44% Say Restrict Muslim's Rights?

[Zeta]

You still haven't answered my question as to how they go about taking the weapons of the enemy.

[QUOTE]The first day the U.S bombed Iraq, a civilian was killed. There really must have been a better way to carry out your first attack rather than just sending a missile to Iraq.[/QUOTE]

You and others are asking way too much from our military. Sure they have equipment that helps minimize as much casualties, but it won't happen. If you can point me to a war without civilian casualties, please do. I will honor that military as having the perfect military without civilian casualties.

Going about war in the way you advocate would take on helluva time to complete(pardon my language). We would have to go door to door, weed out the innocents from the "enemy". Impossible. You have much too much faith in technology.

Sword, I am sure that they weren't entrenched [i]at[/i] the period, but probably in the general area. If I am wrong, my apologies.

[QUOTE]We all know that no nation could stand up to the sheer numbers of the US troops, so why waste countless lives, not to mention dollers, by wasting Iraqi buildings and killing innocents? I don't see the use in it.[/QUOTE]

If we ALL know that then why are they fighting against us? More enemy is killed than innocents. Give our military, hell any military, credit enough for that. No military is perfect, there will be civilian casualties no matter how hard they try to avoid them. We could just bomb every single building in every single town and achieve the same effect: putting a stop to the insurgents. Naturally we don't. Why? Because we are trying to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible.

[Harry]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Actually, Islam is not the inflence because honor killings occured before even before Islam. Islam forbids it. So how can you say that Islam influences the culture? It's the culture itslef that is ignoring the religion. [/COLOR][/quote]
I'm sorry but do you actually believe this? Islam controls so much of middle eastern daily life, but it doesn't control this?

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Harry']I'm sorry but do you actually believe this? Islam controls so much of middle eastern daily life, but it doesn't control this?[/quote]I think I know my own religion Harry, and I know what it teaches. Yes Islam controls many aspects of life in the middle east, yet many people choose to ignore certain parts of what the religion teaches. Women are elevated to the status of human in Islam. They are given the right to vote, to share their opinions, to own property and to seek education. Before Islam certain Arab tribes even buried their newborn females alive. If adultery is strictly forbidden in Islam, then why to the kings of Saudi Arabia think its okay for themselves to commit it? They ignore the fact that Islam sees no difference between a slave and a king and that all people are equal before the eyes of God. They are clearly ignoring what the religion teaches.[/COLOR]

[Zeta]

You know the religion as it is supposed to be yes. But seeing as how you don't live in the Middle East, there is no way for you to know how it exactly is over there. Just because you are of the religion doesn't mean you know it. I say mosey on over there and you will see how different it is than what you have been preaching here.

It comes down to one basic thing: Do the people over there follow what is taught verbatum(sp)? I highly doubt that. With all you say that the religion teaches, I do not see it happening over there.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Zeta]You know the religion as it is supposed to be yes. But seeing as how you don't live in the Middle East, there is no way for you to know how it exactly is over there. Just because you are of the religion doesn't mean you know it. I say mosey on over there and you will see how different it is than what you have been preaching here.

It comes down to one basic thing: Do the people over there follow what is taught verbatum(sp)? I highly doubt that. With all you say that the religion teaches, I do not see it happening over there.[/QUOTE]First of all, I have lived in the middle east before. I also have many arab friends who live there, or who visit it often. At least they know what is going on, so I do have sources of information.

Not all people follow the religion properly, but the majority of good people try very hard to. You people present the atrocities that occur in the middle east as though they are a normal part of culture and that it is legal there or something. Honestly, if a serial rapist was on the loose, the government isn't going to allow people to start killing their daughters. Really people, have some common sense.[/COLOR]

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]Honestly, if a serial rapist was on the loose, the government isn't going to allow people to start killing their daughters.[/QUOTE]

I don't believe we said they would. Someone just said that it does occur, when you said it doesn't.

[QUOTE]First of all, I have lived in the middle east before. I also have many arab friends who live there, or who visit it often. At least they know what is going on, so I do have sources of information. [/QUOTE]

Things can change you know. I expect you will find a much different place than what you lived in.

I see more people going against what is taught in your religion than do.*shrug* I am probably just not looking hard enough. But it again comes back to the few extremists painting a bad picture for the whole. Common sense. It happens in school, jobs, why can't it happen with religion?

Look at the Crusades and the Inquisition(sp) in Spain. Christianity doesn't teach us that our religion is better, and that you should get rid of the Muslims(can't remember exactly who they were fought against >_>) Yet they said they were doing it in the name of God. Same thing with the Middle East. They believe they are doing it in the name of God. Obviously not following what is taught.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Jihad is a very important and fundamental part of Islam. In its general sense it is just self-exertion, struggle, etc., both inwardly and outwardly. But in its outward sense, it refers to the combat of forces that would seek to destroy the Islamic World, the equilibrium of self and so forth. Those Muslims that view Israel in that sense (and the vast majority does, there's no denying it, it's just that most of them don't want to die over it), and do not embrace jihad, can actually be viewed as NOT following "proper" Islam.

Now, what's "mainstream" and what's "proper" may be two different things. Islamic scholars may disagree on the meaning of Jihad to some degree, even. But to say that those who fight non-Muslims in whatever fashion (including the terrorists) are not following "correct Islam" is to be disingenuous or misinformed about what the Qur'an/Hadith teaches.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Zeta']I don't believe we said they would. Someone just said that it does occur, when you said it doesn't.[/quote]Okay, okay. I apoligize for saying "it doesn't happen". I didn't really mean it. I was just so angry that people choose to associate it as part of our normal culture and religion. Sorry. Okay?[/COLOR]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']The first day the U.S bombed Iraq, a civilian was killed.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]While it is always regrettable when an innocent civilian is killed by US forces, such things happen in war. The US government and it?s armed forces take every precaution within reason to prevent such terrible accidents from occurring. Many of these measures put troops lives at risk.

In the end, we?re doing our utmost.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']When the assasination of Ahmed Yaseen was carried out, it really wasn't neccesary to send a missile directly at an old man in wheelchair.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]Yaseen was a disgusting, racist and utterly evil man. He was responsible for dozens of suicide bombings and linked heavily to several terrorist organizations. Whenever he appeared in public, he was surrounded by crowds (and deliberately children).

Israel?s decision to kill him was appropriate, and the deaths of those around him regrettable. This was something that had to be done, period. In my opinion, he got off to easy.


As a final note, I?d like to add that the Palestinian people should be the very last to criticize America for failing to protect innocent bystanders. Suicide bombers deliberately target civilians. I know you don?t support this, but it happens. If you?re worried about protecting innocent people, you should start there.[/color]

[James]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Okay, okay. I apoligize for saying "it doesn't happen". I didn't really mean it. I was just so angry that people choose to associate it as part of our normal culture and religion. Sorry. Okay?[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=#811C3A]But nobody (apart from Harry, maybe) is saying that honor killings are a normal part of religion and culture in the middle east.

What is being said is that in some places, they are considered acceptable and that they [i]do[/i] happen. It's very important to understand the points that are being made here. I don't think that Boba or myself in particular are attempting to make vast generalizations.[/color]

[Morpheus]

[QUOTE=Chabichou]As for history, ancient Arab tribes lived there thousands of years before.

they hurt palestinians on purpose.[/QUOTE]
As for history, I believe it was the french, spanish, british, mexicans, and texans in the US before we were there. But now it is ours.

And a suicide bomber does it on accident?

[Mitch]

Always remember there's ways to twist numbers to make them say what you want them to, and also that you have to make sure a poll is done with a random, diverse group of people, otherwise it won't represent an entire sum of people.

[Mykul]

you know something, you're judgements of Americans in general are just as skewed as you think our judgements of you are. So i guess the terrible acts of a HANDFUL of radical soldiers against terrorist prisoners is a fine basis for saying that the whole American army is incensitve and cruel?

and the people who's votes were recorded in that poll dont reflect much of the American population's feelings, i believe. The months after the september 11th bombing were bad, with Arabic looking people getting run off the road and such. Now, however, (at least everyone i know my age) has had the "all people are different" talk. We know the difference between a terrorist and a Muslim.

And how can you sit there and only point fingers at America for treating Muslims badly? Did you know that in the majority of French schools it is ILLEGAL for Muslim girls to wear head coverings? They get suspended for wearing them. At least my government isnt so...well...French!

[natetron46]

[QUOTE=James][color=#811C3A]But nobody (apart from Harry, maybe) is saying that honor killings are a normal part of religion and culture in the middle east.

What is being said is that in some places, they are considered acceptable and that they [i]do[/i] happen. It's very important to understand the points that are being made here. I don't think that Boba or myself in particular are attempting to make vast generalizations.[/color][/QUOTE]
This used to happen in the Catholic church with the crusades and such. In that same way, thye embarked on a holy war, that ended up doing nothing, but brining turmoil and death to the middle east.
I really dont beleive this statistic though. I cant beleive (1) that people are so stupid as to think that all muslims act this way and (2) people think that it should be done, its against the Bill of Rights for God sakes!

[outlawstar69]

I think alot of the confusion here is from the fact that none of us have the same "political and culteral mindset", so to speak, because obviously we all come from very different backrounds, and were all raised differently. (Yes, I know that is a "Duh..." statement.)

Chabichou, I take it that you are a Muslim who was born, or at least raised in Canada, correct? But, you have family and friends who came from the areas in the world in question, and were influenced by their views. It may be an obvious statement, but just because you haven't experienced the horrors and atrocities of a politically unstable area, it doesn't mean that you can't feel strongly about them. If your parents or older siblings tell you about how life was like over there, then of course you'd feel the same way that they do about it, with many of the same opinions that they have too.

I too am a Muslim, and I was born and raised here in America. I consider myself to be a Westerner (as the world classifies to be those that live in the countires of The Americas, and most of Europe, and Autstralia.) in most respects. I have been raised here, and I consider myself an intelligent citizen, trying to keep informed about what goes on in the world. Do I align myself with Al-Queda? No. Do I think that suicide bombings are rather extreme, and don't really help the situation they blow themselves into? Yes, I think it just makes things worse. Do I also think that anywhere there is a military conflict, in which one side has all the equipement in the forms of jets, tanks, missilles, against another side that has some gunpower and stones, do I think that is a productive way of going about things? No, I do not. (There is more than one situation in the world like this, so I'm not referring to any in particular.)

Going back to the topic at hand, if I heard anywhere of even a threat that my rights as an American citizen were to be violated in any way, even if it was something like a national registry, just because of my religious or ethnic backround, you better be sure to expect me to make my voice heard very loudly. I'm quite sure that if another plane were to hit a building, but this time if it were piloted by a caucasian "Right-Wing Nutjob" (apologies to those who consider themselves right wing in political affiliation)... there would be no talk of restricting rights to that particular group, would there?

Would I be wrong to think that? No, I do not think so.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by natetron46

I really dont beleive this statistic though. I cant beleive (1) that people are so stupid as to think that all muslims act this way and (2) people think that it should be done, its against the Bill of Rights for God sakes!

[/QUOTE]

Against the Bill of Rights? Since when has that been a (true) obstical for a government that wants to get something of that nature accomplished? Some people fear that the government may in fact do something like this, regardless if it violates something, even something as important as the Bill of Rights. I have fear of that, but it is the same fear and skeptisism that every citizen of a Democracy should have, because none of us can truely say that it won't happen. I'm not saying this just as someone with Arabian descent, or as a Muslim - I'm saying this as a US citizen. When people in power want something accomplished, even if it's wrong, they usually try to find a way to get it done. Without that fear and skeptisim, there would be no political watchdog groups that make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen, after all. Governments aren't run by gods; they're the same people we are, run by people as susceptible to sin as the average person.

[Semjaza]

Living in this country, you should get used to the fact that media outlets and whatever else use statistics to prove absolutely anything that will get some sort of response. I get papers from guys out on the street all the time telling me all sorts of strange percentages of people that do this or that, all of which they happen to hate for some reason.

Sampling a small amount of people and then multiplying it over the entire population of a country this large may work in some cases (like who likes what toothpaste), but when it comes to religious, political or ideological concerns, it never ever turns out. I wasn't asked if I think the rights of Muslims should be constrained and I'm sure neither was anyone else here. Mindsets are too different for such general numbers, in my opinion, so I see no real reason to ever get myself worked up over them.

[Guest Crimson Spider]

Only 44%? I would've sworn it would've been higher. Anyway, on to my points...


Religion is an intangible mindset and belief that many people have. There is no physical indication that a person is of a religion outside of speculation and generalizations (which people here obviously hate). The only ways to tell if a person belongs to any religion is if they or someone else tells you so (though the possibility of deception is obvious). So restricting the rights of such an intangible concept would be... shall I say... rather hopeless. Anyone could belong to any religion, and restricting them because of a religion is comperable to restricting a person's rights based on how much you think they appreciate the taste of a bananna sunday. Sure, they can tell you in comparison to other dogma's on it's taste (metaphor to the belief standard of other countries and governments), but outside of their expressed opinion, you could only assume little.

But there are instances in which there is justification for the limitation or violation for the civil rights of a person, such as someone who suffers from severe outbursts of violence and anger would be required to take management classes. As you know, there are many sects and branches of religion that are rather violent and violate the rights shared by the majority, all the while claiming to be one of the more common and peaceful ones (Just in what way do they like that Bananna Sunday?)

These are the religious groups which you should restrict. It is in their belief for violence and violation of the civil rights shared in opinion by the majority (opinoins which have all by empirically been proven fact). But as I stated above, doing this is very difficult.

The two Islamic sects, too my knowledge, don't instruct people to act in violence against one another in their teachings. It is the people themselves that are telling others to kill for a cause. Because it isn't taught in the religion to be that way (if anything taught the opposite), so restricting rights on the very broad term of "Muslim" would be inane in it's purposes.

The more accurate process would be to restrict those who follow the radicals of the Islamic faith, But good luck, because that isn't even really designatable by well-known title.

[natetron46]

[QUOTE=outlawstar69]I think alot of the confusion here is from the fact that none of us have the same "political and culteral mindset", so to speak, because obviously we all come from very different backrounds, and were all raised differently. (Yes, I know that is a "Duh..." statement.)

Chabichou, I take it that you are a Muslim who was born, or at least raised in Canada, correct? But, you have family and friends who came from the areas in the world in question, and were influenced by their views. It may be an obvious statement, but just because you haven't experienced the horrors and atrocities of a politically unstable area, it doesn't mean that you can't feel strongly about them. If your parents or older siblings tell you about how life was like over there, then of course you'd feel the same way that they do about it, with many of the same opinions that they have too.

I too am a Muslim, and I was born and raised here in America. I consider myself to be a Westerner (as the world classifies to be those that live in the countires of The Americas, and most of Europe, and Autstralia.) in most respects. I have been raised here, and I consider myself an intelligent citizen, trying to keep informed about what goes on in the world. Do I align myself with Al-Queda? No. Do I think that suicide bombings are rather extreme, and don't really help the situation they blow themselves into? Yes, I think it just makes things worse. Do I also think that anywhere there is a military conflict, in which one side has all the equipement in the forms of jets, tanks, missilles, against another side that has some gunpower and stones, do I think that is a productive way of going about things? No, I do not. (There is more than one situation in the world like this, so I'm not referring to any in particular.)

Going back to the topic at hand, if I heard anywhere of even a threat that my rights as an American citizen were to be violated in any way, even if it was something like a national registry, just because of my religious or ethnic backround, you better be sure to expect me to make my voice heard very loudly. I'm quite sure that if another plane were to hit a building, but this time if it were piloted by a caucasian "Right-Wing Nutjob" (apologies to those who consider themselves right wing in political affiliation)... there would be no talk of restricting rights to that particular group, would there?

Would I be wrong to think that? No, I do not think so.



Against the Bill of Rights? Since when has that been a (true) obstical for a government that wants to get something of that nature accomplished? Some people fear that the government may in fact do something like this, regardless if it violates something, even something as important as the Bill of Rights. I have fear of that, but it is the same fear and skeptisism that every citizen of a Democracy should have, because none of us can truely say that it won't happen. I'm not saying this just as someone with Arabian descent, or as a Muslim - I'm saying this as a US citizen. When people in power want something accomplished, even if it's wrong, they usually try to find a way to get it done. Without that fear and skeptisim, there would be no political watchdog groups that make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen, after all. Governments aren't run by gods; they're the same people we are, run by people as susceptible to sin as the average person.[/QUOTE]

I understand they are susceptible to sin, but not everyone thinks that way. I think it would be impossible to pass a bill like that. Especially when there are powerful muslims that are in this country

[elfpirate]

So less than 1/2 of 170-some Americans think we should restrict the rights of Muslims?

Hmm...well... first off, the majority of Americans are truly clueless regarding all issues, especially our government, and secondly, the American government restricts its own citizen's rights regardless of religion.

This is not a free country, after all, no matter how loudly they insist that it is.
If it concerns you that Muslims are being grouped into a certain category, then why group Americans into one category?

We are not all the same... just as all Muslims are not terrorists.