The problem with Homosexuality

[Morpheus]

I don't see what the problem with homosexuality is. I have a friend that's Homosexual and he thought he was straght two years ago. I don't look at him in a worse light because he's Homosexual. It simply makes no sense. If he got married, I would be happy for him. It wouldn't affect me in the slightest. So I challenge [B][SIZE=4]ANYONE[/SIZE][/B] to give me a good reason as to why Homosexuality is so wrong.

[elfpirate]

I don't understand what the big deal is, either. What business is it of anyone else's if two people are in love and committed to one another? Let them be who they are and let them love whom they love, in my opinion.

I, too, would like to see an intelligable reasoning against homosexuality, because the only ones I've heard are "Because it's evil and wrong" and the whole plug-and-socket reasoning (you know what I'm talking about) which are fundamentally poor arguments...

[Drix D'Zanth]

Ha Ha Ha! I wonder if I should just ask James to close this now and save everyone the time.

I would sincerely recommending changing the question from : Give me a reason to why you dislike homosexuality. To: What are your opinions on homosexuality?

It's interesting though, considering that any mild investigation of several world-wide religious creeds consider homosexuality a sin, that is, directly against their teachings. Considering the fact that a great deal of many people's ethics are derived from their religious background, that might explain the moral outrage to homosexuality...

From a sociological principle, it could probably swing both ways (pardon the pun). Some cultures most likely benefited from homosexuality (Thracian, Spartan..etc), whereas it is understood by some historians that homosexuality lead to the decay of late Roman culture.

From a medical standpoint... and I'll be brusque... the male organ doesn't really 'fit' easily into an anus. And the female organs don't really fit at all. So the actual act of homosexuality isn't really biologically natural.

I'm pretty convinced it's a matter of psychology. So I don't really think the fact that I consider it "wrong" really has anything to do with the way I treat homosexuals. Just as I treat a friend of mine who picks his nose... granted, it might bug me or gross me out. He remains my friend despite it all, and I don't see our friendship changing over a single attribute about his character. (I don't intend to trivialize homosexuality, just take the analogy with a grain of salt.)

[Morpheus]

We have seen a thread that talks about what you think. I understand why that People think it is fine. What I don't understand is why some people seem to think it is degrading them. I would like to hear their opinions exclusively.

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Morpheus']We have seen a thread that talks about what you think. I understand why that People think it is fine. What I don't understand is why some people seem to think it is degrading them. I would like to hear their opinions exclusively.[/quote]

It seems as though you misunderstood my post. I don't actually think it is "fine". I think it is "wrong". I don't agree with it. Now, is that what's really bothering you? Do you want people to agree with your opinion on homosexuality? Or is it the treatment of people influenced by their homosexuality that bothers you?

As it were, do you have any sort of rebuttal to my arguments against it?

[Morpheus]

I'm not saying the way you treat homosexuals as what you think of the person. I don't see my friend as doing anything that changes my views on his behavior as he discovered his honosexuality. You obviously dislike the fact that someone picks their nose. I don't dislike theat my friend is homosexual. I started this thread to attempt to find a plausible reason for people disliking homosexuality. I don't really care what everyone else thinks, I just want to see a justifiable reason.

[Skye]

[size=1]*sighs* I?ll give you the most popular reason: because it threatens straight marriage. And Drix dislike?s it because he is a thorough Christian. I don?t blame him for what he believes just because I believe something different. He just feels sorry for me that I can?t see what is right. Sorry, Drix, I?ve had to get that out ever since you made the remark about a year and a half ago about my friend not being a good friend because she didn?t care that I was Pagan and not Christian. (She being the latter.)

Now, I have no problem with homosexuality. I also don?t understand why people have a problem with homosexuality. It is actually sort of a good thing. Think about it. I want you to think this through from both perspectives before any of you give me an argument. All right?

What is the purpose of life? To make more life. And homosexual?s can?t do that. Well, they can, they just don?t like it. Has any of you ever considered overpopulation? Life?s purpose may be to make more life, but death doesn?t happen quickly enough for it to balance. Now can anyone see why homosexuals are a good thing?

If we didn?t have homosexuals(and we always have), then we would probably be so crowded right now it would be nearly impossible to breath. I am not going into ?good? and ?bad? or ?right? and ?wrong?. There is also another thing I want to ask you skeptics. Do you think homosexuals have a choice? In my own opinion, everyone is bisexual. Most just choose not explore their ?homo? side. Of course, it depends on your definition of ?homosexuality?. Does it have to do with reproduction? Or love?

I?m not going to keep debating, as we each think what we think. If I helped anyone to think about this, than I?m glad, but I?m not trying to change your minds. You just have to think about it on your own. This will be my only post in this thread, so please don?t try to change my mind. Sorry if I made anyone mad, but I?ve been dying to get that out for a while.

Rhian[/size]

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Morpheus']I'm not saying the way you treat homosexuals as what you think of the person. I don't see my friend as doing anything that changes my views on his behavior as he discovered his honosexuality. You obviously dislike the fact that someone picks their nose. I don't dislike theat my friend is homosexual. I started this thread to attempt to find a plausible reason for people disliking homosexuality. I don't really care what everyone else thinks, I just want to see a justifiable reason.[/quote]

A justifiable reason for an opinion? How about the few that I listed in my origional reply. The point that seemed to escape you is that it could be anything that causes a disassociation to a single individual. Homosexuality could be one of those attributes... nose-picking , another. The reasons that one person uses to justify his opinion may not always apply to another individual. Christianity, though it may justify my reason absolutely, is going to be ignored by the person who has no problem with homosexuality.

[Gravy Train]

I think that what most people misunderstand is that religious groups that view homosexuality as wrong do not actually hate the people that are gay. Also, they do not judge them based on their actions, but the action in itself is wrong. I don't believe that people who are gay are going to hell or are evil or corrupted in any way, but the action is.

Here is my reasoning as to why the act is wrong.
Nature in itself is inherently good. This is because nature is uncorrupted reality. Reality = truth = good. This is the basic structure of all things moral. Now, as I said before, nature is inherently good, but unlike the rest of nature, humans have the ability to reason, and therefore choose something that goes against the good of nature. This is why homosexuality is considered wrong by some, because it is a product of flawed reasoning. It was never intended by nature and is only brought about by our human reasoning. By blatantly going against nature's intention for reproduction, it goes against reality, truth, and good. B

Being gay is not bad or wrong at all, because for some it cannot be helped. However, carrying out the actions is.

[DarkOtakuBoy]

Here is a different problem I have with homosexuality. I hope this doesnt seem like a rant.

First of all, I'm gay. (well, bisexual leaning towards the gay side. but whatever. I dont like labels) In any case, this means to me that I have a certian gender preference. Its what I'm attracted to. its what I find not only attractive, but also emotionally connected to. I came out not too long ago, around 17 years old give or take a few months, and nothing changed with my friends. As a matter of fact, I told my friends that I had something important to tell them and they were on pins and needles all night until I finally got the [spoiler]balls[/spoiler] to tell them. They were pissed at me because they thought I was gunna tell them something groundbreaking, and they were like, "what?? thats it?? who CARES" lol. I found this awesome that they didnt even (and still dont) SEE it as an issue. I didnt, to this day, lose one friend.
I was lucky. Not everyone is. My point is though, I grew up with my friends and we have been friends for almost ten years. I'm still the same person they knew. What I dont understand about MOST homosexuality is that whole "flaming" thing I've seen at clubs. They come out of the closet and then decide to feed into the lifestyle. You know the stereotype. That "gay" accent, the hand gestures, slang, etc. Well, its all true among so many homosexuals. Other gay people have asked me in the past (seriously, not joking with me) "Why dont you like Cher?" or "OH my GAWD....ewww you are SO not wearing trendy clothes! Goth is like, SO last year" And I think, damn....since when did homosexuality have to mean a lifestyle?
I really believe that so many of those types of people have given us a bad name. Like that whole "Gay Pride" crap. I dont have pride in my preferences. I have pride in my accomplishments. But of course, the public sees the (very) vocal minority and assumes we all talk, act, and yes...even walk, a certian way. The sad part is, most of them do, and its so hard and SO frustrating to meet a gay or bi dude who is "real" and not trying to be "fabulous". This is why I only have one gay friend.

Dark Otaku Boy

EDIT: Since gay marriage was brought up, I wanted to give my opinion. I'm against it. Weird for a gay guy to say that, but the truth is I'm against[B] all [/B] marriage. See, I'm against any institution who tries to dictate love - a biologial emotion - via politics and religious dogma. This is just me. I fully understand how it works for people of certian faiths, and would support your freedom for it. But even if I was straight, I personally would NEVER get married.

[Dragonboym2]

Alot of people put lables on people. I hate that. You say you got ADD or ADHD it's hyperactive cousin, people think your a brain dead freak, or SPED. ADD and ADHD it's hyperactive cousin are forms of Autism. They can't help they way they are, same if your Homosexual, bisexual, hedrosexual, or what ever. I go to a pretty big school, and it was formerly an all girl school. There are alot of lesbians here, and they are some of the bravest people I have ever met. (I'm also a little dissipointed that a couple girls I was attracted to here were lesbians. Oh well.) I know what it's like to be labeled. I have a form of Autisim called "Asbergs Syndrome." It means I have trouble understanding social cues. I have stage one. So does one of my best freinds by the way. So to all of you out there on the fomrams that have ADD, ADHD it's hyperactive cousin, Asbergs, homosexual or bisexual, or just have hard lives, I salute you all.

Mike

[Morpheus]

Drix: I have a Friend that is a christian but has no problem with homosexuals.
DOB: Marriage is a bout rights. Right to be in thehospital room when your significant other is unconscious, Cheaper insurance, etc.
Gravy Train: I've never met nature, and I doubt you have either, so how do we know it's intentions?

[DarkOtakuBoy]

[QUOTE=Morpheus]
DOB: Marriage is a bout rights. Right to be in thehospital room when your significant other is unconscious, Cheaper insurance, etc.[/QUOTE]

I understand that. All I'm saying is, its not for [U]me[/U]. I dont agree with the ideology of marriage. You gotta understand, I know I sound like an Anarchist, but dont confuse that with cynicism.(I've been a punk rocker from the age of 14 to 17. lol. some of those thoughts still dwell within me, even a couple years later) In any case, I just find it messed up in a society where we need a piece of paper like that to gain rights like seeing a loved one on their death bed. Love is love. Thats what I beleive. I dont need no organization to tell me otherwise or put limits on it

[Morpheus]

I'd really like to think that too, but the truth is, there are rules. As much as you don't want that paper giving you rights, it does. Think of it this way: You and your SO are giving each othet those rights.

[Gravy Train]

Okay Morpheus, let's see. In nature, all animals mate with animals of the opposite sex. So, humans doing the opposite would go against that. I don't see how to make it any easier to understand.

[Morpheus]

All animals have homosexuals.

[DarkOtakuBoy]

[quote name='Gravy Train']Okay Morpheus, let's see. In nature, all animals mate with animals of the opposite sex. So, humans doing the opposite would go against that. I don't see how to make it any easier to understand.[/quote]

Ah, but most everything humans DO goes against nature. From building roads and cities, to genetic engeneering. Pretty much every techological advancement these past 200 or so years. I personally believe nature is indifferent to these things and evolution compensates (to a point) for each and every discrepancy. I also hate to bring this up, but whats so wrong about "un-natural" intimate relations when the human population is so high? Believe me, the Earth will suffer for the many [I]other [/I] things we do, like nuclear proliferation, if we dont cut it out, but homosexuality isnt one of them.

[Charles]

[quote name='Morpheus]I don't see what the problem with homosexuality is. I have a friend that's Homosexual and he thought he was straght two years ago. I don't look at him in a worse light because he's Homosexual. It simply makes no sense. If he got married, I would be happy for him. It wouldn't affect me in the slightest. So I challenge [B][SIZE=4]ANYONE[/SIZE][/B'] to give me a good reason as to why Homosexuality is so wrong.[/quote]

I'll bite. The [I]spectacle[/I] of homosexuality is absolute pomp that I disagree with wholeheartedly. Why do you need to root out others who disagree with your liberal opinions on homosexuality just for the sake of doing so? Why should that challenge exist? You've already stated that you're not interested in hearing opinions that [I]support[/i] your way of thinking. You just want [I]dissenting[/I] opinions.

You're comfortable with your friend's lifestyle; there's no conflict. [I]You[/I] don't need to be convinced or re-assured of your friendship. On the other hand, are you willing to admit that you're pretentious enough to think yourself capable of doing what none of these discussions have ever been capable of doing-- sparking a gay rights revolution, totally changing opposing individuals' personal opinions?

There's absolutely nothing to be resolved here. So, why can't you just be happy, co-existing in mutual peace with your friend? I'll tell you why.

You're just using the issue of homosexuality to press an argument. Sometimes I feel as if people on both sides of the issue exploit it just for the purpose of having their voices heard. Treading over a controversial issue such as this, again and again, makes us easily forget that real peoples' feelings and lives are involved. At the same time, there [I]is[/I] an important civil rights conflict at the center of all this. Merely [I]talking[/I] about it can make someone feel important, like what they're saying holds extra importance when it's focused on this subject. So, whether a person happens to be a teenager using their parents' computer, or a politician gaining support for a political campaign, it's easy to abuse the issue by [I]using[/I] it to suit our own purposes. Which, of course is typically just an exercise for flexing our own egos.

That is what is wrong with homosexuality; its vulnerability. It's so easy to exploit that even children on an Internet message board can bend it to their own shallow agendas.

If you were really concerned about your friend's life, you wouldn't need to create threads on OtakuBoards about it. You would be comfortable in giving him the support he needs, becoming involved in local groups, and appealing to area politicians. Taking action and having your voice heard within your community is the only method that will ultimately bring about change. If Martin Luther King Jr. were alive today, I highly doubt that he would be sitting in front of his computer, on an anime message board, simply demanding that people argue with him. So all of you can go on with this discussion for days, just for the sake of having something to argue about and so that you can feel wise/important. But it makes me sick the more I see it because the point of it all is becoming continually more deluded. That's all I have to say.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Gravy Train']Okay Morpheus, let's see. In nature, all animals mate with animals of the opposite sex. So, humans doing the opposite would go against that. I don't see how to make it any easier to understand.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]However I read somewhere that there was a study done on some monkeys in asia where female monkeys were seeking partnerships with other female monkeys...yeah, take that nature!

Ahem... Drix, I have relatives who are both [i]Christian[/i] and [i]gay[/i]. I have no idea what else to add to that except a religion that refuses to change it's veiws on everything doesn't have much of a chance of survival. I understand that just becuase you hate homosexuality doesn't mean you hate homosexuals, but hey...all they really want is to be treated as equals. And like I've offered, you want to debate me my Yahoo IM is Chibi_horsewoman.

Ok...let's see, their are only two problems I can see with homosexuality, one was brought up by my mom and the other is well, not much of one ...let me explain. The way my mom explained it is that companies and the government are looking at same sex marriages from a completely economical point of veiw. Not very fair for the people who want to get married, but I guess it makes sense. My only problem is with the ones who wave their gayness around. My friend Tommee does that...it's very annoying, but that's my only gripe.

For a while the Gardenarian tradition of Wicca debated about allowing homosexuals to practice their trad of wicca because of the affect they would have on the 'balance' because in the Gardenarian Trad they even go as far as having men teach women and women teach men to support the whole balance. They finally decided to allow them to practice. I guess what I'm trying to say there is discrimination because of something God (or in this case Goddess) made you is stupid.


Drix, I'm waiting....
Chibi Horsewoman.[/color]

[elfpirate]

I would like to point out the fact that there are a number of religions that don't regard homosexuality as a sin or immoral but instead think of it as a desirable "deviation" and revere it as a virtue. In those cultures, it is a respectable thing to be gay, and the homosexual inherits the status of shaman, healer, confidant, and "wise one", because the deviation is viewed as being CLOSER to god (or the gods, if it's a poly-deitous religion).

Secondly, EVERY animal species on the face of the planet (save the simple-structured ones that lack genitalia) practices homosexuality. That is a proven and documented fact. And yet they are considered to live free of sin and the capacity for evil. Why should humans condemn one another for loving whom they love (strictly speaking about consenting adults here, of course) when the virtue of love is supposed to be held in higher regard than the instinct of an animal. An animal is driven to homosexuality by instinct... and we are animals, after all... I think it's neat that humans have the capacity for love ...to enhance the instinctual attractions that they feel...

Would people really prefer homosexuals to be lonely and denied the love that they feel for one another (and the love that is a basic necessity of being human) just because "the parts don't fit" or because their deity frowns upon it?

I really believe that it is the sexual act itself that is scrutinized and deemed an abhorration, not the emotions nor the commitments that homosexual couples have for eachother, but people are ignorant and cannot separate the two. We live in a dreadfully sexually repressed society in which sex=shame... and the repressors would like nothing more than to shame homosexuals to death in order for themselves to feel comfortable.

I still haven't heard a convincing argument against it... only the same vague and parroting arguments I was referring to in my first post on this thread...

[Harry]

The problem with Homosexuality is based upon the people that are homosexual. We see in the Bible a prime example in Sodom and Gomorrah when the people lost track with God(became gay) and then decided to try to rape an angel. So it's natural to assume that if there are more homosexuals the number of angel rapes will increase exponentially and lead to damnation of our world much quicker. There's also some other examples, such as when King David fell in love with a man (whom he had mistaken for a woman) and sent off his husband to get killed. This damned David and also doomed Israel for all eternity to hordes of savages.

Secondly, many of the most demented leaders in this world's history were gay. Nero for example would go out and stab people while he was an emperor. He also married a 14 year old boy. Which then led to his dementia. Another homosexual leader was Hitler. Documented evidence has shown that he was in love with a Jewish boy, but the Jewish boy would have none of that so Hitler killed a few hundred Jews. If Hitler hadn't had caught the gay, those Jews would've lived. The list of examples could go on and on but I have a feeling some of you are already writing replies to my post trying to expose my "lies."

Thirdly, having to constantly hear about how gay someone is. If I have to see one more advertisement of Will and Grace on TV my head will implode. That's great you turned your back on God because you want to go insane and rape angels, but we don't need to hear about it.

In short, Angel rape, dementia/genocide, Will and Grace.

[James]

[QUOTE=Charles]That is what is wrong with homosexuality; its vulnerability. It's so easy to exploit that even children on an Internet message board can bend it to their own shallow agendas.

[/QUOTE]

[color=#334366]Agreed.

But moreover, why do we need to constantly raise this topic? Very few people are going to change their opinions based on an Internet message board. People's opinions change based on far more fundamental things -- particularly their own experiences. Generally, I think people come to their conclusions in a variety of ways...message boards are often just a way for people to sound off.

As Charles said, it's all too easy to forget that there are [i]real people[/i] involved in this issue; living, breathing people. It's all too easy to drag such a debate into the mud and turn it into an exercise in grandstanding.

Lately Otaku Lounge has had some great threads with some unique twists. Rather than simply dredging up "controversial" threads for the purpose of arguing and grandstanding, why don't we try to do something more interesting with this forum?

At the very least, let's go for a few months without this discussion, so that newer members in the future have the benefit of joining in, without us constantly retreading the same ground with existing members.

Edit: Raping angels? Geeze. Gotta love painting everyone with an extreme brush.[/color]