44% Say Restrict Muslim's Rights?

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE]Bullsh-t.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say stop playing the victim here...it's getting real old, real fast. What did you think I was referring to? All Muslim nations? Give me a break.[/QUOTE]You said "at least they get to work in the first place". If I interpreted it wrong, then please go ahead defend your statement and what you implied by it.[/COLOR]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Chabichou][color=#004a6f']You said "at least they get to work in the first place". If I interpreted it wrong, then please go ahead defend your statement and what you implied by it.[/color][/quote]Okay...my meaning was damn clear; you just wanted to go on some self-righteous Ideological rant/crusade and thus chose to ignore what I was saying. Boba Fett understands [i]precisely[/i] what my point was, and frankly, I find it both ignorant and just downright absurd that you didn't get what I was saying, because it was incredibly clear.

You were criticizing America for being friendly with a nation that only restricted clothing. I felt it necessary to mention that your ranting and raving about how Turkey is so "restrictive" and oppressive is utterly asinine, because there are countries and governments (like the Taliban regime) that do far, far, far, far worse to women. And that's why I said, "at least women get to work in the first place."

You're taking issue with Turkey, when the bigger issue at hand is particular Muslim nations and governments that don't grant women [i]even the most basic human rights[/i]. You're trying to continue playing the victim here. Stop it. It's not working, and you're just coming off more and more as a spoiled little brat who isn't getting her way, so she's going to throw a little tantrum. Come on and grow the hell up.

Pardon the bluntness.

EDIT: Oh, and Boba would like his Ottoman Empire points to get some consideration.

[Guest ZeroAnime]

[FONT=Arial]gsg[/FONT] I think that restricting muslim rights is just plane out racist. People like that, who think because of your religon u dont need to have all rights, should be beaten senseless. If we are gonna take away peoples right because we profile on them, then lets just go ahead and arest all black people for stealing the cars they drive. PLANE AND SIMPLE RACISM NEEDS TO BE GOTTEN RID OF.

[James]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]

Israeli's do not go out of their way to kill civilians, but Palestinians do...or the extremist Muslims do. The majority of people on both sides want peace, but it is religion causing this problem. But just a thought...if Palestinians didn't blow themselves up, Israelis wouldn't have any excuse to retaliate. But, if Israeli's stopped returning fire, do you think the bombers would stop? No, because they want Israel to move. So, really, the Palestinians are going to be the ones inciting the attack and retaliations.

[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=#811C3A]I just want to point out that in responding to Chibachou's somewhat extreme comments, it's important to be clear. There are plenty of Israelis who deliberately target Palestinean civilians, as has been covered in the Israel/Palestine thread. There's an enormous, enormous amount of abuse of completely innocent Palestineans by Israelis, particularly IDF members.

The point is, though, both sides are at fault. Any attempt to say that either the Palestineans or the Israelis are responsible for all of the violence and aggrivation is simply false.

In regard to honor killings, I'll say one thing.

I saw an interview with an Iranian woman who's face was burnt with acid (by her father) because she was raped. She -- not the rapist -- was blamed.

To say that honor killings are [i]lies[/i] is [i][b]highly[/b][/i] offensive to those Muslim women who experience such horror. That is one statement that is extremely out of left field, Chibachou.

And I don't know what the hell people are talking about when saying that Turkey is some highly oppressive nation. I have a friend from Turkey (who moved here a few years ago), who has told me many things about it. I'm not saying Turkey is ideal, but Turkey is basically no different to Germany or France. And it could be argued that France is more oppressive than Turkey, in terms of religious freedoms. lol

Anyway, there's a basic problem here. You've got people who are putting more weight on one side or another, which really isn't right. These matters are far more complex than is being presented here.

[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=James][color=#811C3A]I saw an interview with an Iranian woman who's face was burnt with acid (by her father) because she was raped. She -- not the rapist -- was blamed.

To say that honor killings are [i]lies[/i] is [i][b]highly[/b][/i] offensive to those Muslim women who experience such horror. That is one statement that is extremely out of left field, Chibachou.[/color][/QUOTE]But those are obviously unislamic acts. Those men probably even commit adultery all the time and think they can get away with it. They don't even follow islam properly. Honour killings occured even before Islam was presented.

Think about this statement: "Muslims do honour killings when their women are raped."

People who do honour killings are not muslim. That goes against what Islam teaches. Therefore, the statement that "muslims do honour killings" is false.[/COLOR]

[Manic Webb]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]But those are obviously unislamic acts. Those men probably even commit adultery all the time and think they can get away with it. They don't even follow islam properly. Honour killings occured even before Islam was presented.

Think about this statement: "Muslims do honour killings when their women are raped."

People who do honour killings are not muslim. That goes against what Islam teaches. Therefore, the statement that "muslims do honour killings" is false.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
While such acts are (obviously) not a part of Islamic dogma, the men committing these acts [i]were[/i] Muslim. That's not to say [i]all[/i] Muslims perform honor killings, but it's apparent that honor killings have been performed by Muslims. Just because someone performs an act that goes against their religion's teachings, that doesn't mean they don't associate themselves with that religion. The Spanish Inquisition was performed by Christians, but I'll betcha by golly wow no one's gonna say they weren't Christian and/or Catholic.

[quote name='James']The point is, though, both sides are at fault.[/quote]
[i]Thank you![/i] I've been following this thread for a while, and I just have to say that anyone who places the blame on Israeli/Palestinian conflicts strictly on one side obviously hasn't been paying attention. Both sides are behaving foolishly, and all in the name of a holy ground they're practically desecrating with violence. The land must not mean [i]that[/i] much to them, I guess.

[James]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]But those are obviously unislamic acts. Those men probably even commit adultery all the time and think they can get away with it. They don't even follow islam properly. Honour killings occured even before Islam was presented.

Think about this statement: "Muslims do honour killings when their women are raped."

People who do honour killings are not muslim. That goes against what Islam teaches. Therefore, the statement that "muslims do honour killings" is false.[/color][/QUOTE]
[color=#811C3A]But now you're changing your story. Earlier you said that honor killings do not happen.

That is incorrect. They [i]do [/i]happen.

Not only do they happen, but they are considered acceptable in many communities; communities that follow a more hardcore interpretation of Islam.

Nobody is saying that these people "follow Islam properly". That entirely misses the point. The point is that these killings [i]do [/i]occur in some Islamic states and that they are often considered acceptable by the powers that be (whether that is the Government or many within the religious establishment).[/color]

[Break]

[quote name='Zeta][i']If we aren't the patrolman who will be? The Romans were the patrolman in their times. THe British were the patrolman during their reign. Why should we be any different? We feel the need to help better civilization across the world. And when people decide to attack us for it is their own fault that something may happen to them. We don't like to see children starving on the street due to a civil war between the people and some rich idiots who want control of everything. We try to help others people. We try to bring order to the world so a small conflict doesn't explode and turn into World War III.[/i][/quote]
[color=darkorchid]No one really needs to be the patrolman. Yes the Romans were, but compared to America's power now, they were a [i]much[/i] mightier force in their time. At least the Romans actually had an empire.

Again, the British were so much more powerful than you. We had a huge empire, I can't remember the exact figures, but we owned something like half the world - if not that it was somewhere in the region of 40%. And by the way, we weren't patrolmen, we were just greedy for a big empire. You are being patrolmen.

You don't like seeing children starving on the streets? Do you want to go help in Sudan then?

"rich idiots who want control of everything." Be careful what you say and think about that statement. Do you know any rich idiots who want control of everything? *cough*America*cough*

If there ever is a World War III, I'll know who to blame: America, for not trying hard enough to bring "order" to the world. Do something good or do nothing at all.

Oh and the difference between America and the old British Empire and the Romans - there is a media around now and it is a very powerful force. You seem to get a lot of airtime on the news because of what you do around the world.[/color]
[QUOTE=Boba Fett][i]Two words.

Armenian Genocide.[/i][/QUOTE]
[color=darkorchid]So true... the Ottoman Empire was not ideal at all, by the 1900s it was the weakest in the world too.[/color]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Zeta']If we aren't the patrolman who will be?[/quote]

[color=green]Since when did America become the world's police? If anything, we should be retreating from such an active role in world affairs. While isolationism isn't acceptable, we shouldn't be stretched out so thin militarily across the globe.

America needs to look out for it's interests around the world. Nothing more, nothing less.[/color]



[quote name='Zeta']Why should we be any different? We feel the need to help better civilization across the world.[/quote]


[color=green]We shouldn't interfere through use of force unless it's imperative to secure US global interests or unless invited by that nation. Otherwise, it's none of our business.

If anything the US needs to give out less aid. We pour money into Africa, the Middle East and various other troubled areas of the world, while we still have problems at home.[/color]

[quote name='Zeta']And when people decide to attack us for it is their own fault that something may happen to them.[/quote]

[color=green]May? If someone attack the United States, they better expect some trouble.[/color]

[quote name='Zeta']\We don't like to see children starving on the street due to a civil war between the people and some rich idiots who want control of everything. [/quote]

[color=green]We should try and work with other countries to mediate such disputes in other countries, or provide aid to those being oppressed if it comes to that.

Stepping in militarily and telling another country how to run it's affairs is not only risky to our troops, but makes us look like a bully.

Imagine if France had decided the American Civil War was so terrible that something had to be done, and sent troops to suppress both sides. It's better to let nations settle their own affairs than to intercede, unless there's a threat to our security/interests.[/color]

[quote name='Zeta']We try to help others people. We try to bring order to the world so a small conflict doesn't explode and turn into World War III.[/quote]

[color=green]It's not our place. Pure and simple.[/color]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Chabichou']When the war on Iraq started, Bush accused Iraq of being in defiance of 14 UN resolutions. Meanwhile, Israel is in defiance of over 60. [/quote]
Let's look at the big picture here. If we invaded israel, OUR ALLIES, The entire muslim world would attack them, thus envoking what we call a WORLD WAR. Then everyone would revolt in every single country and start suicide bombing, just because it worked for the palestinians. If Israel gives in, we all suffer. Except for the pelestinians, who will sit in the west bank and see what they have caused. It won't be pretty. And the USA will be the only nation willing to help anyone.

[quote name='Chabichou'] maybe if you kept you're noses out of other country's business' you wouldn't have all these terrorist attacks coming at you.[/quote]
Do you know what would happen if we retracted all of our troops to American soil? The world would go to HELL. Our troops made the yugoslavakian breakup mostly non-violent. Our troops freed the afghanis from oppressive taliban rule. And also, just to hit you close to home, what would happen if the palestinians hadn't revolted against israel? Then this stupid conflict of blowing up 5 people at a time wouldn't have happened

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

Well to get back to the original topic I honestly think that regardless of how accurate the poll was, it is still quite sickening that people would want to restrict the rights of others based on their religion. A very similar thing occured in Ireland during the 1700/1800s when the English Monarchy restricted the rights of Irish Catholics simply because they were Catholics, and the English Monarchy at the time were Anglican Protestant. In every faith there are extremists, be that Catholicism or other Christian creeds, Judaism or Islam, just because some extremist elements receive more attention that others do not mean that they do not exist. Honestly I don't feel like getting involved in the moral rights and wrongs of Americas doing across the world.[/SIZE]

[Zeta]

Perhaps my using patrolman was a bit strong, my apologies.

Watching out for our interests sounds a little bit greedy to me. That is exactly what Chabichou will have then said. We only look out for those that we have interests with? That in my mind is just plain greed. You see someone laying down in the street after having breaking their leg. You have no interest in them, but you are going to help them. It is the same thing with the country as a whole. If there is a country that is in the midst of a civil war, that peace-talks have not been able to settle and things are only getting worse, why shouldn't we help them?

Boba, you know what I meant if someone attacked us.

[i]We should try and work with other countries to mediate such disputes in other countries, or provide aid to those being oppressed if it comes to that.

Stepping in militarily and telling another country how to run it's affairs is not only risky to our troops, but makes us look like a bully. [/i]

We try to work with other countries. We tried to work with Iraq with the UN inspectors. We tried to work with the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden, we had a peace settlement going between Israel and Palestine. Obviously they didn't work out. We are trying to set up democracies in these countries. A government system that provides for the people and by the people to the best of it's ability. With us being the example for a working democracy of course bits and pieces of ways will get transfered over. I don't know about anyone else, but I would prefer deomcracy over some tyrant/dictator.


[i]It's not our place. Pure and simple.[/i]

Only helping countries with our interests is basically saying to countries that we don't try to help that they don't matter.

EDIT: Removed a section to make it legible and easy to understand, will repost it a bit.



[i]"rich idiots who want control of everything." Be careful what you say and think about that statement. Do you know any rich idiots who want control of everything? *cough*America*cough*[/i]

If we wanted control of everything we wouldn't help other countries onto their feet. We would install our own leader and it will basically be a puppet government. And please, it is obvious what I meant by some rich idiot, someone who wants complete control of their country.

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]In regards to the article, I think people are blowing it out of proportion. It is 715 people for what is probably a school project. With such strong "pro-freedom" undertones in much of society, I think if anything at all was restricted large portions of America- even non-Muslims - would have something to say about it. It would be a ignorant action to take, anyway. There are extremists in every religion- well, really.. anything in human hands can be taken to a new edge that it wasn't originally 'meant' to be taken to. You can't blame the idea, I think you have to blame the minority that took it there in the first place. I have the fondest hope that people don't fade into that ignorant, black and white idea of all Muslims thinking the same way.

I think you're being a bit too loud, Chabichou. Perhaps you need to stop playing the victim, hm? Something smart might come out of your mouth then, yes?[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Just a note, people. [b]They want to keep tabs on them, not lock them up.[/b][/size]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Zeta']Watching out for our interests sounds a little bit greedy to me. That is exactly what Chabichou will have then said.[/quote]Predicting what I will say....tsk, tsk, tsk,...lol. Sounds to me like everyone is against me. You even tell each other to watch what you say so I don't have a good enough argument. Apperently, everything I say is wrong, and I'm just some extremist who supports killings of innocent people, though I 've repeatedly said I don't. People use sentence fragments and leave out importanat parts of my sentences, they choose to ignore certain important points I bring up, and not even touch on them, they tell me I'm being biast while they are clearly being so themsleves, and they pull accusations like: "Muslims blow themsleves up", as though it happens all the time and only Muslims do it, and "Chabichou is playing the victim", when I am merely presenting the injustices occuring against my people.

Well let me get my main point out to all of you:

It is wrong to look at a person's religion when he/she does something bad, and use that as an excuse to fear and discriminate against other people of that religion. This clearly happens to Muslims far more than other religions, and that's a clear fact these days. You can't just say: "Oh well, they ruin it for the rest of the Muslims so it's their fault". Well, you can also blame yourselves for giving in to propaganda spread by the media in the first place. Let me get this staright: So because Osama bin Laden decided to bomb the World Trade Center, it's his fault that Muslims get persecuted? My mother was insulted and spat on by a man after it happened. I think that jerk was at fault too, wouldn't you agree? Some people attacked and killed muslims too, so they aren't at fault for their actions?

Same thing applies to suicide bombers. So it's their fault only that other palestinians get killed by the israeli soldiers? I think soldiers who fire into crowds of unarmed palestinians while they are merely protesting are at fault too? They are responsible for their own actions, the bombers didn't make them shoot at the crowds. Many of you simply shift all the blame to the bombers when it clearly isn't completely their fault. What they are completely at fault for are the bombings, not the killings of palestinians.

I'd also like to point out that I'm tired of being insluted:

[QUOTE]I think you're being a bit too loud, Chabichou. Perhaps you need to stop playing the victim, hm? Something smart might come out of your mouth then, yes?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Bah. Too tired to go into the other threads to resurrect delightful comments I've seen from Chabichou. However, she is extremist in her views, and many people on the other side of this argument are failing to acknowledge their bias as well.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Really how can anyone care about your opinion or other muslims rights when so many sound like you?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]I don't know why anyone here cares what your opinions are...[/QUOTE]

And how about you all stop putting words in mouth that I didn't say, and twisting my sentences around to presnet them as though I was some extremist?
[/COLOR]

[James]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]


It is wrong to look at a person's religion when he/she does something bad, and use that as an excuse to fear and discriminate against other people of that religion. This clearly happens to Muslims far more than other religions, and that's a clear fact these days. You can't just say: "Oh well, they ruin it for the rest of the Muslims so it's their fault". Well, you can also blame yourselves for giving in to propaganda spread by the media in the first place. Let me get this staright: So because Osama bin Laden decided to bomb the World Trade Center, it's his fault that Muslims get persecuted? My mother was insulted and spat on by a man after it happened. I think that jerk was at fault too, wouldn't you agree? Some people attacked and killed muslims too, so they aren't at fault for their actions?[/color][/quote]

[color=#811C3A]Nobody here is advocating discrimination against Muslims as far as I can tell.

I think you're missing the point, though. What people are saying is that the extremists have made it more difficult for every Muslim -- regardless of how moderate they are or regardless what country they live in.

Nobody here, based on what I've read, is saying "Oh it's okay to persecute Muslims because they've brought it on themselves". Such a statement would be ridiculous.

I think the main thing is, people need to be fair. You are sitting there and telling us that all of the things we hear about some Muslim communities (from honor killings to other things), are simply media propaganda -- despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

The problem is, you are being far too one-sided about the issue. [i]You[/i] are the one peson here who is succumbing to media propaganda, moreso than anyone else in the thread.

Other people here are simply trying to even things out and provide some perspective. The whole "everyone hates Muslims and Muslims are totally misunderstood" is really a silly statement -- again, nobody is saying that the majority of Muslims are extreme people. We know for a fact that they aren't. However, it's also true that Muslim extremism is a serious problem in the world today. And it's also true that several Muslim states are highly oppressive of their people.

Again, it's very important to be able to provide a distinction here.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Same thing applies to suicide bombers. So it's their fault only that other palestinians get killed by the israeli soldiers? I think soldiers who fire into crowds of unarmed palestinians while they are merely protesting are at fault too? They are responsible for their own actions, the bombers didn't make them shoot at the crowds. Many of you simply shift all the blame to the bombers when it clearly isn't completely their fault. What they are completely at fault for are the bombings, not the killings of palestinians.[/quote][/color]

[color=#811C3A]The problem is, you're unwilling to look at the broader political issues.

When a suicide bomber kills innocent civilians in Israel, what is the result of that? Apart from the actual grief, these bombers are creating further tension and distrust. They are also [i]perpetuating[/i] intolerance, negative stereotypes and racial hatred.

So, when an Israeli soldier fires on an innocent Palestinean, what is the cause of that? It's not just because the Israeli soldier is evil or something like that -- his reaction is a result of the conditions of the war. That is to say, he's frustrated and he's feeling very intolerant of Palestineans as a result of suicide bombers and such. In other words, he is the direct result of the tension that is built up during the conflict.

This is not to say that he is [i]right[/i] in indiscriminantly killing people. But nobody is saying that. What people are saying is that the suicide bombers are hurting Palestinean people, by providing a motivation for Israeli oppression and violence. And that's the point.

By the same token, the Israeli actions against Palestineans are largely what drive Palestineans to become suicide bombers. If you feel totally hopeless and you are being violently oppressed by the Israelis, chances are, suicide bombing may seem like a reasonable way out. This is the thinking of a person who is living in a desperate situation.

So what I'm saying is that the violence on both sides is the result of a circle of actions, so to speak. Suicide bombings bring the Israeli military down harder and harder on average Palestineans. Israeli oppression generates more anger, hostility and suicide bombings.

The big problem is that you've presented your arguments in very one-sided, propaganda-laced terms. In reality, it's critical to be as objective as possible and to understand that the situation is more complicated than you are suggesting.[/color]

[quote=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
And how about you all stop putting words in mouth that I didn't say, and twisting my sentences around to presnet them as though I was some extremist?
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#811C3A]Hang on a minute. Weren't you the one saying that you wouldn't care if an Israeli soldier was killed? That all of them are bad?

And weren't you the one who said that honor killings simply don't happen, when they clearly do?

You are responsible for your own comments, Chabichou. And you've made some pretty extreme ones in this thread. The resulting responses from others are to be expected when such statements are made.[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=James][color=#811C3A]Hang on a minute. Weren't you the one saying that you wouldn't care if an Israeli soldier was killed? That all of them are bad?

And weren't you the one who said that honor killings simply don't happen, when they clearly do?[/color][/QUOTE]Well, many and probably most Israeli soldiers target civilians, so they do deserve to die. How is this an extremist statement? They kill innocent people. Murderers get the death punishment in America. When an Israeli soldier targets and kills civilians, that is murder, so by all means he deserves to die. When Boba Fett kept on stating that it is a complete lie that they target civilians, no one told him "it is highly offensive to palestinian civilians that experience that suffering". :therock:

And I said honour killings don't happen in Islam. And then people pulled out comments accusing my race: "Your people do honour killings". How is that not extremist? If I was raped, god forbid, my family would go at length to find the bastard and kill [I][B]him.[/B][/I][/COLOR]

[Harry]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Well, many and probably most Israeli soldiers target civilians, so they do deserve to die. How is this an extremist statement? [/COLOR][/quote]
It's an extreme statement because you're saying people deserve to die for no tangible reason. You don't know that they target civilians specifically, you have no proof and have probably heard it from whatreallyhappened.com or whatever other trash you read.

[quote]And I said honour killings don't happen in Islam. And then people pulled out comments accusing my race: "Your people do honour killings". How is that not extremist? If I was raped, god forbid, my family would go at length to find the bastard and kill him.[/quote]
It happens in Islam because Islam directly influences the culture in the middle east. Now if these honor killings happened in Canada, where Islam doesn't affect the culture, you would be correct in saying that they don't happen in Islam.

[James]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Well, many and probably most Israeli soldiers target civilians, so they do deserve to die. How is this an extremist statement? They kill innocent people. Murderers get the death punishment in America. When an Israeli soldier targets and kills civilians, that is murder, so by all means he deserves to die. When Boba Fett kept on stating that it is a complete lie that they target civilians, no one told him "it is highly offensive to palestinian civilians that experience that suffering". :therock:

And I said honour killings don't happen in Islam. And then people pulled out comments accusing my race: "Your people do honour killings". How is that not extremist? If I was raped, god forbid, my family would go at length to find the bastard and kill [I][B]him.[/B][/I][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#811C3A]Many and probably most? See, you're willing to make these assumptions without any real data to support it.

I guarantee you, most Israeli soldiers do not target civilians. The minority who do [i]should[/i] be punished. But I'm not going to make a ridiculous generalization that "all the bastards should die". That's not constructive and doesn't help anyone.

You said that honor killings do not happen, that they are a "lie" perpetuated by media propaganda.

And that is simply incorrect.

Not only do they happen, but they are endorsed in certain parts of the Middle East. I should repeat, nobody is saying that these killings are "legal in Islam" or whatever. What we're saying is that they happen in some corners of Islamic society and they are considered appropriate by certain groups.

Honor killings are pretty unique to the Middle East, so, saying that is not racist or anything. It's just the truth.

But again, let's make a distinction rather than applying these broad brush strokes. People aren't saying that all Muslims engage in honor killings, or that mainstream Islam supports them. Again, you have to make a distinction between "mainstream" and "extreme" Islam.

It's like Christianity and the KKK. Do most Christians support the KKK? No. But the KKK is nonetheless an extreme arm of Christianity, in the same way that Islamic fundamentalists are an extreme arm of Islam.[/color]

[quote=Harry]It happens in Islam because Islam directly influences the culture in the middle east. Now you living in Canada,you would not expect to see that many honor killings because Islam does not affect Canadian culture.
[/quote]

[color=#811C3A]But again, let's be clear in saying that it happens in the far more conservative Islamic areas within the Middle East. Honor killings certainly don't happen across the entire region, they only occur in some specific places (which have far more conservative, traditionalist populations, who practice a more conservative/repressive form of Islam).[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Harry']It happens in Islam because Islam directly influences the culture in the middle east. Now if these honor killings happened in Canada, where Islam doesn't affect the culture, you would be correct in saying that they don't happen in Islam.[/quote]Actually, Islam is not the inflence because honor killings occured before even before Islam. Islam forbids it. So how can you say that Islam influences the culture? It's the culture itslef that is ignoring the religion. Yes, I do admit that it was Arabs who did honour killings in the past, but that was from certain twisted ideas incorporated into the culture by some arabs. It's not a general part of the Arab culture itself.[/COLOR]

[Zeta]

In regards to the section of my previous post that was revised:

To Boba I believe.

You said something along the lines of "we shouldn't be the patrolman." Now if it isn't us, who should it be? There has to be someone who tries to bring a sense of order and stability to the world. If not, it will get other countries stuck in the state of mind that they can do whatever they want. And if countries are in that state of mind nuclear missles could be flying around. Doesn't it make sense that the one country who can bring countries out of that mindset be the one who can actually stand up to what they believe, or try to get countries out of that mindset.

We sent aid to Western Europe after WWII. Without this aid they would have taken much longer to have gotten their war-torn economies off the ground. Communist nations could have sprung up all across Europe. We sent aid to Japan as well. Now look at western Euopre and Japan. Thriving countries. We sent aid there, and it was met without oppostion, and look what resulted.

And again onto your point of protecting our interests and nothing more. That is a very greedy statement, in my mind at least. That is saying "you provide us with nothing, so we will leave you to your own devices." That will only tarnish the image of the US. There would only be a select few who get our aid, we would be picking favorites.

The rest of the topic.


[QUOTE]Same thing applies to suicide bombers. So it's their fault only that other palestinians get killed by the israeli soldiers? I think soldiers who fire into crowds of unarmed palestinians while they are merely protesting are at fault too? They are responsible for their own actions, the bombers didn't make them shoot at the crowds. Many of you simply shift all the blame to the bombers when it clearly isn't completely their fault. What they are completely at fault for are the bombings, not the killings of palestinians.[/QUOTE]

If the suicide bombers hadn't of done what they did in the first place, they soldiers would have no need to attack them. I share the same views on this as James does (one side doing something, then the other side retaliating in a never ending circle).

Well to make this post short, I will just say that my views are the same as James. *shrug* Saves me typing time and everyone reading time, lol.

[Sword Breaker]

Well, Chabichou, I can understand why you would hate Isrealie soldiers, but I find that the statment "Many, and probably most, Isrealie soldiers target civillians" to be a bit of generalization. Maybe it's just because you only hear about the soldiers who rape and kill civillians, and that it leads you to belive that all Isrealites are evil. If this is the case, I don't think a minority should be held againts the majority in such a manor. But hey, what do I know? Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. I've never been there, nor do I follow it on the news... Well, that's just how I feal.

Besides that, I agree with everytihng Chabichou says. Islam teaches peace, not Suicide bombings and honour killings!!!

Oh, and Zeta, I don't think that there should be one "patrolemen," at least not in the sense you say it, but rather there should be no wars, that all the conflicts can be resolved peacefully. I don't mean negotiation. What I mean is... Well, I'll give you an example.

Canadian Peace Keepers spend their lives in third world Asian countries, risking their lives to take away the enamies weapons. Not their lives. Now, does this not seem like a MUCH better idea then simply killing them all? had it been done this way, things would have been much better. Under the bombardment of US missiles, countless ancient artifacts from Sumer and Akkad have been completely destroyed, taking with them the key to unlocking the very past of mankind. Nothing is worth this price. Nothing.

I do realize, however, that some parts of the US attack did, in fact, requier the force it recived, but only because it was necesary. Bombing the crap out of Baghdad, and other Iraqie cities, has led to countless innocent deaths! In my opinion, that is simply another form of murder. No one should have to be killed by a US missle, simply because of megolomaniac in charge! If the US is gonna kill people, at least kill armed people. It's a wonder the US gets away with what it does.

"It is my conviction that killing under the guise of war is nothing but an act of murder."
--Albert Einstien

[Zeta]

I am curious about these peace keepers. How do they go about taking the weapons of the enemies away? If they found a way to take away enemy army weapons, I would be content with the US doing just that. And what if they fire upon you? Just forget about it and leave the weapons. I am sure the US would do just that if it were possible in these areas. But if the enemy is firing upon you, you aren't going to go in there without firing your weapon back.

We tried to get UN inspectors to check for weapons in Iraq. Based on the evidence we had at the time we believe they did have them we attacked. I admit the evidence was greatly flawed, but there was no way for the President to know [i]at the time[/i] that it was flawed information.

Yes I am saddened by the loss of ancient artifacts. I am a huge ancient history nerd. But aren't the insurgents fighting from ancient sites and among ancient buildings? If they are firing on US soldiers from there the soldiers are going to fight back. If anything blame should be put onto the insurgents for choosing such a place to attack from. We try to avoid such places as those.

Innocent casualties are a part of war. Yes I am saddened by them, but it is something that should be expected.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Sword Breaker]Canadian Peace Keepers spend their lives in third world Asian countries, risking their lives to take away the enamies weapons. Not their lives. Now, does this not seem like a MUCH better idea then simply killing them all? had it been done this way, things would have been much better. Under the bombardment of US missiles, countless ancient artifacts from Sumer and Akkad have been completely destroyed, taking with them the key to unlocking the very past of mankind. Nothing is worth this price. Nothing.

I do realize, however, that some parts of the US attack did, in fact, requier the force it recived, but only because it was necesary. Bombing the crap out of Baghdad, and other Iraqie cities, has led to countless innocent deaths! In my opinion, that is simply another form of murder. No one should have to be killed by a US missle, simply because of megolomaniac in charge! If the US is gonna kill people, at least kill armed people. It's a wonder the US gets away with what it does.

"It is my conviction that killing under the guise of war is nothing but an act of murder."
--Albert Einstien[/QUOTE]Yeah, the reason I get so mad at the U.S and Israel is that civilian casualties really can be avoided. The first day the U.S bombed Iraq, a civilian was killed. There really must have been a better way to carry out your first attack rather than just sending a missile to Iraq. When the assasination of Ahmed Yaseen was carried out, it really wasn't neccesary to send a missile directly at an old man in wheelchair. Not to mention all the bystanders that were killed. There are other ways of carrying out an assasination that don't kill others in the process. Same thing applies when they assasined Alrantizi by bombing his car and killing other inncocent bystanders.[/COLOR]

[Sword Breaker]

Zeta, when I said that artifacts were being damaged in Iraq, I was refering more to those damaged by artillary bombardments. Oh, and I stumbled upon this.

[I]Ur, the traditional birthplace of Abraham and site of one of the most well-preserved stepped pyramids, called a ziggurat, is a treasure that archaeologists fear is endangered by the war in Iraq. Last week, the U.S. 141st Mechanized Infantry Battalion was dug in there, according to media reports.[/I]

Now, I understand that this was in 2003, but it did still happen, and it is not just the insurgent's fault that these artifacts were being damaged.

Oh, and Zeta, I'm sorry, but I was mislead. It is only usful in solving conflicts between to nations, but not in an attack such as this. Still, I tihnk the entire attack could have been avoided, and that countless of innocents are dieing due to this. We all know that no nation could stand up to the sheer numbers of the US troops, so why waste countless lives, not to mention dollers, by wasting Iraqi buildings and killing innocents? I don't see the use in it.

Yeah, Chabichou, that assassination was an atrocity! If your going to kill a guy, poison or sniper rifles don't cause any colateral damage! I don't support the killing period, but at least don't kill those who have done nothing!!

Check out this link, and you'll se that many US soldiers kill civilians, even if some were accidents, and others were suicides, but so maqny of these deaths could have been avoided. It truely makes me sad. Just check out the largest amount of deaths. it almost made me throw up. In the 19 hospitals one, click details. it says that 30% were women and children. Dispicable.

[URL=http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/]The Atrocity![/URL]