Arranged Marriages

[Epitome]

[size=1][color=#003399]Well, today I was talking to a friend online who is about 6-7 years older than I am and he found out today that he is getting married to someone he hasnt even met yet.

He is Arabic and he said that his parents told him today that one of his dad's clients needed a husband for his daughter (they currently live in Saudi Arabia), and to make sure the client stayed happy with John's father they arranged a marriage. When they told him he said he was shocked and didnt know if he wanted to go through with it.

Even though John, [i]Side Note:[/i] not his real name, wanted to do this for his father, he was thinking about coming back to the US just to get away from it. But he thought it over and told me he decided to go through with it. Later that day, he met her and he said she was beautiful and had a great personality.

But to get to the point, has anyone ever had an arranged marriage in their family. Or has had an arranged marriage or is going to have one?

Ive always thought about what it would be like if I did get an arranged marriage. Even though I am caucasion(sp?), I wouldnt mind seeing what it would be like and how it works out. John's dad had an arranged marriage and it seems to me that it worked out fine. His parents are still together so.

But I have also wanted to know how such things work. For example, Johns parents just picked a random girl without even letthing them meet before hand. Is this how it always happens, or do they normally meet before? And who pays for everything? Or do they split it?

Your opinions please.[/color][/size]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Epitome']But I have also wanted to know how such things work. For example, Johns parents just picked a random girl without even letthing them meet before hand. Is this how it always happens, or do they normally meet before? And who pays for everything? Or do they split it?[/quote]
Normally the Parents will meet the girl/guy beforehand. It is usually a son or daughter of a parents friend. But about half of the time the bride and groom will meet at the altar.

The grooms family pays for everything, no questions asked.

On a side note, if he likes her and she can't say no, he is what we deem lucky.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]If an arranged marriage works out, then I guess it is all well and good. But, would you really want to be told who you'd be marrying, with no choice in the matter? Would you think it acceptable to be virtually traded, just for added pull with an important family?

Arranged marriages can work out, but the point is, you can't put two people together and say that they [b]will[/b] love one another. Marriage should be about love, because it means that you are making a lifetime commitment to somebody else. Is it fair for me to force you to marry somebody of my choosing, who you may never have met? No, it's not fair. On the other hand, it's how things are done in some cultures, and there isn't anything you can do. Best of luck to 'John'.[/size]

[MissWem]

[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]Well.. I know with the Chinese arranged marriages use to be a common place if not a requirement. It was set up by the village match maker as soon as the child was born, basing the compatability on various atrological points.

The point is that they didn't have a choice in the matter, however despite that, most of the couples [i]learnt to love each other[/i]. Mostly out of neccessity as they were both in the same situation. Image and honour were important, therefore the husband had to sleep with the wife, the only problem is that if he didn't do it he could blame her 'infertility' for not bearing him a son.

Although, Epitome, your friend is clearly not completely without choice. Afterall he had the option of actually escaping to America. I wish him all the best though, he's lucky that he managed to hit it off with her ^_^[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]It doesn't sound like much fun to me, but I do understand why they do it in some areas. Culture and tradition brings a lot of impact on people.

It's still common place practice in India. However it can be dangerous for the woman if her husband's family doesn't think that the 'bride price' is substantial. There have been killings over things like that.

I'm not really for it. And I have no idea what else to add to this.[/color]

[Panda]

My mom's older brother had an arranged marriage in Japan. My mom said the first time she met her sisiter-in-law was when she moved into the family home. Traditional Japanese families have the eldest son living at home with his parents. Basically his wife helps take care of the husband's family. My aunt and uncle are very happily married and now live in the United States.

My mom teases my big brother she is going to Japan to get him a wife. I seriously doubt she would, but with her family history it does make me worry. I am glad I am not the eldest son in the family!

[Pumpkin]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2] That is an interesting story. Honestly I've never known anyone that has had an 'arranged' marriage before, so I don't know much about other country's cultures when it comes to that. I guess its considered normal. "John" might like his wife-to-be but when you really think about it, this is someone your going to be spending your whole life with. Don't you think you should know the person before-hand?

I could honestly never stand to do such a thing, even if I learned to like the person I had the arranged marriage with. Just the fact that my parents chose someone for me says enough. I agree with Baron Samedi on this one. I would not like the fact that I had someone chosen for me. I would rather fall in love then to learn to love someone over time. It's way too forced, having a choice, is something I cherish.


[/SIZE][/FONT]

[Delta]

[COLOR=#B33D79][SIZE=1][QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]
It's still common place practice in India. However it can be dangerous for the woman if her husband's family doesn't think that the 'bride price' is substantial. There have been killings over things like that.[/color][/QUOTE]Saw a documentary about wife battery in India once. Pretty gruesome stuff; one woman even had to go through a series of operations just to fix her face (which was so messed up, it *kinda* reminded me of melted wax). And to think that marriage was arranged...

[quote name='DerelictDestiny][COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]The point is that they didn't have a choice in the matter, however despite that, most of the couples [i]learnt to love each other[/i].[/SIZE'][/COLOR][/quote]Exactly. I think that it's highly possible for people in an arranged marriage to [i]eventually[/i] fall in love with each other or at least get along well (unless the other one, or his family for that matter, is intolerably horrible). John, despite his situation, is engaged to a woman he likes! It's like hunting for a good match without actually hunting.

But if the girl doesn't like your friend (does she?) then [i]please[/i] advise John to run off to America and save her from the trouble of marrying him. :laugh:[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Kwai]

[size=1][color=navy]I know a few people who have gone through with arranged marriage. In fact, I know more than 300 couples who met each other by arranged marriage. I'm Japanese and I suppose that would make people think that it's a traditional thing, but it actually has nothing to do with my culture. In my case, it's a religious issue. Members of my church can only marry through arranged marriage.

So, in effect, everyone in my church (father and mother included), had their marriages arranged. Kind of crazy and kind of terrifying, especially since my parents are bringing this whole marriage thing up since I'm "of age"...[/size][/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Epitome][size=1][color=#003399]Well, today I was talking to a friend online who is about 6-7 years older than I am and he found out today that he is getting married to someone he hasnt even met yet.

He is Arabic and he said that his parents told him today that one of his dad's clients needed a husband for his daughter (they currently live in Saudi Arabia), and to make sure the client stayed happy with John's father they arranged a marriage. When they told him he said he was shocked and didnt know if he wanted to go through with it.

Even though John, [i]Side Note:[/i] not his real name, wanted to do this for his father, he was thinking about coming back to the US just to get away from it. But he thought it over and told me he decided to go through with it. Later that day, he met her and he said she was beautiful and had a great personality.

But to get to the point, has anyone ever had an arranged marriage in their family. Or has had an arranged marriage or is going to have one?

Ive always thought about what it would be like if I did get an arranged marriage. Even though I am caucasion(sp?), I wouldnt mind seeing what it would be like and how it works out. John's dad had an arranged marriage and it seems to me that it worked out fine. His parents are still together so.

But I have also wanted to know how such things work. For example, Johns parents just picked a random girl without even letting them meet before hand. Is this how it always happens, or do they normally meet before? And who pays for everything? Or do they split it?

Your opinions please.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]Heh heh, I'm Arabic so I can answer a few of your questions.

First of all, I don't think "Arranged Marriage" is exactly an appropriate term for Arabic/Muslim marriages. Arranged marriage is your parents choosing your spouce for you before you are even ready to be married.

However, it's okay for your parents to offer your hand in marriage to someone else as long as they get your approval. Even though your parents' motive for choosing that person for you is about financial and social persuits, there's still nothing wrong with you marrying the person if you have no problem with them. As long as you agree, it's fine.

Sometimes, a parent will simply say "Okay my daughter will marry your son", without consulting you, and they might tell you about it later. Or they might say that to someone in your presence. I think it's because they make the assumption that you will agree. If you don't say anything or object, then they assume that you agree.

Your friend "John's" silence is a sign of his approval. If he doesn't want to go through with it he should really speak up and say so. His parents cannot force him to marry against his will. This is a law in Islam. Both the parents AND the child must agree to make the marriage valid. If the parents are infact forcing their child to marry, then the child should go see the community's Imam or Islamic judge to settle the matter.

The thing about marriage, is that in Islamic culture, more emphasis is placed upon creating and strengthening family ties, starting a household, and having children. There definitely is romance involved, but that comes after you marry.

You might not agree with this, but in Islam, you can't have a romantic relationship without being married to that person. You can't "fall in love", then get married. You get married, then "fall in love" during the marriage.

I know it's very different than western culture, but don't worry, it really works out fine. It doesn't result in loveless marriages. If the person who wants to marry you is nice, has good character and is a person of good morals, and not monstrously ugly, there really isn't a big reason to disagree with the marriage, so usually the kids simply accept. You grow to love eachother because you have a common goal, to be righteous muslims. As companions, you help eachother achieve than goal, and this strengthens your love.

There are different ways to get introduced to a person. Sometimes, a guy just really wants to get married. He want's a companion, he wants to fulfill his desires, and he wants a family. He asks his father and mother to ask around for him. His mom, might get to know someone, and ask, "so, I was wondering if you have any daughters? Yes? Oh that's nice. Well I have a son who would like to get married, maybe your daughter might consider meeting him?"

Same thing can happen with a girl, vice-versa.

Or a guy might have seen a girl at the mosque or at social gatherings, and he might think she is very nice, has good character and moral values, and even pretty (so there might be a bit of physical attraction, but because women cover themselves in Islam, he can't completely judge her by her looks and how "sexy" her body is). So he tells his parents that he is intrested in that girl, and they can go to her family and ask them for him. The guy and the girl can get to know eachother, but still be chaperoned by their parents. Even before the marriage contract is written, the guy and girl can already really like eachother and be eager to marry.

Two men might be really great friends. One of them wants to do a favor for the other and offers his daughter's hand in marriage to his freind's son, but still getting the kid's approval of course. Great opportunity to create family ties and strengthen freindships.

On the topic of the financial issues, the groom is supposed to pay a dowry to the girl he wants to get married to. This is because men are supposed to be breadwinners of the family, and this shows his commitment to the marriage. The girl is leaving her father's care and he needs to show that he is willing to support her. There is no maximum or minimum for the dowry, but the amount should be agreed upon before the marriage contract is written. You can also agree to pay some now, and the rest later, but it is important that you pay that amount you agreed upon. After marriage, the girl can decide to give back the dowry if she wants and that's perfectly acceptable.

There are many stories and sayings about the prophet Muhammad, and we take these stories as examples to follow. Once a man went the prophet and told him that he wants to get married to a girl but he is poor and has nothing. Everyone approves of the marriage and the girl and the parents know he is poor and forgive him for it, but still a dowry must be payed. The prophet tells him, "Give her anything, even if it be an iron ring".

So the dowry can be very little, but still must be somehing material and somehow costs something. Like some cloth, or a grape, meat from a slaughtered animal, etc.

The groom's family does pay for the wedding too, with the groom helping of course if he can. This shouldn't be a big deal though because weddings are best kept simple. The wedding is about informing as much of the community as possible that these two people are married. This is to avoid suspicions of the the public later on.

If the man decides to divorce his wife, she gets to keep her dowry. This could result in finincial loss for the man. The concept of dowry discourages divorce because it shows that there is commimnet involved. Divorce should be the last result for marriage problems and should only be done if the situation is hopeless.

If the girl wants the divorse, she must pay compensation. It doesn't neccesarily have to be her entire dowry, but it's supposed to make up for that and any financial losses the man suffers because of the divorce. The man has made sacrifices for the marriage, and it would be unfair to him if he is not payed back.

Ofcourse, there are acceptions if abuse is involved. If a man is purposely hurting and beating his wife, using foul language and just being plain mean so his wife would buy herself free, then matter should be taken to a judge and the wife would not have to pay compensation for a divorce.

Who gets custody of the children if there is a divorce? Well assuming the fact that both parents are good people (they just don't get along), the mother gets custody for children when they are young, so that's 11 and under for boys and 9 and under for girls. If they are older than that, they usually go to their father. But divorce is usually decided by the husband, as I said earlier, which probably means the wife herself didn't ask for the divorce. It's not neccesarily fair that he keeps the children, even when they are older, because the wife carried them in her belly for nine months, nurtured and and fed them. Therefore, they can remain in her cusody as long as she doesn't remarry. Ofcourse, the parents might simply agree on who gets custody without the need for resorting to these conditions.

Whew!

I think that's all I have to say for now. Feel free to ask questions.[/COLOR]

[EVA Unit 100]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I think that's all I have to say for now. Feel free to ask questions.[/COLOR][/quote]

I have one: how would the entire Islamic marriage deal work out if someone was gay

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004A6F][quote name='EVA Unit 100']I have one: how would the entire Islamic marriage deal work out if someone was gay[/quote]Okay what is the point of this question? Homosexuality is not allowed in Islam, so no one's going to accomodate for homosexuals. If a guy is gay, then his parents are going to worry more about dealing with his homosexual problem than about him getting married.

We don't need to turn this into another homosexuality debate. Homosexuality= Big Sin, therefore not allowed in Islam. End of story.[/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004A6F]Okay what is the point of this question? Homosexuality is not allowed in Islam, so no one's going to accomodate for homosexuals. If a guy is gay, then his parents are going to worry more about dealing with his homosexual problem than about him getting married.

We don't need to turn this into another homosexuality debate. Homosexuality= Big Sin, therefore not allowed in Islam. End of story.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]Eh, it happens in every religion and somehow someone deals with it...end of story.

Now I'm surious, if there really isn't much social interaction between men and women (ie there are separate areas for men and women in mosques (right?)) how do they learn to act around one another socially? Because you act differently around men you aren't related to than the one's you are.

I know muslim women keep themselves covers (so do men...no shorts, no short sleeved shirts, ect ect) But couln't a man decide that he likes the woman's eyes or something...yeah I know dumb question.

Also, I still don't see how it would work. I guess since it's been done for thousands of years and it's produced children that it does work, but from my western views it wouldn't work well for me. I'd rather get to know someone first before I start sharing a bathroom and a bed with them.

Finally, I know this may sound a bit personal, but since you're a Muslim woman who was born in the middle east and now lives in Canada, will you be having an arranged marriage yourself, or will you get to meet the guy and maybe go out on a supervised date before you get married?[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Now I'm curious, if there really isn't much social interaction between men and women (ie there are separate areas for men and women in mosques (right?) how do they learn to act around one another socially? Because you act differently around men you aren't related to than the one's you are.[/color][/quote]It's okay for unmarried men and women to speak together, so long as their is some kind of barrier (some distance, clothing that covers properly, maintaining a level of respect, and not staring at the person). The topics discussed should not be about personal and emotional matters however. A man and woman shouldn't be alone together, because that has a possibility of leading to and illegitimate relationship. So how do women act around men you ask? Well, respectfully and with good intentions. You may joke around and be playful with your male relatives, you don't have to cover your hair when in their presence of course.

When I say male relatives, I mean those who you cannot marry. That would be your father and grandfathers, your uncles and your brothers. Although a cousin is a relative, you are still allowed to marry them, so you have to wear your hijaab around them. In addtion, you don't have to wear your hijaab around your father in law.

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']I know muslim women keep themselves covers (so do men...no shorts, no short sleeved shirts, ect ect) But couln't a man decide that he likes the woman's eyes or something...yeah I know dumb question.[/COLOR][/quote]Yeah sure, there is still a possibility for some physical attraction as I stated in my first post.

Oh and you had it wrong for what men have to cover. They must cover from their navel to knee. No one except for a man's wife is allowed to see this area. This is the minimum requirement of clothing for men, and this applies to when they are in front of women too. However, this doesn't mean men can go around showing of their big abs to women, so if they have a shirt, they should wear it.

Women must also cover from navel to knee except in front of their husbands. The reason breasts aren't stated obove is because of breastfeeding. It's okay if other women see you breasts because of that, but of course, you would normally wear a shirt, which is a must in front of male relatives.

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Finally, I know this may sound a bit personal, but since you're a Muslim woman who was born in the middle east and now lives in Canada, will you be having an arranged marriage yourself, or will you get to meet the guy and maybe go out on a supervised date before you get married?[/COLOR][/quote]As I stated in my first post, the term "arranged marriage" is not correct when talking about muslim marriages. No one is "arranging" anything for me. Either some of the people my mom knows will ask if I'm interested in meeting their son, or a guy who knows me a bit and likes me will ask my parents who will in turn ask me if I want to meet him, and if I like him and think he is a good muslim with personality, I will probably say yes, or if I'm not quite ready I might ask to wait a couple years.

In terms of dating, that doesn't come until after the marriage contract is written. I don't need to go out on a date with a guy to see if I like him. I get to know him by asking him questions and my parents ask him questions, and we ask around the community to see what people think of him, and to see if their might have been any problems he didn't mention.

When the contract is written, that means they are married, but still, the girl hasn't moved in with her husband yet. He may see her without my hijaab on, and may hold her hand or kiss her, but you shouldn't go "all the way" untill they actually live together. The bride and groom can be left alone, but not [I]alone[/I]. Maybe they can sit together in the living room while another relative is nearby in another room. The relative isn't spying on them or eaves dropping, it just gives an opportunity for interruption. Or maybe he can drive her to school if she's still in highschool or university, or to work. Or they can have a date. The relative doesn't need to go with them on a date or in the car ofcourse, because the source of "interruption" is the public. They just can't be [I]alone[/I] in a house.

People usually have two parties, one for when the contract is written, and many people call it "engagement" but they really are married. The girl can dance with her husband and stuff like that. And then when they actually live together, there is the actual wedding, more dancing and fun to come.

Although divorce is really discoraged in Islam, though still permitted, the fact that the man and woman don't get too close between engagement and the actual wedding, gives opportunity to end the marriage if there are problems. And since they wouldn't have kids then, it won't cause too many difficulties.[/COLOR]

[Godelsensei]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]No one is "arranging" anything for me. Either some of the people my mom knows will ask if I'm interested in meeting their son, or a guy who knows me a bit and likes me will ask my parents who will in turn ask me if I want to meet him, and if I like him and think he is a good muslim with personality, I will probably say yes, or if I'm not quite ready I might ask to wait a couple years.

In terms of dating, that doesn't come until after the marriage contract is written. I don't need to go out on a date with a guy to see if I like him. I get to know him by asking him questions and my parents ask him questions, and we ask around the community to see what people think of him, and to see if their might have been any problems he didn't mention.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Sounds arranged to me.

Basically, the message I am getting here is that you can't go out and just meet up with whoever you want, on the grounds of you liking them. How can you possibly decide whether you like some one without meeting them in an individual-to-individual situation?

I think the main concept people have of arranged marriage is something that isn't primarily exclusive between the husband and wife. Marriage is about individuals, not religion or parents. Sure, family should give input as to whether or not the person seems decent or honest, but that is but on top of the relationship two people have developed.

And, as a matter of interest, what happens if a girl decides she wants to foresake her religion and live life as a spinster? Or if she has sex before marriage or decides to marry a black guy?

Arranged marriage is a disregard for people's right to live as they wish. It is a disrespectful, outdated act that should not be tolerated, regardless of the traditions of whatever culture.
In a society where we are granted the right to live however we choose, this should not extend to restricting the lives of our children.

It's simply a matter of respect.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Why don't you leave Chabichou alone with her marriage, Godel. I don't think she has a problem with doing things "differently" i.e. not the western way, (and you should also respect that), so why should you?

Hmm.... I don't really know much about arranged marriages in China or India, but here's a good, very objective link to a site that explains the dowry system in India (and most of it corresponds to what I read in a craptastic book last year). I had already written out my explanation of the "arranged marriage" system in India, but it was very one-sided and I thought that would be unfair to you guys.

So, here's the link. Just read it, it's NOT VERY LONG, okay? [url]http://www.pardesiservices.com/tradition/arrangedmarg.asp[/url] NOW READ THE LINK BEFORE I BASH IN YOUR HEAD!!!!!!!! >O

Toward the end, they talk about unhappy dowry situations. Lisa Ling did a story back in 2004 about one woman about to get married. On the day of the wedding, the husband-to-be was asking her father for more and more dowries (I think he had already given the guy two fridges, four plasma TVs, and a some microwaves), and because the father obviously didn't have that kind of money at the moment, he stared pushing the father around. He began to fight with the father, and she did the "unthinkable" and called the cops on him. More and more women did the same after hearing about her case, but many still did not.


There's really a lot of female inequality that goes on in India, probably from cradle to grave. I mean, have you seen the female infanticide numbers? If I can dig up my report on it last year, I'll give you the statistics. It's crazy.


Switching gears now...

Heh. the funny thing was, when I saw the title of this thread, I thought "OMG!!! WUFEI AND MEIRAN!!!!" which, for you Gundam Wing buffs, is a couple that got married at age 14 (on an anime show, duh).

I think the man does give a dowry to the women's family, and he pays for the entire wedding, too. Of course, for men in China, finding a mate is becoming more and more difficult because of the stupidity of female infanticide. HELLO YOU PEOPLE AND YOUR MALECENTRIC CULTURES ARE CRAZY (*wink wink*).

I've never really heard or read about a lot of arranged marriage in China over the last couple decades. I think it used to be very much forced, but now, it's probably more loose, and the two people don't [i]have[/i] to be married, today. What do I know. I couldn't find any good resources on it. Tell me if you see one.


And by the way, who says that these "arranged" marriages are a bad thing? Yes, the can definitely be that way, but people can also turn out all right. As the divorce rate in the country is over 50% I don't think that by arranging these marriages, they're doing any worse than we are.

Yes, I am fully aware that some women in such a marriage are beaten within an inch of their life, and I seriously think that that needs to [b]stop[/b]. The governments of those countries have to get their heads out of the sand (I've heard a lot about it in India) and step up to the plate. However, this has little bearing on the arranged marriage part and has more to do with laws to protect these women (along with a change in culture), because people in America get married of their own free will and sometimes the woman gets beaten anyway (which also needs to stop, but again, has no bearing on the way they got married in terms of arranged or not).[/color]

[Godelsensei]

[quote name='MistressRoxie][color=#9933ff']And by the way, who says that these "arranged" marriages are a bad thing? Yes, the can definitely be that way, but people can also turn out all right. As the divorce rate in the country is over 50% I don't think that by arranging these marriages, they're doing any worse than we are.[/color][/quote]

I can say arranged marriages are a bad thing and are doing worse things than marriages that end in divorce, since you asked.

If so many people are getting divorced, how does shoving together two people who are as likely to hate each other as anything else help the divorce rate go down?

And spouting non-sequitous facts about divorce has nothing to do with this topic, anyway. The point is arranged marriages, to whatever degree, impede on the rights that any civilized country has set in place for all of its citizens.
Trading children or even virtually selling them is not something that I stand for. I should hope you don't believe in such things, either.

And the idea of "well, sometimes it can turn out okay" just isn't enough to justify the above.

Like I am forever insisting, tradition has no bearing on your right to detract from the quality and freedom of the lives of others. If some one thinks it does, they shouldn't have immigrated here in the first place.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Godelsensei']Sounds arranged to me. Basically, the message I am getting here is that you can't go out and just meet up with whoever you want, on the grounds of you liking them.[/quote]That's because I have self respect and don't let other men touch my body. They have no right to if they are not married to me. I wouldn't go out with a guy because being alone with him is not the best way to know him. He might act one way in your presence and another way somewhere else.

You've seen in the west people's lack of commitment to their marriages, and high rate adultery. I call that shameful and don't want to be a part of it.

Your asking why there isn't absolute freedom. We are simply following our religion. If I believe in my religion then I will abide by it's laws and get my parent's approval with my marriage. Who's gonna stop me if I disobey my parents? No one, but I believe I will be punished by my lord if I do. In Islam you must still continue to obey your parents, even after you reach adulthood. My parents can't make me do anything, but God will punish me If I disobey them.

[quote name='Godelsensei']How can you possibly decide whether you like some one without meeting them in an individual-to-individual situation?[/quote]I can meet him individually and directly speak with him. We don't need to be alone. And that's not allowed either. What has he got to say to me that can't be said in front of my parents? He can't tell me secrets about his life that my parents don't approve of. He can't flirt with me or make any sexual comments unless we're married.

[quote name='Godelsensei']And, as a matter of interest, what happens if a girl decides she wants to foresake her religion and live life as a spinster? Or if she has sex before marriage or decides to marry a black guy?[/quote]If your society is ruled by Islamic Laws, and if you give up Islam (which is very very rare, and in my opinion stupid), you get executed. Sex before marriage is punished by 40 lashes, for either sex. Adultery recieves the death penalty.

And what's wrong with marrying a black guy? Islam doesn't differentiate between races, I can even marry a European person, as long as he is muslim. I'd prefer an Arabic person, someone who I can share my mother tongue with and because it would make it easier for my children to learn Quran, which is in Arabic, but it's not a big deal. There are black Arabs too you know.[/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

What Chabichou has said is the reason I am non-religious. I simply am sick of things being forced upon me. I will marry whomever the hell I want, and no one will stop me from marrying her. I don't care if she's christian. Or muslim. She could be a frickin satanist for all I care. I will eat whatever the hell I want, whenever I want. I am not going to let a book rule my life.

On arranged marrieges, if someone tried to force me to marry someone, I would tell them to go screw themselves. Even if they were my parents, I would never marry someone if I didn't know them on a strong, personal, [B]PRIVATE[/B] basis. If you don't know how they are when the two of you are alone they could just put on an act for you and your parents, and be abusive and dangerous with you. Why would you take that kind of risk?

This was [B]NOT[/B] aimed at or intended to offend [b]ANYONE[/b]. These are my beliefs.

[KuaiEienGunjin]

[size=2]When I was deployed to Iraq with the 101st I had a frend I did gaurd with that was in an aranged marrage. He didnt like it at all. He was always complaining about it.[/size]

[font=Verdana][size=2]Personaly I'm against it. It kind of defys the point of getting married dosent it?[/size][/font]
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[Juke Box Hero]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]That's because I have self respect and don't let other men touch my body. They have no right to if they are not married to me. I wouldn't go out with a guy because being alone with him is not the best way to know him. He might act one way in your presence and another way somewhere else.

You've seen in the west people's lack of commitment to their marriages, and high rate adultery. I call that shameful and don't want to be a part of it.

Your asking why there isn't absolute freedom. We are simply following our religion. If I believe in my religion then I will abide by it's laws and get my parent's approval with my marriage. Who's gonna stop me if I disobey my parents? No one, but I believe I will be punished by my lord if I do. In Islam you must still continue to obey your parents, even after you reach adulthood. My parents can't make me do anything, but God will punish me If I disobey them.

I can meet him individually and directly speak with him. We don't need to be alone. And that's not allowed either. What has he got to say to me that can't be said in front of my parents? He can't tell me secrets about his life that my parents don't approve of. He can't flirt with me or make any sexual comments unless we're married.

If your society is ruled by Islamic Laws, and if you give up Islam (which is very very rare, and in my opinion stupid), you get executed. Sex before marriage is punished by 40 lashes, for either sex. Adultery recieves the death penalty.

And what's wrong with marrying a black guy? Islam doesn't differentiate between races, I can even marry a European person, as long as he is muslim. I'd prefer an Arabic person, someone who I can share my mother tongue with and because it would make it easier for my children to learn Quran, which is in Arabic, but it's not a big deal. There are black Arabs too you know.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Chabichou is regurgitating years of mental indoctrination. I have seen these same phrases (I have slef respect, I don't let men touch my body etc.) on websites and in literature for Islamic purposes. Although I realize not everyone wants to think likte THE GREAT SATAN, we do have some improved things over yours Chabi.

How is it self respecting to let a man you do not know intimately (intellectually... what is with you people obsession with sex) ride you like a triple crown horse?

Are conversations in front of your parents going to get you to know him?

And 40 lashes! Barbarous! Geez... Get out of the dark ages sweetheart...

I do understand your pressure to marry an Arab though, because my one grandfather abosolutely took a canniption fit when I came home with an Asian girlfriend. He was in 'Nam though, so its understnadable.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]I think I've mentioned several times that no one is forcing me to marry anyone against my will. That is forbidden in Islam, and makes the marriage invalid. I get to choose my husband in the end. All I'm saying is that my parents have to agree with my choice. I'm Muslim right? So that's what I believe.

[quote name='Raid3r']How is it self respecting to let a man you do not know intimately (intellectually... what is with you people obsession with sex) ride you like a triple crown horse?[/quote]What's our obsession with sex? What's our obsession with sex? I'd say ask that question about western society first! Geez!

We don't like illegitimate sex because it leads to illegitimate children. Many men who have sex out of wedlock and make their girlfriends pregnant simply leave them and provide no support for the children.

You don't have a right to have children out of wedlock. Why? You take away the children's rights.

Anyway, there are many ways to get to know a man intellectually on a personal level, before your parents even know about him. You might have had discussions with him before, worked with him for various business reasons. The guy might directly ask you to marry him, but you still need your parent's permission, and he will have to meet with them and everything.

[quote name='Raid3r']Are conversations in front of your parents going to get you to know him?[/quote]Why does everything have to be so secretive and private? It's not like they have their ears perked up to max, they're just their to prevent anything from going to far. Really, what do I need to ask him that's so personal?

"So, do you like to be on top or bottom?"
"So, how big is your dick?"

If he's a drug addict, or has a sexually transmitted disease, or if he's a murderer, my parents need to know this.

[quote name='Morpheus']If you don't know how they are when the two of you are alone they could just put on an act for you and your parents, and be abusive and dangerous with you. Why would you take that kind of risk?[/quote]That's why you ask his family and people around the community who know him on a personal level.

You can't blame Islamic marriage if the man becomes abusive after marriage. That happens in western marriages too. Even if you knew the man intimately, and you've even shared a bed, they might still be abusive afterwards. You never know. Heck, I've watched America's most wanted many times, and alot of the convicts were people who've murdered their spouses, though they apperently "loved" eachother when the decided to get married. Some men even break their marriage vows, and when their wife decides to leave them, they kill her! Please provide a sensible explanation for your so called "better way to get to know someone".

You're making this assumption that an Islamic marriage prevents you from getting to know the guy properly. It doesn't. I don't need to let him touch my body to know me on a personal level. He can't judge me by my "sexiness". If either person doesn't fullfill the sexual needs of the other during marriage, you can still seek divorce.

[quote name='Morpheus']What Chabichou has said is the reason I am non-religious. I simply am sick of things being forced upon me. I will marry whomever the hell I want, and no one will stop me from marrying her. I don't care if she's christian. Or muslim. She could be a frickin satanist for all I care. I will eat whatever the hell I want, whenever I want. I am not going to let a book rule my life. [/quote] Morpheus, if you don't want religion telling you how to live your life, that's fine. No body is forcing you. God stated (in Islam), that there is no compulsion in religion. Humans are the only creatures that God created that have free will. God has given us a set of rules on how to live our life, but we have the free will to obey or disobey. You have the free will to believe or disbelieve. Those who obey will enter paradise. And those who don't will enter hell. Those who believe in their religion and accept it must face consequences for their actions in this life if those actions have a worldly punishment, like the death penalty for murder, rape and adultery.

God asked women to cover themsleves from the eyes of men. We have the choice to obey or disobey this command. No one can force me to cover myself, but I chose to obey my lord's command.

God asked people to pray five times a day. The prayers must be offered in their correct time. We can choose to obey or disobey this command.

We believe God created Humans for the sole purpose of worshiping him. Worship comes in many forms, like praising God, remembering him, and obeying his commands. We believe he sent us a message, his own words, which have been recorded without alterations onto books. We can choose to obey or disobey this message. Obeying this message will guide us to the right path, and hopefully to paradise.

We also believe God has our best intrests in mind when these rules were made. He has permitted everything that is good for us, or neutral, and forbidden everything that is bad.

So go ahead, choose to live your life how you like. You can choose to read the message or not. You can choose to believe in it or not, and you can choose to obey it or not. You can choose to believe in God or not. Make your choice, and we will see in the end who will win, and who will lose.

P.S: sorry to get off topic.[/COLOR]

[James]

[color=#334366]Don't you think you've missed the point if you are talking about who is winning and losing? That sounds very childish, frankly.

Anyway, yeah, let's keep this thread on topic, please. I don't want to have to open a can of whoop-*** in here.

To return to the point specifically, I'm obviously against arranged marriages (I do, afterall, believe in personal responsibility and individual's choice).

The funny thing is, nobody should be too surprised about arranged marriages. We often hear that marriage's "traditional" meaning is centered in religion. This is untrue. As a matter of fact, marriage (before religion came in and grabbed it), was [i]originally[/i] a financial/contractual arrangement between two families. In other words, it was primarily about selling a daughter to another family in order to unite the two and their assets. So [i]that[/i] is the "traditional/original" meaning of marriage.

Obviously, arranged marriages came to the forefront when marriage finally became intertwined with religion - but it did take quite a while for that to happen. Marriage was around as a non-religious practice long before that time.

So, you obviously have a situation where arranged marriage is considered normal and important in some cultures and geographic locations.

In western culture, we've seen really rapid change, not just with marriage, but with many other aspects of society. Marriage itself has changed for many reasons, but primarily, I would say that it's changed due to women's liberation. When women began to gain more control over their own lives (legally and otherwise), marriage became a different affair. It was no longer as one-sided and it really did become a question of "marrying who you love" rather than "marrying due to family expectation or financial support". Obviously if women are more independent individuals, they simply don't require the financial support of a man -- or at least, there's much less of a requirement in general.

We often hear about divoce rates rising and how that's hurting families and so on. But honestly, I think that totally misses the point. I think that increased divorce rates are mostly just a sign that the status quo (ie: staying in an unhappy marriage because it suits people other than the couple themselves) is dying, which is generally a good thing. It means that women in particular are more willing to take control and to make key decisions about their future.

Of course, I'm not trying to suggest that divorce is good; it's always a messy and ugly business. But I tend to feel that we now live in an age where marriage isn't a matter of obligation, so much as a question of improving your life and surrounding yourself with a family that you love. Of course there was always an element of that to it, but I think now it's much more pronounced. And hopefully this also means that women are less likely to stay in abusive relationships or whatever -- they are more independent and require less support from their husbands, then that in turn gives them more power to escape abusive home environments.

I would be surprised to hear about arranged marriages in western countries, but obviously these marriages to exist in various places in the world -- generally, places where women's rights are not nearly as advanced.[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='James][color=#334366']Don't you think you've missed the point if you are talking about who is winning and losing? That sounds very childish, frankly.[/color][/quote]Hey, I'm entitled to my beliefs, I'm not being childish. And what is the point I'm missing?

Anyway, I think all of us agree here that no one should be forced into a marriage. Daughters are not to be "sold" to families who you want to have business relationships with. Marriage should be about the union of two people who want to start a loving relationship together, and to raise a family together (that is if they do want kids).

Instead I think the question should be raised about wether your family has a say in the spouse you choose.

Everybody says "hey it's my life, I can do whatever I want with it". They're asking for complete freedom and choice. But really, can you? And should you? Why are drugs illegal? Why is prostitution illegal? Even if they don't affect others around you, They are harmful to you, that's why. The person whom you marry can greatly affect your life, and the lives of others, like your children. That's why your parents should have a say in the matter. The decision needs to be collective. Your parents are usually looking out for your best interests. If they are not, you can disobey them if they force you to do something against your will like marrying somebody.

If they disapprove a good, decent person, who shares the same moral values as you, for no good reason, then in Islam, you can seek the help of an Islamic judge. They might reject him if it's a fincanial issue, but it depends. You need only expect that the man be able to support his wife and children, if he can't then he is not ready for marriage. So If a girl really likes the guy, but he's too poor, maybe you can wait a bit until the situation is better.

It is important to realize what your parents have done for you. Your mother carried you for nine months in her belly, suffered the pains of childbirth, nurtured and fed you. You cannot even make up for the pain of a single contraction your mother went through. Do you not feel morally abligated to obey your mother, (and father of course), even after you become and adult? If you have kids, they are morally obligated to obey you.[/COLOR]

[James]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Hey, I'm entitled to my beliefs, I'm not being childish. And what is the point I'm missing?[/color][/quote]

[color=#334366]Yes, you're entitled to your beliefs. But religion is a deep conviction, not a contest.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][color=#004a6f']Anyway, I think all of us agree here that no one should be forced into a marriage. Daughters are not to be "sold" to families who you want to have business relationships with. Marriage should be about the union of two people who want to start a loving relationship together, and to raise a family together (that is if they do want kids).[/quote][/color]

[color=#334366]Absolutely, I can agree with that much.[/color]
[quote=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
Everybody says "hey it's my life, I can do whatever I want with it". They're asking for complete freedom and choice. But really, can you? And should you? Why are drugs illegal? Why is prostitution illegal? Even if they don't affect others around you, They are harmful to you, that's why. The person whom you marry can greatly affect your life, and the lives of others, like your children. That's why your parents should have a say in the matter. The decision needs to be collective. Your parents are usually looking out for your best interests. If they are not, you can disobey them if they force you to do something against your will like marrying somebody.[/quote][/color]

[color=#334366]Firstly, I wouldn't want to start comparing marriage to drugs or prostitution. I know you aren't drawing that direct link and I see what you're saying, but I disagree.

We are all responsible for our own choices. If you would like your parents to have a say in who you marry, then I think that's fine. But for me...no. lol

Basically, I will make a choice because that choice primarily impacts my life. If my spouse was actually hurting a member of my family or something, then obviously I'd have to consider what to do there. But it's my choice. If my parents perceive that the spouse is a bad choice for me (bad influence or whatever), that's just bad luck. They are hopefully mature enough to treat me with the respect that an adult deserves; the respect to make my own choice.

As I said, if someone actually wants their parents involved...more power to them. lol[/color]
[quote=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
If they disapprove a good, decent person, who shares the same moral values as you, for no good reason, then in Islam, you can seek the help of an Islamic judge. They might reject him if it's a fincanial issue, but it depends. You need only expect that the man be able to support his wife and children, if he can't then he is not ready for marriage. So If a girl really likes the guy, but he's too poor, maybe you can wait a bit until the situation is better.[/quote][/color]

[color=#334366]I can't comment on that really, because it doesn't apply to me. If you wanted your marriage choice to be impacted by either your parents or a judge, that's your choice, again. I personally would never submit to such a thing, but that doesn't mean that it isn't appropriate for others - that is, if you choose that situation. It's all about choice. If you choose it, I really don't have a problem.[/color]
[quote=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
It is important to realize what your parents have done for you. Your mother carried you for nine months in her belly, suffered the pains of childbirth, nurtured and fed you. You cannot even make up for the pain of a single contraction your mother went through. Do you not feel morally abligated to obey your mother, (and father of course), even after you become and adult? If you have kids, they are morally obligated to obey you.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#334366]I really, [i]really[/i] disagree with that. So does my mother. She told me that she'd never expect her children to obey her simply because she gave birth to us. lol

So yeah. I'm totally the opposite. My mother and father chose to get pregnant, I had no say in the matter. I am not an object, I'm a human being. They don't own me, I don't own them.

Obviously I'll pay them respect because they are my parents and I love them. But they don't have any claim on my life at all.

I mean, when it comes down to it we would never agree on that because for you it's a matter of religion. If my mother ever said to me "Do this because I went through nine months of pain for you", I'd say that she was being absurd and that being a parent isn't about ownership of one's children.

But yeah, that's just me. Not to say that your views are actually wrong, they're just...there. I don't think there's a wrong or right in this situation, it all comes down to how you've been raised and what your own morals are.[/color]