What Is Your Religion?

[Annie]

[color=darkslateblue] I'm sure there are churches that are not like the ones I know. I was just basing an example of how money orientated today is. Which is sad. And I'm very glad to see that your church does those things. [/color]

[Xander Harris]

Annie, I feel sorry for you, because of your experience with the fundamentalist. Fundamentalists tick me off, and their attitude toward our Catholic brothers and sisters is appalling. However, this girl clearly does not understand her own religion. Christianity teaches that you must be 'saved', correct, but being saved is only the beginning. If you really understand the depth of what Christ did for you and have devoted your life to Him, you will begin to live according to his laws in gratitude and joy. If you are a Christian, you should not go kill an innocent child and justify it by saying 'oh, well, I'm saved so I can do whatever I want'. This is not the message of the Bible or the Christian religion. You say you attend a Catholic Church? Go talk to your priest. The Catholics have a very strong belief in the idea that 'faith without works is dead.'

Another thing this girl exhibits is pride. "I'm so great because I chose Christ". The Bible comes down strongly against this as well. It is "By Grace you are saved, not by works so that no one may boast."

The exact relationship between grace and works is a complicated theological issue that I really don't have the time to get into here, but the basic principle is simple. God acted out in love toward the world, by being incarnated as a man and dying for our sins. He has acted in your life (whether you believe in predestination or not... another complicated theological discussion) to bring you the good news. Now that you have eternal life, you are given the holy spirit, and you do good works in gratitude for the incredible gift Christ has given you. Good works are a result of grace, not vice versa. That's the basic Christian gospel, in a nutshell.

I am convicted, while typing this, just how much I need a savior, and how much further I have to go in my sanctification, when I think of times when I myself have used grace to justify sin.

Here's a verse you might find interesting:

[Quote=Romans 5 and 6]
Peace and Joy
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[c] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned? 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin? 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey?whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to everincreasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord. [/Quote]

A saying I've developed over the course of this year, as I hear other stories like yours and listen to the works of Tony Campolo (who would totally agree with you on the missions thing... go surf for some of his sermons. I think you would really like them), is that the evangelical Church (not homosexuals, as some folks would have you think ;) ) is often the devil's greatest tool in America. I would love to talk to you more through PM or IM, if you'd like Annie. Send me a wire if you're interested.

My prayers are with you in your struggles,

James Bierly

[Annie]

[color=darkslateblue]Hmm..intruiging. Don't feel sorry for me, James B. It's her unborn children that never got a chance to make it into the world that you should pray for.

I don't attend church because I no longer believe in anything they preach. Sad, yes. [/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Annie][color=darkslateblue]
I don't attend church because I no longer believe in anything they preach. Sad, yes. [/color][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]I don't believe that you need a building to practice your religion in or to be around a large number of people. After all didn't Jesus say: When two or thre are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst? Hey, I haven't read it in a while.

My point is that all you really need to do to practice your relgion is to pick out what you enjoyed about the religion and practice that. Focus on the parts that meant something to you like helping those in need.

In wicca 1 I learned that the highest calling of that religion is to serve others. I believe that should be considered the highest calling in all relgions and you don't need a newly renovated church to do that.[/color]

[Nomad]

[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium]Atheist. I do agree with the comment that Atheist is not a religion (don't remember who said it and too lazy to go back and check, heh). I have choosen not to believe in a god of any kind. When I was younger, I'd occasionally goto church with my cousin and learn about God, Jesus and what have you. I began to believe in the things I was being taught. But seeing as how I live in a non-religious family (parents are religious, I mean not like they dismiss everything they just to do the things really religious people would do), I never knew what religion was which, the stories about Jesus and all the other stories.

About a year or two ago I began to question how real the Bible might be. I have found faults about books, religions, gods, and beliefs. I then decided to not believe in what I do not know about. Since then I have read things from books and sites about the important religious documents, and articles dissproving those so-called "facts". I began to question if any religion was real and therefore chose to disagree with all of them. I do not hate others in religious families, I don't try to disprove their beliefs, I do not make them question whether or not they have made the right choice.

I'm going to stop now seeing as how I'm babbling and I'm starting to repeat myself.[/FONT]

[Annie]

[color=darkslateblue]I'd like to apologise for my short post..I was being rushed off of the computer..-grumbles at her father- I wanted to write more..so allow me to do it now ^_^

Faith/religion is something that you don't [go to a building] have to have a person standing at an alter, preaching the gospel, how you should abide by the 10 commandments, what will become of you if you don't obey them, yada yada yada.

Faith/religion is something that you can have on your own. Faith is a belief, a hope, a wish, whatever you want to "label" it. That's something you cannot find in a building, or a gathering of people. That is why I do not go to a building [church].[/color]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']I don't believe that you need a building to practice your religion in or to be around a large number of people..[/color][/quote]

[color=darkslateblue]So, yes, I agree ^_^[/color]

[Kareiyasha]

I'm a practicing Buddist and have been since I was 11 years old. The rest of my family however is strict Roman Catholic, so when I decided not to continue with that religion (at my confermation) it came as a shock. Although I was 13 at my confermation, I had been, I suppose, a "Closet Buddist" for nearly 3 years. My Parents and Grandparents still aren't accepting of it, but I've always been a pretty free spirit. For a few years I wasn't very interested in any religion, and I don't have a temple that I go to right now, but I do meditate, and pray often.

If you're looking for information on Zen Buddism, feel free to PM me

[SaiyanPrincessX]

I'm a Christian. My parents both believe in god, but in diffrent ways. My dad belives that church is an important part of religion and understanding. My mom is the same in some ways but doesn't go to church. She says she feels closer to god when in nature. She loves being out doors.

So I grew up in a religous family, but we only went to church occationally. I know I've always belived in a god higher than us, Jesus, and heaven. My parents always taught me to pray at night and such.

My dad always tried to get us to go to church, my mom did try aswell, but she doesn't like that kind of setting I suppose, as I metioned, more nature for her. As most young children though, my brother and I hated going to church. My grandma also tried to take us. Its usually very boring at that age. Just last year however I decided I wanted to go, so my dad and I now go every Sunday, or try to. I've missed several.I feel a spiritual closness when in the large church with everyone singing psalms and chattering away.

I've got the qualities of both my parents. I enjoy going to church, and I also feel close to god in nature. They are both open minded so neither put down anyone for their religion and beliefs, but feel sorry for what they will miss. I'm the same in that aspect aswell.

[Guest kazukun]

I am an Atheistic Agnostic. That is I don't believe in religion, and am not sure that a god exists but I leave room for the possibility.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]I'm a Muslim. To me, it seems to be the most simplistic and basic religion their is. There's only one God, and no other diety is to be associated with him. People don't need their own lord to send himself down as his son to die so that they are saved from their sins. Everyone is born free of sin, and their good and bad deeds determine wether they go to hell or heaven in addition to their belief in God. Why did god create us? To serve him, simple as that. This includes living according to his will.

Azurewolf, I'm guessing that you're Muslim too. I just have this gut feeling.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Annie][color=darkslateblue]Oh my, Gavin. I think this will be my first disagreement with you..to an extent. I'm not going to touch on the Mormons, because I am not too affiliated with them. But I am going to argue your accusation on the Jehovah's Witnesses.

It's not a based religion. What they believe in is the Bible. They take everything that's going on in the world today and relate it to what has happened in the Bible. Then they proceed to ask you to think about what you can do about it. They don't push you into believing that their "religion" is what you should believe..or Catholicism, Methodist, Protestant, or whatever. They simply use the Bible in a positive way to help deal with what's going on in the world, and how you can make a difference to yourself, your friends, and your family.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are a group of people who have the idea to help people use the Bible as a tool, rather than a weapon (is what I've found to be most religion's main to turn, even the religion I still question as my own).
[/color][/QUOTE]

[size=1]Well Annie I'm merely describing my own encounters with members of the Jehova's Witnesses and Mormans, and I personally found them to be rather strong-armed in their methods. Now maybe the guys who live around my area just take a more active role in trying to covert people to "[I]the truth[/I]" as Ken pointed out but again I'm merely saying that that was the extent of my experience with them. [/SIZE]

[Annie]

[quote name='kazukun']I am an Atheistic Agnostic. [/quote]

[color=darkslateblue]Is that even possible? I don't think that can be. It is like oil and water. That just does not mix.

Atheism is the disbelief, or denial, that God exsists. Period.

Agnostic is the belief that there cannot be proof that God exists; but an agnostic will not deny that there is a possibility that God does exsist.[/color]

So, from your second sentence:

[quote=kazukun]
I don't believe in religion, and am not sure that a god exists but I leave room for the possibility.[/QUOTE]

[color=darkslateblue]It sounds to me that you lean more towards being agnostic ^_^ Which is kewl.

Oh, Kane. I know, deary. Like you mentioned, perhaps they are different over there in Europe than they are here in the States.[/color]

[James]

[color=#811C3A]If I had to sum up my religious beliefs, I'd say that I'm closer to being agnostic. In terms of whether God can be proven or disproven, I really don't know. However, I think that the pressure is on people to prove him rather than disprove him. You know?

I'm really not religious, despite going to Sunday school with my grandparents and often visiting church with them as a child. My parents themselves are not religious, but they have always allowed me to choose what belief system I'd follow.

My feeling is that religion is a human creation -- if God exists, I doubt that he/she/it is much like what humans have written. I mean, I view the Bible and other man-made texts in the same way that I view Egyptian heiroglyphics and ancient Aboriginal cave paintings. I think that these are all ways that people were trying to explain their world at the time and obviously, in retrospect, we can see that many of these things were factually wrong (simply because we understand more about our world now -- for example, we know that the world isn't flat and held up by four pillars and we know that the sky isn't water held in place by a glass firmament).

So, I would say that I'm not an athiest -- that really isn't a correct way of describing me. I am definitely not closed to the concept of a being that created the world or the universe, but I really doubt that this being (if it exists) is anything like what humans have written about. I think humans have just historically needed to explain things and religion has been a good way of doing that. Religion has also historically been used as an early form of law (ie: Pharoahs would often introduce new religions when they came to power, and religion was modified and used by Christians to rule over large populations for many hundreds of years).

So I suppose that I'm simply "not religious", but I'm not actually in the camp that totally denies the existence of God. I just feel that if God exists, it is probably a great deal more complex than our simplistic texts would suggest.[/color]

[Brasil]

If I were to distill my entire religious philosophy to a sentence, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."

I'll explain this in this post, but my religion is something I like to call Marxist Pythonianism.

Marxist Pythonianism is my own personal...life approach. It's not restricted to any particular...genre of life, necessarily. It pertains to pretty much any facet of life you can think of, and it's pretty damn cool in that regard. To the Marxist Pythonian, life is merely a fun challenge. Any hiccup we encounter isn't a signal of the end of the world; it's merely just something to work on. Really, to an MP, there's nothing that worries us. You might say we've adopted a "No worries" stance, heh.

I find that when I don't concern myself with the "Beatles" (i.e., organized religion, God, etc), I'm having a much more groovy time. It's much more of a relief for me to know that I'm doing what I want, and that I'm shaping my own existence. I'm in control of my life, and the confidence in my abilities is more than enough to drive me to be successful and content with my life. Call me an Atheist, call me Existential, if you will, but to me, we only have what we have here, and this is actually one of the precepts for Marxist Pythonianism.

MP is all about living life, whatever that life may be. It's all good. Life's a challenge, but you learn to live with it, and change what you can, and if you can't, then oh well, try again later.

The name, Marxist Pythonianism, is actually a combination of two comedy troupes, the Marx Brothers and Monty Python. The comedy of MPs reflect those troupes.

So...yeah. That's my religion in a nutshell.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] Everyone is born free of sin, and their good and bad deeds determine wether they go to hell or heaven in addition to their belief in God.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=darkviolet]I read something about that, in some ways Islam reminds me of Wicca. Except that your deeds determine how your next life will be instead of if you go to heaven or hell. Also I heard that children are considered sinless entirely until they reach puberty. That's kind of like the Wiccan belief that children have perfect love and perfect trust and why they're allowed to move freely in and out of circle during ritual.

I also read that before you're born your good and bad deeds are predetermined. However, if you are supposed to do a bad deed and do a good deed instead that good deed counts as 10 good deeds. But if you're supposed to do a good deed and do a bad deed that bad deed only counts as one bad deed.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything that I said, it's been a while since I read that book (The complete idiots Guide to Islam.)

I really admire your wearing the hajib and fully covering yourself (I read about that in the clothing post)It would drive me crazy. [/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']I also read that before you're born your good and bad deeds are predetermined. However, if you are supposed to do a bad deed and do a good deed instead that good deed counts as 10 good deeds. But if you're supposed to do a good deed and do a bad deed that bad deed only counts as one bad deed. [/color][/quote]Yes, God knows the future, he knows the moment you are concieved wether you will end up in hell or heaven, but simply because he created time itself.

Yeah, isn't the "point system" for good deeds quite generous? I sometimes worry, but then remember how merciful God is. Even if you think of doing something good and don't end up doing it, you get good deeds. If you think of doing something bad, and don't do it and then do something good, then woah! Major reward![/COLOR]

[DeathBug]

I'm a non-denominational Christian. Well, technically, I was baptized as a Luthren, but I dislike on principle the splintering of Christianity. The various schisms within the faiths happened for very specific reasons that are, for the most part, no longer valid. Why are we still holding onto differences that seperate us, when the commonalities of our faith should be bringing us together?

Granted, I've been told occassionally that some of my core beliefs don't jive with some Biblical teachings, but I don't really buy that. My biggest beef is with the concept of damnation on the basis of differing faith. I'm not going to speak for all Christians, but I know that the God I believe in wouldn't send, say, Ghandi to Hell.

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='James']However, I think that the pressure is on people to prove him rather than disprove him. [/quote]

I can't speak for all religions, of course, but as far as Christianity goes, it's never going to be possible to "prove" God. That would take away free choice. After all, if it could be proven He exists, then you would believe in Him no matter what, just as we believe 2+2=4. It would then no longer be free choice, just as believing 2+2=4 isn't really a choice.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='wristcutter']I can't speak for all religions, of course, but as far as Christianity goes, it's never going to be possible to "prove" God. That would take away free choice. After all, if it could be proven He exists, then you would believe in Him no matter what, just as we believe 2+2=4. It would then no longer be free choice, just as believing 2+2=4 isn't really a choice.[/quote]
But if he is real, then there doesn't need to be an element of free chouice around it. It's like saying to people they have a choice to walk or fly. They don't. Because the fact is humans can't fly unaided. And, if God was true, then that would be a fact... there is no element of free choice involved. But, just because he exists doesn't mean you have to worship him.

Anyway, I don't believe that I said what I was on my first post here, though I imagine most of you know.

Agnostic is my 'religion' of choice, lol. I am willing to accept that any number of religious deities may exist. I am not going to discount that, and wouldn't want to. But at the same time, I don't really think that they do exist. So, I sit in the middle, lol. And, if a force such as God does exist, I doubt that he'd even be something we could comprehend.[/size]

[James]

[quote name='wrist cutter']I can't speak for all religions, of course, but as far as Christianity goes, it's never going to be possible to "prove" God. That would take away free choice. After all, if it could be proven He exists, then you would believe in Him no matter what, just as we believe 2+2=4. It would then no longer be free choice, just as believing 2+2=4 isn't really a choice.

The thing is, you can't have it both ways. You have told me in the past that God exists as a matter of fact. If that is the truth, then it would be great if it were proveable, so that there is no more need for debate.

By saying that God needs no proof at all, you are essentially having your cake and eating it too. You can continue to say that he exists as a matter of fact, but still feel that you don't need to prove it in any way.

So, while I do not deny that God may exist, I don't know as a matter of fact. As a result, I'm not willing to say that he does or doesn't exist. I simply don't know. And I'm okay with not knowing. If I find out one day, great. If not, great. Either revelation would be a massive discovery in my life.

But the onus is definitely on those should prove God, rather than those who should disprove him.

If you say that one has to believe in God for it to become truth or however you would choose to phrase that, then you are essentially saying that God is either a creation of the human mind...or that objective truth is only what each of us chooses to accept or ignore.

So yeah. I can't speak for everyone, obviously. I mean, vast vast numbers of people believe in God with no proof whatsoever and there are many religious people who "casually" practice their religion. For others, proof of God matters less than the lifestyle and the core principles of the religion itself.

Any of those avenues is totally fine and I have nothing against people who want to practice faith in whatever way they like and based on whatever principles that speak to them. I'm just saying that in my personal case, I simply don't know if God exists. My only feeling is that "religion" (the organization of religion as opposed to "God"), is a man-made establishment. On that basis I don't disregard it, but I don't take it to be the "truth". Not by a long shot.

But God is another story. If God does exist (and I definitely leave that possibility open), I doubt that he/she/it is based on quaint human concepts that were developed long ago.

But that's just me. I understand that most others probably don't view religion in that way, and that's cool. To each his own.

Edited May 6, 2016 by James
fixed tags and spelling

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='James]The thing is, you can't have it both ways. You have told me in the past that God exists as a matter of fact. If that is the [i]truth[/i'], then it would be great if it were proveable, so that there is no more need for debate.[/quote]

Good point.

Perhaps it is a matter of language that is my problem. But does something have to be proveable in order to be true? I'll give you a story I gave Mitch once, maybe it will be effective.

Jesus shows up at your door tomorrow. You're a little astounded because He's not exactly a regular visitor. He tells you who He is, performs a few miracles to prove it, and by the end of His visit you're fully convinced He is who He says He is.

Now unfortunately you didn't capture this encounter on video and no one else was around to see it. If Jesus left without a trace, your encounter with him is entirely unproveable.

So I guess this means it isn't true?

Now, we could go into "if there were no other witnesses, maybe it was just a figment of your imagination". But assuming you're a fairly stable person and we're not going to get into an imagination vs. reality debate, then it was indeed a true encounter. It just can't be proven.

[quote name='James']By saying that God needs no proof at all, you are essentially having your cake and eating it too. You can continue to say that he exists as a matter of fact, but still feel that you don't need to prove it in any way.[/quote]

I can see how someone would feel that way.

But put yourself back in the person up above's shoes. No one's going to believe him, of course. However, he's 100% sure it happened - he saw the whole thing with his own eyes.

How is he supposed to prove it? If God didn't step in and send down some proof of the encounter at some point, the guy is never going to be able to. So even though he says He exists, he can't prove it in anyway.

[quote name='James]So, while I do not deny that God may exist, I don't [i]know[/i'] as a matter of fact. As a result, I'm not willing to say that he does or doesn't exist. I simply don't know. And I'm okay with not knowing. If I find out one day, great. If not, great. Either revelation would be a massive discovery in my life.[/quote]

Precisely. If you don't know whether or not He exists yourself, then don't make a decision either way until you're sure of either one.

[quote name='James']But the oness is definitely on those should prove God, rather than those who should disprove him.[/quote]

That's where I disagree (which is what started my first post). If God doesn't want Himself proven (and He doesn't, or He would've done so by now methinks), then we aren't going to prove Him. It's up to every individual - it's free choice. According to the Bible (which, again, is up to you to decide whether or not to believe), He will make Himself known to everyone at some point or another. It is then up to them to decide from there what to believe.

[quote name='James']If you say that one has to believe in God for it to become truth or however you would choose to phrase that, then you are essentially saying that God is either a creation of the human mind...or that objective truth is only what each of us chooses to accept or ignore.[/quote]

What I'm saying is what I said above, not necessarily either. I'm saying God will not make Himself known in a universal basis; that is, He's never going to step down and present Himself.

[quote name='James']So yeah. I can't speak for everyone, obviously. I mean, vast vast numbers of people believe in God with no proof whatsoever.[/quote]

Right. And if anyone had proof, it wouldn't be a choice anymore. Again, it's like saying "I don't really wanna believe 2+2=4 today." But if 2+2=4 couldn't be proven, it would be up to the individual to believe. Why would they believe it in the first place? Somehow, 2+2=4 has gotta reveal itself to the individual.

[quote name='James']I'm just saying that in my personal case, I simply don't know if God exists. My only feeling is that "religion" (the organization of religion as opposed to "God"), is a man-made establishment. On that basis I don't disregard it, but I don't take it to be the "truth". Not by a long shot.[/quote]

And nowhere am I saying that that is unacceptable. My point was just that proof of God isn't ever going to be published in Scientific American (or Australian as the case may be).

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='James']By saying that God needs no proof at all, you are essentially having your cake and eating it too. You can continue to say that he exists as a matter of fact, but still feel that you don't need to prove it in any way.[/quote]But for many of us, there's already enough proof that he exists. Look at the complexity behind the structure and function of everything in the Universe. How could everything in the Universe just happen to spontaneusly form? How can atoms just happen to come together to form planets, and then to form life? How can atoms just spontaneously come together to form complex molecules like proteins which in turn come together to from organisms? Even the simplest of organisms have complexity far beyond what we can even begin to imagine.

You look at furniture around around your house, and acknowledge the fact that someone must have built it. Anyone who tells you that the wood just happened to seperate form a tree and come together to form the table would be insane would he not? Meanwhile, the theory that atoms just happened to come together in such incredibly complex ways is widely accepted. However, the theory that these came together in such a way, even over a course of billions of years has a much lower probability than wood coming together to form a table.

Even if these atoms did come together over a course of billions of years as explained by the big bang theory, how did they appear from nothingness?

This concept of nothingness leaves scientists dumbfounded. Matter coming from nothingess even disobeys the law that the amount of matter in the Universe is never changing. At this point some scientists admit the fact that some Divine being started it all, while the others are left embarrased at their vain attempt to disprove the existence of God.

Those who actually read the words sent down by their lord would see he clearly gives us enough evidence of his existence. He even tells us to look at these signs; yet people turn a blind eye towards them.

Here are some verses from the Quran:

[B]078.001 - 078.0016[/B]
Concerning what are they disputing?
Concerning the Great News,
Concerning which they are in disagreement.
Nay! they shall soon come to know
Nay, again, but they will come to know!
Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse,
And the mountains as pegs?
[B]And (have We not) created you in pairs,[/B] *1
And made your sleep for rest,
And We made the night to be a covering,
And made the day as a means of subsistence?
And We have built above you seven strong (heavens),
And have appointed a shining lamp?
And do We not send down from the clouds water in abundance,
That We may produce therewith grain and plants,
And gardens of luxurious growth?

[CENTER]**************************************[/CENTER]

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But all, without exception, will be brought before Us (for judgment).

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PICKTHAL: A token unto them is the dead earth. We revive it, and We bring forth from it grain so that they eat thereof;

036.034
And We make therein gardens of palms and grapevines and We make springs to flow forth in it,

036.035
That they may enjoy the fruits of this (artistry), and their hands made it not. Will they not, then, give thanks?

036.036
[B]Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge. [/B]*1

*Scientific evidence right there. Things he created in pairs that people did not have knowledge of back then are protons and electrons, matter and antimatter, positive and negative electric forces.

036.037
And a Sign for them is the Night: We withdraw therefrom the Day, and behold they are plunged in darkness;

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And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

036.039
And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.

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It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
[CENTER]**************************************[/CENTER]

[QUOTE=James]So, while I do not deny that God may exist, I don't know as a matter of fact. As a result, I'm not willing to say that he does or doesn't exist. I simply don't know. And I'm okay with not knowing. If I find out one day, great. If not, great. Either revelation would be a massive discovery in my life.
[/QUOTE]Massive discovery indeed. But what will you say to your lord after finding out he exists if he does? Afterall, he punishes those who do not believe in him, as Muslims, Jews and Christians believe. [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

Well, I think that real thing that has scientists dumbfounded is that they say that the big bang started out as a little speck that contained the entire universe within it. That doesn't solve the problem of where the universe came from. All the big bang theory does is condense the universe, like it solves the way things were created. I think the big bang theory is just a way to explain it's decompression. The thing that baffles us is: Where the heck did that speck of dust come from? I'm believe it was God.
[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Those who actually read the words sent down by their lord would see he clearly gives us enough evidence of his existence. He even tells us to look at these signs; yet people turn a blind eye towards them.[/quote]
It's not that people try to be blind to them, but try to seek the scientific definition of it. Science is something that humans can understand. Spirituallity is something that (i believe) transcends us, therefore making it hard to believe. We don't really see the beauty of a mountain and automatically accept it as proof of God. We see it as a scientific phenomena. Tectonic (sp?) plates crashed against one another, forcing the earth in the only direction left -- up, which formed the mountain. It's alot easier to understand that than "God made it." It's something we can grip with.

[quote]
But what will you say to your lord after finding out he exists if he does? Afterall, he punishes those who do not believe in him, as Muslims, Jews and Christians believe. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
How do you know that your religion is the right one for sure? Christians believe their way is the only way, I'm not sure about other religions. How can I be sure my religion is the right one? I can't. It's all about faith. Maybe you'll be a goner, since you're not a Christian. What will you say to Jesus? Maybe I'm a goner. What will I say to Allah? That's why I believe that if your religion focuses on being a genuinely good person, helping others, etc., your religion is correct. God wouldn't be so unjust as to punish a virtuous person of another (hypothetically 'wrong') religion, and save a mediocre person from the (hypothetically 'correct') religion.

Personally, I find it cool that Muslims call Jews and Christians 'People of the Book.'

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Altron']How do you know that your religion is the right one for sure? Christians believe their way is the only way, I'm not sure about other religions. How can I be sure my religion is the right one? I can't. It's all about faith. Maybe you'll be a goner, since you're not a Christian. What will you say to Jesus? Maybe I'm a goner. What will I say to Allah? That's why I believe that if your religion focuses on being a genuinely good person, helping others, etc., your religion is correct. God wouldn't be so unjust as to punish a virtuous person of another(hypothetically 'wrong') religion, and save a mediocre person from the (hypothetically 'correct') religion.[/quote]Well for someone to be "sure what religion is correct" it is important for them to actually seek the truth, and once you establish a belief system, practice what it teaches. For instance, many of the Christians who have posted here say they're not very religious and don't go to church a lot, and then they some say [I]they're not really sure if God exists[/I]. But isn't faith in the existance of you lord, the absolute belief in him, the most important aspect of religion? In addition, if they really learned what they're religion teaches they would come to a conclusion of wether God exists or not. For me, I am absolutely sure the Islam is the only way for salvation. Asking me why am sure my religion is correct will not affect my belief. But that's just what I believe. I just htink its silly for people to actually wonder wether their religion is correct if they believe in it. If you believe in your religion, you should be certain.[/COLOR]

[Zeta]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but don't all religions basically worshio God? But with just different names like, God, Allah, etc. So aren't they all the same in the way that they all end with one who has created everything, but with different names? My apologies if I am incorrect, not up to date with all religions here.

I myself am a Christian. I believe in God but I do not go to church. I follow the words of a good friend of mine who said that as long as you believe in him, you are basically good to go, heh. When I am an adult I will of course go to church, but right now I do not have the money that it takes to drive there, nor do I have the time with all my school work and job.