palestinians since so many Jews were their (and being oppressed) the whole time. [/COLOR] [QUOTE=Chabichou] Anyway, back to Palestine. Whenever, any hate crime is commited against Jews, It's always on the news. Just the site of the swatzika drawn somewhere, and the police are on the case. But when the mosque in my community had it's windows smashed, there was nothing in the news. From everyhting I've seen and heard, people are in much bigger favor of Jews than Muslims. Propaganda is in their favor too.Shouldn't palestinians then defend their homeland? I know all that Boba Fett is gonna say is that the land belongs to the Jews. Well, I'm Muslim and in my religion we don't believe that. What if I told you that in my religion, we do believe that god sent down the Torah and the Bible, but Gods words have been altered by men? God finally sent down his final revelation which he has taken it it upon himself to preserve it. I believe what the Quran says. This is why I don't believe the jews have a claim over the land. Because it says so in [i]my[/i] religion. We do believe that at some point it was the jews promised land, because from my religion's point of view, the jewish religion was the proper one at the time until the Torah was altered. However, the jews/israelites have been denied the "Holy Land" by thier lord as an everlasting punishment for straying from the right path sent down to them from God to Moses and His brother. In fact this is stated in the jewish religion too. That is why there are even jewish people out there who believe the occupation should be ended. Even if jews believe the land is promised to them, why give them the land when the people who live there already have a completely different belief? Since when were jews better than muslims? [/QUOTE] [COLOR=INDIGO]Jews defend their homeland? so many of them have descendants that lived there much longer the any of the Palestinians. You are arguing over a moot, speculative point. The fact is that if the Turks hadn?t oppressed the Jewish population for so long then Israel never would have been created. At the same token, if the Jews could have looked past the past and tried to form a joint government with the Turks this whole conflict could have been averted.[/COLOR] [quote name='Chabichou] Looks like you have given in to the dumb propaganda which you claim to be so completely against. Jihad simply means "struggle", so it can take on many forms. On of them fighting for the sake of Islam. It doesn't mean we go and bomb Israeli civilians. That's not Jihad. Even warfare is discussed in the Quran. God tells us that we may not harm women and children and the elderly or even the men who aren't fighting you. Islam never takes the offensive side in war. We are only supposed to take the defensive side. If the leaders are calling for Jihad, they mean protect your country and people. When Israeli soldiers come to your city with bulldozers to destroy the Palestinian homes, Palestinians have every right to defend themselves. Sometimes they throw rocks. These are the civilians' only weapons. The Israeli soldiers actually see this as a threat? They are the ones with the guns and bullet proof vests and helmets. They actually shoot at the palestinian civilians and kill them because the threw rocks? A responsible soldier who is simply protecting his people shouldn't do that.[COLOR="#004a6f"]This is where you are wrong. One of the biggest problems is that the Israeli soldiers make [i]no[/i'] effort not to harm civilians. This is what makes the Palestinians so angry, bringing on more suicide bombers.[/quote] [color=indigo]I think you have also given into propaganda, you seem to be equally blind towards the situation. If a person is paying taxes to the government on which land they reside then that government should not be able to take their property and the owner has every right to defend themselves. If a person doesn?t pay taxes then that person should know that their property is forfeit. The Palestinians that you mention know that they now live on Israeli soil and are therefore subjected to Israeli taxes, it doesn?t matter whether they recognize the government or not. If you live in the US you don?t have to recognize the nation but you sure as hell better pay your taxes or they will take your property. As far as rock throwing goes, I think that point shows you naiveté. If a group of people are hurling rocks at you, you could be killed just as easily as if you were shot. I think that soldiers that are attacked like that have the right to defend themselves. Palestine had the chance for peace and Arafat spit on it. It doesn?t matter whether the Palestinian government was properly functioning. It doesn?t matter how much backing the Israeli government has. Time after time the Palestinian leaders have had a chance to make peace and time after time they ignored that chance. Personally, I think that all outside involvement in this whole affair should be concluded if the Palestinians are unable to compromise this time around. The two nations can obliterate each other and I?ll sit around having a picnic.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fett Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004A6F']I really don't see the logic in that. So Britain was already occupying a land that was not theirs, and just hand over this illegally occupied land to the jews? If they want the jews to have their own land so badly, why didn't they just give them Britain? No country has the right to occupy another country and do what they please with it. Unfortuanately, european countries at that time saw themselves as superior to others and gave themselves the right to invade other countries to rob them of their resources. They come to the Americas and kill off the natives and steal a land that did not belong to them. They wanted to go to india and the middle east to get spices and other luxeries.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]If you don?t like it, go fight to change international law. Then we can redraw the borders of every nation on earth. The solution to this is to either peacefully assimilate the Palestinian people into Israel, or create a separate state out of the predominately Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank. Since the former is unlikely, and the latter has been tried with little success, I think that Israel should end the situation once and for all. Go in, remove the terrorists in these territories and hold real elections in Palestine. UN election observers can be there, if needed. The Palestinians can elect a government, have their state and live happily ever after so long as they don?t attack Israel.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004A6F'] Well, the U.N made a mistake if they allowed the jews to go to palestine and destroy the palestinian homes and take over their country. I thought the U.N was all about justice and peace!You're only calling it biased because it's the only network that shows the atrocities the American government commits in other countries. The USA's government is one of the most decietful and selfish governments there are.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]The U.N. is the world?s biggest joke. This is an organization that refuses to enforce its resolutions, that bows to anti-Semitism at every turn and is very corrupt, as the Oil-for-Food scandal has shown. As for Al-Jazeera, you need to get your head out of the sand. Atrocities? Seriously? The US isn?t perfect, nor do we claim to be. The US armed forces have committed atrocities, and done terrible things, as has every other military force on the face of the planet. The US government too makes mistakes. These mistakes are revealed in the US media and through other media outlets worldwide. However, most news organizations are in the habit of using facts when making such incendiary allegations. [b]Al-Jazeera does no such thing.[/b] Putting it simply, they are twisting facts and sometimes plain lying to incite anti US and Israel feelings/violence in the Middle East. The US government is far from selfish, or deceitful. To say so is ridiculous, every way you look at it. The US helped end World War I, bringing peace to a worn torn Europe. A little more than two decades later, the US returned to Europe to stop Hitler?s Nazis and Mussolini?s fascists from continuing their wars of aggression. Once this conflict was over, the US provided billions of dollars in aid to rebuild all European countries. We forgave our enemies and offered a hand in rebuilding. The same was done to post-war Japan. When the Soviet Union began to spread communism, taking away basic human rights and oppressing Eastern European countries, the US opposed it. We flew supplies to Berlin day and night during the Berlin airlift to feed the people of that city when the Russians cut it off. The U.S. has sent billions to Africa to fight AIDS, hunger and poverty. We have forgiven billion in debt to poor countries. Selfish? The US is one of the most open and free countries on earth. Our press is allowed to publish whatever it wishes; even stories of dubious credibility are given airtime. While governments are naturally defensive and secretive, ours does its best to be honest with the world. Mistakes are made, like intelligence failures regarding Iraq, overzealous CIA operations during the Cold War, etc. Our government truly does strive to be honest, and serve the people it governs. Deceitful?[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004A6F']And since when did CNN show Islam in a positive light? Why call those so called Muslim Terrorists "Islamic Extremists"? If you ask me an "Islamic Extremist" would be one of the most peaceful and loving person in the world who is constantly worshipping his lord and is not involved in violence in any way. Why? Because Islam is a religion of PEACE![/COLOR][/quote] [color=green] [URL=http://search.cnn.com/pages/search/advanced.jsp?Coll=cnn_xml&QuerySubmit=true&Page=1&QueryText=Islam&query=Islam]Take a look here[/URL]. Find me a story that?s biased against Islam. An Islamic Extremist is someone who gets onto a bus filled with civilians and blows himself up, killing everyone onboard. Islamic Extremists flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania, killing thousands. Car bombs set by Islamic Extremists kill innocent people daily in Iraq. Islamic Extremists like Bin Laden demand Israel be driven into the sea. Islamic Extremists sponsor terrorist training camps [u]for children[/u] and dress their own kids up in suicide bomber outfits. Islam is, like Judaism and Christianity, a religion of peace. However, there are radical Muslims who have perverted their faith and attempted to use it to justify their dastardly acts. It is they who we fight.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004A6F'] In regards to the article, whether it be true or not, I wouldn't have a problem believing it. The disgusting photos of Iraqi prisoners being tortured and sexually asaulted on the news is enough proof for me that America does not give a damn about the Iraqi people. Many prisoners have done nothing wrong and didn't even approach the American soldiers.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]If that was true, why are we jailing those who committed those perverted acts? If that was true, why haven?t we just bombed the hell out of Iraq and pumped oil out of that country with fervor never before seen? If that was true, why are American soldiers fighting Islamic Extremists who are setting off car bombs that are [b]killing innocent Iraqis[/b]? If we didn?t care, we?d leave the country in chaos. We care enough too send our young men and women into deadly situations for the freedom of Iraq. We care enough to, when our own nation is in debt and still recovering from recession, give billions in aid to the fledgling Iraqi government.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004A6F'] As for the insurgeons, (though I do believe they are really going overboard with the beheadings), they know that the U.S is merely trying to control Iraq, and that the Iraqi interm government is being controlled by the U.S government. How can they trust the U.S. government when they know that their dirty money lies in the pockets of the Iraqi interm government?[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]Just with beheadings? How about car bombs in the streets? The killing of Iraqi police officers? Take a look in the pockets of your own leaders. I?d bet you anything that the leaders of the Palestinian people are far more corrupt than any in Iraq. Do a google search regarding Arafat?s fortune. He was rolling in dough while his people lived in squalor. The leader of the Iraqi government are not corrupt. If you insist upon this, [b]prove it[/b]. [/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004A6F']Anyway, back to Palestine. Whenever, any hate crime is commited against Jews, It's always on the news. Just the site of the swatzika drawn somewhere, and the police are on the case. But when the mosque in my community had it's windows smashed, there was nothing in the news. From everyhting I've seen and heard, people are in much bigger favor of Jews than Muslims. Propaganda is in their favor too.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]Really? That?s blatantly false. The UN has voted to condemn Israel, and does so [b] an average of 19 times a year[/b]. [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4002853.stm[/url] [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4051037.stm[/url] [url]http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/06/mideast/index.html[/url] [url]http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/12/mideast.violence/index.html[/url] There are a plethora of pro-Palestinian websites out there. I?d say that the sides are equally represented, and judging by the voting in the UN, Israel has far less good press than do the Palestinians.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Even though I just don't have the energy to get drawn into this (pity, too, because I'm aching for a debate lately), I'd like to make one small point here. [quote name='Chabichou]Looks like you have given in to the dumb propaganda which you claim to be so completely against. [b]Jihad simply means "struggle", so it can take on many forms. On of them fighting for the sake of Islam.[/b] It doesn't mean we go and bomb Israeli civilians. That's not Jihad. Even warfare is discussed in the Quran. God tells us that we may not harm women and children and the elderly or even the men who aren't fighting you. [b]Islam never takes the offensive side in war. We are only supposed to take the defensive side[/b']. If the leaders are calling for Jihad, they mean protect your country and people. When Israeli soldiers come to your city with bulldozers to destroy the Palestinian homes, Palestinians have every right to defend themselves. Sometimes they throw rocks. These are the civilians' only weapons. The Israeli soldiers actually see this as a threat? They are the ones with the guns and bullet proof vests and helmets. They actually shoot at the palestinian civilians and kill them because the threw rocks? A responsible soldier who is simply protecting his people shouldn't do that.[/quote] It's very clear how Boba Fett was using the term "Jihad," Chabi, so I think it's extremely ignorant of you to try to spin it in some weird tangent. It's undeniable that when we talk about "Jihad," we're specifically talking about the "Jihad" called for by Bin Laden and various other Islamic Extremists, and when we mention how there's this extreme scarcity of Jewish leaders calling for "Jihad," that Jihad is the same Jihad of the Islamic Extremists. I don't even think you should try to spin the Jihad we're talking about as some sort of defensive measure, because the Jihad that Bin Laden and his ilk is calling for is being used as an [i]offensive[/i] measure. Like a few have said here, Israel isn't totally innocent, but to ignore precisely what's going on here, and portray Palestinians as a bunch of freedom fighters? That's just asinine. Really, everyone here needs to closely watch Star Wars a few times, I think. And I mean [i]really watch it[/i]. I think a lot of this Middle East conflict will become strikingly clear after it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retribution Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Look. The Palestinians need to get off the Israeli's land. They were there first, and the Palestinians can be bitter about it, but it still doesn't change the fact. Palestinians say that their holy book says that this is their promised land. Same goes for the Christians (the crusades), and the Jews! Get over it! Just because your book says that the gaza strip is yours doesn't mean that you get to evict everyone else living there. The Aljazeera thing. Good god, it just opened up my eyes on how biased it is. I can't believe that stuff. We used napalm? Yeah right. Maybe the wall is a good thing. Although, the problem is that there is no drawn line of palestinains here, israelis here. They are both mixed in together, and a wall wouldn't do much good, unless you told people to move to their corresponding side. And the nuke thing is absolutely sick. Why would you want to kill innocent children and civilians mixed up in a senseless war? The Disneyland is a good idea. If suicide bombers didn't level the place. And Arafat did need to die. He was an obstacle to peace in the middle east. (why is there so much fighting over there? Iraq, Israel, Palestine, not to mention all the horrible, tyrants in the general africa/middle east area.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danethol Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I really don't have much credible information about this topic, so I'll stay out of the major debate. However, this confused me a bit... [quote][color=darkslateblue]Like I said before, why should Judaism be favored over Islam and Israelis have the right to destroy our holy sites?[/color][/quote] [quote][color=darkslateblue]What if I told you that in my religion, we do believe that god sent down the Torah and the Bible, but Gods words have been altered by men? God finally sent down his final revelation which he has taken it it upon himself to preserve it. I believe what the Quran says. This is why I don't believe the jews have a claim over the land. Because it says so in my religion.[/color][/quote] [b]My religion.[/b] Think about those words. Religion. Do you think that might possibly be why the Jewish people also believe the land to belong to them? Because their religion says that, just as your religion says it belongs to you? Sorry, this may be over my head, but all I can say is that if you're going to back up a your argument with religion that's contradictory on both sides, we'll get no where. That's all I wanted to say. I'm about to be proved wrong again, aren't I? ^ ^; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 [QUOTE="Chabichou"] In response to Lady_Rin, I accept your hand in friendship.[/QUOTE] Lady Rin is gentle and pure of heart. Chabichou, believe it or not you will have made her very happy over thought of your friendship, even if it's only online. I am no longer going to take part in this discussion. I have lost too many friends in a war just like this one. I still see their faces in my dreams. I have no wih to see others. Chabichou, I hope that you have lost none of your family or friends and that they are safe. I ask you not to take weapons in a war of politics and religion. Live your life as best you can and do not let hate for governments affect your feelings for the people who have no control over them. May the Spirit of the Desert bring you peace and walk in your shoes. (Native American saying). Koh na wash ta na, koh na wash ta ne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 [COLOR=#004a6f] :confused: :( :flaming: Okay, there are a few things people keep stating that really upset me: 1. Why do people keep saying "The Jews were there first"? Is that the [i]only[/i] freakin' argument you have? Yes, I understand the ancestors of the present day jews used to live there, but just before and up to 1948, palestinians have been living there for hundreds of years. How come no body seems to have a problem with the jews coming in and kicking palestinians out of their homes just because this land used to belong to the jews hundreds or nearly a thousand years ago? 2. No one ever seems to care that palestinian civilians are being killed, and at a much higher rate than even Israeli soldiers themselves! People always argue that the stupid suicide bombers killed Israelis first. OKAY! I get the point! How many times do I have to say that I don't support suicide bombing attacks?! That does NOT give Israeli soldiers the right WHATSOEVER to kill palestinian civilians! In fact, the only reason there are so many suicide bombing attacks is because Israeli soldiers killed Palestinian civilians in the first place! No body seems to care that there were many massacres after the Israeli occupation began. They were relentless. They lined palestinians up and shot them. The bayoneted pregnant women. The raped many women and right in front of their husbands too, and then killed them. They killed entire families while forcing the father to watch. This all really happened. Looks like it was a holocaust against palestinians to me. Meanwhile, the jews happily move into the country and build their new homes right where there used to be palestinian homes, while the palestians are being [i]massacred[/i]. Does anyone other than me see a reason why there are suicide bombings in the first place? 3. As for the palestinians throwing rocks Boba Fett, [i]they[/i] were defending themselves. They start throwing rocks as the Israeli soldiers come to raid their city... "Haha, one of your dumb suicide bombers has attacked our civilians, so now, we can label you as terrorists too and we get have fun picking you off with our rifles." They throw rocks as the Israeli soldiers charge in with tanks. TANKS for God's sake! The Israeli soldiers started the offence in the first place. Some of the Soldiers even run away! Sure, you would want to assume it was because they wanted to "avoid having to hurt the palestinians", but I don't believe so. They are cowards. They were after all going in there to hurt the Palestinians in the first place. This is one of the stories that has angered me the most. And no Bobba Fett, this isn't propaganda because it was all over the news. Not just the 'biased' 'antisemetic' and 'racist' Aljazeera: [url]http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/502/re6.htm[/url] Why? :( WHY???!!!! Here is one fact that shows even more atrocities Israel has commited against palestinians. Did you know, that some Palestinians who are captured (whether they be militants, or teenage boys who simply were throwing rocks, or old men), are killed by the Israeli soldiers and their bodies used for scientific research? I have the pictures for proof, but they are too inappropriate to post on otakuboards. What is your argument there Bobba Fett? And there's more. There's a whole lot more you don't hear on the news. I've seen a picture of two Israeli soldiers smiling as they shoot a photo of the body of a small boy the had just killed. They were happy about what they did! This isn't racisim? This isn't a crime? So the UN has condemed Israel for their crimes against palestinians? Well, don't just stand there! Punish them! MAKE THEM PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES! What about Ariel Sharon? He ordered the massacre of the Palestinians that took place in Sabra and Shatila in 1982. How come he hasn't been punished yet? And people DARE to call him a man of peace! The moment I saw him on T.V. I could tell he was evil. Previous Israeli prime ministers like Ehude Barak were a lot nicer than him. Of course he was replaced because the Israelis thought Palestinians should be dealt with more harshly. Palestinians have rights too. Israelis have taken all the wealth of the land for themselves and Palestinians live in poverty. Furthermore, the are a lot more Palestinians there than Israelis. Did you know that Gaza city is has the highest population in the world? Citywide that is. Meanwhile the jewish settlers get 70% of the water while the much larger Palestinian population gets 30%. How is this just in any way? Palestinians have nothing while the Israeli settlers get big, beautiful houses in the most beautiful parts of Palestine. Pools included. They don't even have to pay for it, cause the government does! The Israeli government just invites more and more jews to move to Palestine, hence occupying more and more land and expanding their settlements. But where does the government get all this money? Why diamonds ofcourse! Like I said, those selfish pigs have taken all the wealth of the land for selfselves! In addition, the state of Israel receives funding from a wide variety of western companies. Disney included. So, you want to build a disney land huh? [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 [QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f] How many times do I have to say that I don't support suicide bombing attacks?! [/COLOR][/QUOTE] It doesn't matter that you support them or not. There's only so much a government can tolerate from a neighboring nation before it loses it's cool. With suicide bombing happening twice a week at one point, you'd be naive to think that Israel would just say "OK let's just talk about it guys." It doesn't matter what the majority of Palestinians think or feel about the subject if they don't stop the minority from doing stupid ****. Also good job on quoting an Anti-American news source that "shows" a palestinian boy being killed (even though there's no blood anywhere). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven's Cloud Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 [QUOTE=Chabichou]:confused: :( :flaming: Okay, there are a few things people keep stating that really upset me: 1. Why do people keep saying "The Jews were there first"? Is that the [i]only[/i] freakin' argument you have? Yes, I understand the ancestors of the present day jews used to live there, but just before and up to 1948, palestinians have been living there for hundreds of years. How come no body seems to have a problem with the jews coming in and kicking palestinians out of their homes just because this land used to belong to the jews hundreds or nearly a thousand years ago?[/quote] [color=indgio]Because the Jews didn't just come in and kick out the Palestines. The Jews never left the area that is now Israel. As I stated in my previous post (which I am not sure if you read) the Jew population was regulated and their position in society was opressed by the Turks. This wasn't a case of a group of people coming over to Palestine and taking over, it was case of a group of opressed people rising up and attempting to liberate themselves from an oppressive society.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou']2. No one ever seems to care that palestinian civilians are being killed, and at a much higher rate than even Israeli soldiers themselves! People always argue that the stupid suicide bombers killed Israelis first. OKAY! I get the point! How many times do I have to say that I don't support suicide bombing attacks?! That does NOT give Israeli soldiers the right WHATSOEVER to kill palestinian civilians! In fact, the only reason there are so many suicide bombing attacks is because Israeli soldiers killed Palestinian civilians in the first place![/quote] [color=indigo]Like Harry stated, Palestinian suicide bombers were targeting schools, hotels, temples and restraunts killing tons of people. These suicide bombers were encouraged and [b]funded[/b] by Arafat, who lead the Palestinians. I think that gives Israel a pretty good justification to attack those people (civilian or not) they believe are responsible for coordinating the bombings.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou']No body seems to care that there were many massacres after the Israeli occupation began. They were relentless. They lined palestinians up and shot them. The bayoneted pregnant women. The raped many women and right in front of their husbands too, and then killed them. They killed entire families while forcing the father to watch. This all really happened. Looks like it was a holocaust against palestinians to me.[/quote] [color=indigo]You are going a bit far saying the Palestinians are being massacared. This isn't the David versus Goliath match that most would have you believe. First off, the Turks (Palestinians) began the war in the twenties. They began the first offensive campaign against the Jews. The UN had to step in and defend the Jews from being entirely wiped out. Then the Turks went on the offensive again in the late thirties to early forties after encouragment from the Nazi's. To say that the Jews went on the offensive and began this conflict isn't just ridiculous it is wrong. I agree that the Israeli's could handle certian situations better. They did execute terrorists and may have even bayoneted a few innocent pregnant mothers. How many kids did one Palestinian suicide bomber kill whae he demolished that hotel. One undeniable truth about this whole mess is that Israeli's go after millitary targets while the Palestinians tend to attack innocent business establishements. Both sides are equally as guilty when it comes to violent pointless deaths. [/color] [QUOTE=Chabichou]This is one of the stories that has angered me the most. And no Bobba Fett, this isn't propaganda because it was all over the news. Not just the 'biased' 'antisemetic' and 'racist' Aljazeera: [url]http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/502/re6.htm[/url] Why? :( WHY???!!!![/quote] [color=indigo]Then please, give us a link o that same story from a reputable news scource, even the BBC, which tends to lean more towards the palestinian plight, would be fine. No offense, but your scource is less than reputable. I don't care if I don't change your opinion on this situation, but you are supporting your arguments with inaccurate, incredibly biased information. [/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 [COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Heaven's Cloud]Because the Jews didn't just come in and kick out the Palestines. The Jews never left the area that is now Israel. As I stated in my previous post (which I am not sure if you read) the Jew population was regulated and their position in society was opressed by the Turks. This wasn't a case of a group of people coming over to Palestine and taking over, it was case of a group of opressed people rising up and attempting to liberate themselves from an oppressive society.[/QUOTE]What the hell do palestinians have to do with Turks? I'm not a Turk. In fact, I am closer to the jews in blood than to the Turks. Here, get this straight: there were palestinians living on the land, in their own homes they built for them selves, hundreds of years after the Jews left palestine. Why do these Jews have the right to demolish their homes? I also understand that there were some Jews living in palestine before 1948, apperently they were buying land from palestinians. Which gives them the right to live there too. But how come other Jews, from OUTSIDE of the country can just come in and take kick palestinians out?[QUOTE=Heaven's Cloud]Like Harry stated, Palestinian suicide bombers were targeting schools, hotels, temples and restraunts killing tons of people. These suicide bombers were encouraged and [b]funded[/b] by Arafat, who lead the Palestinians. I think that gives Israel a pretty good justification to attack those people (civilian or not) they believe are responsible for coordinating the bombings.[/QUOTE]Meanwhle Israelis attack schools and mosques and palestinian communities just for the hell of it? A five year-old boy who lives in the same suicide bomber did nothing wrong. There is no justification WHATSOEVER for Israelis targeting him. What the hell does this little boy have to do with "coordinating" the bombings? I'm sorry, but your argument is completely illogical. As for Arafat, he's an idiot. He didn't do squat for the palestinians.[QUOTE=Heaven's Cloud']You are going a bit far saying the Palestinians are being massacared. This isn't the David versus Goliath match that most would have you believe.[/quote]It's not like these kinds of massacres are occuring now, though something almost of the sort. They happened in the past. But 20 years ago when Ariel Sharon was minister of defense still counts. [quote name='Heaven's Cloud']Then please, give us a link o that same story from a reputable news scource, even the BBC, which tends to lean more towards the palestinian plight, would be fine. No offense, but your scource is less than reputable.[/quote]Since when did every Arabic or Muslim website become biased? See, there's already racism right there! I remembered the story of that boy and merely looked up his name on Google. That site I linked too was merely the first one on the list. Fine, go ahead and look for the same story in CNN and BCC. It's there too. Of course, the intreview with the father of the boy who was killed woulnd't be their because that would be "biased" wouldn't it? Well, I think the words of direct witnesses should not be ignored, because THAT would be biased. I am shocked why so many people are in such high support of a state that oppresses a minority group within it so badly. Everytime I present an arguement, I am bombared with the same untrue arguments from the other side. Everybody ignored the statment I made about the highly unequal distribution of resources in the occupied state of Palestine. Why? Because it actually shows the truth? Since the beginning of time, the truth has always been fought so badly before it was finally accepted. When Galelio presented the heliocentric model of the solar system, he was continuously mocked and I think he was even jailed. People can be so ignorant. So far, one person is in support of palestine. Just one. I just don't understand how so many people can ignore the atrocities that happen to palestinians. No body ever has sympathy for them. Palestinians have suffured far more than the Israelis, and people refuse to accept it. For every 100 palestinians killed, 7 israelis are killed. That's not enough evidence for you which side is more guilty? And it's Israeli soldiers working for their government who kill the palestinians, not Israeli suicide bombers. So if a suicide bomber is a terrorist, why aren't the Israeli soldiers? Their government is corrupt and racist to palestinians Arabs, and Muslims. They see themselves as superior to the everyone. That's why Israel must be wiped off the map. Give the land back to the palestinians and get out. And just for the record, suicide bombers end up killing themselves too, so justice has been served to them. Don't take it out on Palestinian children. [quote name='Harry']Also good job on quoting an Anti-American news source that "shows" a palestinian boy being killed (even though there's no blood anywhere).[/quote]You didn't see blood huh? The image quality was pretty bad so you wouldn't be able to see it. If you read the article, you would know how it ended up being video taped. I looked through the website and I don't see anything Anti American. What the hell are you trying to prove? "Oh it's Egyptian, which is Arabic which MUST be anti-American". Sorry you need a better argument there. I become upset when a suicide bomber attacks Israeli civilians. I cried when I read about the holocaust. What about my people? How come no body stands up for their rights? How come no body cries for them?[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boba Fett Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I become upset when a suicide bomber attacks Israeli civilians. I cried when I read about the holocaust. What about my people? How come no body stands up for their rights? How come no body cries for them?[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]It's a little difficult for someone to sympathize with a people that willingly sends it's youth to terrorist summer camps, dresses it's infants in suicide bomber outfits and praises homicide bombers. Such incidents of violence, on both sides, are regrettable. If the Palestinians would stop supporting HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, the PLO and other terrorist groups operating within Gaza and the West Bank, the violence would cease. Israel would have no reason to send troops into those territories and would be eager to negotiate for a new Palestinian state.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Their government is corrupt and racist to palestinians Arabs, and Muslims. They see themselves as superior to the everyone. That's why Israel must be wiped off the map.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]Now that?s racist. Negatively stereotyping an entire people, and advocating genocide is no way to win a logical argument.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']So if a suicide bomber is a terrorist, why aren't the Israeli soldiers?[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green] Israeli soldiers have rules of engagement, and do not attack civilians. In fact, they do their best to avoid civilian casualties. Suicide bombers have no rules of engagement and [b] deliberately target innocent civilians[/b].[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Everybody ignored the statment I made about the highly unequal distribution of resources in the occupied state of Palestine. Why? Because it actually shows the truth?[/COLOR][/quote] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']So the UN has condemed Israel for their crimes against palestinians? Well, don't just stand there! Punish them! MAKE THEM PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES![/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]You completely missed my point about the UN. I stated that the UN is nothing but a joke, because of its incredible anti-Semitism. The UN condemns Israel all the time, but [b]refused to vote on a resolution condemning the killing of Israeli children.[/b] If that doesn?t tell you something about the UN, I don?t know what will.[/color] [QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f] Meanwhile the jewish settlers get 70% of the water while the much larger Palestinian population gets 30%. How is this just in any way? Palestinians have nothing while the Israeli settlers get big, beautiful houses in the most beautiful parts of Palestine. Pools included. They don't even have to pay for it, cause the government does! The Israeli government just invites more and more jews to move to Palestine, hence occupying more and more land and expanding their settlements. But where does the government get all this money? Why diamonds ofcourse! Like I said, those selfish pigs have taken all the wealth of the land for selfselves! In addition, the state of Israel receives funding from a wide variety of western companies. [/COLOR][/QUOTE] [color=green]I laughed when I read that. Israeli?s get free homes, courtesy of diamond exports and western corporations. Right. I would expect that from someone wearing a tinfoil hat, maybe. Not from someone in a debate.[/color] [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Previous Israeli prime ministers like Ehude Barak were a lot nicer than him. Of course he was replaced because the Israelis thought Palestinians should be dealt with more harshly.[/COLOR][/quote] [color=green]Maybe it was because the Israelis were tired of suicide bombings in the streets.[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Harris Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 All right, first of all, let's stop with the "anti-Al-Jazeera=racist idiocy", because that's what it is. You are commiting a logical fallacy known as the Ad Hominem, or attacking someone instead of the idea they have presented. I think Fox News is biased against liberals and Dan Rather is biased against conservatives. Does that mean I'm racist against caucasians? Does this also mean that neither source says anything credible? Of course not. I just take the reports I get from them with a grain of salt. Al-Jazeera reports plenty of true stories. They also publish heavily slanted stories and distorted truths. They air videos of Americans being beheaded. All the people on this thread are saying is that you need to check anything you hear from Al-Jazeera against other sources. And for the record, like others have said, there are plenty of other news sources that are slanted against Israel but have more credibility than Al-Jazeera. My thoughts on the matter are as thus: The U.N. and the Jews were wrong to establish the modern jewish state. So what? That happened long before most of us on this message board were born. We can go back and argue about who has a right to the land all we want, but it is irrelevant. The jews are there now. The palestinians are there now. And for Palestinians to attack Israelies that were not EVEN BORN YET when the atrocities you speak of occured is downright evil. Now, supposed Israeli attacks on civilians simply do not exist. Israel does not simply attack civilians, they make targeted attacks against militants and militant leaders. Some times civilians get killed by accident. Is this wrong? Certainly. The place is a mess. There is no clear right or wrong side, but what is clear is that if there were no suicide attacks, Israel would have no justification for attacking palestine, and the international community would be much more in favor of palestine. As it is, things seem to go in a cycle of Palestinian suicide bombers killing civilians, another suicide bomber attacks civilians, then Israel launches a targeted assault on militants. The palestinians swear vengeance and the cycle starts over again. No side is entirely without blame in this, and until they both recognize that the matter will never be settled 'once and for all.' Origionally posted by Chabichou: "That's why Israel must be wiped off the map. " O.k. I went back to reread your post, and caught that. It's that attitude that is the root of the problem. We don't like the other people on this little strip of land, so we will wipe them all out. That sort of attitude leads people to strap on bombs and head into israeli bus stations. You talk about how oppressed the palestinians are, because all people groups deserve dignity, then you say a racist and militant thing like that. Idiocy. Is that an idea you got from 'unbiased' Al-Jazeera? 'Wipe Israel off the map'. Yep. Those are the words of peace and reconcilliation right there :rolleyes: You don't want justice and you don't want peace if you believe the best way to deal with a people group you don't care for is to 'wipe them off the map'. Shame on you, Chabichou. You should know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 [COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Xander Harris]Origionally posted by Chabichou: "That's why Israel must be wiped off the map. " O.k. I went back to reread your post, and caught that. It's that attitude that is the root of the problem. We don't like the other people on this little strip of land, so we will wipe them all out. That sort of attitude leads people to strap on bombs and head into israeli bus stations. You talk about how oppressed the palestinians are, because all people groups deserve dignity, then you say a racist and militant thing like that. Idiocy. Is that an idea you got from 'unbiased' Al-Jazeera? 'Wipe Israel off the map'. Yep. Those are the words of peace and reconcilliation right there :rolleyes: You don't want justice and you don't want peace if you believe the best way to deal with a people group you don't care for is to 'wipe them off the map'. Shame on you, Chabichou. You should know better.[/QUOTE]I've been slighly misunderstood. I didn't mean kill off Israelis by that. I meant Israel should be renamed Palestine. The state itself should be wiped off the map. Literally. You know what I mean? Like looking in an atlas and seeing the word "Palestine" instead of "Israel". I think I misused the expression "wiped off the map". I apoligize.[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasil Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 [quote name='Chabichou']What the hell do palestinians have to do with Turks?[/quote] HC already spelled it out for you, but I'll repeat what he said, just so you'll see it. Turks=ancient Palestinians, if I'm reading HC's post correctly. The Jews were living there, oppressed by the Turks (ancient Palestinians). The Jews rose up against them, [i]fought for their independence from an oppressive foreign regime[/i] (the Turks--ancient Palestinians). If you want to talk who was there first, the Jews were, and the Turks (ancient Palestinians) were the ones butting in. At least, that's what I read HC's post as. [QUOTE]Since when did every Arabic or Muslim website become biased? See, there's already racism right there![/QUOTE] Ah, [i]hell no[/i]. Don't pull that crap. HC specifically said "your source." He was referring to the [i]one[/i] site you quoted as your support. In the portion of his post that you quoted, he only made mention of that [i]one[/i] source, hence why he did not use the plural form of the word ("sources"). Now, to re-iterate what Xander has said so eloquently, taking the news reports from Al Jazeera and various Middle Eastern news broadcasts with a grain of salt, and being aware that there's a heavy, heavy slant there, just like in American mass media, and understanding that you're not going to get the truth from Al Jazeera (which, incidentally, could be considered an Islamic Extremist broadcasting station), is not--repeat [i]is not[/i]--being racist in any way whatsoever, and to accuse those critical or cynical of Arabic or Muslim websites of being racist is to be a complete and utter fool. [QUOTE]When Galelio presented the heliocentric model of the solar system, he was continuously mocked and I think he was even jailed.[/QUOTE] You do not equal Galileo. [QUOTE]People can be so ignorant.[/QUOTE] Pot. Kettle. Black. [QUOTE]I just don't understand how so many people can ignore the atrocities that happen to palestinians.[/QUOTE] Funny, I just don't understand how some people can ignore the atrocities that are [i]committed[/i] by Palestinians. [QUOTE]No body ever has sympathy for them.[/QUOTE] With the ranting and vitriol we see from you, I wonder why. [QUOTE]For every 100 palestinians killed, 7 israelis are killed. That's not enough evidence for you which side is more guilty?[/QUOTE] Do you have independent, international facts to support this ratio, or do you only have Anti-Western or Pro-Extremist sites to quote? [QUOTE]And it's Israeli soldiers working for their government who kill the palestinians, not Israeli suicide bombers.[/QUOTE] And it's [i]both[/i] Palestinian suicide bombers and soldiers working for their government who kill the Israelis. [QUOTE]So if a suicide bomber is a terrorist, why aren't the Israeli soldiers?[/QUOTE] Why aren't the Palestinian soldiers? [QUOTE]Their government is corrupt and racist to palestinians Arabs, and Muslims. They see themselves as superior to the everyone.[/QUOTE] And Arafat's administration was squeaky clean? In his refusal to give any real consideration to peace solutions, or his refusal to take any type of pro-active role in minimizing attacks--I think it's common understanding that he was funding and encouraging them--how is Arafat not implying that he feels the Palestinians are superior to everyone? [QUOTE]That's why Israel must be wiped off the map.[/QUOTE] And if you were to talk to Israelis, they'd say the same thing about Palestine. Odd, don't you think? [QUOTE]And just for the record, suicide bombers end up killing themselves too, so justice has been served to them. Don't take it out on Palestinian children.[/QUOTE] Suicide does not equal justice. [QUOTE]I looked through the website and I don't see anything Anti American. What the hell are you trying to prove? "Oh it's Egyptian, which is Arabic which MUST be anti-American".[/QUOTE] I'd suggest you're ignoring it, convincing yourself it's not there, or that you just don't want to see it. [QUOTE]Sorry you need a better argument there.[/QUOTE] Sorry, but you need a better argument there. [quote]What about my people? How come no body stands up for their rights? How come no body cries for them?[/QUOTE] Because of people like you, who just rant and rant and rant, with little to no regard for common sense and reason, that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Harris Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I've been slighly misunderstood. I didn't mean kill off Israelis by that. I meant Israel should be renamed Palestine. The state itself should be wiped off the map. Literally. You know what I mean? Like looking in an atlas and seeing the word "Palestine" instead of "Israel". I think I misused the expression "wiped off the map". I apoligize.[/COLOR][/quote] Ah, o.k then. So you are saying that the palestinians should be in charge? That just replaces one ethnic ruling class with another. Or are you saying the two people groups should just get along and make one 'palestine'? If so, then I think that's an admirable idea, but would be terribly difficult to execute. Neither side will want to give up any power to the other, and the Israelies would not be happy about the idea of changing their countries name. I think the idea of giving the palestinians their own state is probably the most doable at the moment, although it could also be setting up for an all-out Israeli-palestinian war. My solution? We give one side or the other the uninhabited parts of North Dakota, and they all move there to live. Problem solved ;) (just joking, those of you who live in ND...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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