Abortion--Views and Opinions

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]I don't see what place a bunch of older white guys have passing legislation regarding a woman's reproductive rights.[QUOTE]

I think anyone who was a former fetus has valid input on this topic. After all, we chose those same older white guys to decide a lot of other things for us.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='Deathbug']I think anyone who was a former fetus has valid input on this topic. After all, we chose those same older white guys to decide a lot of other things for us.[/quote]
I'm not sure who's supposed to "validate" anyone's input here... As for having those older white guys decide certain things for us, I think they do have a place to decide *certain* things. But not everything. And certainly not something completely without their realm, so to speak.

[Brasil]

How many people here eat scrambled eggs? This question does relate to the topic at hand, too.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']I'm not sure who's supposed to "validate" anyone's input here... As for having those older white guys decide certain things for us, I think they do have a place to decide *certain* things. But not everything. And certainly not something completely without their realm, so to speak.[/quote]

[color=green]By this logic, you'd have separate authorities and bodies of government for every different section of the populations. After all, how could a young person possibly know how a senior citizen feels? Or white congressmen possibly understand his minority constituents?

That's a load of garbage. Deathbug beat me to the punch with the "former fetus" line, which I think everyone really needs to think about. A fetus, like a child or a teenager, is a stage of life. To terminate a person's life, you'd better have a damn good reason.

Abortion, at whatever stage in a pregnancy (brainwaves or no), is murder. Only in cases where one life if pitted against another, where the mother is in severe physical or emotional danger as a result of her pregnancy, should a child be aborted.[/color]

[quote name='Siren']How many people here eat scrambled eggs? This question does relate to the topic at hand, too.[/quote]

[color=green]Yes, often.

I do draw a line between the fetus of a chicken, and that of a human being.[/color]

[Xander Harris]

[quote name='Siren']How many people here eat scrambled eggs? This question does relate to the topic at hand, too.[/quote]

I eat them. And adult chickens as well. Typically broasted, with a side of potatoes and perhaps some pizza. Humans and animals are different things, imho. Are you trying to turn this into a debate about vegitarianism? Start another thread.

As to the idea that legislators don't have the right to decide on the abortion issue, this is a complete load of bullcrap, unless you are a socialist, in which case it makes perfect sense. Welcome to representational democracy.

Let's make one thing clear: A murderer thinks he is doing a good thing. That ***** deserves it for cheating on him. Bank robbers think they are correct. Society owes them the money. The issue is not how the person commiting the act FEELS about it, as some have tried to say. The issue is whether or not said behavior is morally correct.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

Ah, the privileging of human unborns... nothing to really argue with, it's just different personal moral codes. Everyone draws the line in a different place, don't go around saying my view is bullcrap because there's no arbiter to decide yours is correct. Let's not get all self-righteous here, folks, there's no such thing as "what is morally correct." If you think you are so damn right that your morals should be forced onto others, then just outright say it.

Xander you think humans and animals are different things. I can only assume you're talking about their function in society. Because one's a subset of the other in reality.

Xander, your representational democracy argument is completely empty. In fact it is so utterly empty that you could replace "abortion" in that paragraph with "spying on your kids 24 hours a day" and it would make just as much, or as little, sense. Think about what we *entrust* our representatives with. They are limited to that, and that alone. And perhaps we entrust them with too much. Socialism, lol. Don't even go there.

[Patronus]

[quote name='Sword Breaker']Can't say rape is much of a factor, since they usually kill ya anyhow.[/quote]
[size=1][color=purple]No they don't. [/color][/size]
[size=1][color=purple][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=purple]I disagree with abortion unless, as stated before, it's a case of rape, incest, or a life threatening case. [/color][/size]
[size=1][color=purple][/color][/size]
[size=1][color=purple]It is murder, pure and simple, and the ways they go about killing the children are disgusting. The most disgusting.[/color][/size]

[DeathBug]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade'] Let's not get all self-righteous here, folks, there's no such thing as "what is morally correct." If you think you are so damn right that your morals should be forced onto others, then just outright say it.[/quote]

Oh, of course there's stuff that's morally correct. In case you haven't noticed, what the vast majority of arguments in society are about is which set of actions are the most morally correct.

And you've already decided that it's morally correct not to make moral judgements, so don't get too full of yourself.

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]
Xander, your representational democracy argument is completely empty. In fact it is so utterly empty that you could replace "abortion" in that paragraph with "spying on your kids 24 hours a day" and it would make just as much, or as little, sense.[/QUOTE]

Representational democracy ceases to be such when those in power cease to be held responsible by the citizens. Therefore, you CAN'T put anything in there. You could not put in, say "congress passes a law that says they have absolute power, can never be removed from office, and they are summarily disbanding the judicial and executive branches of the government." You can, however, put in that 'they pass a law that says all kids are to be spied on 24 hours a day'. I doubt many people are going to like that, and when the next election rolls around the senators and representatives that voted for such a ludicrous course of action will be ousted. New leadership will come in that will overturn the law. Again I say welcome to representational democracy.

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

[quote name='DeathBug']Oh, of course there's stuff that's morally correct. In case you haven't noticed, what the vast majority of arguments in society are about is which set of actions are the most morally correct.[/quote]
No, it's actually the ones which are the most universally acceptable. Societies don't go for "correctness," they go for functionality. People can't judge what's right, they can judge what works.

[QUOTE]And you've already decided that it's morally correct not to make moral judgements, so don't get too full of yourself.[/QUOTE]
Let's not put words in my mouth. I'm not privileging any particular moral code, which is not the same thing as what you are doing. Perhaps you think this is equivalent to the absolute statement of "there is no absolute truth" (a contradiction), but it is not. I am saying there is no ultimately correct moral code, there is no contradiction there.

Oh, and Xander Harris, the example you gave yourself is of something where the government oversteps its bounds. These bounds are enforced by the electoral process. My point is that these bounds define what we *entrust* our government with. What we trust them to properly and accurately represent. That's what "representative" in representative democracy means. The elected are supposed to represent the will of their constituents. In the case of something like abortion, I don't see them accurately representing the will of those who their decisions will affect, should they impose whatever restrictions on it.

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]
Oh, and Xander Harris, the example you gave yourself is of something where the government oversteps its bounds. These bounds are enforced by the electoral process. My point is that these bounds define what we *entrust* our government with. What we trust them to properly and accurately represent. That's what "representative" in representative democracy means. The elected are supposed to represent the will of their constituents. In the case of something like abortion, I don't see them accurately representing the will of those who their decisions will affect, should they impose whatever restrictions on it.[/QUOTE]

For the most part, senators and representatives tell you up front whether they are pro-life or pro-choice. If the limits on representatives are the bounds the people entrust them with, then if their constituents choose a pro-life representative (or vice versa), and then that representative votes in a pro-life (or vice-versa manor) then they ARE representing the will of their constituents, since their constituents voted for them knowing they were pro-life (or vice versa). What could be more 'accurate' of the will of their constituents than that?

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

My own opinion on abortion is very, very simple, it is wrong under [b]any[/b] circumstances. I consider abortion to be one of the most heinous crimes that anyone can commit, and doctors who perform abortions to be both breaking their Hippocratic Oath and murdering an innocent child. I find the idea that someone would defend abortion by merely stating that because the foetus has no brain activity in the first three months to be entirely asinine, do we kill people in hospital when they no longer register brain activity ? I think not, so why should we kill an innocent child on those reasons ? I honestly believe that a women who has more than one abortion because she doesn?t want to have children should be taken away and neutered like an animal, extreme yes, but so are her crimes.

In Ireland we have yet to legalise abortion, something I am eternally grateful for. Women and young girls who want an abortion have to go to either Northern Ireland or England for abortions, a practice which is quite expensive and honestly I hope it stays that way. I mean what is so wrong with women just having the child and then giving it up for adoption, now I merely offer than up as a suggestion in the case of women who after a one-night stand don?t want the baby, but God why kill it ? There are so many couples in the world who would love to have a child and are incapable of doing so, people who would make superb parents but for some reason are incapable of having children.

I know these views seem extreme but I have seen the damage first hand that an abortion can cause to a person, and their family. I only have one final statement to make in this post: Just for one moment imagine if your parents/mother had decided she didn?t want you, and she had an abortion, you?d never have been born and never had the chance to do all the things you have done [which includes replying to this thread]. Now explain to me why someone else shouldn't have the right to life when you did ?[/size]

[QUOTE=EvanescenceChiK]I have a small question(yes it does relate to this post)
This is America right?It's a free country right?If so, shouldn't people have a choice about something like this?All through the election, all Bush and Kerry talked about were things such as abortion and that stem cell reaserch thing when we should have talked about the war in Iraq or the oil problems.Really people, should having the option of abortion really matter?Yes, i know there are teen pregnancies and stupid drunken flings and whatever, but if we make such a big deal out of this and it does become totaly illegal, what happens to people who get raped and stuff like that?Then what?[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Just a small note for you EvanescenceChiK, this [b]isn't[/b] America, this is Otakuboards and there are other people here besides Americans. So simply stating that because the practice is legal in America does not automatically make the discussion itself invalid. I'm not taking a rip at you or anything EK I'm merely pointing out that we have quite a diverse membership to OB, something which is often overlooked when it comes to more heated debates. [/SIZE]

[Sara]

[color=#4b4b79]As a gal who has lived her life in an overwhelmingly conservative-christian-republican environment, my feelings on this are mixed.

Except on OtakuBoards (and that's rather pathetic, in a way) I have never heard discussion on abortion that came even close to having two sides. The topic occasionally came up in Theology classes, and it would invariably degenerate into both the teacher and his upper middle class students saying extremely judgemental, nasty things about persons who would even [i]consider[/i] ever having an abortion.

It was kind of awkward.

That being said... In the most idealistic way possible, I believe that life is precious. I can't understand why anyone would maliciously hurt another person. I realize it happens, but it isn't something I can comprehend the motive to (nor do I wish I could.)

In the same way, I like to believe that most people feel the same way about life that I do. I understand that this isn't necessarily so, and it saddens me a little, but I cannot do much about it.

I would like to think that any woman (and hopefully, man) put in a position where abortion becomes a viable option would consider the matter very carefully. The idea that someone would decide to "kill" (I'm not going to get into the question of when or where life starts, so please don't ask me to. The quotes are there because I know it's an issue of debate) her child is heartbreaking in and of itself, and the emotional ramifications are great. (As they are also for adoption. Some women choose an abortion because they can't bear the thought of another person having their child.)

If a woman can look at her situation and see abortion as a viable option, I can't imagine what a difficult decision that would be to have to make. I hope never to be put in a situation where I would have to find out.

two turtledoves,
Sara[/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]Drix mentioned this a while back in the Scott Peterson thread, but I never had time to act on it. Until now.

What are people's opinions on abortion? Should it be allowed to remail legal in the United States (or if it is legal wher eyou live should it remain that way?) Do you know of anyone who has had an abortion? Ect Ect ect. All I'm asking for is a bit of maturity when talking about this topic. Actually a lot of maturity, the same maturity that's needed on the thread about homosexuality.

I believe that abortions should be allowed to remain legal. Although I would never get one myself exept under the most extreme circumstances, I don't believe that it's my right to tell another woman what she is allowed to do with her body. This is a fairly strange stance for me to take on this subject because I am the result of an unplanned pregnancy to a young woman with limited means. However, my birth mother gave me up for adoption, which is a hard choice and I respect her for it.

I'll probably elaborate more later, but I've got to run. Take care and Blessed be![/color]

[rainkius]

I agree with your stance, they should remain legal. In my opinion, (this may sound cold, but i dont mean it that way) an embryo or fetus doesn't have rights until it is viable outside of the womb. With all of our advances in technology, i think the earliest is around 20 weeks. I don't think partial birth abortions are ethical, however. I think if you're going to be having sex, you should be responsible enough to realize you are pregnant with 9 weeks, and be able to take Mifepristone, which terminates the embryo (it's not a fetus until after 9 weeks, or so i was told).

Personally, i'm not sure i could ever have an abortion. I had a slight "scare" first semester last year, and I was faced with almost having to make that decision. I felt like i had no choice but to get one if i was indeed pregnant, but i didn't feel good about it. So, it's hard. I wish no one had to go through it.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']What are people's opinions on abortion? [/color][/quote]

[URL=http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=44426]Now [/URL][URL=http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=34468][b]you [/b][/URL][URL=http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=3985]know.[/URL]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Should it be allowed to remail legal in the United States (or if it is legal wher eyou live should it remain that way?)[/color][/quote]

[color=green]Only in cases of rape, incest or possible harm to the mother.[/color]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Do you know of anyone who has had an abortion?[/color][/quote]

[color=green]I know of people who?ve had them, yes. The only person I know reasonably well who was in a situation where abortion was an option decided to have the child, then put it up for adoption.[/color]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']I don't believe that it's my right to tell another woman what she is allowed to do with her body.[/color][/quote]

[color=green]A fetus is a person, you make it sound as if it is little more than an arm or a foot.

A fetus, even before brain activity, is a stage of human life. To terminate that life without a very good reason is murder.

Today, birth control is both widely available and effective. There is no excuse for unplanned pregnancy.[/color]

[Xander Harris]

Didn't we just do this, like, a week ago?

Ah, well. Abortion I feel is murder, and I am against it in all forms except when having the baby would kill the mother.

[RabidInuFanboy]

I'm against abortion. I just think that even if it's in the womb, that child has the potential to be a great human, and when you abort him/her you're basically denying them that chance to become great.

Even though this has already been said, there is no excuse for a woman to get pregnant accidentally (this does not include rape, incest, any uncontrollable circumstance etc. I'll get to that later.) these days, with birth control pills and protection.

Now if it is uncontrollable, I say have the child and give it up for adoption, if you don't want it. There are many couples in todays world that cannot have children and want them, a couple of my aunts and uncles, for instance.

That's just my view on things and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

[Brasil]

Let's just lay down some common things first.

1) Being Pro-Choice is not being Pro-Abortion.

2) Nobody in their right mind would argue that Abortion is good.

3) Nobody in their right mind would argue that Abortion isn't a physically damaging process.

With those out of the way, I feel that Pro-Lifers are taking more of an extreme stance than Pro-Choicers. I really think that if we were to look at things objectively, we'd see that banning Abortion (and let's be frank here: the positives and negatives of which are on a case-by-case basis) is probably the least effective action.

I'd use the media as an example. Are we going to go ban violent television and video games because a handful of misguided children (whose violent tendencies clearly stem from something more than just TV and games) happen to lash-out? No, because banning violence in the media is simply applying a band-aid to a symptom, and not the real problem at hand, the real problem being a lack of emotional stability. A killer doesn't have to listen to Marilyn Manson to kill someone.

Really, that's how I view this Abortion issue. Banning it is only an attempt to apply a band-aid onto a symptom of the much larger issue of a population whose sexual tendencies are becoming more and more dangerous.

Bringing in media again, this is why I laugh at whatever rubbish comes spewing out of Jen Giroux's mouth as she tries to claim that Dr. Drew is agreeing with her entirely as she condemns Desperate Housewives and tries to get it banned off the air. Dr. Drew is against banning Desperate Housewives because he realizes that it's only a symptom of the much larger issue (dangerous sexual tendencies).

I don't think banning Abortion is a viable solution at all, quite frankly. I think the most viable course of action would be something like...we try to provide as many support services as possible for the pregnant mother, make sure she knows that she has a support network, express our desire that she doesn't go through with the Abortion, and how we'd much rather she put her baby up for adoption, but not (NOT) condemn her if she ultimately decides to go through with the Abortion.

Really, I think that's the best course of action we have.

[Annie]

[url=http://www.otakuboards.com/showthread.php?t=44426][color=indigo][size=1][b]Here is where you will find my views on this..[/b][/url]When this very topic was already discussed.

I have nothing to say here, if anyone values my opinion, and most of everyone else's, go take a look.[/color][/size]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I'm Pro-Choice, but seeing as I'm not a woman, and not pregnant, then why does my opinion matter?

Think about that, everyone. And you'll see why Pro-Choice is the way to go.[/size]

[Boba Fett]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]I'm Pro-Choice, but seeing as I'm not a woman, and not pregnant, then why does my opinion matter?

Think about that, everyone. And you'll see why Pro-Choice is the way to go.[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=green]I disagree.

Just because I?m not a woman facing this issue, doesn?t mean I shouldn?t have a say in it. In the same way that just because I?m not a minority being discriminated against doesn?t mean I should be indifferent towards racism.

Murder is murder, any way you look at it. No matter how old the victim is.[/color]

[Guest ScirosDarkblade]

That's just your personal definition of murder. So it does depend very much on which way you look at it.

As Siren said, banning abortion is just not viable. It's like trying to outlaw sodomy or something. Good luck enforcing it and distributing penalties....

But, we all have already had this discussion before. It's just going to come down to conflicting moral codes and some people feeling that their personal moral codes are the ultimate and superior ones that should hold precedence over those of others.

[RabidInuFanboy]

[QUOTE=ScirosDarkblade]That's just your personal definition of murder. So it does depend very much on which way you look at it.

As Siren said, banning abortion is just not viable. It's like trying to outlaw sodomy or something. Good luck enforcing it and distributing penalties....

But, we all have already had this discussion before. It's just going to come down to conflicting moral codes and some people feeling that their personal moral codes are the ultimate and superior ones that should hold precedence over those of others.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't have said it any better myself. You believe what you wanna believe and I'm not gonna change your mind by pressing my views on you.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='ScirosDarkblade']That's just your personal definition of murder. So it does depend very much on which way you look at it.[/quote]

[color=green]What? Personal definition of murder?

Murder is killing a human being. A fetus is a human being. You yourself, like everyone else reading this thread, are a former fetus. Therefore, killing a fetus is murder.[/color]