Is the war in Iraq worth the sacrifice?

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]This question was originally posed by CNN this morning yesturday morning so don't beat me up for this idea.

So yeah, the question is 'Is this war in Iraq worth the Sacrifice?

I really don't think so. Yes, part of my saying so is on a personal level. But aside from that where has this war gotten us? Over 1,400 soldiers and Marines killed from the US alone. We're spending millions on this war putting the country more in debt and we were lied to.

And there's this too [quote name='Chris Rock]They told us that Iraq was dangerous and powerful. It took us 2 weeks to take it over. Two weeks, you couldn't take [i]Baltimore[/i'] in two weeks.[/quote].

So that's my opinion, what;s yours?[/color]

[Morpheus]

I think it was worth it. I'd say Saddam would have killed and tortured well over 1,400 souls in the year since he was captured. It looks bad, and some would argue that the people wouldn't have been american, but that doesn't matter. People were being starved, thrown in jail, beheaded, tortured, and treated in other inhumane ways. I think it was worth it to liberate millions, even if some didn't want to be liberated. Just as WWII was worth it, we still have to lose men for anything to happen. We can't just sit back and watch these things occur. It's not like other countries would have done anything about it.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']So yeah, the question is 'Is this war in Iraq worth the Sacrifice?[/color][/quote]

[color=green]Yes.[/color]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']I really don't think so. Yes, part of my saying so is on a personal level. But aside from that where has this war gotten us? Over 1,400 soldiers and Marines killed from the US alone.[/color][/quote]

[color=green]This war has freed a nation from years of oppression by the hand of a dictator who?d committed all sorts of terrible crimes, started a democracy in a region where there are very few and ensured that Iraq will never have the capability of producing weapons of mass destruction.

Whether you agree with the decision to go to war or not, I hope you realize that we?re committed. We can?t simply just get up one day and leave; it?s imperative that the country becomes stable before we withdraw our troops. If we were to leave now, it?d allow insurgent forces to possibly destroy any chance of a democracy in Iraq.[/color]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']We're spending millions on this war putting the country more in debt and we were lied to.[/color][/quote]

[color=green]Hundreds of Billions.

You seriously think that the president would all out lie to the American people?

I?d say that Bush was misinformed or misled, but not that he lied.[/color]

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]

I really don't think so. Yes, part of my saying so is on a personal level. But aside from that where has this war gotten us? Over 1,400 soldiers and Marines killed from the US alone.


[/color][/QUOTE]

And the majority of British soldiers dying are being blown up by American friendly-fire. So, no it's not worth the sacrifice if Bush and Blair aren't even training troops well enough before sending them onto the lines.

But of course it's worth it. Just be thankful that it hasn't triggered off a World War due to Iraq's relations, Iran may do. (Which is most likely going to be before NK in my opinion.)

[Retribution]

Although I'm not pro-Bush, I do think the Iraq war was worth the sacrifice. Personally, I wouldnt've gone in there, but now that America is already in it deep up to the neck, it's too late to turn back. Instead of cry about the bad points, I try to dwell on the positive.

People have already mentioned here that Sadaam has tortured more than just 1,400 people, and probably would have done even worse things if he had stayed in power. I still have no idea why Bush went over there to fight. There were no weapons of mass destruction, but at least we did [i]something[/i] good overthere.

I'm sure the people over there appriciate it, being rid of a dictator. Of course, there are always the few who wish he were still there.

[Xander Harris]

Hmmm. This is a tricky question.

I don't think the lead up to the war was handled properly. I think a lot of the President's logic was faulty, and the intelligence was crap.

However, the question you are asking is not if we were justified in going in there in the first place, but if the sacrifices are worth it for the goal.

As I hear reports of thousands of Iraqis turning out to vote today, I think I'd have to say yes. A free, democratic, and pro-US Iraq could be a powerful weapon in the War On Terror. And whatever the US motives for toppling him really were, getting rid of Saddam was most certainly a good thing.

In the end, I would say yes, most definately the costs are worth it. Although in the end I do hate to see our troops die and our deficit go up, the optimist in me sees value in the sacrifice. But only time will tell...

James Bierly

[elfpirate]

[color=darkgreen]Saddam ruled as Hitler ruled and, just as we failed to do something about the Holocaust until Pearl Harbor was attacked, we failed to do anything about the horrors of Houssein until 9-11.[/color]

[color=#006400]Bush lied to the American public about a great deal of things, such as the whole WMD's crap (in reality, America gave Saddam both biological and chemical weapons capabilities to use against Iran... which he ended up using on his own people, littering the streets of Iraq with the bodies of innocents, including women and children, and maiming/disfiguring thousands).[/color]

[color=#006400][/color]
[color=#006400]We had a chance to remove Houssein and his sons and the rest of the regime the first time we were at war with them, and we didn't.[/color]

[color=#006400][/color]
[color=#006400]Saddam is a murderer, a torturer, a sadist, and is guilty of ethnic cleansing on a grand scale. The atrocities committed under his reign can never be justified.[/color]

[color=#006400]Just as the Gestapo of the 3rd Reich kept immaculate records, so did the regime of the Housseins. Names, birthdates, torture methods used, heights and weights of victims, etc... it's all been immaculately recorded and new horrors come to light each day. I believe that when the record books are finally laid open for all to see, it will be clear to all (at least in hindsight) that someone needed to go in and stop this revolting disregard of human life and the absolute brutality of this sadistic ruler or we would have yet another Holocaust to mourn for eternity.[/color]

[color=#006400][/color]
[color=#006400]I believe that, although Bush is a lying jackass, this war is wholly justified . What was going on in Iraq was very reminiscent of the Holocaust... and to turn a blind eye to the massacre and torture would be just as bad as committing the atrocities ourselves. [/color]
[color=#006400][/color]
[color=#006400]I am grateful that there are still people who will lay down their lives in the name of justice and freedom... whether it be their own freedom or the freedom of others.[/color]

[color=#006400][/color]
[color=#006400]Casualties are the reality of war... but those soldiers believed that risk to be worth taking, or they wouldn't be there. They die for freedom and justice... and if that is[/color]
[color=#006400]not something worth dying for, then I don't know what is.[/color]

[color=#006400][/color]
[color=#006400]I would rather die upon my feet, (fighting) than to live upon my knees...[/color]

[color=#006400][/color]
[color=#006400]I guess my point is this- regardless of the lying , treacherous paths our politicians take, a war for the freedom of a terrorized nation and justice for the innocent is a noble thing... and I support it wholeheartedly... and no, I do not like war one bit... but it truly is a necessary evil at times.[/color]

[Zenriek]

I'd say it is and it isn't worth it.

One, it's worth it because Saddam would've killed more and more people. The rule they were under was horrible, and they needed a change.

But all the deaths of the Americans could or couldn't've been worth it. For one, we're being killed by people who don't understand what we're doing and think we're trying to take over or something like that. Then other people who are killing us don't want a democracy, and want dictatorship again.

It's a bit worth it to say that the war isn't over in the US, though there are some people coming over for bad reasons.

This war is good and bad, but war is never good in the first place, is it?

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=Zenriek]But all the deaths of the Americans could or couldn't've been worth it.

[color=darkolivegreen][/color]
[color=darkolivegreen]Would their deaths be worth it if it were your family and friends that were subjected to the horrific tortures, etc? What is the price you are willing to pay for the end of the suffering and the killings of innocent men, women, and children? [/color]

[QUOTE=Zenriek] It's a bit worth it to say that the war isn't over in the US, though there are some people coming over for bad reasons.

[color=darkolivegreen]The location of the war would not change the principles over which the war were fought. Those of us who understand the necessity for this war would stand strong in our convictions even in the face of the danger and destruction. It's not like we are blind to the atrocities of war.[/color]

[color=#556b2f]And the last part of that statement- "some people coming over for bad reasons"- can you clarify exactly what you were trying to say by that statement? You left it quite vague...[/color]

[Zenriek]

Yes, Elf, I know, I know....

The war was a bad idea in the first place, but considering we can't get out of it, what can we do but fight? I know no one likes the deaths, especially if they're friends and/or loved ones. I'm sorry I made it seem as if it didn't matter, it does.

And by "people coming over here for bad reasons", I mean, Iraqi terrorists and such are making it over the border and are threatening us.

They say they've got the small pox virus, and that they will release it if they have to. That's the only thing I've heard so far, but I know there's more. Either I can't remember, or I haven't heard... Ah well.

Sorry again, Elf.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[color=indigo]I think this is a very premature question. How can you evaluate the worth of something that hasn?t occurred yet?

The truth of the matter is you can?t evaluate whether or not the sacrifice was worthwhile or not. Right now it is hopeful, a huge percentage of the Iraqi people voted this past weekend, and there was quite a bit of rejoicing. With Saddam ousted there is a chance that Iraq could have a strong democratic government and help influence the end of tyranny throughout the Middle East. Or the whole country could fall to pieces.

Again, it is a bit too early to evaluate the worthiness of the war.[/color]

[Harry]

It will only be worth it if we use Iraq as a foothold to destroy our true enemy, Saudi Arabia. It doesn't have to be within the next year, or ten, but it will be worth it if Saudi Arabia falls.

[James]

[color=#334366]I'm definitely not pro-Bush as such, but I think (and have always felt) that the war was the right thing to do.

The intelligence on Iraq was largely wrong, but there are still many unanswered questions there. The main thing is, Iraq's weapon and ammunition stockpiles had been recorded during the 1990's and a large percentage of that is still unaccounted for. If Iraq had destroyed those stockpiles (as it claimed), then it would have been able to provide evidence of that -- either the UN would have been able to interview those who oversaw the destruction, or they'd have been able to visit the relevant sites where the weapons were destroyed.

So ultimately, the pressure was not on the UN or the US to find weapons. It was on Iraq to clarify outstanding weapons records. Let's be really clear about that from the start.

In regard to it being worthwhile or not...I'd say yes, it's worth it. The recent elections (and their apparent success, with both high turnout and low violence) is all the evidence I need at this point. And [i]that[/i] was the primary reason why I supported the military action, even though there were other reasons (both legal and geopolitical).

When you see pictures of people laughing and celebrating due to the fact that they're finally voting in a nation that has been oppressive for so many decades...well, I don't know how you can not view it as a great thing. Of course there are hurdles, disagreements and problems. But we are seeing the birth of a democracy in the center of the Middle East.

And that's a tremendously good thing, for the Iraqi people and the entire world. There's very strong evidence that oppression breeds extremism and terrorism (in our own countries we know that ignorance breeds biggotry and hate for example), so removing the root causes is incredibly important.[/color]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Harry']It will only be worth it if we use Iraq as a foothold to destroy our true enemy, Saudi Arabia. It doesn't have to be within the next year, or ten, but it will be worth it if Saudi Arabia falls.[/quote]
Saudi Arabia is our ally, so I don't really see what you're getting at. The only reason we aren't using our bases there is because they won't help hurt the muslim world.

[James]

[quote name='Morpheus']Saudi Arabia is our ally, so I don't really see what you're getting at. The only reason we aren't using our bases there is because they won't help hurt the muslim world.[/quote]

[color=#334366]The reason they didn't allow the use of their bases is because they're worried about an uprising. Believe me, their goals are not at all related to humanitarianism, lol.

Saudi Arabia is only an ally of necessity. If the US ever achieves energy independence, Saudi Arabia will have lost most of its economy and will no longer have any support from anyone. Thus, the closer that point gets, the closer the regime there gets to extinction.[/color]

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=Heaven's Cloud][color=indigo]
Again, it is a bit too early to evaluate the worthiness of the war.


[/color][color=red]No, it is too early to evaluate the [i]effectiveness[/i] of the war. It is not too early to evaluate the [i]worth [/i]of the war... and I evaluate it to be a war worth fighting, as the effort to stop oppression, tyranny, and ethnic cleansing is worth everything we as humans can give to one another. What is life worth without freedom and justice? If this war is not "worthy" of our effort and our sacrifice (regardless of our success, I might add), then what [i]is[/i] worthy?[/color]
[color=#ff0000][/color]
[color=#ff0000]I would be proud to die for the cause of freedom and justice and would find myself "unworthy" of my own life if I was unwilling to sacrifice it for the people who have been denied freedom and justice.[/color]
[color=#ff0000][/color]
[color=#ff0000]It remains to be seen if our efforts and sacrifice will be enough to bring about change, yes, but it is a cause worthy of the fight... and I believe that that is something that could be evaluated from the beginning.[/color]
[color=#ff0000][/color]
[color=#ff0000]By the way- in case anyone's wondering, I'm not attempting to attack anyone on this thread- I simply have very strong feelings on this matter and can't resist responding to certain things... so I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a jerk- I mean no personal offense... I just lack social skills and don't care to sugar-coat anything.:smirk: [/color]
[color=#ff0000][/color]

[Harry]

[quote name='Morpheus']Saudi Arabia is our ally, so I don't really see what you're getting at. The only reason we aren't using our bases there is because they won't help hurt the muslim world.[/quote]
This is why we need to take them down. People believe this for some reason. There's a very good reason why Osama Bin Laden, most of the 9/11 hijackers, and hell a good number of terrorists are from Saudi Arabia.

[James]

[color=#334366]I think it's like any war of this kind; it takes a decade or two to actually see things from a clearer perspective.

Some people are saying that the coalition should already get out of Iraq. But the United States was in Japan for some ten years or so. I mean...I just think most of those people simply don't know/understand their history.

So the answer to that point is yes and no; we can evaluate some things and we can say that the motives are right, but I don't think that we can actually declare a 100% success at this point. It takes time and baby steps, like anything of this kind. But if you know your history, you know that history is mostly on your side so far.

Regarding the Bin Laden thing...it's ironic that he is also an enemy of Saudi Arabia's royal family. The problem with that environment is that you not only breed terrorists who attack other nations, but you also breed people who want to overthrow their own government (but who would rather replace it with something potentially far worse).[/color]

[Morpheus]

There are a good number of terrorists in every single country. Have you ever heard of the KKK?

On a side note, Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia, but he was sort of...how do you say...exiled.

[James]

[QUOTE=Morpheus]There are a good number of terrorists in every single country. Have you ever heard of the KKK?

On a side note, Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia, but he was sort of...how do you say...exiled.[/QUOTE]

[color=#334366]I'm not sure if I'd call the KKK "terrorists", at least in terms of comparing them to Al-Qaeda. I mean, at the moment (and for a while) they seem to be a pretty lame group of people who's ideology is thankfully not too popular. At least they aren't bombing buildings and stuff.

You're right about bin Laden, which goes back to my point; the Saudi royal family isn't a fan of the guy. But the bin Laden family is still one of the most powerful families in the Middle East, as they own several large businesses in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.[/color]

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=James][color=#334366]I think it's like any war of this kind; it takes a decade or two to actually see things from a clearer perspective.

Some people are saying that the coalition should already get out of Iraq. But the United States was in Japan for some ten years or so. I mean...I just think most of those people simply don't know/understand their history.


[color=darkred]This was what I was trying to get at when I said in my first post on here that I believe that people will understand things a lot better once the record books have been laid open for all to see... that whole "hind-sight is 20/20" thing...[/color]
[color=#8b0000][/color]
[color=#8b0000]I also think that the people that are saying that the coalition needs to leave Iraq don't understand just how much needs to be done in order to "excorcise the demons of tyranny" so to speak. It isn't simply a matter of removing the tyrant... you can't just go in, remove the government that has been standing for decades, and leave the country you've just essentially turned upside-down to fend for themselves... it's not like they've got experience in rebuilding their country's fundamental structure and certainly they don't have experience in rebuilding the life of the nation with a new-found freedom and system of democracy. It's an entire overhaul of their way of life from oppression and tyranny to freedom and democracy... most of them haven't even experienced freedom within their lifetimes- nor did they ever expect to. They need help with the transition, and it will take time before they "get the hang of it" and can survive as a nation without help.[/color]
[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Harry']It will only be worth it if we use Iraq as a foothold to destroy our true enemy, Saudi Arabia. It doesn't have to be within the next year, or ten, but it will be worth it if Saudi Arabia falls.[/quote]Woah, I'm confused. Since when was Saudi Arabia America's true enemy? Just because so many of the terrorists came from there? Aren't they just an exception and were against the Saudi government in the first place? :confused:

I have a question for supporters of America and the war on Iraq. It is not meant to be rude at all: What do you want?[/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Chabichou'] What do you want?[/quote]
Iraqi Democracy.

[Guest Alchemist]

I am for humane treatment and all that but no it is not worth the sacrafice. more people have been killed in less than 2 years than saddam did in 3 years. And just because bush does not like saddams reign, he does not have the right to "liberate" people in another country. Saddam has not threatned us recently. So i dont think its worth it. Now if it was in Afghanistan than i am all for it.

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
I have a question for supporters of America and the war on Iraq. It is not meant to be rude at all: What do you want?

[/color][color=black]That's easy- freedom and justice for the innocents that were being tortured and slaughtered and terrorized under Saddam's regime.[/color]