Is the war in Iraq worth the sacrifice?

[W00t,iM uNbAnNd]

I believe it is worth it for many reasons. Yes, many US soldiers have died and we are spending billions upon billions, but you can't think just about, "oh, our country is using alot of dough and alot of us have been killed." Think of the good we are creating [I]for the Iraqis[/I] . Saddam killed thousands of his own people for no reason. For instance, there are videos of him taking babies away from women and then throwing them at the concrete wall. He has used biological weapons on crowds of people who in turn perished. He has killed the Kurds from the north for no reason whatsoever. I think that, even though one of the reasons we went to war was found false, there are plenty of other reasons why this needed to happen, a mad man maliciously killed innocent people [I]for no reason[/I] . And you can see that the Iraqi people are majorily (sp?) thrilled at a new beginning. 60% of eligible voters turned out to vote, that shows that something was right with this war, right? So, yes, in conclusion I think that this war was worth it to help a huge mass of people under this tyrant's rule. I would go over there to fight too, and I know it sounds cheesy and alot of people say they would but then would back out if the chance was presented to them, but I in my heart feel it is a worthy cause.

[Guest Alchemist]

Of course they needed to be liberated I am not just going to sit here and say they were fine but american soldiers lives are more important to. And if they were so oppressed than why are their insurgents fighting us? It is not are responsibility for evey third world country. If we could do the same mission with less soldiers and more robots than yea i support it.

[Harry]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] Just because so many of the terrorists came from there? [/COLOR][/quote]
Basically. You don't find it odd at all that a very high percentage of muslim terrorists come from Saudi Arabia? I'm sure the royal family in Saudi Arabia are with us in some degree (how mad could you possibly be at a nation that makes you mega billionaires), but their fundamentalist teachings are hurting us. I'm not saying everyone from Saudi Arabia are terrorists, but the way they do things just breeds terrorism so easily.

[W00t,iM uNbAnNd]

Maybe they are fighting because...umm....umm....their [U]TERRORISTS[/U] . See, some people will fight us (terrorists) but the majority loves that Iraq will be a democracy. Think about others, not yourself. For a moment don't think about the deaths of our soldiers as the only part of statistics in this war. Don't even think statistics, think about your moral duty as a human to help others when they are in great need of help. Think about how the Iraqi people feel so much better now that they know Iraq is no longer a dictatorship, and they will now have a say in what they need and want. You say American lives are more important than thiers... I think that is a bad attitude about others lives, everyone is just as important as anyone else.

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Sepiroth']Of course they needed to be liberated I am not just going to sit here and say they were fine but american soldiers lives are more important to. And if they were so oppressed than why are their insurgents fighting us? It is not are responsibility for evey third world country. If we could do the same mission with less soldiers and more robots than yea i support it.[/quote]
People are naturally afraid of change. What would you do if someone came in and told you that your entire structure of living was wrong and tried to change it?

[Heaven's Cloud]

[QUOTE=elfpirate][QUOTE=Heaven's Cloud][color=indigo]
Again, it is a bit too early to evaluate the worthiness of the war.


[/color][color=red]No, it is too early to evaluate the [i]effectiveness[/i] of the war. It is not too early to evaluate the [i]worth [/i]of the war... and I evaluate it to be a war worth fighting, as the effort to stop oppression, tyranny, and ethnic cleansing is worth everything we as humans can give to one another. What is life worth without freedom and justice? If this war is not "worthy" of our effort and our sacrifice (regardless of our success, I might add), then what [i]is[/i] worthy?[/color]
[/QUOTE]

[color=indigo]I disagree completely; the war will not have been worthwhile if democracy fails in Iraq. The only reason democracy would fail in Iraq is because America somehow screwed up. Therefore, if ten years down the road there is not at least the glimmer of what will be a flourishing Iraqi democracy, America has failed and those lives were wasted.

America has the money and the resources to make Iraq work, and I think (for the most part) Americans love capitalistic democracy so much it is infectious (look at Germany and Japan). Lets be realistic, it is only [b]worthwhile[/b] to do something if you are going to do it to the best of your ability. So far I think America has done an alright job, but our bureaucrats have screwed up more than a few times where they shouldn?t have.[/color]

[James]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Woah, I'm confused. Since when was Saudi Arabia America's true enemy? Just because so many of the terrorists came from there? Aren't they just an exception and were against the Saudi government in the first place? :confused:[/quote][/color]

[color=#334366]Saudi Arabia is a problem for many reasons. For one, Saudi Arabia is the main supplier of religious fundamentalism. Haven't you heard of the schools in Saudi Arabia that do nothing but preach hate and death to outsiders?

The country is a breeding ground for terrorists and extremists. So it is really the natural enemy of many countries, including many of its own neighbours.[/color]

[quote=Chibachou][color=#004a6f]
I have a question for supporters of America and the war on Iraq. It is not meant to be rude at all: What do you want?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#334366]I want justice. Justice meaning, freedom for the people of Iraq. Not just freedom, but [i]responsible[/i] freedom -- freedom that involves seperation of powers and transparency/accountability for those in power.

The Iraqi people want to be free. They have tried to rise up against Saddam on at least two occasions after the first Gulf War. And their jubilant reaction to the elections is further evidence that they [i]wanted[/i] to be freed but could not do it on their own steam.

My support for the war (apart from the legal support, which I've gone over before) largely comes down to humanitarian goals.

I [i]don't[/i] find human suffering acceptable and I [i]don't[/i] think that we should always "stay out of each other's business" and accept the status quo.

All too often, the status quo involves violent oppression, denial of education, denial of civil rights and so on. It takes effort (and yes, death) to actually get in and solve these problems. But they are worth solving.

When Iraqi children grow up, they will hopefully be used to living in a democracy where they have choices in life -- choices in education, job, family and so on. They won't have to live under oppression and murder, as their parents and grandparents did. That, to me, makes this entire exercise worthwhile.

Basically, I consider my support for the war as a compassionate and humanitarian stance. You've seen my posts about civil rights on OtakuBoards and you know that I believe in tolerance and equality. So it shouldn't be confusing that I supported the liberation of Iraq -- despite the problems, which are always going to exist no matter what we do, the final outcome is what makes all of it worthwhile.[/color]

[quote name='Sepiroth']I am for humane treatment and all that but no it is not worth the sacrafice. more people have been killed in less than 2 years than saddam did in 3 years. And just because bush does not like saddams reign, he does not have the right to "liberate" people in another country. Saddam has not threatned us recently. So i dont think its worth it. Now if it was in Afghanistan than i am all for it.[/quote]

[color=#334366]More were killed in less than two years than Saddam did in three years? No.

It is estimated by Amnesty International (who were opposed to the war) that upwards of [b]30,000[/b] innocent Iraqis were arrested, tortured and murdered [b]each year[/b] by Hussein's regime. The war has of course killed people on all sides, but the figures don't even come close.

In addition, you will find that there are multiple legal factors involved with the war. Saddam Hussein already violated the Gulf War I treaty by firing at aircraft in UN-monitored no-fly-zones. This [b]alone[/b] would be reason enough to take military action, because it signifies a violation of the GWI treaty and therefore, a resumption of military action.

Remember, when Gulf War I ended, it ended with a cease-fire. That cease-fire was conditional, based on certain undertakings from Saddam Hussein's government. By violating those undertakings, he has knowingly scrapped the agreement, which by legal default returns Iraq and the allied nations to a state of war.

In addition, Iraq violated resolution 1441, which set a [b]specific[/b] timetable on verifiable disarmament.

So there are several misconceptions on all accounts. Saddam didn't threaten the US recently? Well, sending anti-aircraft trucks into the desert, to try to shoot down allied aircraft (who are on legally sanctioned patrols) couldn't be considered non-threatening. And that's only one facet of the story.[/color]

[Guest Alchemist]

[quote name='Morpheus']People are naturally afraid of change. What would you do if someone came in and told you that your entire structure of living was wrong and tried to change it?[/quote]
Thats the point i w as trying to make but still sound caring. Bluntly put they were fine with their system for years, why change cause a westearn power tells you that you are wrong and they are right. Bluntly we should have never gottten involved in the first place. Because if we did not do anything the International Community would be mad at us for not helping but when we go in they get mad also(no anti european remarks intended). The price for being a superpower. We just should stay out of it. I dont bother you , you dont bother me.

[James]

[quote name='Sepiroth']Thats the point i w as trying to make but still sound caring. Bluntly put they were fine with their system for years, why change cause a westearn power tells you that you are wrong and they are right. Bluntly we should have never gottten involved in the first place. Because if we did not do anything the International Community would be mad at us for not helping but when we go in they get mad also(no anti european remarks intended). The price for being a superpower. We just should stay out of it. I dont bother you , you dont bother me.[/quote]

[color=#334366]They were fine with their system? No, they weren't. As I mentioned in my last post, they tried to rise up against Saddam at least twice during the 1990's. They [i]weren't[/i] fine with their system and they were crying out for help.

To say such a thing only demonstrates that living in a free country can put you in a complacent bubble. It's really really easy to say these things when you can just switch off your computer and do as you like.

It's 100% different when you're actually living in terror day after day. Spare a thought for those people.[/color]

[W00t,iM uNbAnNd]

[QUOTE=James][color=#334366]They were fine with their system? No, they weren't. As I mentioned in my last post, they tried to rise up against Saddam at least twice during the 1990's. They [i]weren't[/i] fine with their system and they were crying out for help.

To say such a thing only demonstrates that living in a free country can put you in a complacent bubble. It's really really easy to say these things when you can just switch off your computer and do as you like.

It's 100% different when you're actually living in terror day after day. Spare a thought for those people.[/color][/QUOTE]


Wow, what I was trying to say in two posts you got across in 3 very short paragraphs. lol Anywho, yes, the the many people that strongly oppose the war really don't understand [I]how the Iraqi people must feel everyday[/I] in the grip of that monster. Everyone is intitled to their own opinion,but everyone should reflect on what they are opposing.


:ball: <-----PoKeBaLL

[Guest Alchemist]

Tell me W00t,iM uNbAnNd, do you know how they feel, or are you relying on the media pictures you see? We obviously would not have insurgents fighting us everyday if Bush(dont want to say WE because it means everyone) was doing the right thing. This is fraction of the death toll considered to africa, due to aids. My theory is that Bush is fighting for oil not to help people. If we were to find a new source of energy for our cars than he would not even care about saddam. That is my theory.

[James]

[quote name='Sepiroth']Tell me W00t,iM uNbAnNd, do you know how they feel, or are you relying on the media pictures you see? We obviously would not have insurgents fighting us everyday if Bush(dont want to say WE because it means everyone) was doing the right thing. This is fraction of the death toll considered to africa, due to aids. My theory is that Bush is fighting for oil not to help people. If we were to find a new source of energy for our cars than he would not even care about saddam. That is my theory.[/quote]

[color=#334366]Okay, but can't you see what's wrong with your logic here? lol.

By your logic, we should automatically say that all police are doing the wrong thing because crime exists. It makes no sense.

The insurgents are fighting for various reasons. Some of them are definitely supporters of the former regime. And others still (the majority) are simply foreigners who have entered Iraq to fight the Americans. Don't forget that bin Laden himself was involved in the Afghan war against the Soviet forces in the 1980's, for no reason other than to "get the foreigners off sacred land", so to speak.

So, the fact that insurgents are fighting back has nothing to do with Bush doing the right or wrong thing. These people would be fighting regardless -- these are the people who carry out terrorist attacks across the Middle East. And don't forget that the majority of people they kill are Iraqi citizens.

And for god's sake...[i]Bush is not fighting the war for oil![/i] That is the lamest possible line when it comes to this war, lol. It's a bandwagon that people jump on with absolutely no knowledge of how the war works or what led up to it.

To be clear, Iraq's oil is not controlled or owned by the United States. The United States is [i]spending[/i] money and not [i]earning[/i] money from the Iraq war. Even if you take into account the private contracts for developers, you're talking about a small fraction of the amount that the USA will be investing in the country.[/color]

[W00t,iM uNbAnNd]

While on the subject of what people say as a theory to why Bush "started this war", I thought I should share a funny one I saw on the net. Some people theorize that Bush really was after France, and went first for Iraq because France and Iraq had a relationship going on with trade, and then would/still will (!) go after France and get involved with France. Lame..... :sleep: <---me so lamed out im sleeping



:ball: <----poKebalL

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=Sepiroth] It is not are responsibility for evey third world country.


[color=darkred]Whose responsibility [b][i]is[/i][/b] it if it doesn't fall into the hands of those of us who can do something about it? As humans, aren't we responsible for one another regardless of the borders on the map? [color=#8b0000]It is all too easy for someone living a cushy American life to shrug and say "It isn't me and it isn't here, so why should we care?"[/color]
[/color][color=darkred][/color]
[color=darkred]Your post says to me: Let the terrorized, tortured, maimed and murdered fend for themselves. Let the Iraqi people disregard their families' safety and rise up against an army of atrocities... when they have no strength with which to fight. I mean, who really cares about the horrors of genocide and tyranny... it goes away when I shut off the television...right?[/color]

[color=#8b0000][/color]
[color=#8b0000]It may be far away and it may be out of [i]your[/i] hands directly, but it is our responsibility to do something about it when innocent people are living and dying in torture and terror and we have the means to stop it. Would you refuse to act if you came across a woman being raped- because it was not [i]your[/i] responsibility? It's the same basic principle... we are all responsible for eachother... and to turn a blind eye to an atrocity being committed is an atrocity in itself...and, in my opinion, a selfish act of cowardice. [/color]
[color=#8b0000][/color]
[b][i][color=black] No one would enjoy freedom if everyone thought "It's not our responsibility to fight for it and it's not worth the sacrifice..." [/color][/i][/b]
[color=darkred]Think about it.[/color]
[b][i][color=black][/color][/i][/b]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Chabichou]What do you want?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Morpheus]Iraqi Democracy.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=James]I want justice. Justice meaning, freedom for the people of Iraq. Not just freedom, but responsible freedom -- freedom that involves seperation of powers and transparency/accountability for those in power.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=elfpirate']That's easy- freedom and justice for the innocents that were being tortured and slaughtered and terrorized under Saddam's regime.[/quote]
Interesting. So, is that all you really want? Are their not any other motives behind the war? Are their not benefits for America for engaging in this war?
[QUOTE=James]And for god's sake...Bush is not fighting the war for oil! That is the lamest possible line when it comes to this war, lol. It's a bandwagon that people jump on with absolutely no knowledge of how the war works or what led up to it.

To be clear, Iraq's oil is not controlled or owned by the United States. The United States is spending money and not earning money from the Iraq war. Even if you take into account the private contracts for developers, you're talking about a small fraction of the amount that the USA will be investing in the country.[/QUOTE]No James, we should all realize that oil plays some part in this war. America's economy depends on it.

The oil in Iraq has been pretty much left alone during all these years with Iraq under U.N sanction. Meanwhile,Iraq's neighboring countries like Kuwait and Saudi continued to sell theirs. Iraq has more oil than these countries right now, and America has found a new source for oil, but how to get it?

It's not like America can just take the oil like that. Therefore, they must remove the current government and replace it with a more "relaxed" one like that in Kuwait. Then, America can get oil sold to them, and at a cheap price to boot.[/COLOR]

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
Interesting. So, is that all you really want? Are their not any other motives behind the war? Are their not benefits for America for engaging in this war?

[b][color=black]If there were more that I wanted, I would have said so. I believe in freedom and justice for all people, and that is what I want for the Iraqi people. [/color][/b]
[b][color=black][/color][/b]
[b][color=black]As far as hidden agendas, I'd like to point out that the American government does not allow its people to be informed of their hidden agendas, (um...that's why they're called "hidden agendas") so the masses will probably never know if our administration had "other motives", as you put it.[/color][/b]
[b][color=black][/color][/b]
[b][color=black][/color][/b]
[b][color=black]Like I said in my last post- we are all responsible for eachother.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#000000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#000000]If no one was willing to take responsibility and make sacrifices for the freedom of others, none of us would be free.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#000000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#000000][/color][/b]
[/color]

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
The oil in Iraq has been pretty much left alone during all these years with Iraq under U.N sanction. Meanwhile,Iraq's neighboring countries like Kuwait and Saudi continued to sell theirs. Iraq has more oil than these countries right now, and America has found a new source for oil, but how to get it?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
That would be a nice point if you ignore the fact that oil in Iraq wasn't halted by sanctions.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[quote name='Harry']That would be a nice point if you ignore the fact that oil in Iraq wasn't halted by sanctions.[/quote]

[color=indigo]Yeah, kinda odd how media in countries like France and Canada (as well as our own, granted) were accusing America of going to war with Iraq strictly to procure oil while France and Canada were violating UN sanctions and buying oil from Iraq via the ?Oil for Food? program.[/color]

[Zeta]

I don't think we can really answer this question as of now.

It would be better asked maybe 10 years from now. Sure right now we are having lots of problems. But what if in 5-10 years, Iraq is the United States of the Middle East? We could say right now it isn't worth it. But then in 10 years we could be singing an entirely different tune.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]Man, this has been going on for only 3 days and I already have 3 pages...man...I guess I found a good topic.[/color]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
Interesting. So, is that all you really want? Are their not any other motives behind the war? Are their not benefits for America for engaging in this war?
No James, we should all realize that oil plays some part in this war. America's economy depends on it. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet] Well, considering that 1.) Iraq's oil accounts for roughly 3% of the Unted States' oil consumption and 2.) The oil production in Iraq has been halted by insurgents I'd say oil is a small part of this, but thank you for playing. Yeah, [i]maybe[/i] we'll get some oil out of this. But aren't you looking at a rather small picture?

From what I can figure Bush either went to war because he would rather listen to his advisors than his father who had said back in '96 that this war would be a bad idea. Smart man that Bush Senior. I think democracy and Iraq's first free vote in over 50 years (that I got yelled at on Sunday for not asking Lincoln about by my riding instructor) is a pretty good reason for this war, and an extremely good reason at that.[/color]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]The oil in Iraq has been pretty much left alone during all these years with Iraq under U.N sanction. Meanwhile,Iraq's neighboring countries like Kuwait and Saudi continued to sell theirs. Iraq has more oil than these countries right now, and America has found a new source for oil, but how to get it?

It's not like America can just take the oil like that. Therefore, they must remove the current government and replace it with a more "relaxed" one like that in Kuwait. Then, America can get oil sold to them, and at a cheap price to boot. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet] Yeah, funny thing about those sanctions, they kind of you know...stop oil sales. Especially when you want to be a law abiding country and not take the oil.

Yeah, we would like a more relaxed, less agressive government to be placed in Iraq. One that wouldn't gas its own people seems like a pretty good idea as well. So lets blame the US and say that all we want is oil....Because we really don't give a damn about anything but ourselves. Good Goddess are you jaded.


Yeah, I don't like this war and I think that the American people were lied to about the reasons for invading Iraq. I think we should have waited until things were more settled in Afghanistan, but I think having an election where 90% of registered voters showed up..., which is more than [i]any[/i] US election is proof that we've made a few differences. So Maybe now that that's happened we can send more troops home, which would be good for many families.[/color]

[Morpheus]

[b]Interesting. So, is that all you really want? Are their not any other motives behind the war? Are their not benefits for America for engaging in this war?
No James, we should all realize that oil plays some part in this war. America's economy depends on it. [/b]
Why is this all so hard to understand? We get our oil from other countries. The idea of invading for oil is, well, retarded. If we wanted oil, we would invest the billions spent on war on factories in Kuwait. Just because they have an abundance of a resource doesn't mean we wanted it. And yes, Freedom and justice are all that we want.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][FONT=Verdana][QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet] Yeah, funny thing about those sanctions, they kind of you know...stop oil sales. Especially when you want to be a law abiding country and not take the oil.

Yeah, we would like a more relaxed, less agressive government to be placed in Iraq. One that wouldn't gas its own people seems like a pretty good idea as well. So lets blame the US and say that all we want is oil....Because we really don't give a damn about anything but ourselves. Good Goddess are you jaded.

Yeah, I don't like this war and I think that the American people were lied to about the reasons for invading Iraq. I think we should have waited until things were more settled in Afghanistan, but I think having an election where 90% of registered voters showed up..., which is more than [i]any[/i] US election is proof that we've made a few differences. So Maybe now that that's happened we can send more troops home, which would be good for many families.[/color][/QUOTE]I'm not saying that all that the U.S wants is oil, just that oil played some part in the invasion. I think there are many factors that would make America target Iraq. America can hit two or more brids with one stone. So, America can free Iraqi people from dictatorship,bring democracy to the middle east, protect themsleves from "terrorist attacks", make a new friend in the middle east and get oil at a cheap price later because they have made a friend. So there are benefits in the U.S. See what I mean?

The reason I think this way is because, although the situation in Iraq was infact bad, there were many other problems in the world that needed far more attention. There are tortures happening in other countries that were far worse than in Iraq. Such as in Serria some third world countries in africa. Really, why was Iraq chosen?[/FONT][/COLOR]