Israel and Palestine: Lets resolve this once and for all people...

[James]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1]I do see what you're saying, but in the end, religion is subjective not quantitative. Should anyone 'own' a national monument, and be able to forbid others from seeing it? No. It is the same with something like this...nobody can truly have a complete claim over it due to the fact [i]that both sides value it[/i'], and they cannot refute the other sides claim to it. Which is why The Gaza Strip / West bank should be an international zone, similar to the principle of 'international waters'.[/size][/quote]

[color=#707875]The problem is that, in Israel, the polls suggest that the majority of Israelis would like to draw back to the previously-established borders and provide both the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestineans for their own sovereign state.

Unfortunately, peace is marred by religious extremists on both sides. On the Palestinean side, you have groups who are not only unwilling to compromise whatsoever, but who would like to completely eracidate Israel.

On the Israeli side, you have religious extremists who believe that Israel has a divine right to exist and that there should be no compromises on that side, even if those compromises would secure peace.

So this is the problem. Both sides feature a mainstream who want peace and who are prepared to make concessions. But both sides also feature insanely vocal (and active) minorities who will do anything to prevent the other side from gaining ground.

At its heart, this is what makes the situation so difficult.

The only other thing I will add is that the media is far too biased in favor of Israel. The Israeli military checkpoints are frequently scenes of totally unnecessary humiliation and degredation. And some Palestinean towns are literally caged by metal wiring, which creates significant divisions (and which makes travel and access very difficult for regular people).

It's very unfortunate. Both sides are really equally at fault, in my view. Palestinean terrorists are responsible for terrible and totally unnecessary acts of violence against innocents -- acts that ultimately [i]hurt the cause of their own people[/i].

And on the other side, you have some severe oppression in various places, at the hands of the Israeli military. Obviously Israel has a right to exist and to defend herself, I think only extremists would deny that. However, Israel frequently makes the problem worse by simply allowing various of its officers to publicly humiliate and degrade average Palestinean people -- people who are simply taking their kids to school or travelling to their job.

If there was ever a case to demonstrate the dangers of religious fundamentalism, this conflict would have to be it. But it also demonstrates the difficulty of overcoming such fundamentalism, even if overcoming it would result in a lasting peace.[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]Very well said James. ^_^ I'm glad to know at least someone agrees that normal palestinian civilians are being mistreated. Many member here were actually saying it was okay to hurt them simply because there are some radical palestinians among them who target Israeli civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right and no one should disagree with that.[/COLOR]

[DeathBug]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Very well said James. ^_^ I'm glad to know at least someone agrees that normal palestinian civilians are being mistreated. Many member here were actually saying it was okay to hurt them simply because there are some radical palestinians among them who target Israeli civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right and no one should disagree with that.[/COLOR][/quote]


While I agree with much of what James said (Except regarding media bias; I've never seen anything in favor of Isreal in the media), I'm wondering why you're agreeing. I mean, he also said Isreal has a right to exist, which is the exact opposite of your point.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm just curious.

[James]

[QUOTE=DeathBug]While I agree with much of what James said (Except regarding media bias; I've never seen anything in favor of Isreal in the media), I'm wondering why you're agreeing. I mean, he also said Isreal has a right to exist, which is the exact opposite of your point.

[/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]Just to mention the point about media bias; it depends what you're watching.

Networks like BBC tend to be slightly more pro-Palestinean, while networks like Fox are heavily pro-Israel.

I think that the key to observing this situation is to recognize where the bias can be found. If you [i]only[/i] watch Fox, for example, you'll be coming away with a heavily biased viewpoint on this issue. But if you [i]only[/i] watch BBC, you'll also come away with a viewpoint that doesn't reflect the legitimate points on the Israeli side of the equation.

The only network I've found that seems to deal with the issue pretty evenly, is Sky News Australia. They aren't always unbiased, but on this issue they've had a pretty wide spread of programming, which is nice to see.[/color]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='James][color=#707875']The only network I've found that seems to deal with the issue pretty evenly, is Sky News Australia. They aren't always unbiased, but on this issue they've had a pretty wide spread of programming, which is nice to see.[/color][/quote]

[color=green]As far as unbiased news sources go, the best I've found in the states in CSpan. If you can avoid falling asleep, it's the station to watch for completely unbiased reporting of the facts. Completely lacking commentary, it's a great source for hard facts.[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]But what would extremists do if both sides formally withdrew all forces from the Gaza Strip / West Bank?

Go and blow up the other side, who doesn't own the land either? Blow up their own precious, god-given side?

What would they do? As far as I can see it, nothing. Which is what we want them doing. The majority of people want peace. Surely the Governments are mostly free from radicals? Therefore, pushing through a quick withdrawal should not be a terrible problem?

Obviously, this is simplified beyond belief. But at the same time, doesn't it make sense?[/size]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]It's late at night, I'll probably ammend this tomorrow, I haven't even started looking up resources because it's late at night but I just wanted to point something out:

On this last page mostly, this is what I've been hearing. Most of the people in Israel/Palestine want Peace. But there's a small few on both sides who don't want peace. And because of those small few, there IS no peace, and there cannot be any peace. In the world of logic, this make no sense, but obviously, in real time, it makes perfect sense because hardly anything is every logical.

I don't think that a peaceful solution to this problem will ever be supported by absolutely everyone on every side, and that if the majority of the people [b]want[/b] peace, then negotiations need to resume regardless of what those crazy minorities say.

But if the ultimate goal is [b]not[/b] peace, then by all means keep on fighting until every single one of the people in that area is dead. Either that, or until some crazy person goes ahead and nukes the whole place, which is the same thing in less time.

By the way, everyone has been saying Arafat was [b]basically[/b] (which means the following is a bit oversimplified but gets the point across) a war-hungry leader. Which he was (whoever gave him that Nobel prize deserves to be shot). I might be entirely wrong about this, but wasn't Sharon a bit war-hungry leader, too? If the answer to that is yes, then that leads me back to my original point: that everyone seems to want/believe that the Israelis and Palestinians will continue fighting until there's no one left.

If the answer to that war-hungry leader question is no, then you can ignore the last paragraph. Terribly sorry. ^^;;

P.S.: Lady_Rin: I read an article somewhere, I think it was National Geographic for Kids, a couple years ago. It was about a school in Israel/Palestine that has Palestinian and Israeli students, and each classroom has two teachers - one from each side of the conflict. The students must know both languages (arabic and Hebrew), and Palestinian students who have become friends with Israeli students, or vice versa, visit the house of their friend to come over and play, etc. I thought that school was really cool, and that there needs to be more of those in the region. ^_^[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]But what would extremists do if both sides formally withdrew all forces from the Gaza Strip / West Bank?

Go and blow up the other side, who doesn't own the land either? Blow up their own precious, god-given side?

What would they do? As far as I can see it, nothing. Which is what we want them doing. The majority of people want peace. Surely the Governments are mostly free from radicals? Therefore, pushing through a quick withdrawal should not be a terrible problem?

Obviously, this is simplified beyond belief. But at the same time, doesn't it make sense?[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]The problem is that the extremists on both sides aren't going to be happy with any settlement.

On the Palestinean side, groups like HAMAS will oppose anything that doesn't involve the 1967 borders, a right of return for refugees and Jerusalem as the national capital of Palestine. Of those things, Jerusalem is probably the most touchy subject -- it obviously has massive religious significance to both groups and Israel does not want to give any of it up (there was even a suggestion that the city could be divided in half, with each side being given to each country, but as far as I know, Israel rejected that proposal).

On the Israeli side, you have extremists who are in support of settlements and the expansion of those settlements. Don't forget that Prime Minister Rabin was killed not by a Palestinean extremist, but by an Israeli extremist, as a result of his movement toward peace.

So, let's say that Israel completely disengages from the Palestinean areas (which they should do, without question). That's only part of the problem.

For one thing, you need a solid Palestinean governing body that can deploy security services in those areas, to maintain order. Israel has, as far as I know, largely destroyed the Palestinean police force. So the Palestineans [i]can't[/i] get their house in order, at least not at the moment.

By the same token, any Palestinean government that is seen as making compromises would face a direct conflict with groups like HAMAS -- in other words, there would be a significant threat of civil war in Palestine.

In addition to the territorial issues surrounding Gaza and the West Bank, you still have the highly tough and controversial issue of Jerusalem. I simply don't know how that will be resolved, since both sides are extremely passionate about it.

One thing is clear though -- compromise is needed on both sides. Palestine is unlikely to get [i]everything[/i] it desires, but it [i]is[/i] likely to get a pretty darn good percentage of what it wants, as long as it makes the diplomatic effort. Israel is also unlikely to be able to secure peace without painful compromise (ie: total dismantlement of settlements). But there is really no other way. Compromise is the only chance for success.

So yeah. Again, we're only lightly brushing over the surface here. There are just so many smaller and more specific issues that act as roadblocks. This is why the problem has never been solved; it's highly, highly complex.[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I know there is a deeply-rooted enmity between these two countries [or, some of the people] but if someone, hypothetically, merged these two countries, then what would happen? If there was no border between Israel and Pakistan? I can't imagine a mass movement of people, but a free flow between the two countries...would that be enough to appease them?

I fully acknowledge the limits of the imagination that I am pushing. I doubt such a maneouvre could be pulled off. But, what if they could do that? Would it stand a chance of working? This way, both sides make the same compromise.

I don't know. I am no politico-person, and perhaps I am just rambling. As a hypothetical though, could it work?[/size]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1'] If there was no border between Israel and Pakistan? I can't imagine a mass movement of people, but a free flow between the two countries...would that be enough to appease them?[/size][/quote]

[color=green]Israel and where?

Jordan or "Palestine" perhaps?[/color]

[James]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]I know there is a deeply-rooted enmity between these two countries [or, some of the people] but if someone, hypothetically, merged these two countries, then what would happen? If there was no border between Israel and Pakistan? I can't imagine a mass movement of people, but a free flow between the two countries...would that be enough to appease them?

I fully acknowledge the limits of the imagination that I am pushing. I doubt such a maneouvre could be pulled off. But, what if they could do that? Would it stand a chance of working? This way, both sides make the same compromise.

I don't know. I am no politico-person, and perhaps I am just rambling. As a hypothetical though, could it work?[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=#707875]A free flow would probably make matters worse. If you eliminate the border, you're basically merging the countries. And that's what everyone is trying to [i]avoid[/i]. I mean, if that's what the goal was, then it'd be totally okay for Israel to colonize the Palestinean territories and just absorb them.

The goal is instead to have two distinctly seperate nation states, where the West Bank and Gaza strip would ideally be within Palestine's national borders. I think most people agree to that concept, but the devil is in the details (like Jerusalem, refugees and so on).

[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#004A6F][QUOTE=DeathBug]While I agree with much of what James said (Except regarding media bias; I've never seen anything in favor of Isreal in the media), I'm wondering why you're agreeing. I mean, he also said Isreal has a right to exist, which is the exact opposite of your point.

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm just curious.[/QUOTE]Ok, you're right, the only thing I don't agree with is Israel's right to exist because it is illegally occupying palestinian land. Whatever anyone says, I will always believe that. Meanwhile, one user says he'll get me a tinfoil hat for christmas, but no, I'm not crazy. I'm not anti-Jewish or anti-American either, but I do believe both of the Israeli and American governments are corrupt. But other than that, I agree with James. I just didn't feel like saying too much anymore, becasue I've decided to leave the discussion.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[James]

[color=#707875]The only problem with the "Israel has no right to exist" argument is that it's totally irrelevant at this point.

The fact is, Israel is [i]there[/i]. It exists. I think it's pretty clear that Israel exists largely through colonization/occupation of land that it does not own, but that point is sort of moot at the moment.

Since Israel does exist, the only option is to find a plan that will deliver peace to all concerned. Since Israel does actually exist, any suggestion that it has no right to exist is automatically redundant, since there is nothing anyone can (or would want to) do about that at this point in time. It's a matter of dealing with the hand you're given.[/color]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Chabichou][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#004A6F] Meanwhile, one user says he'll get me a tinfoil hat for christmas, but no, I'm not crazy.[/COLOR'][/FONT][/quote]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f] Palestinians have nothing while the Israeli settlers get big, beautiful houses in the most beautiful parts of Palestine. Pools included. They don't even have to pay for it, cause the government does! The Israeli government just invites more and more jews to move to Palestine, hence occupying more and more land and expanding their settlements. But where does the government get all this money? Why diamonds ofcourse! Like I said, those selfish pigs have taken all the wealth of the land for selfselves! In addition, the state of Israel receives funding from a wide variety of western companies. Disney included.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=green]Perhaps just abysmally informed.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#004A6F] I'm not anti-Jewish or anti-American either, but I do believe both of the Israeli and American governments are corrupt.[/COLOR'][/FONT][/quote]

[color=green]Every government, worldwide, has problems with corruption. Overall, I'd say that the Israeli and American governments are better than most in this regard.

By comparison to the PA, both are almost saintly. The Palestinian Authority, even out from Arafat's shadow, is probably one of the most corrupt governing bodies currently in existence.[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]In regards to 'illegal occupation' would it be fair to say that most modern countries were formed that way? Picture the Brits marching into America and Australia...Rome conquering vast tracts of land.

Thats expansion for you.[/size]

[Tigervx]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=Teal]As stated already in the thread, religious extremist are playing a deadly role in this conflict. We all know about the Muslim religious leaders urging their holy warrior to war, but the Jewish Rabbi's aren't innocent either. I remember during the pullout of the Gaza strip, Religious leaders of Israel urged soldiers to refuse the order and remain in the Gaza strip.

Another problem is that this is no longer about religion, this is a blood feud. So many have died on both sides, its more about revenge now then anything else. I remember in one HBO documentary that documented a boy living in Palestine. He used to be a normal kid, but after his friend was shot in the head by an Israeli soldier (Course, he threw a grenade at them so he's not innocent), he joined a terror group and helped smuggle supplies to them. This is a huge problem, since the more people die, the more people who will want revenge for them.

Seeing these problems, I can't actually find a way to resolve this. Even if everything is resorted to the way it should be, there will still be radical groups out there willing to carry on the holy war on both sides and terror will continue. And tension with Arabs and Jews will remain, the Jews were never really welcomed there in the first place (Their war f Independence started I think less then 48 hours after the country was declared.) People talk about solutions, but those could only work in a perfect war. There will always be groups angry with their dead families, angry with destroyed homes, willing to carry on a cause that should be resolved by these solutions.
[/COLOR][/FONT]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]]I know I said I was leaving this discussion, but I figured I'd leave these stats. We'll see which side is more guilty......

[url]http://btselem.org/English/Statistics/Al_Aqsa_Fatalities_Tables.asp[/url]

[url]http://btselem.org/English/Obstructing_Medical_Treatment/Testimonies.asp[/url]

Hey, this site is totally unbiased. It's in hebrew annd arabic and english. Just presenting the facts. :) [/COLOR]

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]]I know I said I was leaving this discussion, but I figured I'd leave these stats. We'll see which side is more guilty......

[url]http://btselem.org/English/Statistics/Al_Aqsa_Fatalities_Tables.asp[/url]

[url]http://btselem.org/English/Obstructing_Medical_Treatment/Testimonies.asp[/url]

Hey, this site is totally unbiased. It's in hebrew annd arabic and english. Just presenting the facts. :) [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Yeah, Israel is not without fault in this conflict. I just heard a presentation in speech class about the Israel situation... I'm gonna have to write something up about how Christian Zionism is an unbiblical load of horse manure in MyO one of these days... not really appropriate for this thread, though, methinks.

[Guest Garelock]

I mean really, this is the point I'm trying to get to both the Israeli and Palestinian movements.

THIS CONFLICT HAS GONE ON FOR SOME LAND!

I mean REALLY, is it THAT serious?! It's just a bunch of dirt, stupids animals and idiotic people! And you're willing to DIE for all this? I remember a guy who was paralyzed from the neck down and in a wheel chair getting blown to bits by a US issued missile that was a launched from a US Apache helicopter; yes, the United States always trades arms with Israel. It's stuff like that which makes me say that this conflict is stupid, it's old and it's pretty much pointless.

The fact is, they could simply SHARE the land. I mean, wouldn't that make more sense? That way, it wouldn't belong to anyone and they could live in peace then. But NOOOOO they want to blow up school buses, shoot people, make innocent children suffer and so on and so forth. What I propose is that the Israeli and Palestinian ideals be completely rejected and a new treaty formed.

After all, isn't that what we all want? Peace?

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Garelock']I mean REALLY, is it THAT serious?! It's just a bunch of dirt, stupids animals and idiotic people![/quote]
Then lets give America to Muslim fanatics. I mean, it's only land.

And if you'd read the rest of this thread, you'd realise that such solutions have already been broached...and generally discarded.[/size]

[Guest Garelock]

I'm not saying that we should igive America to the Muslim faith but what I am saying is that land should be shared. You neglected to get that point in my previous reply. I don't think it's right to shoot someone over some Earth. Really, would YOU kill me over something like this?

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Garelock']I'm not saying that we should igive America to the Muslim faith but what I am saying is that land should be shared. You neglected to get that point in my previous reply. I don't think it's right to shoot someone over some Earth. Really, would YOU kill me over something like this?[/quote]

Israel exists, British Palestine existed, The Ottoman Empire existed, the Mamluk sultanage existed... Arab Palestine was never a state....

It doesn't matter.. Palestinians DO live in Israel, they were never displaced by the Jews, and they have all of the same rights as JEWISH ISRAELIS! They can vote, own as much land as the jewish residents, and participate in the government. Muslims can join the IDF! This whole war of "reclamation" is just an excuse for genocide. If you look closely, almost all of IDF's "attacks" were retaliatory.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Garelock']I'm not saying that we should igive America to the Muslim faith but what I am saying is that land should be shared. You neglected to get that point in my previous reply. I don't think it's right to shoot someone over some Earth. Really, would YOU kill me over something like this?[/quote]
Oh, sure, but seriously. Why not rename the country Muslimia, put radicals in charge. But, as long as they let you live there as well.

Sorry. I am not referring in any derogatory manner to Muslims, just using that as an example.

And as I said, if you'd read some of the rest of this thread, you'd realise why this answer is impractical, as I did.

[quote name='James']A free flow would probably make matters worse. If you eliminate the border, you're basically merging the countries. And that's what everyone is trying to avoid. I mean, if that's what the goal was, then it'd be totally okay for Israel to colonize the Palestinean territories and just absorb them.[/quote]

The radicals on both sides would not accept it, as James pointed out.

A person doesn't shoot another person for land, a country does.[/size]

[Zeta]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']A person doesn't shoot another person for land, a country does.[/size][/quote]


Isn't it not the same thing? The ruler of the country wants it done, so he has others do it for him. It isn't the country by itself. The people themselves may not even want to do it. But they do it anyways because it is their leader. So wouldn't it technically(sp) be the ruler himself shooting, just through someone else?

Now onto a point that was brought up by the creater of the thread. He/she said something along the lines of "Israelis occupying Palestinian lands." Who say is is their land? Sure their religion says that, but as does that for the Jews.

Why do [i]Palestinians[/i] deserve the land and not the Jews? Who says they have top priority. Wasn't it settled that the Jews were their first? So how does that say the Jews are illegally living on Palestinian lands when it wasn't theirs in the first place?

*shrug* I think my facts are straight, will have to re-read the thread to make sure.


Garelock: Aren't all wars really fought over land anyways? I don't see why it seems like a big surprise to you. If not for land, why else would one go to war? Everyone wants more than what they have. It will always be that way. And the only reason to truly go to war to get more of something is land. I mean, you aren't going to go to war with a country because they have more pillows and only take the pillows.

*shrug* I would kill you over something like this.

[Guest Garelock]

That was not my point. My point was that it DOESN'T have to be that way. People CAN live in peace but people simply choose NOT to live in peace. That's why world peace and non-violent relations is impossible. I wish only that people didn't fight over land. No ones life is worth a piece of land in my opinion.

Call me crazy but I value someone's life over a piece of dirt anyday...