Israel and Palestine: Lets resolve this once and for all people...

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
[url]http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/502/re6.htm[/url]

Why? :( WHY???!!!!

Here is one fact that shows even more atrocities Israel has commited against palestinians.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=green]Too bad Israel didn't kill Mohammed al-Dura. Analysis of the firefight determined Palestinian gunmen shot him by accident. The news article you linked to supports that explanation.

This is yet another "killing" spun by Palestinians to gain sympathy. Just like the massively inflated death tolls after Israeli raids and well-publicized fake funeral processions.[/color]

[URL]http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_dura.php[/URL]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE]So if a suicide bomber is a terrorist, why aren't the Israeli soldiers?[/QUOTE]

Umm... Let me think. Oh yes, I think someone already said that a suicide bomber goes to a crowded bus stop, market place, or any other public gathering, and lets his dead man switch go. Those are terrorists.

An Israeli soldier, while still not a hero, follows [b]rules of engagement[/b], which means they don't seek out crowded bus stops and open fire. They are fighting to get the Palestinians away from them, to try and save lives.

What I think we have here is a vicious cycle. This is how it goes:

Past arguments -> tension -> suicide bombing / flaring tempers -> Israelis defending themselves by attacking back -> Palestinians dying -> children growing up bitter, and some eventually become suicide bombers (loop to suicide bombing step).

Um... Let's see. I think this source at [url]http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html[/url] says that:

[QUOTE] On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 ? perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them ? never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!
[/QUOTE]

You read it. That's my argument.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[quote name='Chabichou']What the hell do palestinians have to do with Turks? I'm not a Turk. In fact, I am closer to the jews in blood than to the Turks. [/quote]

[color=indigo]Until the late fifties there were no ?Palestinians?, the Arabs in that part of the world were called ?Turks?. That is common knowledge. If you are a Muslim with roots from Palestine you would have been called a ?Turk? by the western world seventy years ago. The term Palestine was a politically correct reference that was adopted by the world that carries the Greek and Arabic roots that I discussed before.

The Jews never had a mass exodus from the area that is now Palestine, which I have stated before, really, I am beginning to feel like a broken record. In the twenties, before the emigration of Jews from Europe, the area that is now Israel had a denser Jewish population than Muslim population. The majority of Israel was already Jewish. You cannot carry on a debate when the person you are debating doesn?t know the history of the region more than twenty years back. [/color]


[quote name='Chabichou']Since when did every Arabic or Muslim website become biased? See, there's already racism right there! I remembered the story of that boy and merely looked up his name on Google?[/quote]

[color=indigo]I never said that all Muslim websites are biased, but the one you linked to is. I looked those pictures and that story throughout the BBC website, as well as CNN?s and MSNBC, and I couldn?t find anything. Those pictures don?t really look very authentic.

By the way, you more or less just accused me of being a racist for asking for credibility for a source that you presented. You sited a web page sponsored by Al-Ahram, a news source that is notoriously biased against the western world as a whole and constantly exploits anti-Israeli propaganda. I see no reason to continue a debate when someone is going to brush off the irrefutable history of a nation. In none of my posts have I said that the Israeli?s aren?t equally responsible for the whole mess. However, I think that the Palestinians initiated the whole scenario, and continue to perpetuate the incident. [/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Zeta']Concerning what you said about the suicide bombing and the fact that the Israeli soldiers just went and demolished the house anyways. I see no difference than what the bomber did. He killed many innocent civilians, while the Israeli's just killed one. *shrug* I don't see how the suicide bomber is not to blame for the grandfathers death.[/quote]Are you saying that the old man deserved to die? That is the injustice I'm talking about! How can anyone deny the fact that what the Israeli soldier did was wrong? Meanwhile, I, even being a palestinian agree that Israeli civilians shouldn't be targetted. It doesn't matter that more Israelis died and just one old man died. "Kill one person and it's as if you killed the whole world. Save one person, and it's as if you saved the whole world". The Israeli soldiers don't have to purposely try to make the amount of casualities on both sides equal! But like I said before, there are far more palestinians dying than Israelis, so the soldiers actually go overboard!

Conclusion: The soldier had no right to kill the old man or even demolish the home. Does anyone disagree with this statement?

[QUOTE=Zeta]The reason why Muslims are portrayed in such a bad way is because quite frankly they do it themselves. How many Christians strap bombs on themselves and walk into a crowded street? In the Jewish religion, [i]their[/i] religion, it says the Promised Land is theres. What does that mean? That means they don't believe that it belongs to Muslims. So what are they doing? They are fighting to protect it just as you said Palestinians should. But you don't see Israeli's strapping bombs to themselves, I see Muslims. I know that sounds really harsh. But it is the truth nontheless. Now I'm not saying they don't, but you don't hear about them as often as Muslims.

.....Sorry if this sounds really harsh, I am just stating what I know. You don't hear about Christians, Jews, or others strapping bombs to themselves and going into a crowded street. And I ask you. Why should Islam be favored of Judaism?[/QUOTE]Well actually, people of all religions commit horrible crimes that even go against the teachings of their religion. When a christian person commits a crime, no one ever looks at his religion and blames it. This only happens to muslims. When a muslim person commits a crime, his religion is stated on the news and people think, "Oh, he's muslim, which means this is what his religion is about". That shows the ignorance of western society. Bobba Fett, this is the biasm I am talking about. It's hidden, it's subtle, so it's difficult to detect.

[quote name='Altron]On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 ? perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them ? never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian'] Arabs![/quote]You seem to be treating this as though Arabs were massacreing Jews. This article depicts arabs as the most horrible people. This was just a war fought to get the land back. What's wrong with the palestinians who can't fight to leave temporarily as not to get hurt? For instance, one of my paternal uncles fought in this war. Meanwhile, everyone on my mother's side lives in Jordan right now. Although the majority of the population in jordan is palestinian, these people do not have jordanian citizenship. There is a disctintion between jordanians and palestinians presently. All those palestinians there are just refugees. As for the flags looking nearly identical, there are a whole bunch of flags that have this pattern of balck red green and white. Sudan, for instance. These colors mean something to arabs and that's why they are used so often. As for all this weird stuff about Jordan and Israel being palestine, it was the brithish who divided the arabs into smaller states. The reason we fight so much for the present day Israel is because of the city of Jerusalem, which is important to muslims as it is to jews. Israel took this land because of that city. The land as a whole was originally called Kan'aan. This included Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Lebenon. These countries exist because the british in the first place divided it up into smaller nations, who eventually developed their own accents and slightly different culture. [B]All[/B] of Kan'aan belongs to the Arabs. We were living there before the British's intrusions. The jews left the land a long, long time ago. Why? Because they were banished from the land by their own lord! They were doomed to roam the earth without a nation because they defied God's law. After moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and took them to the "promised land", he left them for a few days and came back to find them worshipping an Idol of a cow made out of gold. This is why the Israelites/Jews were banished form Kan'aan. And personally, I wouldn't mind joining into one nation with the Jordan, Lebenon, and Syria, toe reform Kan'aan. As long as Jerusalem is returned to us.

But that's all religion right? Well the jews can't use their religion as an excuse to take home from arabs living in the land. It belongs to the Arabs now.

I just occured to me that this discussion might be creating hostility between users. I hope it's not. This is just a debate, and I hope no one leaves it hating anyone. Just so you know, I haven't developed hard feelings towards anyone so far. :) [/COLOR]

[Brasil]

I'm going to make this quick, because I've got a train to catch.

[quote name='Chabichou']Are you saying that the old man deserved to die? That is the injustice I'm talking about! How can anyone deny the fact that what the Israeli soldier did was wrong? Meanwhile, I, even being a palestinian agree that Israeli civilians shouldn't be targetted. It doesn't matter that more Israelis died and just one old man died. "Kill one person and it's as if you killed the whole world. Save one person, and it's as if you saved the whole world". The Israeli soldiers don't have to purposely try to make the amount of casualities on both sides equal! But like I said before, there are far more palestinians dying than Israelis, so the soldiers actually go overboard![/quote]
Now you're just trying to stay angry.

[QUOTE]Conclusion: The soldier had no right to kill the old man or even demolish the home. Does anyone disagree with this statement?[/QUOTE]
Whoa, whoa, [i]whoa[/i]. Hold on there. Nobody in this entire thread has been arguing that Israeli soldiers have the right to kill anyone, so stop trying to spin things in that direction.

What everyone [i]has[/i] been saying, however, is that even though both sides aren't innocent, the Palestinians are far more the aggressor here, because of the suicide bombings, because of HAMAS, because of Jihad, because of Arafat, because of...and into infinity.

[QUOTE]Well actually, people of all religions commit horrible crimes that even go against the teachings of their religion. When a christian person commits a crime, no one ever looks at his religion and blames it. This only happens to muslims. When a muslim person commits a crime, his religion is stated on the news and people think, "Oh, he's muslim, which means this is what his religion is about". That shows the ignorance of western society. Bobba Fett, this is the biasm I am talking about. It's hidden, it's subtle, so it's difficult to detect.[/QUOTE]
Two things. One, The Crusades are something entirely different than what is going on now with the Islamic Extremists. Two, when the Islamic Extremists are saying, "This is what our religion says, and Allah wants us to kill, kill, kill," I seriously do not think any of [i]us[/i] are being racist and/or misconstruing Islam.

Train-time. I'll continue this later, but think about what we're all saying here.

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
You didn't see blood huh? The image quality was pretty bad so you wouldn't be able to see it. If you read the article, you would know how it ended up being video taped. I looked through the website and I don't see anything Anti American. What the hell are you trying to prove? "Oh it's Egyptian, which is Arabic which MUST be anti-American". Sorry you need a better argument there.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
They're anti-American when a headline on the front page is titled "Powell's (same old) swan song." It's also biased when nearly every story is blasting Israel. It's completely one sided. I'm sure you wouldn't know though because you've buried yourself so deep in you "Israel is the evil" idea.

Also I don't think Al-Jazeera is that bad of a news source, but really you'd have to be blind not to notice the huge bias that site (ahram) has.

[quote]I am shocked why so many people are in such high support of a state that oppresses a minority group within it so badly.[/quote]
They oppress them because Palestinians are allowing it. Do you know what the average American thinks of when he sees that another suicide bomber blew up some kids? He thinks of them as animals and doesn't care about the palestinian plight. You do this all to yourselves.

[Drix D'Zanth]

There will not be peace in the Mideast for a very long time?

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Are you saying that the old man deserved to die? That is the injustice I'm talking about! How can anyone deny the fact that what the Israeli soldier did was wrong? Meanwhile, I, even being a palestinian agree that Israeli civilians shouldn't be targetted. It doesn't matter that more Israelis died and just one old man died. "Kill one person and it's as if you killed the whole world. Save one person, and it's as if you saved the whole world". The Israeli soldiers don't have to purposely try to make the amount of casualities on both sides equal! But like I said before, there are far more palestinians dying than Israelis, so the soldiers actually go overboard! [/COLOR][/quote]

You agree that civilians should not be targeted? When?s the last time an Israeli ran into a Palestinian market with a bomb strapped to his chest? If Israeli citizens began throwing stones at HAMAS camp sites, do you think they would refrain from opeing fire upon the angered Jews, as IDF does so often restrain itself under murderous mobs? How can you be so idealistic and caring of a single life, when the only purpose is the war is to eradicate or subjugate an entire group of people?

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
Conclusion: The soldier had no right to kill the old man or even demolish the home. Does anyone disagree with this statement? [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

When Palestinian terrorists stop firing from crowds and buildings, IDF will stop returning fire.

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
Well actually, people of all religions commit horrible crimes that even go against the teachings of their religion. When a christian person commits a crime, no one ever looks at his religion and blames it. This only happens to muslims. When a muslim person commits a crime, his religion is stated on the news and people think, "Oh, he's muslim, which means this is what his religion is about". [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

You haven?t read many of the ?Christianity? threads on OB, have you? Every thread, the point that Hitler may have been Christian and the Crusades are brought up? every damn thread.

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
You seem to be treating this as though Arabs were massacreing Jews. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

The Israeli army does NOT TARGET innocent civilians, it returns fire to the people who are attacking them, because Palestinian ?refugees? have made NO EFFORT for diplomatic ceasefire. Civilians die unfortunately, but the Israelis do not indiscriminately murder those innocents.

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
This article depicts arabs as the most horrible people. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Islamic terrorists are horrible people? Last time I checked, they were.

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
This was just a war fought to get the land back. What's wrong with the palestinians who can't fight to leave temporarily as not to get hurt? For instance, one of my paternal uncles fought in this war. Meanwhile, everyone on my mother's side lives in Jordan right now. Although the majority of the population in jordan is palestinian, these people do not have jordanian citizenship. There is a disctintion between jordanians and palestinians presently. As for all this weird stuff about Jordan and Israel being palestine, it was the brithish who divided the arabs into smaller states. The reason we fight so much for the present day Israel is because of the city of Jerusalem, which is important to muslims as it is to jews. Israel took this land because of that city. The land as a whole was originally called Kan'aan. This included Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Lebenon. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Time for a history lesson . Your people are fighting to get the land ?Back?? How many Arabs were exiled after the 1948 establishment of Israel? NONE! Palestinian Jews and Arabs could easily co-exist in the land if the terrorism and violence that has been PROPOGATED BY ISLAMIC TERRORISTS were to cease. The Arab world HATES Jews, and they HATE the concept of a Jewish state, regardless of its ultimate validity. The war over the land has been waged by ALL of Israel?s neighboring states, and they all have attacked Israel in an effort to wipe it off the map. Israel has soundly defeated them time after time, in engagement after engagement. These people legally own the land, the UN recognizes it; Great Britian recognized it when it withdrew its sovereignty. It?s time that the Arab world respect and acknowledge Israel. If this is such an issue of land gain, why then did the Palestinians turn down the 1964 peace accord that granted them 95% of all their demands? Why did Jordan attack Israel when the West Bank was under it?s control. How about Egypt and the Gaza? History has proven that the Palestinians won?t settle for a piece of land here, or there, they will not settle until the entire Jewish population is destroyed, exiled, or subjugated under ?proper? Palestinian Arab rule.

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
These countries exist because the british in the first place divided it up into smaller nations, who eventually developed their own accents and slightly different culture. [B]All[/B] of Kan'aan belongs to the Arabs. We were living there before the British's intrusions. The jews left the land a long, long time ago. Why? Because they were banished from the land by their own lord! They were doomed to roam the earth without a nation because they defied God's law. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

The Kan?aan never existed under any sovereignty. The Jews lived in Israel, founded and populated Jerusalem, and the surrounding settlements, and lived there until the Dia Spora. The Romans, or their ?lords? as you have claimed even recognized the fact that the land was Jewish, and owned by the Jews! After the Dia Spora, the decline of the Roman empire, and the medieval period of history, the land was under both the Crusade and Jihad of such historical figures as King Richard Coeur de Leon, and Saladin. Instigated by both a political motivation, and manipulation of religious zeal, the Crusades attacked the current Mamaluke and Egyptian holdings of Palestine in an effort to reclaim Jerusalem. The recurring attacks by Saladin left the area under Islamic control until the formation of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire fell after WW1 and the area was occupied and sovereignty switched under the British Empire in 1917, who owned the land as legitimately as any previous government. After 1948, the state of Israel was recognized and constitutional zed? then it was immediately attacked by the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq within 24 hours of its foundation! At this point the Arabs had nothing to ?lose? as we could understand in the current land battles, as the Arab populations controlled the West Bank, half of Jerusalem (including the Dome of the Rock), and the Gaza Strip. Follow that up with the 6-days war, the Sinai operations, Yom Kippur war.. and you have a war of Independence that has EARNED Israel?s place in this world.

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
After moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and took them to the "promised land", he left them for a few days and came back to find them worshipping an Idol of a cow made out of gold. This is why the Israelites/Jews were banished form Kan'aan. And personally, I wouldn't mind joining into one nation with the Jordan, Lebenon, and Syria, toe reform Kan'aan. As long as Jerusalem is returned to us. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Don?t you read the Torah/Bible? Those that defied God?s law were punished and the faithful continued to create Israel? this is no divine retribution, as the same historical record you claim evidences their defiling God?s law, also AMELIORATES THEIR CLAIM OVER THE LAND!

If you want TRUE reclaimation of lands? to the RIGHTFUL holders of the lands, you should respect the Jewish state. If you want Palestine, give it back to England, so far it?s the only surviving progenitor to the land, as the Mamluk sultan reign, Ottoman Empire, and Roman Empire are all done and over with. But Israel [i]is[/i] recognized as having existed just as any province of the Roman Empire had been beforehand.

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
But that's all religion right? Well the jews can't use their religion as an excuse to take home from arabs living in the land. It belongs to the Arabs now. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Incorrect, this land is Israel. Founded in 1948 by the UN and Great Britian. This land is a sovereign nation under attack by Islamic terrorists. This land belongs to BOTH Jews and Arabs, but the Arabs can?t seem to respect that. They can?t seem to respect the fact that they can vote, live freely, and serve on the Israeli legislative house. Why? Because they hate Jews. That?s the cold, hard truth.

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f] Conclusion: The soldier had no right to kill the old man or even demolish the home. Does anyone disagree with this statement?
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=green]I?m all for the demolition of the homes of suicide bombers. Maybe then the Palestinian people will begin policing themselves and stop turning a blind eye towards those in their midst intent on killing Israeli civilians.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Well actually, people of all religions commit horrible crimes that even go against the teachings of their religion. When a christian person commits a crime, no one ever looks at his religion and blames it. This only happens to muslims. When a muslim person commits a crime, his religion is stated on the news and people think, "Oh, he's muslim, which means this is what his religion is about". That shows the ignorance of western society. Bobba Fett, this is the biasm I am talking about. It's hidden, it's subtle, so it's difficult to detect.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]I agree that people of all religions have done terrible things, however I don?t feel that the western media is biased against Muslims.

If anything, the west is overwhelming biased against Jews. Take, for instance, the staggering number of European countries that support Palestine. In fact, the US is one of very, very few nations that supports Israel.

The reason for this is media bias [I]against[/I] Israel.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']You seem to be treating this as though Arabs were massacreing Jews.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]Since Arab nations have invaded Israel several times and conducted campaigns of genocide against Jews, in addition to ongoing homicide bombings in Israel, I?d have to say that Arabs [I]are[/I] massacring Jews.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] The reason we fight so much for the present day Israel is because of the city of Jerusalem, which is important to muslims as it is to jews.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]That?s an outright lie. Not only is [b]Jerusalem never mentioned in the Koran, but Muslims pray towards Mecca (Which happens to orient their backs towards Jerusalem).[/b]

The focal point of Judaism is Jerusalem, while the focal point of Islam is Mecca.

You, as a Muslim, should know this.[/color]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f] [B]All[/B] of Kan'aan belongs to the Arabs. We were living there before the British's intrusions.
But that's all religion right? Well the jews can't use their religion as an excuse to take home from arabs living in the land. It belongs to the Arabs now.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=green]This has been addressed factually by many other members, so I?d be interested to see you do the same instead of generalizing.[/color]

[Lady_Rin]

I have been following this thread but not really commenting.

From all of you without exception I feel hate, anger, distrust, suspicion.

I read comments about destroy all jews, destroy all muslims.
I read about the bombers, no more than children really who are suspectible to the machinationsof whatever political group can get their ear.

You quote: history, all of the holy books, political dogma. There has been no agreement by anyone here. No consensus of facts just argument over who is better and who is not. Who is right and who is wrong.

Basically, all of you, again without exception, have been repeating the same rhetoric that I hear on the news, read on the internet and listen to people talking about ovfer and over again. It has become a pissing and Chabichou has had no real answer other than what your governments keep saying. The bad guys are killing the good guys.

Who are the bad guys? Who are the good guys? There are none on either side only victims, jewish and muslim. Chabichou, why do you hate jews? Has any one of them done something to you to make this happen? Is it really the people you hate brought on by politics. The jews here same question.

Why the hate? There's no reason for it. I am a pacifist by nature, Ranger is by choice, yet there are times when I think his is the right answer. Wipe both countries, Isreal and Palestine off the face of the earth. Destroy it all, go ahead because all that has come from this thread which started innocently enough is the hate, fear and distrust I see on the news.

Fight your war, kill each other, destroy both sides. Nobody is going to care about any of you and the world will breathe a sigh of relief when all of you are gone.



[quote="Ranger"] Ahhh, what just happened here and why did Rin just run into the bedroom crying? I'm not going to go back and read this thread, I'm just upset because Rin is.


May I make a suggestion after reading her post? Shut this thread down. All it is doing is makling hard feelings.

[/quote]

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=Lady_Rin]
Why the hate? There's no reason for it. I am a pacifist by nature, Ranger is by choice, yet there are times when I think his is the right answer. Wipe both countries, Isreal and Palestine off the face of the earth. Destroy it all, go ahead because all that has come from this thread which started innocently enough is the hate, fear and distrust I see on the news.

Fight your war, kill each other, destroy both sides. Nobody is going to care about any of you and the world will breathe a sigh of relief when all of you are gone.[/QUOTE]

I like my North Dakota solution better. Less bloodshed. ;)

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Lady_Rin'] From all of you without exception I feel hate, anger, distrust, suspicion.[/quote]

[color=green]I feel a good debate, an exchange on ideas between many mature individuals. As Chabichou stated, she has no hard feelings over this thread. Neither do I.[/color]

[quote name='Lady_Rin'] I read comments about destroy all jews, destroy all muslims.[/quote]

[color=green]Nobody has said kill all Muslims. Chabichou was misunderstood when she said ?wipe Israel off the map?. Nobody on either side has advocated genocide.[/color]

[quote name='Lady_Rin']Who are the bad guys? Who are the good guys? There are none on either side only victims, jewish and muslim. Chabichou, why do you hate jews? Has any one of them done something to you to make this happen? Is it really the people you hate brought on by politics. The jews here same question.[/quote]

[color=green]I?ve read everything here, and I don?t see Chabichou saying anywhere she hates Jews. In fact, I recall her saying she was upset when homicide bombers killed innocent Israelis.[/color]

[quote name='Lady_Rin']Why the hate? There's no reason for it. I am a pacifist by nature, Ranger is by choice, yet there are times when I think his is the right answer. Wipe both countries, Isreal and Palestine off the face of the earth. Destroy it all, go ahead because all that has come from this thread which started innocently enough is the hate, fear and distrust I see on the news.[/quote]

[color=green]That sounds like a genuinely pacifistic response?[/color]

[Brasil]

I trust this will appease the pacifists here?

[center][URL=http://img39.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img39&image=98-DSMiddleEast.jpg][IMG]http://img39.exs.cx/img39/9978/98-DSMiddleEast.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/center]

[desertranger]

OOhhhh kaaay. I think I see what happened. Remenber I backed out a few days ago on this one. I hold no animosity for anyone. I don't think Rin realized what she got into and that Chabichou was a girl either. (is that a pokemon?)

Rin is, shiitake, she is truly a pacifist. Her family was navy and don't ask me why she married me when I was still in the AF. She saw me deployed a few times and a couple when crews didn't get back. We also didn't meet until well after vietnam.

She really doesn't understand what's going on. she doesn't understand war. she does wish desparately for peace. I'm not even sure she would defend herself with lethal force. That's OK, I will.

I on the other hand I spent 15 years flying bombers in one form or another including F-111ss. I want peace for another reason. You should all know, I posted it elsewhere earlier. I don't want to see any more of that. I now see a girl who is terribly afraid living in gaza. Rin would want to hug and mother her, she hates seeing a child in distress, any child. she is very compassionate.

She just got in a little too deep on this one and she knows this. Chabichou she wants you to be happy, to find your love and live in peace. And we'll probably have similar dreams about this tonight, it happens when you've been married this long.

I do know that discussions tend to get pretty deep here. Frankly I would rather argue with Adahn over the whichness of the why.

Peace everybody and remember that Rin wants it by love and I want it by force meajure

good night, I'm gonna put her to bed.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Boba Fett]That?s an outright lie. Not only is Jerusalem never mentioned in the Koran, but Muslims pray towards Mecca (Which happens to orient their backs towards Jerusalem).

The focal point of Judaism is Jerusalem, while the focal point of Islam is Mecca.

You, as a Muslim, should know this.[/QUOTE]Well, actually, the dome of the rock, which is located in Jerusalem, used to be the place where muslims prayed to, before the final prophet was sent Muhammad. The prophet Muhammad was also transported to Jerusalem and then raised directly up to heaven by God (as we Muslims believe). Islam didn't just come after Muhammad came. It's been around since the God first created Adam.

Anyway, many untrue things have been stated in this thread, and I'll I'm getting out of it is anger and depression. I also realized that I need to research the history and religion more, to see how it really supports both arguments. While many of you stated that my sources are biased, yours weren't any less biased either. I think we all need to leave this discussion, because we are all using the wrong sources of information. I encourage everyone to visit not just news sites, but also sites that support each argument. Then we will come back and argue like the mature people were were supposed to be. In addition, I think I would like to visit palestine and see what really is going on. Even hough I'm palestinian, I have canadian citizenship, so I might be able to visit the Israeli settlements and see how the Israeli citizens are making out with the situation themselves.

[quote name='desertranger']OOhhhh kaaay. I think I see what happened. Remenber I backed out a few days ago on this one. I hold no animosity for anyone. I don't think Rin realized what she got into and that Chabichou was a girl either. (is that a pokemon?)[/quote]Lol. Yeah I had this feeling that people thought I was a boy. I wonder if that makes you think differently about my arguments? Also "Chabichou" isn't a pokemon. I went to a french immersion school, and they used to read us these cute french books about a really cool cat called Chabichou (Notice my avatar).:)

I would also like to point out that it's importanat to realize how important and sensitive this issue is to Jews and Muslims. Christians too, but I haven't seen much argument in a Christian point of view. If you're not from these religions, please be careful what you say. If you're not Israeli or Palestinian, please be careful what you say. You're not living the reality that they do, and as an observer, whose sources are not presented to them in their complete form due to the media, be wise. Be smart. Seek out the truth. Seek out the truth from both the Jews and Muslims who support what is right.

Lady Rin, I want you to be happy too. :) Like I said before, I am only in support of peace, and although I am in support of a palestinian state, I hate seeing all these innocent children and other civilians dying from both sides. It really is heartbreaking.[/COLOR]

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]

I would also like to point out that it's importanat to realize how important and sensitive this issue is to Jews and Muslims. Christians too, but I haven't seen much argument in a Christian point of view.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Well, I'll give my opinion again in a religious context (I'm a Christian).

I don't think that who owns the territory has any bearing whatsoever on our religion. Some people act like it does, and certain Christians want to have posession over various holy sites (hence the debacle of the Crusades).

But Christianity does not depend on a piece of land. The Bible says that the body of Christ (all believers) is the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is worldwide, not isolated in Jerusalem. Wherever people pray in Jesus name and show God's love to their neighbors, that is where the Kingdom of God is.

Therefore, I think we have no biblical obligation whatsoever to support Israel over Palestine. We do have a Biblical injunction to show justice and love mercy. That commmand should be what guides Christian policy makers in regards to the middle-east.

We are also called to show love to and make disciples of both Jews and Muslims. We shouldn't favor one over the other based on our religion.

There's my two cents from a Christian perspective.

[EVA Unit 100]

Here's a solution:

The most debated part of the land is Jerusalem, right? Well, instead of fighting over who gets Jerusalem or not, simply turn Jerusalem into a mini-country of itself. It wouldn't be controlled by the Jews (who'd still have control over the state of Israel) or the Pallestinians (who'd still be the main force in all of their current countries), but it'd be a place of itself, where people of all religions could come to live and pray at their holy places without any concrete government. The people who live there perminantly could chose to either be a citizen of Israel or one of the Arab countries and obey that country's laws but still live in Jerusalem. Wouldn't that solve everything?

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=EVA Unit 100]Here's a solution:

The most debated part of the land is Jerusalem, right? Well, instead of fighting over who gets Jerusalem or not, simply turn Jerusalem into a mini-country of itself. It wouldn't be controlled by the Jews (who'd still have control over the state of Israel) or the Pallestinians (who'd still be the main force in all of their current countries), but it'd be a place of itself, where people of all religions could come to live and pray at their holy places without any concrete government. The people who live there perminantly could chose to either be a citizen of Israel or one of the Arab countries and obey that country's laws but still live in Jerusalem. Wouldn't that solve everything?[/QUOTE]

No, sorry EVA, it wouldn't solve everything because the argument would still exist about who would get to control the piece of land. The Palestines or the Israelis? You said it yourself its an either or situation. I think each religion thinks its their own promised land, therefore they don't think they have to share it with anyone -- so why would they comprimise what is rightfully theirs anyway?

My answer to this, is that if it is truly your religion's promised land, your Lord will deliver you from your trials and eventually give you what you deserve. It may not happen in our lifetimes, but if you think it is actually yours, it will come. If it does not, it wasn't yours in the first place.

And Lady Rin, I think Ranger's right. You did get a little too worked up over this. This is a heavy discusion, and not talking about it or complete pascifism won't solve it. People's minds don't work as logically as yours as far as the anti-war thing goes. This thing is a culmination of religion and politics, and both sides don't want to forfeit their homes.

And how is MSNBC or CNN more biased then Al-jezzera. You might as well read the past explainations of this somewhere in the above text. I feel like a broken record. People, please consult the FACTS before pulling out some complete crap and acting like it's true. Like the Jews not having to pay for their homes.

As for me, I already have my mind made up.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Israelis are building this wall of there's over onto Palestinian territory. There are Palestinian villages [i]inside the Israeli walls[/i]. Is it just me, or does this sound like a land-grab?

Anyway, I'm going to give you the simplified verison of what I believe should happen. Like a Venn diagram, these two countries borders should overlap, they should have a Union on the Gaza strip. Ostensibly, the Israeli border starts 2 miles to the west of the western edge of the Gaza strip, and the Pakistani border starts 2 miles to the east of the eastern border of the Gaza strip. And the land in between is for anyoe. An international zone. Why is that so hard? Maybe they don't believe the same things about religion as you do, but they worship the same place. Isn't that enough to encourage friendship? Compromise is the key here.[/size]

[Harry]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] You're not living the reality that they do, and as an observer, whose sources are not presented to them in their complete form due to the media, be wise. Be smart. Seek out the truth. Seek out the truth from both the Jews and Muslims who support what is right.[/COLOR][/quote]
Touching words from the person quoting propoganda by a fundamentalist muslim newspaper from Egypt.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']Like a Venn diagram, these two countries borders should overlap, they should have a Union on the Gaza strip. Ostensibly, the Israeli border starts 2 miles to the west of the western edge of the Gaza strip, and the Pakistani border starts 2 miles to the east of the eastern border of the Gaza strip. And the land in between is for anyoe. An international zone. Why is that so hard? Maybe they don't believe the same things about religion as you do, but they worship the same place. Isn't that enough to encourage friendship? Compromise is the key here.[/size][/quote]

It isn't enough for the two countries. There are people over there who don't want to compromise, hence the suicide bombers who detonate themselves in the middle of a market, even while the Palestinians and the Israelis were making a peace conference.

And on top of that, like I JUST said before, there's the religious difference. They both think that this strip of land is THEIRS. Not anyone elses, no compromise invovled. Jerusalem is their promised land in Judiasm, and the holy land in Islam. Think of it like this:

You live in your house. And one day, some random family comes up and says
"Hey, this is our home according to this (point to identification papers)."

And how do you reply? You have legal rights over the house. "Erm... we bought this house a while ago... and our papers say that we own it."

So would you share your house with these people? I'm betting on no, unless this family has one hot daughter (or son for the ladies). Let's say they don't. The answer is no.

So... you take them to court. Right? Yeah, probably, but before that, there will be some sort of verbal confrontation (this could be a very very small scale war), resulting in the two families not liking each other's first impressions, and only gets worse during the trial.

Do you see why both sides dont want a compromise?

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I do see what you're saying, but in the end, religion is subjective not quantitative. Should anyone 'own' a national monument, and be able to forbid others from seeing it? No. It is the same with something like this...nobody can truly have a complete claim over it due to the fact [i]that both sides value it[/i], and they cannot refute the other sides claim to it. Which is why The Gaza Strip / West bank should be an international zone, similar to the principle of 'international waters'.[/size]

[Lady_Rin]

[quote name='"Chabichou"'] Lol. Yeah I had this feeling that people thought I was a boy. I wonder if that makes you think differently about my arguments?[/quote]

If anything it makes a peace treaty seem to be more urgent. For some reason one never thinks about girls in a war zone only the mothers. Soldiers are pictured as male though I know there are girls in combat. I've thougth about the children, the <14 year olds.

Chabichou do the children play and go to school? Do they have toys and plushies? Dolls, bears, Tonka toys? Please tell me as all of a sudden I want to know how the children fare in a place of war. Is it the same for children on both sides? I really don't know since when you hear about children over there, anywhere over there, it is always after an attack by someone leaving the innocent injured or dying. In this case it is the innocent of heart and mind who have yet to learn what is going on around them and why their world is one of destruction and death.

I had a thought, only it might take an entire generation of children to do this. Take the children from both sides and make them live, play and go to school together in a private school setting allowng them to go home on some weekends and holidays. If a generation if raised in an environ of peace then these children would be friends and love each other and not want to fight as there parents do today.

I really shouldn't be here as it upsets me too much. I try to think of all of you as friends or the children and young adults in our town and I really don't like conflict, not even when Ranger had to do something in the line of duty.

I originally came here for a reason this morning and not to post something. This is for Chabichou (how is that pronounced) since she started this thread and she likes cats. I have cats, two of them; Zoozoo and Gray Kitty. Chabichou you should know when you get married; if your husband is a dog person like Ranger he is going to call you a stupid cat lady and your children will grow up going "Kitty (s)cratch me!. *giggles at the thought of Chabichous' children doing that".

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/desertranger/Lady_Rin/apricot.jpg[/IMG]

My love to you.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1]Israelis are building this wall of there's over onto Palestinian territory. There are Palestinian villages [i]inside the Israeli walls[/i']. Is it just me, or does this sound like a land-grab?[/size][/quote]

[color=green]Grabbing land from whom? Israel has legal right to both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. If anyone, the current occupants of those territories are involved in a land grab.[/color]

[Morpheus]

Do you know why the jews are in control? There are more of them. That's why there is a jewish prime minister. That doesn't mean that a minority can just attack the majority and demand their own country. There is about an 80% christian population in the US. That doesn't mean that the jews, the muslims, the atheists, so on will break away from us. Because we have harmony. no one cares If you're a chrisitian, a muslim, a jew, because we want good representation, not religious. While both sides have done horrible acts of violence, but arafat should have tried to become prime minister instead of trying to violently kill the jews. Who in history is he starting to sound like?

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Boba Fett][color=green']Grabbing land from whom? Israel has legal right to both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. If anyone, the current occupants of those territories are involved in a land grab.[/color][/quote]

Technically, the Gaza and West bank weren't origionally part of 1948 Israel. They were acquired through military operation; all retaliatory, during various wars. They are similar to the Sinai peninsula, which Israel controlled for a period of time after the 6 day war.