How good is America doing in their foreign affairs?

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]lol. Yes, it does seem like we're always at war, doesn't it? We're either in an actual declared war, a conflict, or small wars (Kosovo was the last one I can remember - *_*)

The thing about capitalism in NK - it's just propaganda. So I personally wouldn't count those people. But hey, that's me. If someone has come to the conclusion that they hate America for their own free will, I'll take those people seriously, because they haven't been forcefed propaganda and a nuke-loving country with an egocentric ruler who uses international aid to fund his personal army.[/color]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Morpheus']I think America is doing as good as possible.[/quote]

[color=green]Exactly.

We can compare America?s foreign policy, and it?s results, to this sentence. While our intent is good, we?ve slipped up in places.[/color]

[LPpunkrocka]

[QUOTE=Boba Fett][color=green]Exactly.

We can compare America’s foreign policy, and it’s results, to this sentence. While our intent is good, we’ve slipped up in places.[/color][/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Zeta']Ok? Who cares, lol.[/quote]
I guess that one went right over your head. Anyone who understood my comment, please PM me and restore my faith in humankind.

[quote name='Zeta']Majority rules it taking it a bit too far when talking about an entire country's populartion. I never said none of them hated or disliked America. I just said I highly doubt an entire population dislikes us. The entire population of Iraq doesn't hate us, and if anything, they have justified reason to. I don't think you can speak for an entire population of 22,697,553, sorry.[/quote]
What is with you and stupidity? Not be nasty, but if you take all of America, and pit it against your opinion, [b]does your opinion matter[/b]. No, it doesn't. Which is why you can say that North Korea hates America, because [b]what better time to use majority rules[/b]?

I mean, geez. I hope you were joking.

Now, the [b]general feeling of lots of people[/b] is set against America...but, luckily, in a passive manner. Now, are you going to disagree with that?[/size]

[Zeta]

Why on earth would you want to use majority rules on such a large number of people. I mean really, that is taking the rule way beyong its limits. I'm not buying the majority rules coming into play with an population of millions. You can't speak for everyone. That is like saying America hates Muslims, because a vast amount of people do hate them, or have strong dislike of them, but we don't say America hates Muslims.

[QUOTE]ow, the general feeling of lots of people is set against America...but, luckily, in a passive manner. Now, are you going to disagree with that?[/QUOTE]

Now that I agree with. You still can't speak for a majority of people in a country. You just don't know how many people dislike America, or like us. Judging by what I read on the CIA factbook, North Korea isn't doing to tell with its economy I believe it was. Now when they are taugh that Capitalism is bad and they see that their form of government is crap compared to the United States, I don't believe they will follow it, nor believe it.

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Zeta'] That is like saying America hates Muslims, because a vast amount of people do hate them, or have strong dislike of them, but we don't say America hates Muslims.[/quote]
Plain and simple, the majority of americans DON'T hate muslims, or have any dislike for them whatsoever. Most of the dislike is directed towards the middle east, but that doesn't mean we hate the middle east nor does it imply that we hate muslims.

[quote name='Zeta'] Now when they are taugh that Capitalism is bad and they see that their form of government is crap compared to the United States, I don't believe they will follow it, nor believe it.[/quote]
Bad is such a weak word. They are taught that it is an evi, vile system as we were taught so about Communism during the cold war. It's not simply asked of the children. It is enforced.l

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]Plain and simple, the majority of americans DON'T hate muslims, or have any dislike for them whatsoever. Most of the dislike is directed towards the middle east, but that doesn't mean we hate the middle east nor does it imply that we hate muslims.[/QUOTE]

Yes my apologies, I should have said Middle East. >_> Yes there is a lot of dislike aimed towards the Middle East as you said, and as you said it doesn't mean we hate the Middle East. Why should se say that North Korea hates America if it is basically the same thing as our views on the M.E.?

[QUOTE]Bad is such a weak word. They are taught that it is an evi, vile system as we were taught so about Communism during the cold war. It's not simply asked of the children. It is enforced.l[/QUOTE]

How can they enforce it really? If one doesn't make their true views known then how can one know if they truly believe that it is a vile, evil system? There are some who do believe that, and some who will not believe it. With this we are using the majority rules based on what is seen on the surface. Basically juding a book by its cover if you will. So you can't say the [i]entire[/i] country hates America/capitalism.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Edit. Yeah, I know I had a question here before, but I've retracted that. I understand now.

Zero - I know you want to believe that the world loves America, but you have to face the fact: They don't. It's an undeniable irrefutable fact: They don't. Or, if I may clarify that, many many many people, for whatever reason - justifiable or not, fairly or not, do NOT like our government and our foreign policy. They may love American people (er... yeah, that's debatable but I won't get into it), but certainly not our government. That is a FACT - not an opinion.[/color]

[Zeta]

Baron I believe said that the whole of the country hates America or capitalism. I said you can't use majority rules there because it is much too big of scope. He is speaking for an entire population of 22 some million, using majority rules based on what they are taught. My point with me not knowing how to do some trigonometry is meant to show that just because you are taught something, doesnt mean you follow it or know how to do it. So, just because they are taught that, doesn't mean they believe nor follow it. Which means he can't be speaking for an entire country based on what they are taught to believe.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Countries are not something who's 'opinion' on anything can be judged. Therefore, we are looking at either how the Government feels, or how the people feel.

Obviously, the Government is an easy one to judge: They hate America. If you base a countries stance off of their Government, then North Korea hates America.

The people is a harder question. But, as in a vote, you need to go with what the majority feel. And I daresay the majority of North Koreans don't think of America as the greatest and best nation on Earth [as some people do >_>]. Maybe they don't all hate it. But I'd say a majority of people view it with varying levels of dislike. And thats at the very least, considering they've had the evils of it indoctrinated into them since birth.

Can you even grasp that concept? [b]Since they have been born they have never been showed anything positive about America[/b].

As I said before, which you obviously didn't quite understand, when you are taking a large group of people's feelings into consideration, it doesn't matter what one individual thinks, it matters what most of them think. Majority rules.

Why can't you understand that this kind of thing is what that idea was made for? If you can't get anything important from using majority rules across a country, why vote?[/size]

[Zeta]

[QUOTE]Obviously, the Government is an easy one to judge: They hate America. If you base a countries stance off of their Government, then North Korea hates America.[/QUOTE]

If you had said that from the start, we would be saying that the government hates America, not the country.

[QUOTE]
Why can't you understand that this kind of thing is what that idea was made for? If you can't get anything important from using majority rules across a country, why vote?[/QUOTE]

Voting and guessing from what they are taught are different things. Voting you have the people basically speaking what they believe. Basing your opinion on a matter on what they are taught is entirely different. As I said, just because they are taught something doesn't mean they believe it, or follow it. Yes they show us in a negative light, but that doesn't mean the majority of the population believes it.

Now if you show me a vote where the majority of the people dislike America, then I will change my opinions. It is foolish to base an entire country's feelings off of what they are taught and are supposed to believe.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Well, how would you define a country then? By it's Government or by it's people? Because, it has to be defined by one of these.

In any case where you are making a decision [in this case to vote], you can only act on what information you have. They only have information which portrays America in a bad light. Most people would accept what their Government is telling them as truth. Their whole society is different to ours... this isn't the Western world where you can criticse your Governments to hell and back, and have the right to do so. They don't have those kind of rights. They're Communist. Their whole society is differently stuctured to ours. So, yes, I can say with a great degree of certainty, that whether you look at it's people or at it's Government, North Korea does not like America.[/size]

[Zeta]

I define a country by its people. And as far as I am aware, I do not see them running around the streets saying how much they hate America and capitalism. Maybe I am not looking hard enough, *shrug* Again, show me where the people say they do not like America and capitalism, then I will believe. Show me vote results saying they do not like capitalism. Hell, show me them raising their hands saying they hate capitalism. Show me proof. I repeat just because they are taught something does not mean they all believe it.


I read on the CIA factbook that people are pouring over the borders to leave their country. Obviously they don't believe their government, some do some don't. You can say it wtih as much certainty that I can say the country as a whole does not hate capitalism.

I just do not think you should be using the majority rules on something as big as an entire country. Voting is different than the way you are presenting the majority rules point. An entire country is much to be in size to use that rule.

Well, neither of us can obviously prove our points to each other in a full and complete way, might as well just forget about it, lol.

[Morpheus]

[QUOTE=Zeta]I define a country by its people. And as far as I am aware, I do not see them running around the streets saying how much they hate America and capitalism. Maybe I am not looking hard enough, *shrug* Again, show me where the people say they do not like America and capitalism, then I will believe. Show me vote results saying they do not like capitalism. Hell, show me them raising their hands saying they hate capitalism. Show me proof. I repeat just because they are taught something does not mean they all believe it.


I read on the CIA factbook that people are pouring over the borders to leave their country. Obviously they don't believe their government, some do some don't. You can say it wtih as much certainty that I can say the country as a whole does not hate capitalism.[/QUOTE]
You are too thick. Did we run around in the streets saying how much we hated the USSR? No. Do you know why? We were scared of them. The North Koreans know of our power and are scared. They don't want to test us.
It's not taught! It's a moral over there. Just like you were told to eat with a fork and spoon as a toddler, they are told that capitalism is evil. If they like capitalism, they are punished.
We didn't say people liked it there. When they find out the truth about us and them, they can't wait to get out.

[Zeta]

No, but I am sure McCarthy and his crusade were enough.

Again, show me the numbers. Again, how many people are taught to eat with forks? Everyone. Does everyone follow that? No. People are taught to live a clean life, that to live in filth is wrong. I just watched an episode of cops the other night with this lady who was living in complete and total filth. Garbage everywhere, dead cats in her house. People are told that hitting women is wrong, yet men do it anyways. We are brought up being told that beating children is wrong, it happens anyways. We are told that it is wrong to murder, steal, do drugs, yet people do it anyways.

Again, just because they are told we are bad, does not mean they believe it, please.

[Morpheus]

Does the vast majority eat with forks? Yes. You are missing the big picture. While a few might like us, they don't let the others know. They are pretty much seen as disgusting, as slobs are here.

[Juu]

[quote name='Dagger IX1']Dead wrong. If you feel that your country is heading in the wrong direction, the ultimate act of patriotism is pouring your heart and soul into setting things right.[/quote]

[size=1]I agree wholeheartedly. It's like a parent. Which is the better parent, one who sits back, allowing their child to do bad things and simply saying the child is doing their best to be a good person, or to sit down and talk to them about what they're doing wrong, and try to advise (not force) them in the right direction?

And really, are we trying our best?

After the tsunami hit, world leaders rushed to help after the disaster. What does our dearly beloved president do? He resumes with his Christmas vacation. And then what? He proposes 20 MILLION. That's just about enough to buy a really nice house in Palo Alto. While, on the other hand, individual organizations in Europe alone are able to raise 70 million, and even a country as small as South Korea proposes 30 million - 10 million more than the United States. And yet, after the hurricanes hit Florida, Bush proposed 2 billion?

And I'm not too happy about the way they're distributing the food, as shown on CNN. Tossing boxes of food like mardi gras beads out of a helicopter doesn't seem like the best way to distribute food to people who are homeless after a disaster.

As for North Korea, why shouldn't they have anything against the US? Didn't Bush include their country in the 'Axis of Evil'? And that was RIGHT as North and South Korea were speaking seriously about reunification. Families were allowed to meet for the first time in fifty years on the border, and they were sending peace performances by children and popular singers to the other country.

But I don't understand why the US is so concerned with such small countries having weapons of mass destruction. After all, which country owns the most?[/size]

[eleanor]

[i]After the tsunami hit, world leaders rushed to help after the disaster. What does our dearly beloved president do? He resumes with his Christmas vacation. And then what? He proposes 20 MILLION. That's just about enough to buy a really nice house in Palo Alto. While, on the other hand, individual organizations in Europe alone are able to raise 70 million, and even a country as small as South Korea proposes 30 million - 10 million more than the United States. And yet, after the hurricanes hit Florida, Bush proposed 2 billion?

And I'm not too happy about the way they're distributing the food, as shown on CNN. Tossing boxes of food like mardi gras beads out of a helicopter doesn't seem like the best way to distribute food to people who are homeless after a disaster.

As for North Korea, why shouldn't they have anything against the US? Didn't Bush include their country in the 'Axis of Evil'? And that was RIGHT as North and South Korea were speaking seriously about reunification. Families were allowed to meet for the first time in fifty years on the border, and they were sending peace performances by children and popular singers to the other country.

But I don't understand why the US is so concerned with such small countries having weapons of mass destruction. After all, which country owns the most?[/i]

[color=darkslateblue]Rock on.

The USA is probably the most poweful and rich nation in the world, right? Wait, I guess that means that highest George Bush can fork over at first is $35 million. Yes, that is just [i]collosal[/i].[/color]

[i]On the second day of the crisis, America's $4 million pledge was increased to $15 million, Powell said. Three days after the tragedy, the U.S. aid was expanded to $35 million. By then many other nations had pledged millions more. France has promised $57 million, Britain $95 million, Sweden $75.5 million and Spain $68 million, although that pledge was partly in loans. [/i]

[color=darkslateblue] The US has this ever-present layer of very strong nationalism, almost arrogance, and it shows up in the media. We act as if we have to go around and protect the world by ridding other countries of the nukes, and say that we're making the world better. But then George Bush decides to wait a bit and then says 'we'll give when $350 million' in the end. Whoop dee doo. Good for you, Mr. Bush. And the media isn't helping. Most of the sob stories are about white people, I've seen about two survivor stories about the natives. Good job, I guess we'll just lump all the natives into the massive death count, but Americans are just more important so they'll have to have their own sepreate thing.[/color]

[RabidInuFanboy]

[quote name='Morpheus']Does the vast majority eat with forks? Yes. You are missing the big picture. While a few might like us, they don't let the others know. They are pretty much seen as disgusting, as slobs are here.[/quote]

I agree with absolutely Morpheus. You see, the difference between America and the rest of the world is that we know what is right and we do what we know is right. The problem is, most countries don't want to do what's right, it's human nature. Why do we drink? because it feels good, we don't want to think about kidney failure or anything, we just live for the moment. Just a little comparison to the world.

[Juu]

[quote name='RabidInuFanboy']I agree with absolutely Morpheus. You see, the difference between America and the rest of the world is that we know what is right and we do what we know is right. The problem is, most countries don't want to do what's right, it's human nature. Why do we drink? because it feels good, we don't want to think about kidney failure or anything, we just live for the moment. Just a little comparison to the world.[/quote]

[size=1]...Please tell me you're being sarcastic.[/size]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Juuthena']After the tsunami hit, world leaders rushed to help after the disaster. What does our dearly beloved president do? He resumes with his Christmas vacation. And then what? He proposes 20 MILLION. That's just about enough to buy a really nice house in Palo Alto. While, on the other hand, individual organizations in Europe alone are able to raise 70 million, and even a country as small as South Korea proposes 30 million - 10 million more than the United States. And yet, after the hurricanes hit Florida, Bush proposed 2 billion?[/quote]
It's a little bit different. We were the ONLY ones going to pay for Florida. When was the last time we got aid from another country?

[quote name='Juuthena']That's just about enough to buy a really nice house in Palo Alto. [/quote]
And about a million in Sri Lanka. You see, Sri Lanka is one of the poorest countries in the world, and their money is borderline worthless. Everything is very cheap there.

[quote name='Juuthena']And I'm not too happy about the way they're distributing the food, as shown on CNN. Tossing boxes of food like mardi gras beads out of a helicopter doesn't seem like the best way to distribute food to people who are homeless after a disaster.[/quote]
But it is the most efficient. With thousands of tons of food going to the people, we simply can't hand deliver the food to everyone. That would cost money and manpower, and since we have most of our resources in Iraq, Kosovo, Chechnia, etc. it is impossible.

[quote name='Juuthena']But I don't understand why the US is so concerned with such small countries having weapons of mass destruction. After all, which country owns the most?[/quote]
It doesn't matter who has the most. You could have 100 AK47s with 500-round canisters all around, but if a child has one with 5 bullets, you will still take it from him. Even if we have more, that doesn't make theirs any less deadly.

[eleanor]

[i]I agree with absolutely Morpheus. You see, the difference between America and the rest of the world is that we know what is right and we do what we know is right. The problem is, most countries don't want to do what's right, it's human nature. Why do we drink? because it feels good, we don't want to think about kidney failure or anything, we just live for the moment. Just a little comparison to the world.[/i]

[color=darkslateblue] Yes, because it is a known fact that Jesus came down upon the US and blessed us and only us to know what is right and what is wrong, and the knowledge that beer can destroy your kidneys.[/color]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]See, the problem with North Korea is that they actually have threatened to use their weapons. We haven't. Of course, any idiot who can spell antidisestablishmentarianism knows that they're just looking for attention (I'll get to that in a sec.), but they have been threatening it. It's kinda like the mentally unstable person who shouts "BOMB!" on the plane - there's no bomb but it gets everyone on the plane terribly upset.

I think the "Axis of Evil" is the dumbest thing ever said by a world leader (because Bush, although arguably bright, isn't very articulate). But that doesn't mean NK isn't a threat. They're waving a gun in their hands and hostility is usually the reaction.

The other reason people don't like NK, is because erm... Kim Jong Il is a psycho. N. Koreans are very poor (I'm not saying everyone - gosh by no means as poor as people in say, Africa), but they do get quite a lot of humanitarian relief aid from places like the UN (and coincidentally we give the most funds to the UN). And what do they do with the aid? Kim Jong Il feeds it to his army (or to the families with someone in his army). This goes back to why we're worried about such a tiny little country with Nukes - even if he's not using them, he has the [b]fourth largest army in the world[/b].

By the way, NK is geographically located between S. Korea, China, and, Japan. Either way you want to go - troops or nukes, they have the means to attack two countries we're friendly with, especially Japan, the major country we have ties to. If we "lose" Japan, we lose any influence we had in Asia, since, as this thread has shown, most people don't like the US, especially people like the Chinese (who have the man power to defeat us).


Personally, I don't think Bush knows anything about fiscal policy or financing - so he sends crappy aid. We don't even have enough aid for the troops in Iraq. He went in with out a friggin' exit (which is why some people are grumbling now).

I could be entirely wrong (please please correct me if I am), but I think you're getting the dates for aid pledged in money incorrect. As far as I know (from what I read in the news paper two days afterward), at that time, all the countries around the world were still assessing damages, and how much money would be needed to clean up the mess. At that time, the US pledged $15 million, the EU pledged $4 million, Australia sent $7.8 million, and the Spanish offered $1.3 million. Other countries and charities (UNICEF, Red Cross/Crecent, individual charities) were also donating money, but not as mush as the countries.

Needless to say, America has upped its pledge to $350 million the last time I checked, and probably still rising as the death toll climbs.

All this criticizing of America's contribution is more proof that the world isn't in love with us - we do something nice (we could have been total selfish jerks and not sent anything), and people criticize us anyway. Damned if we do damned if we don't (I'm not saying that we didn't deserve it, but we get criticized whatever we do)[/color]

[Juu]

[quote name='Morpheus']It's a little bit different. We were the ONLY ones going to pay for Florida. When was the last time we got aid from another country?[/quote]

[size=1]Well, let's see. 20 people, give or take, were killed by the hurricanes in Florida. 155,000 people, give or take, were killed by the tsunami + aftershocks. Hmm. I wonder which calls for more attention?[/size]


[quote]And about a million in Sri Lanka. You see, Sri Lanka is one of the poorest countries in the world, and their money is borderline worthless. Everything is very cheap there.[/quote]

[size=1]What ever happened to the quote 'It's the thought that counts'? Not to mention, Sri Lanka was most definitely not the only country hit by the tsunamis. Here's a [url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/allurepink/tsunamimap.jpg]map[/url] in case.

Also, I assume that means that the next time America is in desperate need of international help, countries like Sri Lanka should send the amount one good house costs there?[/size]


[quote]But it is the most efficient. With thousands of tons of food going to the people, we simply can't hand deliver the food to everyone. That would cost money and manpower, and since we have most of our resources in Iraq, Kosovo, Chechnia, etc. it is impossible.[/quote]

[size=1]I don't think that should call for hurling boxes out of a helicopter like the people have some sort of terrible contagious disease. Sure, there's a ton of people in need, and I'm not expecting them to prance door-to-door with provisions, but it doesn't exactly go to show the best amount of sympathy to feed them like dolphins.[/size]


[quote]It doesn't matter who has the most. You could have 100 AK47s with 500-round canisters all around, but if a child has one with 5 bullets, you will still take it from him. Even if we have more, that doesn't make theirs any less deadly.[/quote]

[size=1]Since when is America that 'saviour'? Then shouldn't America be deprived of its 300 or-so weapons as well? If that's the case, then I'll say all's fair.[/size]

[eleanor]

[i]All this criticizing of America's contribution is more proof that the world isn't in love with us - we do something nice (we could have been total selfish jerks and not sent anything), and people criticize us anyway. Damned if we do damned if we don't (I'm not saying that we didn't deserve it, but we get criticized whatever we do)[/i]

[color=darkslateblue]It's because we're a god-damned world power, the most poweful nation in the world, and we've done some pretty f-ed up things in the past. And the fact that $350 million is somewhat small when compared to how much more we could give them. Yeah, $350 million is nice, but that's like a billionaire giving 1,000 to a tradgedy. The niceness of it sort of wears away.[/color]