Israel and Palestine: Lets resolve this once and for all people...

[Guest kimo123]

oh and heezay is right they struggle to get food they are not the barbarians the israelis are :flaming: :flaming: :flaming: :flaming: :flaming: :flaming: :flaming: :flaming:

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Zeta']And that just makes it ok for a Palestinian to run into a crowd with a bomb and kill many more innocent lives? Sure if the Palestinian didn't do anything wrong they have no right to be killed. Tell that to the Palestinians who blow themselves up in a crowd of Israeli's and kills them.[/quote]No, I never said it was okay to bomb Israeli civilians. But the reality is, Israeli soldiers kill many palestinian civilians in cold blood. If I was living in palestine right now, I would be in danger of being killed by Israeli soldiers even if I didn't do anything wrong. Why does everyone support the Israeli defence force if the hurt civilians this way? They don't even think twice before killing. They've even killed Israelis simply because they though they were palestinians. Once, and Israeli man who was deaf got on a bus. He was suspected to be a suicide bomber simply because he overpayed. The bus driver decided to stop and call the Israeli defence force to investigate. They asked him to show them I.D, but he couldn't hear them so he didn't respond. Then they killed him. Only when they checked his pockets and found his wallet did they find out he was Israeli. I must say, what a responsible and professional way to deal with the situation.[/COLOR]

[Zeta]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']No, I never said it was okay to bomb Israeli civilians. But the reality is, Israeli soldiers kill many palestinian civilians in cold blood. If I was living in palestine right now, I would be in danger of being killed by Israeli soldiers even if I didn't do anything wrong. Why does everyone support the Israeli defence force if the hurt civilians this way? They don't even think twice before killing. They've even killed Israelis simply because they though they were palestinians. Once, and Israeli man who was deaf got on a bus. He was suspected to be a suicide bomber simply because he overpayed. The bus driver decided to stop and call the Israeli defence force to investigate. They asked him to show them I.D, but he couldn't hear them so he didn't respond. Then they killed him. Only when they checked his pockets and found his wallet did they find out he was Israeli. I must say, what a responsible and professional way to deal with the situation.[/COLOR][/quote]

And Palestinians kill many innocent Israeli's in cold bold. Hell, I can partly see where the Israeli's are coming from. They have been victim to many, many terrorist attacks. Of course they are jumpy. If the guy doesn't answer he could in fact be a suicide bomber. You live in an area where there are suicide bombings as often as there are there, and see how your nerves are. They have no idea who is there to kill them and who is not. The Palestinians have a choice as to not strap a bomb on themselves. The Israeli's don't have a choice when one shows up.

Seriously you still haven't said why they don't just talk things over with the Israeli's rather than try to force it on them. It almost worked once, but it was the Palestinians who didn't go through with it.

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR="#004a6f"'] I'm a palestinian, but I was born in Saudi Arabia. When I came to Canada, my passport didn't say I was Saudi, it said I was palestinian. So where is my country? If I didn't have my Canadian citizenship, I wouldn't be allowed in Israel because I'm palestinian. So what am I? How can you say that palestine never exisited, if I'm clearly defined as a Palestinian?[/COLOR][/quote]
How can you say that native america never existed, when some are clearly defined as native americans? You've got to look at this in the broader sense; Every single Religious/Cultural/Racial group is not going to get their own country. That's not how the world works. I'm a caucasian. Where's Caucasia? I'm not religious. Where's Athea? There are some things that don't happen. Israel is really small. Do you know what will happen if Israel breaks and gives palestinians there own country? Every other minority is going to go to the government and expect them to wipe their *** and give them a country, too. Israel will be in constant turmoil as everyone starts attacking more innocents with the logic, "Well, if it worked for them..." Do you see what kind of hell Israel would be in if they gave way? Do you understand what they are going through?

[Sara]

[quote name='Morpheus']Do you know what will happen if Israel breaks and gives palestinians there own country? Every other minority is going to go to the government and expect them to wipe their *** and give them a country, too. Israel will be in constant turmoil as everyone starts attacking more innocents with the logic, "Well, if it worked for them..." [/quote][size=1]I don't know if your logic works. [i]Israel[/i] was created by the UN shortly after World War Two. The current conflict is largely a result of that.

So there's already a "well, it worked for them," precedent. Not that it's one that anyone would particularly desire to follow...

thank you for [i]enough[/i] flowers,
Sara[/size]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Zeta]The Palestinians have a choice as to not strap a bomb on themselves. The Israeli's don't have a choice when one shows up.

Seriously you still haven't said why they don't just talk things over with the Israeli's rather than try to force it on them. It almost worked once, but it was the Palestinians who didn't go through with it.[/QUOTE]Israeli soldiers have the choice to keep their guns pointed away from civilians. It doesn't take that much hand eye coordination you know! All I keep seeing in photos is Israelis pointing thier guns at women with their children. What's the point of that? They purposely pull the trigger too. Israelis kill civilians on puropse. Well I say to them: Sorry, jerks, you're gonna recieve some sort of retaliation!

As for talking it out, it's happened before. Everytime, it was Israeli soldiers who broke the peace by killing civilians.[/COLOR]

[James]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]Israeli soldiers have the choice to keep their guns pointed away from civilians. It doesn't take that much hand eye coordination you know! All I keep seeing in photos is Israelis pointing thier guns at women with their children. What's the point of that? They purposely pull the trigger too. Israelis kill civilians on puropse. Well I say to them: Sorry, jerks, you're gonna recieve some sort of retaliation!

As for talking it out, it's happened before. Everytime, it was Israeli soldiers who broke the peace by killing civilians.[/color][/QUOTE]
[color=#707875]Absolutely. It's useless for anyone to try and pin the blame exclusively on one side.

Do I agree with suicide bombing? Hell no. Not only is indiscriminate killing of civilians something I abhor, but it [i]hurts [/i]the Palestinean people and perpetuates the violence.

Do I agree with the horrible treatment of the Palestineans by the Israeli government (note the word "government")? Again, hell no. It fuels anger, hatred and hostility. It creates an environment for new terrorists to be generated. It adds legitimacy to suicide bombers in the eyes of many Palestineans, which is an awful state of affairs.

So, to suggest that both sides are not at fault (I mean in general), is absolutely false. And it really doesn't help the issue. That's why totally impartial negotiators are always required for these two sides to deal with each other.[/color]

[Zeta]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Israeli soldiers have the choice to keep their guns pointed away from civilians. It doesn't take that much hand eye coordination you know! All I keep seeing in photos is Israelis pointing thier guns at women with their children. What's the point of that? They purposely pull the trigger too. Israelis kill civilians on puropse. Well I say to them: Sorry, jerks, you're gonna recieve some sort of retaliation!

As for talking it out, it's happened before. Everytime, it was Israeli soldiers who broke the peace by killing civilians.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]


But yet the Palestinians had a chance for peace, and they didn't take it.

I know both sides are at fault. But what causes more overall damage? A suicide bomber, or on bullet? I don't agree with the actions of both sides. But I am definitly not going to side with the one who straps bombs to themselves and walks into a market/wherever it may be. I hear more about the suicide bombings than I do about Israeli shootings.

A few quotes from [i]Time[/i] Magazine.

"Arafat funded violent groups throughout the territories. Even in the optimistic early days after the signing of the Oslo accords, Arafat turned a blind eye when Palestinian terrorists bombed defenseless Israeli civilians. Apparently he believe that such acts would force concessions from Israel. What Palestinians needed was a leader like Neslon Mandela. What they got was a sort of Rober Mugabe. Good riddance, and please, no more crocodile tears."

"Arafat imbued the Palestinian movement with self-deception. His legacy is a shattered economy, a bankrupt government and numerous militan organizations like Hamas."

I am quite fond of the last one. What has he actually accomplished with his barbaric ways?

[James]

[QUOTE=Zeta]But yet the Palestinians had a chance for peace, and they didn't take it.

[/QUOTE]

[color=#811C3A]My understanding (upon having read more about it) is that the deal in 2000 actually ignored several key issues (Jerusalem and refugees in particular). We always hear about the "90%" of land that was being offered to Arafat...but I almost view that as a side issue. I think the question of borders is really not something that couldn't be negotiated somewhat easily (relatively speaking).

You have to realize that had Arafat accepted the deal, he would most likely have faced armed opposition by some groups at home. Had a conflict occurred, it may have even sparked a civil war.

Having said that, I think that Arafat's refusal to accept the deal was a disappointment. But we have to keep this in context -- there are reasons why the deal wasn't accepted, some legitimate, some not legitimate. You could argue that he should have "done the right thing" regardless of the pressure...but if that pressure threatens a wider conflict, it becomes a more difficult question.

Bear in mind, I'm not even saying that Arafat didn't accept the deal for unselfish reasons -- I know that he's as big a corrupt political opportunist as someone like Saddam Hussein. However, we should take care not to simplify the issue.

In regard to your comments, I can only once again repeat that the Israeli government dishes out terrible punishments to Palestinean civilians (and many, many more innocent Palestineans die than Israelis).

Again, I am not attempting to say that one side is "better" than another, or anything like that. Both sides are equally at fault -- you have extremists on both sides who don't want peace and who actively work against it.

However, it's no good to simply list the atrocities of one side. Where you can talk about suicide bombing statistics, I can talk about military checkpoints, intimidation and mass abuse.

It's a back-and-forth cycle. And peace can't be achieved until that cycle is broken. [/color]

[Zeta]

Which is what I said in a previous post actually, lol.


i know both sides are at fault. But my opinions on the matter stray towards the Israeli's side, it is just how I feel. Had Arafat accepted the terms, he could have spoken things over with the Israeli's for later things. I believe they would be much more inclined to negotiatie with a civilized leader and group of people, rather than those who try to force things to go their way. Obviously his way of doing things are not working, since the Palestinians still do not have their own country. By accepting the agreement in the first place they could have [i]something[/i] and could easliy get their views heard, rather than turning to terroristic ways. It is much easier to get things accomplished by sitting down and talking things over with the other party, rather than trying to force them.

[James]

[color=#811C3A]I agree with what you're saying -- but only to a certain extent. The whole "only wanting things to go their way" describes Israel as much as it describes Palestine. Afterall, it's only now that Israel is actually withdrawing settlements...and doing that requires both political parties to form a coalition government, simply to get the bill passed. So, even in the political sphere, it's practically impossible for the governing party to have such legislation passed. And yet, the withdrawal of settlements is really quite a small aspect of what would be a comprehensive peace plan. I mean, it's controversial in Israel (for some), but it's far less controversial than the question of Jerusalem, for example.

I will say one thing, though. I'm really happy that Marwan Barghouti (apologies if his name is spelled incorrectly, I'm forgetting the spelling at this late hour) has withdrawn his bid for president of the PLO and has stated that he is backing Abbas. Abbas is a moderate and although he's not the most charismatic man on Earth (he could probably make a sloth die of boredom), he is at least moderate and very interested in democracy and legitimate government.

So, that's a positive sign for things to come.[/color]