Shame

[Adahn]

[font=Courier New][size=2][color=blue]Oh no! Not another sorry excuse for a philosophical debate thread! And you thought I was done with these.[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]In order to appease those with the 'I hate debates' mentality, I'll make this a little more interesting.[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]For the more lighthearted of you out there, I have a question. What are you ashamed of?[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]To start off the neat little sharing of tales, I'll post my own little tidbit.[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]Last night, my brother needed help with his biology class, and I brushed him off simply because I didn't feel like helping him. It probably wouldn't have been too hard for me, but the will to help him just wasn't there. He probably had a hell of a time with it by himself, and could be having a pretty bad day today, all because of my selfishness.[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]Now, for the second part.[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]I've been thinking about shame, and have decided that it is a good thing. What we are ashamed of dictates our morality, and because of this it is a useful tool. If one were to consider every decision one makes on the basis of whether that decision will bring one shame or not, that person would lead a virtuous life (if one were to avoid actions that would bring one shame).[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]However, there are a couple perversions of shame. One is that you should be ashamed of something because other people say it's wrong. Another is to consider something right because other people say it's wrong (nonconformity).[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]Many flaws in morality can be attributed to these two perversions, because they emphasize both extremes. The first is the classic religious dogma morality, where right and wrong are made up of long-standing good values, but also of perversions that have stood the test of time. It is from these that the second perversion springs. People recognize the perversions in religious dogma, and use that as a basis for saying that the whole dogma (good and bad) is bad.[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]Well, that's my take on shame.[/color][/size][/font]
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[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]Comments? Personal experiences? All are welcome.[/color][/size][/font]
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[James]

[color=#334366]I think that shame is a tricky thing. Shame is often used to force people into one particular way of behaving.

And shame is often the cause of further problems.

For example, many women who are raped feel [i]ashamed[/i] and that can sometimes partly be the reason why they may not alert the authorities. This also happens with children who are sexually abused. It's often shame that stops them from coming forward and starting a process of recovery (however much one can recover from such horrific events, anyway).

So I don't think that shame is even mostly a good thing. We are often ashamed of things that we shouldn't be ashamed of and that in turn isn't good for one's self confidence and so on.

But like anything else, it depends. Sometimes I think you can be ashamed of yourself for something (maybe a lack of effort in school or whatever) and that can be a good thing, if only because it allows you to acknowledge a personal failure to yourself. And that in turn may help you to change in the future, for your own betterment.

But in terms of public shaming and stuff like that...eh, I don't know. The whole concept of "shame", at least from a religious point of view, seems mostly to be a system of control and belittlement. Not to say that this is always the case, or that shame is always bad (as mentioned above). It's just that I don't think shame is always good.

If you do something (or avoid doing something) because you might feel ashamed otherwise, I kind of wonder how good that is if it's your primary motivation. I know that I don't do good things for people to avoid feeling shame, I do good things because I care about people and I want to help them. So it's not about avoiding the stick or incurring the wrath of a deity, it's instead about improving my relationship with someone and making a genuinely positive impact in their life.[/color]

[Ezekiel]

[COLOR=Orange][SIZE=1]Hey, looks like something sensible comes our way from you, Adahn ^_~

Seriously though, I often think about whether I should be ashamed of something or not, you summed it up pretty nicely with;
[QUOTE]However, there are a couple perversions of shame. One is that you should be ashamed of something because other people say it's wrong. Another is to consider something right because other people say it's wrong (nonconformity).[/QUOTE]

That is very, very true. There are many times when I've done something that others have said was wrong, I hadn't felt ashamed or guilty up to that point but suddenly I feel like a bad person. Some people use this fact to guilt trip people and friends have used it on me before, but by now they know I'm not one to apologise for something if I don't think it's needed.

When I think about it, I believe that [B]shame[/B] and [B]guilt[/B] are very closely related. A lot of the time if I've done something that I [I]know[/I] is bad I first feel ashamed that I did it/didn't think straight, then the guilt sets in. The two work together to make one feeling, I think.

Mm, can't think of any good examples at this moment without delving too deep into my relationships issues, heh, maybe later.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Adahn]

[quote name='James][color=#334366']I think that shame is a tricky thing. Shame is often used to force people into one particular way of behaving.[color=#000000][/quote][/color]

[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]This is true. There is great power in the determination of what one should or should not be ashamed of, especially when many people ascribe to your beliefs, as in the case of religion.[/color][/size][/font]

[QUOTE=James]
For example, many women who are raped feel [i]ashamed[/i] and that can sometimes partly be the reason why they may not alert the authorities. This also happens with children who are sexually abused. It's often shame that stops them from coming forward and starting a process of recovery (however much one can recover from such horrific events, anyway).[/QUOTE]
[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]I think both of these cases result from a single perversion of shame. America has taught its people from childhood to be ashamed of their bodies, especially those parts associated with sex. It is this deep-seeded notion in the minds of all citizens that causes anyone who is sexually violated to feel shame where there is nothing to be ashamed of.[/color][/size][/font]

[QUOTE=James]
So I don't think that shame is even mostly a good thing. We are often ashamed of things that we shouldn't be ashamed of and that in turn isn't good for one's self confidence and so on.[/QUOTE]
[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]All cases of feeling ashamed when we shouldn't is a result of a perversion of shame used as a tool by the government, a religion, the media, etc. to control us (as you touched on above).[/color][/size][/font]

[QUOTE=James]
But like anything else, it depends. Sometimes I think you can be ashamed of yourself for something (maybe a lack of effort in school or whatever) and that can be a good thing, if only because it allows you to acknowledge a personal failure to yourself. And that in turn may help you to change in the future, for your own betterment.[/QUOTE]
[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]Yes, this is where shame can be a useful tool for us to learn and grow.[/color][/size][/font]

[QUOTE=James]
But in terms of public shaming and stuff like that...eh, I don't know. The whole concept of "shame", at least from a religious point of view, seems mostly to be a system of control and belittlement. Not to say that this is always the case, or that shame is always bad (as mentioned above). It's just that I don't think shame is always good.[/QUOTE]
[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]I think that shame on anything but a personal level is wrong.[/color][/size][/font]

[QUOTE=James]
If you do something (or avoid doing something) because you might feel ashamed otherwise, I kind of wonder how good that is if it's your primary motivation. I know that I don't do good things for people to avoid feeling shame, I do good things because I care about people and I want to help them. So it's not about avoiding the stick or incurring the wrath of a deity, it's instead about improving my relationship with someone and making a genuinely positive impact in their life.[/color][/QUOTE]
[font=Courier New][size=2][color=#0000ff]Shame certainly doesn't have to be the primary motivation, but if it were taken into consideration for every decision we make (make a habit of it), it would help us second-guess decisions that seem okay at first, but are actually wrong. It would have helped in my decision not to help my brother.[/color][/size][/font]

[Shugo54]

[COLOR=Navy][FONT=Book Antiqua]Shame.....Shame is something bad but at the same time something good.It teaches you to learn what to do and not to do but at the same time it destroys your self-esteem. I Always think things through because I am afraid to be Ridiculed for something I have done. People view me as crazy because I dont believe in Christ. My family is Ashamed of me because I dont believe in Christ. I am Ashamed of everything I have done. The one that Always haunts me is from 3 years ago......I had been talking to my mom and arguing with her about matters revolving around my family in Guatemala. I told her that she pays more attention to them than to me. She then went into a mad fit and was gonna hit me with a belt. I didn't want to get hit...I was afraid....I had done nothing wrong (well ijn my eyes) I then ran to the kitchen to find a butcher Knife....I threatened her....I told her to Stay Away from me......I had no other choice. My spirit is too free to be controlled by anyone. I never listen to what people tell me. I may sound like a trouble maker but I am actually not. I follow what I think is right. That is why people view me as crazy. [/FONT] [/COLOR]

[Brasil]

On a personal level, I don't even think it's shame, necessarily. I view being disappointed with myself as more as simply not hitting a standard or goal I've set for myself.

I don't feel guilty about doing things incorrectly, or doing things that I feel don't reflect who I really am. They're just simply things that I need to improve upon.

Frankly, people try to guilt-trip me way too much, and it's more annoying than effective. I think Shame is more a social construct than anything else, and...it doesn't serve any purpose other than to piss people off. If people respond well to a huge, extended guilt-trip, though I can't think of any who would, good for them...I think.

All in all, though, regarding Shame?


[center][img]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22245&stc=1[/img][/center]

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE=James]
So I don't think that shame is even mostly a good thing. We are often ashamed of things that we shouldn't be ashamed of and that in turn isn't good for one's self confidence and so on.[/QUOTE]

The other extreme is just as dangerous though. Having no shame is actually rather common these days. I'd rather people be too ashamed of themselves than having very little/no shame.

[Afire]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red]I don't think that shame is a good thing at all.

Shame is hell.

It's not a lack of shame that makes people bad...but a lack of love.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=James][color=#334366]I think that shame is a tricky thing. Shame is often used to force people into one particular way of behaving.

And shame is often the cause of further problems.

For example, many women who are raped feel [i]ashamed[/i] and that can sometimes partly be the reason why they may not alert the authorities. This also happens with children who are sexually abused. It's often shame that stops them from coming forward and starting a process of recovery (however much one can recover from such horrific events, anyway).

So I don't think that shame is even mostly a good thing. We are often ashamed of things that we shouldn't be ashamed of and that in turn isn't good for one's self confidence and so on.

But like anything else, it depends. Sometimes I think you can be ashamed of yourself for something (maybe a lack of effort in school or whatever) and that can be a good thing, if only because it allows you to acknowledge a personal failure to yourself. And that in turn may help you to change in the future, for your own betterment.

But in terms of public shaming and stuff like that...eh, I don't know. The whole concept of "shame", at least from a religious point of view, seems mostly to be a system of control and belittlement. Not to say that this is always the case, or that shame is always bad (as mentioned above). It's just that I don't think shame is always good.




[color=black]I wholeheartedly agree. I suffer from Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder and I live with shame every minute of every day of my life- for things that I am consciously aware were not my fault. It doesn't matter how many times I tell myself that it was not my fault and that it is not truly my shame to bear, it does not lessen... and I will most likely bear the weight of that shame 'till my last breath...[/color]
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[color=black]I also had shame used against me as a weapon of power and control in many horrific circumstances.[/color]
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[color=black]Shame is not always good, as James has said... and I think that it is very seldom a good thing... even when it is your motivation for behaving in a "socially acceptable" manner. There should be another motivation there.[/color]
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[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Afire]I don't think that shame is a good thing at all.

Shame is hell.

It's not a lack of shame that makes people bad...but a lack of love.[/QUOTE]
I have to disagree. Shame isn't all good, or all bad. It's in that middle, grey area. Shame isn't always hell. It can give us a reason to rectify our mistakes, and tells us that we did something wrong.

"I feel guilty... I cheated on a test" That guilty feeling might make you think twice about cheating next time. If you didn't have that guilt, you wouldn't think you did anything wrong. Then what kind of person would you be if you had no shame.

While shame has its bad points, I think overall it has the potential to be constructive or destructive to a person. If someone feels shame over doing something wrong, they might commit suicide if they had other stressors in their lives. In the same instance, if the person felt shame, they might try to make a better decision; one that doesn't make them feel shameful.

All in all, there's a reason why humans feel shame. I'm not sure if everyone believes in evolution, but assuming you do, it was a means of survival. If you felt you did something wrong against another human, you would try to avoid it. With this feeling of doing-right to your fellow-man, you would help the progression of the race if humans worked together, and made positive choices for the good of the group.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Adahn']If one were to consider every decision one makes on the basis of whether that decision will bring one shame or not, that person would lead a virtuous life (if one were to avoid actions that would bring one shame).[/quote]If we used only the fear of shame to guide us in our moral decisions, how would we act in a situation where whatever we did would never be discovered? There would be no shame in say, murdering someone...as long as no-one found out.[/size]