Retribution Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 I think the problem has already been stated too many times, and the only solutions to this are: 1) Nuke the place (WRONG!) 2) Let the two countries duke it out (MAYBE) 3) Pray a strong leader comes and breaks the cycle. Someone who everyone wants to follow. (BEST!) Right now, we're siding more on #2, but #3 is the best option. Now, we have to wait for a strong political leader. *twiddles thumbs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [size=1]Zeta, I view a country as an entity. Countries have images, lol, countries have percieved personalities. What is a country of not a living thing? People don't look up to a ruler. They look up to a country, something that is greater than the collective. Rulers just happen to be the mouth-piece of countries. You don't say 'and today Charon shot dead 15 Palestinian civilians'. Israel, or Israeli's did. If you want to be technical about it, then you're going completely the wrong way by saying the ruler did it, because technically the soldier did it. But, my point was that [B]people[/B] do not shoot each other over land, it is [B]countries[/B] who do that. Countries as a whole. [quote name='Zeta']Now onto a point that was brought up by the creater of the thread. He/she said something along the lines of "Israelis occupying Palestinian lands." Who say is is their land? Sure their religion says that, but as does that for the Jews.[/quote] Palestinians were there first. And Altron, a leader isn't going to unite both sides. The majority of both sides want piece, but it is the radical minority who don't, and they're the problem.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Le Baron [QUOTE]The Kan?aan never existed under any sovereignty. The Jews lived in Israel, founded and populated Jerusalem, and the surrounding settlements, and lived there until the Dia Spora. The Romans, or their ?lords? as you have claimed even recognized the fact that the land was Jewish, and owned by the Jews![/QUOTE] Drix said that I believe The I must have interpreted that wrong. From my understanding, that says that the Jews were there first. *shrug* Yes the soldier did the killing. But would he have if the ruler hadn't of told him/her to do so? No they wouldn't. It is the ruler killing the people, his soldiers as his medium. Again, aren't countries just people? Yes. But would they attack another country for land out of the blue? No. The leader would have to tell them to, even if they do not want to or not. As said above. The soldier is just the rulers medium. That is how I view it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [size=1][quote]It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of a Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The Palestinian National Charter adopted by the PLO states this fact in the first article[/quote] You're quite right. My bad. Some other interesting information though... [quote]Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured. This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.[/quote] I think this site is a tiny bit biased, because I can find two flaws in this theory. 1) The Israeli army was not large enough to be able to afford to spread itself out over new land, and 2) they had what they wanted...Jereusalem and the West Bank. However, this does show an attempt to 'reconciliate', but flaws can be found. I still wonder why control of West Bank / Gaza STrip and Jereusalem cannot be handed over to the UN. Perhaps I am looking at this too simplistically, but wouldn't that help to solve this whole problem?[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Well the UN sucks iny my mind. That would again be like what James said I believe. I believe it was you who said that it should just be an international place? With the areas under UN control it would be the same thing. With that in place, I myself believe that there would be much more problems. The Israelis and the Palestinians will still continue to fight over the land, because each wants it. In my mind I think the Palestinians should just give it a break. Accept what they have and move on. They had their chance and blew it. Going about it the way they are won't make matters any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted December 12, 2004 Author Share Posted December 12, 2004 [COLOR="#004a6f"][quote name='Zeta']In my mind I think the Palestinians should just give it a break. Accept what they have and move on. They had their chance and blew it. Going about it the way they are won't make matters any better.[/quote]Unfortunately, they don't have much now, do they? Israel has demolished at least 612 homes since 2001 (2 500 since 1988), displacing an estimated 16 000 people, killed 3 024 people, including 603 minors since September 2000, injured 28 215 individuals (7528 by live ammunition) since September 2000,and left 60 per cent of Palestinians below the poverty line; almost 2.5 million palestinians live on under US$2 per day. I think if any of us were living under $2 a day, while people on the other side of the country who are occupying a land we used to live in live in luxury, we would fight for our rights, wouldn't you agree?[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 They had their chance when Clinton was our President? Not quite sure. Why didn't they take what they had at the time? Had they done that, they wouldn't have lost all that they have lost now. They brought this upon themselves. Why do they bomb streets? To get their point across? Sure it tells the Israeli's they want their own country, but it doesn't do them any good. The Israeli's retaliate to protect their rights. The peoples right not to be harmed. Maybe if they stopped sending their youth and everyone else out to bomb the Israeli's they could get somewhere. I don't see how that is going to help their cause. Maybe just stop with all the terrorist attacks and actually [i]talk[/i], like civilized people do, rather than force what they want. I understand what you are saying yes, but I'm still not buying that they deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 [size=1]There was never any country called Palestine. It has never existed. And, if you'd care to take a look at a world map showing the Arab countries and Israel, you'd see that Israel has 1/650th of the land in that region. I'd say the 'Palestinians' [Arabs, since there was never a Palestine] have an awful lot more than the Israeli's, wouldn't you? I'm not supporting Israel over Palestine or vice versa. I'm just saying. By right of occupation, any country may have a section of land. And other countries have a right to want to take that land from them. Thats how it always used to be, but now people are complaining about it. I don't support the ongoing stupidity, but I'm prepared to accept the realities of the situation.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted December 12, 2004 Author Share Posted December 12, 2004 [COLOR="#004a6f"][quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1]There was never any country called Palestine. It has never existed. And, if you'd care to take a look at a world map showing the Arab countries and Israel, you'd see that Israel has 1/650th of the land in that region. I'd say the 'Palestinians' [Arabs, since there was never a Palestine'] have an awful lot more than the Israeli's, wouldn't you?[/size][/quote]I meant what the palestinians who are living in Israel have right now. So what if the Arabs have more land than the Jews? Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there were Arabs living in Palestine, or whatever you want to call it, and alot of them were kicked out of their homes. So what if the Jews were there 2000 years ago? These Palestinians, or Arabs as you want to call them have no citizenship. They have been left stateless in a world than defines you by your state. All the Jews who came and occupied the land in 1948 had a state to which they belonged. I'm a palestinian, but I was born in Saudi Arabia. When I came to Canada, my passport didn't say I was Saudi, it said I was palestinian. So where is my country? If I didn't have my Canadian citizenship, I wouldn't be allowed in Israel because I'm palestinian. So what am I? How can you say that palestine never exisited, if I'm clearly defined as a Palestinian?[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heezay Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 [quote name='Zeta'] They brought this upon themselves. Why do they bomb streets? To get their point across? [/quote] Yeah? So they shouldn't complain? Someone like you could say that America brought September 11th upon itself, because of their ignorant and arrogant attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 I know we brought September 11th onto ourselves. I never said we didn't deserve it at all, lol. Friends and I have always been saying we had something coming our way. I never said they shouldn't complain. I said they should go about their problems in a civilized way, not by sending suicide bombers into a market. :rolleyes: Chabichou, you still haven't said why you believe the Palestinians deserve the land. Why do they deserve it and the Israeli's don't? Why do you feel that everything should go to the Palestinians and leave the Israeli's nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heezay Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 [QUOTE=Zeta]. I said they should go about their problems in a civilized way, not by sending suicide bombers into a market. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] And just because the Israeli army uses bullets instead of bombs to kill random people, that makes [I]them[/I] civilized? What the hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 [quote name='Heezay]And just because the Israeli army uses bullets instead of bombs to kill random people, that makes [I]them[/I'] civilized? What the hell?[/quote] This immediately reminded me of [i]The Princess Bride[/i]... [b]Fezzik:[/b] We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike. No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone. [b]Westley:[/b] You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people? ~Dagger~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adahn Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 [quote name='Zeta']I know we brought September 11th onto ourselves. I never said we didn't deserve it at all, lol. Friends and I have always been saying we had something coming our way.[/quote] [font=Courier New][size=2][color=blue]Are you trying to say that 'we' deserved to have 'our' fathers/mothers/husbands/wives murdered for something 'we' did? I would think about what you just said if I were you. You're not American. Hell, after saying something like that, you're not even human.[/color][/size][/font] [font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]As for Israel/Palestine, both sides have an honest claim to the land. The solution is simple; fight for it. Hey, that's what they're doing! The conflict will be resolved when someone loses. I say let them duke it out on their own, and let the cards fall as they will.[/color][/size][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 [quote name='Heezay]And just because the Israeli army uses bullets instead of bombs to kill random people, that makes [I]them[/I'] civilized? What the hell?[/quote] Well, they don't go into a market and start shooting do they? They do it in self defense if they must. Whereas the Palestinians do it to force what they want. :rolleyes: There is a difference. Adahn...let me see how I should phrase this. I am American first and foremost, and also a human... least I think. o_0 But yes, I stick by what I said. America had something coming to them for so long, it was going to happen eventually. All the attacks to American personel over seas and on the homefront. It was going to happen sooner or later. I would much rather prefer it didn't happen of course. But I just didn't look at it as something that was [i]never[/i] going to happen. *shrug* Take it how you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sara Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 [QUOTE=Dagger IX1]This immediately reminded me of [i]The Princess Bride[/i]... [b]Fezzik:[/b] We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike. No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone. [b]Westley:[/b] You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people? ~Dagger~[/QUOTE][size=1]I was actually just thinking the same thing. Way to go, Dagger. ^_^ I think...I don't know what to believe about who's right and who's wrong--if anyone is. Both sides have killed people, and both sides have lost people--individuals, with [i]lives and friends and families. [/i] I can't imagine living like that, and any thought about who holds what's rights just slips into how sad the whole situation is. You can say whatever you want about the Israelis deserving something, or the Palestinians deserving something, fighting for freedom, fighting for land, causes and rights...but the fact is that you're talking about actual people dying. They should be more than just statistics. the last words I have to say, Sara[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Samedi Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 [size=1][quote name='Chabichou']I meant what the palestinians who are living in Israel have right now. So what if the Arabs have more land than the Jews? Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that there were Arabs living in Palestine, or whatever you want to call it, and alot of them were kicked out of their homes. So what if the Jews were there 2000 years ago? These Palestinians, or Arabs as you want to call them have no citizenship. They have been left stateless in a world than defines you by your state. All the Jews who came and occupied the land in 1948 had a state to which they belonged. I'm a palestinian, but I was born in Saudi Arabia. When I came to Canada, my passport didn't say I was Saudi, it said I was palestinian. So where is my country? If I didn't have my Canadian citizenship, I wouldn't be allowed in Israel because I'm palestinian. So what am I? How can you say that palestine never exisited, if I'm clearly defined as a Palestinian?[/quote] The Palestinians in Israel right now? They [probably] have a home, and they have life. Or, are alive, rather. It might not be much, but if everyone tried harder to cease hostilities, then they'd have what everyone has. Nothing, unless they worked for it. Israeli's have been there for somewhere around 3000 years I believe. That is a fairly decent claim to the land. If they are Arabs, they have a right of citizenship to oither Arabic countries, don't they? How can you be a Palestinian if Palestine has never existed? It's like saying "I'm a Fawajian". The mythical country of Fawaj is my nation. You can't be Fawajian in the same sense you can't be Palestinian. Why don't 'Palestinians' become Israelis, and then you can have a civil war? If you were born in Saudi Arabia, then your passport, indeed your nationality, should be Saudi. Your parents may be nationless Arabs, but you are a Saudi. I don't really support either side. I'm arguing merits of both: playing Devil's Advocate. And, I'd say that Israel has a large claim to the land, but really, it is only your land as long as you rule there. In a technical manner, there is nothing wrong with nationless Arabs taking over and subjugating the Israeli's, and renaming the country Palestine.[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heezay Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 [QUOTE=Zeta]Well, they don't go into a market and start shooting do they? They do it in self defense if they must. Whereas the Palestinians do it to force what they want. :rolleyes: There is a difference. [/QUOTE] Self defense, my ******* ***. Israelis have killed hundreds more Palestinians than vice versa. Nope, they don't walk into a market and start shooting. That would take too much effort. Instead, they roll through the streets in Humvees and pick people off like deer or something. [IMG]http://angrybit.com/random/israeli-soldiers.gif[/IMG] The Israeli catch of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 [quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']Israeli's have been there for somewhere around 3000 years I believe. That is a fairly decent claim to the land. If they are Arabs, they have a right of citizenship to oither Arabic countries, don't they? How can you be a Palestinian if Palestine has never existed? It's like saying "I'm a Fawajian". The mythical country of Fawaj is my nation.[/size][/quote] "Palestine" was created in the 1960s by the USSR. Before that there was no such thing. It was a fabrication for political and economic gain. They took the term from the Romans. Arabs actually entered the region from Saudi Arabia in the 6th century. Prior to that they were confined to the peninsula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted December 13, 2004 Author Share Posted December 13, 2004 [COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Zeta]I know we brought September 11th onto ourselves. I never said we didn't deserve it at all, lol. Friends and I have always been saying we had something coming our way. I never said they shouldn't complain. I said they should go about their problems in a civilized way, not by sending suicide bombers into a market. :rolleyes: Chabichou, you still haven't said why you believe the Palestinians deserve the land. Why do they deserve it and the Israeli's don't? Why do you feel that everything should go to the Palestinians and leave the Israeli's nothing?[/QUOTE]Because, Israelis came in and took property that was already owned by palestinians. The kicked people out of their homes, demolished the homes, and built new homes on top. Sure, it's okay for people to move to other countries. I'm fine with jews moving to land, but they should build their homes where there is [B]free land[/B], not destroy people's homes. These palestinians made a living by farming. Most of them didn't have a postsecondary education, so if their farm is destroyed, the orange and olive trees they grew for so many years destroyed, how can they start a new life? How is this fair to these palestinians? I also doesn't matter that the jews used to live on this land 2000 years ago. Those jews are all dead. Actually, I recently found out that can't even be used as a n argument because the first people to inhabit the land were Arabs around 6000 BC. But that's not the point. [B]The land was an Arab state before the occupation[/B]. Yes, it was called Palestine. I don't know why people keep saying that the state never existed, but it did. There was a state called Palestine. Whether we Arabs gave it that name or not doesn't matter. Sure, I guess we adopted the name the greeks gave it. The land was called Palestine during the Ottoman Empire's rule. It was called palestine during the British mandate. So yes, palestine existed! [quote name='ScirosDarkblade']"Palestine" was created in the 1960s by the USSR. Before that there was no such thing. It was a fabrication for political and economic gain.[/quote]Where did you get that information from? It's totally untrue. You know, my grandparents lived in palestine before the occupation, and the were born even before the 40's. The called they land "palsetine" when they were living in it, so how could the name be made up in the 1960's? The USSR has nothing to do with it. [/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ScirosDarkblade Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Where did you get that information from? It's totally untrue. You know, my grandparents lived in palestine before the occupation, and the were born even before the 40's. The called they land "palsetine" when they were living in it, so how could the name be made up in the 1960's? The USSR has nothing to do with it.[/COLOR][/quote] It was a region, but never a nation. The PLO's inception was 1964. That's like saying that the Caucasus was always a nation. Nope, it's a region. Regions don't have political claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 [QUOTE]Self defense, my ******* ***. Israelis have killed hundreds more Palestinians than vice versa. Nope, they don't walk into a market and start shooting. That would take too much effort. Instead, they roll through the streets in Humvees and pick people off like deer or something.[/QUOTE] Why? Could it possibly be because the Palestinian's march into the market with a bomb strapped to themselves? It doesn't matter if the Israeli's kill more because of something the Palestinians did. If they didn't do it in the first place, the Israeli's wouldn't have. As I said before, it is a no win situation from what I can see. One of them will do something and the other will retaliate, then it will just continue on in a circle. You would thinking driving down the stree would take more effort since in the market everyone is much closer together, therefore one could kill more. Which is what the Palestinians do. I still haven't seen an answer as to why the Israeli's should do anything for the Palestinians if the Palestinians are trying to terrorize and force the Israeli's to do something. When you force someone to do something, the other will resist all the more. As Sciros said, the region was called Palestine, there was no nation. So the land didn't belong to them. The fact that the land belonged to the Jews a couple thousand years ago is still relevant. Those people could have descendents living there right now. Just because the ones living back then are dead, doesn't mean you can throw that fact out of the water. Palestinians could possibly start a new life if they actually decide to do something about it. Rather than sending people off to bomb markets and what not, why not just talk it over. I still don't see how by basically forcing the Israeli's to meet their demands is going to help them. It will only strengthen their resolve to fight back. You can get much farther in life if you sit and talk like civilized people, rather than by barbaric ways. Sorry I just don't agree with people who try to get their way by bombing innocent people. I find it barbaric and don't feel they deserve anything until they start to go about it like civilized people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBZgirl88 Posted December 13, 2004 Author Share Posted December 13, 2004 [COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Zeta']Why? Could it possibly be because the Palestinian's march into the market with a bomb strapped to themselves? It doesn't matter if the Israeli's kill more because of something the Palestinians did. If they didn't do it in the first place, the Israeli's wouldn't have. As I said before, it is a no win situation from what I can see. Palestinians do something, the Israeli's retaliate, then the Palestinians retaliate. It is a never ending cycle. You would thinking driving down the stree would take more effort since in the market everyone is much closer together, therefore one could kill more. Which is what the Palestinians do.[/quote]You know, palestinians are human too. We're talking about all the innocent palestinians that are constantly being killed by the Israeli defense force. It's not as the majority of palestinians strap bombs to themselves and go into markets. Most of them want to live peacely in their country and raise their families. Which is exactly what the Israelis prevent them from doing! The first uprising of the palestinians occured when Israeli soldiers crushed two palestinian men when they were waiting (peacfully) to be let by a check point. See? The Israelis started it. The second uprising occured, when Israeli soldiers simply went into a mosque, I think is was the Al-aquasa mosque in Jeruselum, and killed four people while they were praying. Then they started stepping on the Qurans in the mosque! See, there was peace, and everytime, the Israeli soldiers break it by killing palestinian civilians for no reason at all! The checkpoints, which are supposedly there to protect the Israeli civilians, are major sites for violation of palestinians rights. One wrong move, and they kill you, simple as that. Why do Israeli soldiers shoot at ambulances and try to stall them when somemone injured is inside? And no, they don't just do this when there's a so called terrorist inside. They kill children in cold blood. How about when they force a woman who is in labor to give birth at the checkpoint, instead of letting her cross over to get to a hospital? Several women and their babies have died because they couldn't get to a hospital. The Israeli soldiers have no sense of morals when dealing with palestinians, wether they are innocent civilians or not. If a palestinian didn't do anything wrong, you have no right to kill them.[/COLOR] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeta Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 And that just makes it ok for a Palestinian to run into a crowd with a bomb and kill many more innocent lives? Sure if the Palestinian didn't do anything wrong they have no right to be killed. Tell that to the Palestinians who blow themselves up in a crowd of Israeli's and kills them. Unfortunately I am not as up to do with the happenings going on over there. So I myself haven't heard of any of the Israeli things you said. I'm not saying they didn't happen, just that I haven't heard and don't wish to get myself in a pickle. But as far as we know, there may have been underlying reasons for why they chose what they did. Sure the people may have seemed innocent, but for all we know they could have been actually plotting their next bombing. *shrug* But that doesn't give Palestinians the right to go into a crowded market and blow themselves up, when a good majority of the people could have been trying their best to avoid the entire conflict. This may seem quite rude but I prefer less innocents over more innocents. *shrug* Again, it is just as easy to talk things over. Rather than resort to violence why not just work out something like was tried in the past. But there the Palestinians rejected the idea when they had most if not all of the land they wished for. Greedy people in my opinion. I still see no need for them to have the land if their means to go about it are barbaric. And lets say if they do get all the land they want. Who is to say they won't go and do exactly what the Israeli's did to them, onto the Israeli's who were just kicked out of their home, their land stolen from them. See? It is a no win situation. I prefer the one that doesn't run into a crowd with a bomb. Imagine what the Israeli's could do right now. They could go and destroy every Palestinian man, women, and child for all the suicide bombings. Yet they haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kimo123 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 listen hear i lived in palestine for a year as with my family they brutally beat and shoot at the palestinians even kids and women they are taking over right phly owned land that belonged to the palistanians the should come together like this give jerusalem back to the muslims because that is all we really want the israelis are brutl even to kid that are under 8 they should be evcuatied imeddiatly and whats up with america supplying israel with bombs what abouet israel it is their land god some people sicken me all they want to do is start another world war and it looks like it is coming the arab countrysvs amerca and britian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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