How good is America doing in their foreign affairs?

[Morpheus]

I think America is doing as good as possible. Someone attacks us, and we take care of it. I don't see the problem with invading Iraq. Wasn't saddam threatening the peace in a place already torn with tension?

[Dagger]

Let's be clear: the war in Iraq was not waged in retaliation for the 9/11 attacks. The war in Afghanistan, on the other hand, did follow the pattern of "someone attacks us, and we take care of it." I've almost never heard anyone complain about America's invasion of Afghanistan, as it was undeniably justified. Your post is a bit confusing--whether or not you supported the war in Iraq, it's really impossible to frame it as anything other than a pre-emptive strike.

~Dagger~

[Sol-Blade]

[SIZE=-3]Personally, the war in Afghanistan was fine by me. I felt that we were not rushing into anything, and we were NOT invading or occupying the country, we were simply there to hunt down a man and his organization. The war in Iraq however, I felt we handled a little differently. For one, even though we had unseated a dictator from his "throne", and even though the country is (supposedly) better off now that we are helping the Iraqis build their own government...we never really found any WoM there. I'm not saying that there was never any, oh I'm sure there was. My problem, is the fact that Bush seemed to justify the war on WoM's and WoM's only.

Even if that was his real intent, we should have based the war on "Uprooting Saddam from power" because...when your entire war is based on concrete evidence...that hasn't been found...well then it can't really be called "evidence" now could it? I'm not against the war, I just think that our motives were (for lack of a better word), off.

I know we have people here who know family members or friends who are fighting in Iraq, and I respect that. They are doing what I cannot, and so what can I say but support them?

One used to say that, [I]"The Ultimate act of Patriotism, was following your country right or wrong."[/I]Not to hijack a thread or anything, but what do you guys think of that?[/SIZE]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Sol-Blade][SIZE=-3]One used to say that, [I]"The Ultimate act of Patriotism, was following your country right or wrong."[/I']Not to hijack a thread or anything, but what do you guys think of that?[/SIZE][/quote]

Dead wrong. If you feel that your country is heading in the wrong direction, the ultimate act of patriotism is pouring your heart and soul into setting things right. Martin Luther King Jr., for example, was a true patriot.

~Dagger~

[kenshinsbabe]

[FONT=Georgia]I have mixed feelings on this one. On the one hand, there is the fact that we did overthrow Saddam and free the country from his tyranny, bringing on order and democracy. On the other, there is the fact that the radicals of the country who were loyal to Saddam when he was overthrown are placing the now free lives in jeopardy. If we'd have never gone, Saddam would still be there, but there would be less bombs everywhere.

Also, why must the soldiers stay? All we're doing is making the radicals madder. Their elections are coming up soon and I understand that they need protection, but, now in their democracy, shouldn't they be able to set up a police force or something? I see no reason why our soldiers must stay after the election. They will be there to keep the candidates safe and then leave so that he can set up a police force. Seems like a good solution to me...[/FONT]

[Retribution]

[quote name='kenshinsbabe][FONT=Georgia']Also, why must the soldiers stay? All we're doing is making the radicals madder. Their elections are coming up soon and I understand that they need protection, but, now in their democracy, shouldn't they be able to set up a police force or something? I see no reason why our soldiers must stay after the election. They will be there to keep the candidates safe and then leave so that he can set up a police force. Seems like a good solution to me...[/FONT][/quote]
Our soldiers must stay to stabilize the country, which we so violently rocked. We decentralized their government, and now Iraq is in shambles. We need to restore stability, peace, and order to these peope before leaving. We can't just go in, kick ***, and leave the mess for the people to clean up. We made this situation, now we need to be responsible and clean it up. It's not the Iraqi's fault that Bush didn't have a viable exit strategy... but that's for another thread.

If we just leave after the election, the radicals will assassinate the elected leader. The US troops are the glue binding this country together. Their police force isn't as trained or specialized as our armed forces.

Personally, I don't see how you think your 'solution' would work in any way.

[Sol-Blade]

[SIZE=-3]They [i]would[/i] have a police force if some of the insurgents didn't kill them off. You forget that, the few insurgents who step up and are opposed to us will (Apparently) go to any means necessary to show that they are unhappy with US help. Look, I don't know any of the details, just what I follow on the news. And so far, it looks like alot of recruiting stations are reported to be packed with would-be police officers, but you will always hear of a car bombing that took out everyone there.[/SIZE]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Is this thread about our Foreign Policy in Iraq, our FP in general, or was this thread a means to creatively title: "For or against the war in Iraq?" I don't really care either way, but I just want to know what I'm supposed to be answering before I answer it. lol. ^_^; (By the way, the title and your post should say "well," not good... sorry *______*)

[quote name='Sol-Blade']O1ne used to say that, "The Ultimate act of Patriotism, was following your country right or wrong."Not to hijack a thread or anything, but what do you guys think of that?[/quote]
Spifftacular question - I could not have thought of anything better to ask. ^_^ I hope Ken (DeathKnight) doesn't mind me quoting him, but I found something in his myO from a long time ago, extremely relevant to this. He had posted an excerpt from [i]Nuremburg Diary[/i] The questioner is a psychologist, Gustave Gilbert (given free access to all the prisoners), and the man he is questioning is Herman Goering, one of the most influential men of Nazi Germany. He's practically awaiting death from the trials, etc., this is the end of the line. Here's the excerpt:

[size=1]We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.

"Why, of course, the[i] people[/i] don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."[/size]

*grin* I think that blindly following someone is an extremely dangerous idea. People need to stop doing what they're told, or what they're being fed, and think things for themselves. Needless to say, I guess I would never fit the bill of one who would ever go for the Ultimate act of Patriotism. *_*;[/color]

[BlueYoshi]

[quote name='Sol-Blade][SIZE=-3']Personally, the war in Afghanistan was fine by me. I felt that we were not rushing into anything, and we were NOT invading or occupying the country, we were simply there to hunt down a man and his organization.[/SIZE][/quote]

[color=darkred]I believe that Afghanistan's opium fields played a role in America's occupation over there.[/color]

[eleanor]

[color=darkslateblue] *sigh* I just watched Saving Private Ryan last night. :/

I am being in two different directions when it comes to whether or not our soldiers should come home. On one hand, we can't just leave after putting Iraq in this horrible mess, but then again there are families here that are being heartbroken and destroyed because of the deaths. [/color]

[i]"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."[/i]

[color=darkslateblue]Geez oh man, I wonder what leader this describes here. >:[ Personally, I half-heartedly supported the war in Iraq when it first started, but I don't think our president planned **** for reconstruction.[/color]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='MistressRoxie']Is this thread about our Foreign Policy in Iraq, our FP in general, or was this thread a means to creatively title: "For or against the war in Iraq?" [/quote]
As the Title say, Foreign Affairs/Policy. We were just discussing Iraq.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]?Foreign Affairs? and ?Foreign Policy? are pretty broad and subjective terms, so I find it terribly difficult to comment on whether or not this administration is doing a good or bad job. If you really want to break it down to the simplest form I guess you could say the American dollar is weaker on the world market then it has been in a long time, therefore our foreign economic policy is weak; the unpopularity of the war in Iraq amongst other nations is quite rampant and America?s attitude towards the situations in East Timor lost us some respect amongst our hardiest allies, therefore our foreign military policy isn?t as strong as it should be; however, America still spends more money and donates more time on non-militaristic humanitarian efforts both per capita and on a whole than any other nation, in that respect our nation has been strong for eighty years.

I guess my biggest problem with ?Foreign Policy? is that the American media (even in the Clinton years) is constantly emphasizing how such and such bill pissed off such and such country, but (and this is a big ?but?) they rarely discuss how that bill is simultaneously helping the United State?s own interior dilemmas. Now I am by no means stating that the United States government is ineffable (or even adequate), I guess I am saying that the US government should be much more concerned about doing the right thing for the people that reside within its borders than being homecoming queen.[/color]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Oh. okay. Thanks for the clarification. *is happy* ^__^

Foreign Policy? I'm not quite as knowledgable about the economy as Heaven's Cloud (I will be soon - I just have to read that damned stuff on Economics again; I'm so lazy). All I know is that we used to have more money, and now we're in a 4 trillion dollar debt, and growing...

I was just a child during the Clinton administration, but I would really like to know, where the hell that surplus went? Did we spend it all, and what did we spend it on? I'm lost over here. X_x

The thing that not many people realize (actually, I didn't realize it up until a few weeks ago, how sad), is that foreign policy is created to benefit the country it belongs to. I swear to God, that's the purpose of it. I learned this in US History 1 when we were talking about the Hamilton financial plan (you can stop laughing at me now). But yeah, foreign policy should technically firs tbe in the interest of the nation, and then in the interest of other nations if we have time to be the world police. If I've got that wrong, please let me know, since I'm nowhere near adequately knowledgeable on this topic. >_<

If you put it on a Pro-con chart, economically, the War in Iraq probably wasn't a great choice, since I haven't seen it do anything for us. It's arguable that nobody knew how the war would effect us financially, and thatwars usually get us out of debt, but doesn't the president have advisors to project these things? Or am I just making that up? *_*;[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]*feels the hundreds of old War On Iraq threads pulling this one sideways*

Anyway, I think America is not making themselves very popular with a lot of people. And the aim of foreign policy is to be nice on the outside, but greedy on the inside. Maybe America has it the wrong way around at the moment :p

I kid. Anyway, do I think the reasons for attacking Iraq were justified? No. Do I think the eventual results [i.e stabilisation under a less corrupt Government manned by Iraqi's] to be justifiable? Yes.

It comes down to whether or not you believe the means justify the ends.

As for their appearance to most of the world, their foreign [b]popularity[/b] is taking it hard. Not too many people like America, regardless of what the facts behind it all may be.[/size]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE=MistressRoxie][color=#9933ff]
Foreign Policy? I'm not quite as knowledgable about the economy as Heaven's Cloud (I will be soon - I just have to read that damned stuff on Economics again; I'm so lazy). All I know is that we used to have more money, and now we're in a 4 trillion dollar debt, and growing...

I was just a child during the Clinton administration, but I would really like to know, where the hell that surplus went? Did we spend it all, and what did we spend it on? I'm lost over here. X_x

[/color][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=INDIGO]Just to clear up some general misunderstandings on America?s yearly deficit. Our projected deficit this year is very high, however, it isn?t bad to carry a deficit, however, it is odd as to why you would ever have a surplus. The deficit is more or less America?s credit card, which we as a nation pay off. Therefore, if you ever have a surplus it means that the American people were billed for more money than they charged (in other words, the tax man is fleecing you). While I do think America?s deficit is unusually high due to poor management, I think you also have to remember how much money we loan to other countries as ?forgettable? debts. In other words, we have chosen to ignore collecting money that we are owed by other countries. This has been an ongoing American policy since the end of WW2.[/color]

[quote name='Baron']As for their appearance to most of the world, their foreign popularity is taking it hard. Not too many people like America, regardless of what the facts behind it all may be.[/quote]

[color=indigo]
I definitely agree with the foreign ?popularity? outlook. I also tend to be a little leary when it comes to the media?s foreign opinion polls because you never know exactly what questions were asked to form said poll.
[/color]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Baron Samedi'] Not too many people like America, [/quote]
I don't Think so. Afghanis seem to be the most grateful, but there are many places that nearly worship America. Many places hit with multiple disasters, Such as bangladesh, see America as a way to recover. Few places have a strong concentration of haters.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Morpheus']I don't Think so. Afghanis seem to be the most grateful, but there are many places that nearly worship America. Many places hit with multiple disasters, Such as bangladesh, see America as a way to recover. Few places have a strong concentration of haters.[/quote]

Well, as a person from a country friendly to America, I [b]know[/b] that not too many people like America. I'm not saying that these people hate America, but they certainly don't like it.

How many places nearly worship America? Why don't we list them. The 'US'. The 'USA' The 'US of A'. The 'United States'.

All these places seem related >_>

And, if you're talking about Bangladesh in terms of the Boxing Day disaster and a way to recover, did you know that America has been criticised for the proportional aid they're sending? Obviously any aid is good, but getting back to the topic, not many people hold any great love for America. Aside from Americans.[/size]

[Zeta]

I don't many places dislike America. I think they disagree with some of our choices, but there isn't dislike. But yes, there are places that do not like American, even then it is groups of people, not the country as a whole (at least I', not aware of a [i]whole[/i] country disliking us).

I personally think we are doing the best we can at the moment. Some things we could have done different in the past, but otherwise I think we are doing all right. We've helped set up a democracy going in Afghanistan. And even though overall things look bad in Iraq, we have done quite a few good things nontheless.

[Morpheus]

[QUOTE=Zeta]I don't many places dislike America. I think they disagree with some of our choices, but there isn't dislike. But yes, there are places that do not like American, even then it is groups of people, not the country as a whole (at least I', not aware of a [i]whole[/i] country disliking us).

I personally think we are doing the best we can at the moment. Some things we could have done different in the past, but otherwise I think we are doing all right. We've helped set up a democracy going in Afghanistan. And even though overall things look bad in Iraq, we have done quite a few good things nontheless.[/QUOTE]
In North Korea, it is TAUGHT to hate capitalism.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]And NK's opinion counts for what? :therock:

There's always goings to be people who either like America or don't like us. It's what you get for being the country in the limelight all the time.

Aren't there countries, or the government of countries that you don't like? Iran, NK, maybe? I personally don't like the French gov't, but hey. *shrug*

It's so amusing to see countries like Bangladesh, where we try to do the right thing and get stabbed in the back. It seems like the phrase "damned if you do, damned if you don't" was made just to apply to America.

Heaven's Cloud - I gotcha about the surplus. And yeah, I know debt isn't bad, I just personally think the debt right now is quite a lot. But hey, that's me. ><[/color]

[Zeta]

[quote name='Morpheus']In North Korea, it is TAUGHT to hate capitalism.[/quote]

Yeah? Well I am taught how to find the degree of angle theta in a right triangle and I don't know how to do it.

Just because it is taught there, doesn't mean the entire country follows it. Sure some follow it, but I am not buying that every single person in the whole country follows that, lol.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Zeta']Well I am taught how to find the degree of angle theta in a right triangle and I don't know how to do it.[/quote]
North Koreans are smart.

And have you ever heard of majority rules, or general consensus?

Because, quite definitely, generally international opinion is negatively geared for America. They don't have to hate America, but they most certainly don't love it.[/size]

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]North Koreans are smart.[/QUOTE]

Ok? Who cares, lol. The point I was making, which you obviously didn't get (I hope I am wrong here and you are being sarcastic) or you chose to ignore, is that just because you are taught something, doesn't mean you understand, follow, nor believe it.


Majority rules it taking it a bit too far when talking about an entire country's populartion. I never said [i]none[/i] of them hated or disliked America. I just said I highly doubt an entire population dislikes us. The entire population of Iraq doesn't hate us, and if anything, they have justified reason to. I don't think you can speak for an entire population of 22,697,553, sorry.

[Morpheus]

Let me rephrase that. It is taught as a moral, like not killing people is.

[Inu500]

Were not doing are best and were not doing are worst. If we still have troops out in baghad then the war is not over. I think that are forgien affairs have gotten worse this year. I've noticed something strange. Every ten years we go in war. Well that's what it seems like. On a final note. Think about it, soilders are still getting killed in Iraq, the war is not over. :flaming: