Religous question(Do not read if you are easily offended by talks about religon)

[Drizzt Do'urden]

Though I know in today's government (Specifically the United States) cuts off our discussion about religon, but I'd like to open this thread to discuss it. Not just if its right to censor religon. But anything about religion, I've had some serious eye opening questions about christianity. So if anyone is easily offended please do not read any further.

First off I'd like to ask about "original sin" a catholic belief that says everyone is born with sin. So therefore if anyone is born somewhere that doesn't know about christianity they're going toi "hell". First I'd have to ask if anyones catholic, can you tell me how god would let this happen, but I'd also like to pose a question too you. I thought about this a few nights ago, could the one we call God, possibly just be different things to different people. Muslim(sorry if I mispellsed it) have the prophet Mohammed(once again I'm not good with spellings) who is supposed to come back. Something similar to Christianities Jesus.

Every religon teaches do good things to everyone, most prominent are Buddhism(SP) Christianity, and even Muslim. (except for Islamic extremists who believe be good to people of the same religon, otherwise bomb the crap out of things/people who believe otherwise). But there are major similarities between all major religons. The most similar thing being the fact that everyone should do "good" things and that person will be awarded by going to a "special" place, or if you do "evil" things then your soul will be damned somewhere. I guess I don't really have a question, but I'd just like this to be open to discussions about religion(s).

[kabapu]

i think that religion is a name the ignorant give to their ignorance.

all of the major religeons are basically the same. they even cross reference each other (most notably isalam and christian)

it is my oppinion that religeous people can believe whatever they want, just so long as they don't shove their beliefs down everyone else's throat.

[Annie]

[color=#404142]Yes, I know. I'm not supposed to be here..but I can't resist.[/color]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']Though I know in today's government (Specifically the United States) cuts off our discussion about religon, but I'd like to open this thread to discuss it.[/quote]

[color=#404142]That is precisely why there are message boards ^-^ The place that I can think of that "government" cuts religious discussion off is at schools (unless it's a Christian/Catholic school). It's understandable, but then, it's absurd to restrict one's beliefs. However, there are some schools--I'm not sure about how wide this is--who have religion clubs. They have to carry out their meetings or activites after school hours, and they can't "shove" their beliefs during school.

So yeah, it's fine to start a topic here. Tis not school.[/color]


[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']First off I'd like to ask about "original sin" a catholic belief that says everyone is born with sin. So therefore if anyone is born somewhere that doesn't know about christianity they're going toi "hell". First I'd have to ask if anyones catholic, can you tell me how god would let this happen...[/quote]

[color=#404142]See now, Tyo. No human being has the right to judge who goes to Heaven or Hell. Catholics, or any religion, will have their outlooks, their laws, their rules, on what makes their beliefs "the" absolute religion. They can point their finger at you and tell you that you will go to Hell for being born in no form/or something other than their form of Christianity. That's what they do. It has nothing to do with God. It's just a "We're right, those other clowns are wrong." Sure, you still can ask why God would allow his children to act that way. And no one can tell you why. No man [speaking in the general human gender; male or female] can say that is God's way of things. No one.[/color]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']I thought about this a few nights ago, could the one we call God, possibly just be different things to different people. Muslim(sorry if I mispellsed it) have the prophet Mohammed(once again I'm not good with spellings) who is supposed to come back. Something similar to Christianities Jesus. [/quote]

[color=#404142]Of course, it's similar to Jesus Christ. Catholic, Buddhism, Muslim, Islamic, Baptist, Mormon, all of religion is based from the same belief. Every religion has a different view and opinion. People started to question the one form of Christianity, and didn't like what was being told to them. So, what happens? Denominations of Christianity start to branch off and take on different forms of beliefs/religion.

"God" is many a different things to everyone [if they choose to believe in him/her/it]. [/color]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']First off I'd like to ask about "original sin" a catholic belief that says everyone is born with sin. So therefore if anyone is born somewhere that doesn't know about christianity they're going toi "hell". First I'd have to ask if anyones catholic, can you tell me how god would let this happen, but I'd also like to pose a question too you. [/quote]
Well, I'm not a Catholic, but I can tell you what they believe. Catholic school does that to you...

Anyway, if a person has never been exposed to Christianity, and had no way of knowing it existed, but they lived a virtuous life, they're going to Heaven. If they lived a good life, but not wonderful, they go to purgatory. If they've been bad, they go to hell.

I believe that the belief you were talking about was revoked a few years, ago, when the Church realized how idiotic the rule was. Not that it actually means anything.

[quote]
I thought about this a few nights ago, could the one we call God, possibly just be different things to different people. Muslim(sorry if I mispellsed it) have the prophet Mohammed(once again I'm not good with spellings) who is supposed to come back. Something similar to Christianities Jesus. [/quote]
Yeah, I believe that all religions are just variations that [ultamitely] worship the same God, only with cultural variations laid down back from ancient times. As long as you're living a virtuous life, I think you're going to heaven. Not all religions believe that God will ever return, or if He/She/It ever came in the first place. I think Muslims believe that God would never incarnate Himself, and never will.

[quote]
Every religon teaches do good things to everyone, most prominent are Buddhism(SP) Christianity, and even Muslim. (except for Islamic extremists who believe be good to people of the same religon, otherwise bomb the crap out of things/people who believe otherwise). But there are major similarities between all major religons. The most similar thing being the fact that everyone should do "good" things and that person will be awarded by going to a "special" place, or if you do "evil" things then your soul will be damned somewhere. I guess I don't really have a question, but I'd just like this to be open to discussions about religion(s).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, not just Islamic extremists want to bomb the crap out of everyone. Ireland is just one of the examples of non-Islamic extremeists wanting to kill each other. Another would be the Crusades.

Yeah, there are major similitarities between [certain] religions, which also strenghtens my view. However, I'm a Christian. Go Jesus!

[Semjaza]

[quote name='Altron']I believe that the belief you were talking about was revoked a few years, ago, when the Church realized how idiotic the rule was. Not that it actually means anything.[/quote]

If you're refering to the concept of Original Sin, then no, that's never been removed. What is supposed to "remedy" it is Baptism, which obviously happens to probably 99% of children of Catholic descent anyway. Original Sin, in some sense, is actually applied to most Christian religions, but I don't know exactly how it is dealt with as I was raised in a Catholic lifestyle for the most part.

[Godelsensei]

All religions are the same.

That is: they're all elitist, discriminatory cliques run by crazy, sexist, homophobic, racist old guys who love to claim that it is only through [paying, worshipping, and waiting on] them that any one might achieve a half decent afterlife.

Unfortunately, people believe them.

[Retribution]

Semjaza, I wasn't talking about Original Sin. I suppose I wasn't very specific. However, I meant the idea that if you hadn't heard the "Good News," even if you were a good person, you went to hell. I think that the Catholics now believe that if you live a good life, but never hear of Christ, you'll still go to heaven.

[Shugo54]

[QUOTE=Godelsensei]All religions are the same.

That is: they're all elitist, discriminatory cliques run by crazy, sexist, homophobic, racist old guys who love to claim that it is only through [paying, worshiping, and waiting on] them that any one might achieve a half decent afterlife.

Unfortunately, people believe them.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Navy][FONT=Book Antiqua]You are absolutely right. I agree with you 100%[/FONT][/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]Keh, I guess I'll jump into the frey.

Ok, I think the idea of original sin is rediculous. I don't understand how these Christian parents can tell their children at the age of five that they are sinful and are going to Hell. Children have no concept of sin or wrong doing they have to be taught right from wrong, and I'll refer to Islamic and Wiccan belief for that. These two religions believe that children are born sinless (Islam) or that children are an excellent example of perfect love and perfect trust (Wicca).

For example, during ritual everyone stands in circle and grownups aren't allowed to leave the circle with out permission (if I'm getting any of this wrong please correct me, I haven't been to a ritual since Yule 03) However, children (and animals) are allowed to come and go as they please since they have perfect love and perfect trust. They haven't been jaded or given any reason (hopefully) to believe that anyone will do anything wrong to them.

The same is true in Islam. I read somewhere (chaibochu (sp?) may correct me if I'm wrong on this) that muslim children are considered sinless until puberty. If a child dies before they reach 12 they are immediately going to heaven.

I also don't agree with the concept of hell, I've even heard from a nun that she doesn't believe that a God who loves everyone coudl be so cruel to send everyone to Hell. My best friend's religion even goes as far to believe that there is no Hell. Instead of going to Hell, on judgement day everyone's good and bad deeds will be weighed all the good people will go to heaven and the bad people will stay in the ground.

I'll share more later, I have a sudden urge to start another thread.[/color]

[bovine_man3]

Altron, Shugo I'm with you two 168%(sorry about the random number but I'm with you almost way to much).........

[CB Shin]

If you read my thread "A distressing situation" in the Otaku Lounge, you would see that religion is also the bane of (some) of my happiness. But, I don't neccesarily disagree with people who are devout or faithful. I believe religion is a guideline for people to live their lives out in a virtuous and moral way. However, there is a line. A very thin line though it may be, it is still there. Zealots and Muslim extremists you see are an example of this. I'm not even exactly sure where that line is drawn, but you get the idea...

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=Drizzt Do'urden]Though I know in today's government (Specifically the United States) cuts off our discussion about religon, but I'd like to open this thread to discuss it. Not just if its right to censor religon. But anything about religion, I've had some serious eye opening questions about christianity. So if anyone is easily offended please do not read any further.

First off I'd like to ask about "original sin" a catholic belief that says everyone is born with sin. So therefore if anyone is born somewhere that doesn't know about christianity they're going toi "hell". First I'd have to ask if anyones catholic, can you tell me how god would let this happen, but I'd also like to pose a question too you. I thought about this a few nights ago, could the one we call God, possibly just be different things to different people. Muslim(sorry if I mispellsed it) have the prophet Mohammed(once again I'm not good with spellings) who is supposed to come back. Something similar to Christianities Jesus.

Every religon teaches do good things to everyone, most prominent are Buddhism(SP) Christianity, and even Muslim. (except for Islamic extremists who believe be good to people of the same religon, otherwise bomb the crap out of things/people who believe otherwise). But there are major similarities between all major religons. The most similar thing being the fact that everyone should do "good" things and that person will be awarded by going to a "special" place, or if you do "evil" things then your soul will be damned somewhere. I guess I don't really have a question, but I'd just like this to be open to discussions about religion(s).[/QUOTE]

Original sin is not just a Catholic belief. Most Christian denominations hold it. I find it amusing that this is the idea that people in modern society have the hardest time swallowing. I don't see how anyone can look at themselves and the world and not think that human beings are sinful creatures. As you point out in your second paragraph, you will not find a religion anywhere in the world that teaches it is o.k. to murder, rob, and rape. You will also find it hard to locate a society where hatred, lust and coveting are acceptable. There seem to be basic moral laws that all human beings seem to hold in common. When they fall away from these, people feel guilt. Why? Would not people be happier if they were not guilty? Why does there seem to be this universal feeling that not only does a moral code exists, but that people should not break it? Relgions teach that this inherant moral code comes from a divine source.

Now, think to yourself. There are most certainly times in your life when you have felt the guilt that comes from violating this deeply ingrained moral code. Maybe you have never actually killed someone, or stolen, or raped, but have you ever had wished harm would come to someone? Have you ever been selfish in any way? Have you ever lusted after someone as an object to be attained instead as of viewing them as a person? Have you ever treated others in a cruel or unfair manner? Then you have violated this deep moral code. Now, you show me someone in this world who has never violated this code once in their lives. Even exemplers of virtue like Mother Theresa and Ghandi have at least commited the inner sins. And don't kid yourself by saying that guilt and shame are entirely constructed by societies. There is no law or cultural norm to prohibit you from gossiping, holding a grudge, or losing your temper with someone (provided they are of a lower social status than you). Yet people know deep down that these things are wrong.

Look at the world around you. Look at the selfishness, the hatred, the violence, and the shallow persuit of material possessions. My question is not why religions teach that humans are seriously messed up beings, but how can one NOT believe in the doctrine of original sin?

All human beings are sinful. Religions offer remedies for this. Ways that people can attempt to atone for their crimes and regain contact with the [I]numinous[/I], the divine presence.

Religions differ in their treatment of this.

a. Some religions teach that one must earn their way to favor with the divine forces by doing good works and working to purge oneself of darkness.

b. Other religions teach that through great personal sacrifice, sometimes offered to gods, may contact with the divine and freedom from one's sinful nature may be obtained.

Hindu/Buddhism and Christianity stand out as religions with views that differ from this.

In Hindu/Buddhism, the material world is the problem as much so as humanity. Salvation from guilt and pain is achieved by transcending the material world through both of the means listed above.

Christianity teaches that a righteous God should by all rights have nothing to do with a sinful humanity that turned its back on Him in favor of rebellion and wickedness, and continues to do so every moment of the day. Yet He chose, in His great love which humans can hardly fathom, to become incarnate as man. To walk among us and to die in our place, as the sacrificial lamb to provide atonement for the sins of all humanity. (see point b above)

In gratitude for this, and in order to bring the world back to the way it was before humans went wrong, Christians (those who believe in Christ's sacrifice and call Him Lord) are called to do good works. (see point a above)

I am a Christian, and I have come to see, the more I study other religions and mythologies, that I believe in Christianity for the same reason C.S. Lewis eventually turned to Christianity from Atheism. Christianity, for me, provieds not the 'one, true' religion, but rather the religion that holds the fullest explanation for and fullfillment of the themes and ideas present in all human religious thought. It is also a religion with a discernable historical event as its centerpoint, wherein God acted within time to achieve the salvation of humanity.

As for the question of what happens to those who do not hear the Good News, I think there is more flexibility than some people think. The only way a sinful humanity can be reconciled to a holy God is through the sacrifice of Christ, but perhaps some people will only have this truth revealed to them after death. But the Bible doesn't talk much about that. The focus is on those who have heard the Gospel. The Bible seems to be much more focused on saying: "Now that you DO know the Good News, will you choose to accept it or reject it?"

I guess I ended up typing a lot longer response than I thought I would, but I hope I managed to answer your questions, or at least make the position of Catholics and the wider Church more clear for you.

James Bierly

[bovine_man3]

CB Shin I saw the thread and unfortunately there is not much to be done........

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Xander Harris]

All human beings are sinful.

[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]Ok, how is a child like oh say a one year old, sinful? Does the one year old know that it's wrong to take a pack of gum from check out when mom or dad isn't looking? Does the one year old know that it's not nice to hit? No.

That's why I dissagree with original sin or that everyone is born with sin.

Sure you begin around say 5 or so to learn right from wrong, but is the child at fault if his parents didn't bother to tell him that stealing is not acceptable? No, it's the parent's shortcomings.

This is also why I don't understand the Catholic or Epscipalion (G.W.'s religion's) obsession with baptizing infants (Catholic) or being born again at the ripe old age of three. I keep getting asked when I'm baptizing my daughter. When she's old enough to decide for herself. But hey, I guess that's why Focus on the Family :mad: can make so much money convincing people like my grandma that you can tell that children are difficult when they're infants. :rolleyes: [/color]

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]Ok, how is a child like oh say a one year old, sinful? Does the one year old know that it's wrong to take a pack of gum from check out when mom or dad isn't looking? Does the one year old know that it's not nice to hit? No.

That's why I dissagree with original sin or that everyone is born with sin.

Sure you begin around say 5 or so to learn right from wrong, but is the child at fault if his parents didn't bother to tell him that stealing is not acceptable? No, it's the parent's shortcomings.

This is also why I don't understand the Catholic or Epscipalion (G.W.'s religion's) obsession with baptizing infants (Catholic) or being born again at the ripe old age of three. I keep getting asked when I'm baptizing my daughter. When she's old enough to decide for herself. But hey, I guess that's why Focus on the Family :mad: can make so much money convincing people like my grandma that you can tell that children are difficult when they're infants. :rolleyes: [/color][/QUOTE]

Well, I differ with you on the idea that young children do not have sinful tendancies. Ever seen two little kids fighting over toys? Ever seen a kid cry because they did not get their own way? I believe that these are symptoms of a deeper problem. Also, if one believes that all humans are born with knowledge of a certain moral code, as I believe most people do, whether they would say so in such terms or not, than it logically follows that at least on some level the children not only sin, but know that they are doing so.

Now, it can maybe be argued that kids who are unborn, or infants, or extremely young, have not developed this moral code properly yet. O.k. For the sake of moving the arguement forward, let's assume this is true. Therefore, these human beings fall into the same category with 'those who have never heard the gospel'. Does God welcome these children into heaven if they die at a very young age without a chance to hear the gospel or (perhaps, although I'm skeptical) even sin? Maybe. [quote name='my previous post[/Quote]But the Bible doesn't talk much about that. The focus is on those who [B]have [/B'] heard the Gospel. The Bible seems to be much more focused on saying: "Now that you DO know the Good News, will you choose to accept it or reject it?"[/quote]

But, even if they are not sinful beings when they are very young, read my origional post to see why Christians believe that everyone else is indeed fallen and sinful.

As to the baptism question, I just realized that you sort of answered it yourself. If parents are responsible for a child's sin, should they not also be able to have responsibility for positive things such as salvation?

But for a more theological answer from someone who is part of a denomination that practices infant baptism (Reformed), I offer the following (warning: theological speak ahead, which may be greek to some of you. I figure Chibi will get what I'm talking about, though, since she used to be Catholic. I'll be happy to elaborate in lay man's terms if someone asks politely, but I don't have time for that now. Also, I am not a pastor or theologian, so my explanation may not be the greatest in the world... Realize also that this is the subject of much debate and theological rhetoric within Christianity itself. I'll try to distill it down as best I can):

In the old testament, the sign of the covenant was circumcision. This was a sign that a household belonged to Yahweh, and that the child was pledged to live in covenant fellowship with Yahweh. In the New Covenant, the sign of the covenant is baptism. Therefore, it is administered to children in the same way circumcision was. Also, when the Paul and Silas are in prison, and God frees them with an earthquake, the jailer turns to Christ and brings his children along with him. Baptism is not salvation within itself, but a sign of trust in the covenant between God and his people. It is also a promise that one will raise the child to know the Gospel, and a trust in the providence of God to bring that child to know Him. Note that this is a view only held by some denominations. Baptists think this is stupid, and that baptism should only be administered to adults who can make the decision themselves. It's still a sign of the covenant, and a symbol that one has died to the old self and been reborn in Christ.

BTW, I think Focus on the Family is often full of crap, and that James Dobson is a bit of a fundamentalist wacko (spongebob is gay, anime is the devil, only I know how to properly raise your kids, etc.). So let's PLEASE not bring them into this ;) ...

James Bierly

[Japan]

[COLOR=Navy]It is not just the extremists in Islam that believe other races and countries should reform or die. It states in the Koran that you are suppose to get rid of non believers of the Islamic faith.

The Christian faith is far more than just "do good things"

Christianity is where you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When you believe that Jesus died on the cross for YOU to wash away YOUR sins, then you become a Christian. That's more than the simple....do good acts and you'll get to Heaven. If you don't believe Jesus died for you to wash away your sins, you'll go to Hell. I am not shoving it down your throats, I'm just telling you what is true.

The reason why we do good works is not because of our own merit, but for God's glory. We are to be an example for everyone on Earth of what living the Christian faith is all about.

To explain the Crusades, or other people who claim to be Christians, but act like theives and whatnot. The Catholic church of that time had the people fight in it to have savation. So when they died, their souls would go straight to Heaven and not have to go through purgatory. The crusades were probably a Christian version of Jihaad. Another possibility was that they were not true Christians. But, I have no right to judge. Only God can judge when their time comes.

Also, about the orginal sin concept. Catholics aren't the only ones that believe that. In fact, all the sects of Christianity believe that. We are all sinful by nature. When a woman gives birth to a baby, she passes the weight of of sin to her child. Does that make sense?

Now with Baptism...

I believe that you should not baptize your babies. I believe that you should wait till they are older and make the decision themself.[/COLOR]

[wrist cutter]

All atheists/agnostic/heathens are arrogant, ***-backwards, self-serving bastards who are slowly tearing apart our society.

I assume expressing these thoughts on this board is OK because it was OK for people to express their thoughts on those who do have a religion.

[TheShinje]

[size=1][color=DimGray][QUOTE=Godelsensei]All religions are the same.

That is: they're all elitist, discriminatory cliques run by crazy, sexist, homophobic, racist old guys who love to claim that it is only through [paying, worshiping, and waiting on] them that any one might achieve a half decent afterlife.

Unfortunately, people believe them.[/QUOTE]
That is the single most ignorant, stupid and baseless comment I've ever seen!

Let me clarify by using my church as an example, it is run by a God-fearing pastor who claims that it is only though Jesus and his sacrifice that people are saved. Stark contrast to your example,and the thithe (money)? [b]Completely optional![/b]

This is an example of many churches in my area, that engage in regular activities and hold youth congregations (run by youth, not soem 80+ pervert) full of vibrancy and free worship before our God.

That comment was hurtful, just because it's infactual and wrong. Want to deny God? that's your right, but please, spare the "pervert priest, all-about-the-money" rheotric.

Unofrtunately, most people believe[b] you[/b].




[b]My opinion on original sin:[/b]

I do not believe in it, and never have. It is one of the reasons (as well as Marian worship) that I left the Catholic Church.

Yes, people do sin and fall short of the glory of God, but this does not mean that a child is born with sin, God isn't going to let a baby who died of cot deaht go to hell, and those who have not heard the gospel will get their chance at the white-throne resurrection. God is a fair and just God, he will not roast soemone because a missionary never reached them.

The second resurrection is recorded in Revelation, it's a part of the salvation plan that is omitted by most mainstream denominations.
[/color][/size]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']Muslim(sorry if I mispellsed it) have the prophet Mohammed(once again I'm not good with spellings) who is supposed to come back. Something similar to Christianities Jesus.[/quote]Sorry, I really felt I needed to correct this statement. Muslims believe in one God only. We believe that both Jesus and Muhammad were prophets that were sent by God to deliver his message. Muhammad is NOT like the cristian Jesus. Mohamad is human and is not to be worshipped. We simply love and respect him, and we take his actions as examples of the proper way to live our lives. We don't believe that Muhammad will return. We believe Jesus will return, and that he is the Messiah. But as we believe, Jesus is not God, or even his son. He is also human, and by God's will only he was able to preform miracles.

Meanwhile, the rest of you can leave the "Islamic Extremeists" out of this. They are people who make up rules for themselves and don't follow Islam properly.

And Japan86, the Koran (Quran) doesn't state that we should kill non-Muslims, so you can kindly withdraw this false statement. If it states that anywhere, it is only talking about people who oppress muslims, and it says to leave them be if they accept Islam.

You people think you know so much and blurt out a bunch of crap you hear on racist sites. Why don't you actually pick up a translation of the Quran and see for yourself the real message it holds?

[QUOTE=Godelsensei]All religions are the same.

That is: they're all elitist, discriminatory cliques run by crazy, sexist, homophobic, racist old guys who love to claim that it is only through [paying, worshiping, and waiting on] them that any one might achieve a half decent afterlife.[/QUOTE]What "old guys"? I don't pray to anyone but my lord. Apperently because Muslim women are supposed to cover themeselves, that makes our religion sexist? And why don't you just leave people alone about homosexuality okay? We believe in our religion and God says he despise homosexuality, and that it is a bad lifestyle, you know what I do? I listen to my lord! So deal with it![/COLOR]

[Drizzt Do'urden]

[QUOTE] [I]Originally posted by Japan_86[/I]
I believe that you should not baptize your babies. I believe that you should wait till they are older and make the decision themself.[/QUOTE]

I can totally agree with that to an extent Japan_86. It once again gets back to the idea of "original sin" If your child was born and you were taught if he/she wasn't babtized he/she was going to hell. How can you honestly say you wouldn't rush to get your own child baptized, and save him/her from "the fires of hell"

Addressing everyone who said people who belive in their "religon" are ignorant, I'd like to pose another question to you. If you found something, that gave you the [I]hope[/I] that you were going to a better place a life after death. Whether its reincarnation, Heaven, being reunited with the earth/nature, or just any better place.

I myself am a confirmed presbyterian...well was. I sort've feel out until I went into Basic Training, it was there that I found my religion again, but once again afterwards in Technical training I once again had a falling out. But being in today's military you understand that you could be called up anytime to go into a combat situation. And just the feeling that since I've lead a good life, I have the chance to go to heaven gives me that [I]hope[/I] . So before you call people ignorant, just think about it. Do you really [B]want[/B] to believe that when you die you just rot in the ground? Or would you feel better knowing that you had the chance to go somewhere that you'll live in forever peace?

Also has anybody ever been to the Vadican(SP) before? I'm really interested in going there one day, I just needed some input as to it being something worth seeing.

[QUOTE] [I]Originally posted by [B]Chabichou[/B][/I] Sorry, I really felt I needed to correct this statement. Muslims believe in one God only. We believe that both Jesus and Muhammad were prophets that were sent by God to deliver his message. Muhammad is NOT like the cristian Jesus. Mohamad is human and is not to be worshipped. We simply love and respect him, and we take his actions as examples of the proper way to live our lives. We don't believe that Muhammad will return. We believe Jesus will return, and that he is the Messiah. But as we believe, Jesus is not God, or even his son. He is also human, and by God's will only he was able to preform miracles.[/QUOTE]

Don't at all be sorry, I'm actually glad you corrected me. I did not belive that Muslims belive in Jesus(in any form) as well. If your next statement about being racist and just blurting out whatever was directed towards me I did not mean any offense by it. It was just my misunderstanding. So I would like to apologize for any misunderstanding.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Drizzt Do'urden']Don't at all be sorry, I'm actually glad you corrected me. I did not belive that Muslims belive in Jesus(in any form) as well. If your next statement about being racist and just blurting out whatever was directed towards me I did not mean any offense by it. It was just my misunderstanding. So I would like to apologize for any misunderstanding.[/quote]No don't worry, it was not directed at you. You understood the fact that you might have been mistaken, and I respect that. There are others though, that made false statements as though they are facts and they think they're all smart or something. That really pisses me off.[/COLOR]

[Annie]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
You people think you know so much and blurt out a bunch of crap you hear on racist sites.[/color][/quote]

[quote=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
And why don't you just leave people alone about homosexuality okay? We believe in our religion and God says he despise homosexuality, and that it is a bad lifestyle, you know what I do? I listen to my lord! So deal with it![/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[quote=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
There are others though, that made false statements as though they are facts and they think they're all smart or something. That really pisses me off.[/color][/quote]

[color=#404142]Wow. Someone sounds like a child.

So what if people don't know [b]everything[/b] about religion. That's why these threads are here. So people can come together and discuss, and learn. Yes, I'll say that I have not been right with everything I've said; I've never stated that I was right, everyone else was wrong. And yes, I can't speak for anyone else.

I severely disagree with "God's" dislike to homosexuality. [b][Now, be noted that I will talking in a Christian/religious standpoint. For all of you who are agnostic or atheist, just listen, don't argue.][/b] God created every man equal, yes? Yes, for that is what the good book says. He loves his children; black, white, yellow, purple, whatever. He created man and he loves man. He forgives his children, even the mugs and murderers (that's what I was taught when I was religious). Man is equal. All of the racist discussion, that's man's discrimination; not God's. God didn't start all of the riots between blacks and whites in the past two-hundred years.

As for homosexuality in that, why would God shun his children for loving another human being, whether they be man or woman? Why would it matter? Do not give me something I already know. "Because it's wrong in God's eyes." Oh yeah? But why? Who ever said God specifically said that homosexuality was wrong?[/psuedo religious speech]

Only man have said such rubbish. I don't believe God (of any religion) would totally blow off his creation, his love, because they find love in the same gender. Humans just detest homosexuality because they don't understand it. [/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Japan_86][COLOR=Navy']It is not just the extremists in Islam that believe other races and countries should reform or die. It states in the Koran that you are suppose to get rid of non believers of the Islamic faith.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=darkviolet] *cough* BS *cough*

It [i]is[/i] only the extremists. You don't see the entire muslim population of say...Rochester, MN taking flying lessons so they can crash into the Mall of America because of all the Catholics, Baptists and Satanists that keep popping up do you? No. That's why extremism is bad, it gives the perfectly sane followers of the religion a bad name.

The Quaran states that you may seek vengence, but you must be moderate in seeking vengence because you will get repercussions. It also warns against the killing of innocents because well, that's a one way ticket to hell. And yes, they are encoraged to rid invaders from their lands, but they must seek out peacefull means of doing so prior to going to war.

I honestly don't know where you're getting your information from, but I'd burn that book immediately.

I also dissagree about God hating homosexuals, I think God hates Jerry Fowell and the guy at Focus on the Family, but I doubt He hates homosexuals. After all in Christianity weren't we all created in His immage? I think that includes homosexuals[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Annalisse][color=#404142]So what if people don't know [b]everything[/b'] about religion. That's why these threads are here. So people can come together and discuss, and learn. Yes, I'll say that I have not been right with everything I've said; I've never stated that I was right, everyone else was wrong. And yes, I can't speak for anyone else. [/color][/quote]There's a difference between not knowing and asking questions, and pretending you know something and telling lies. Yes we are all here to learn, but people making false statments won't help us to.

As for homosexuality (why is everyone so obsessed with it these days?), everyone is entitled to their beliefs about it. People who dislike it have good reasons for it, so you can't call it discrimination:

[I]"There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life." [/I]

[QUOTE]As for homosexuality in that, why would God shun his children for loving another human being, whether they be man or woman?[/QUOTE]Okay, love is different than lust. A man can love his male friends, he can love his father, and his brothers.

God has stated in the books than homosexuality is forbidden:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

Of course you can choose to believe these are scriptures from God or not.

However, I never said God hates homosexuals, he hates homosexual acts. If you commit a sin, it doesn't mean God will hate you. He hates the action, and you should repent and not do it again. Likewise, if you have homosexual urges but you don't act on them, God won't hate you. And if you do commit homosexual acts, you still have a chance to repent, and not do them again.

Sigh... here we go again...[/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f] There's a difference between not knowing and asking questions, and pretending you know something and telling lies. Yes we are all here to learn, but people making false statments won't help us to.

As for homosexuality (why is everyone so obsessed with it these days?), everyone is entitled to their beliefs about it. People who dislike it have good reasons for it, so you can't call it discrimination:

[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet] Ok, everyone is entitled to their opinions, even if they seem wrong to other people. No one shoudl attack someoen for their opinions or their beliefs.

I believe that God loves everyone. There are more passages about love in everyone's holy books than there are about hate. That's what we should concentrate on. Love not hate. Religion should be used as a bridge, not a wepon. We shouldn't be assuming that we know everything that God, or Goddess, or the Divine know.

That said I'd like to know what basis people really have against homosexuality. I mean I can't stand when someone has to express their gayness and force people to accept it or they're homophobic and wrong. Why do you dislike it? Does it harm you personally?


And believe it or not, you can call it discrimination. [/color]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f] [I]"There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life." [/I]

Okay, love is different than lust. A man can love his male friends, he can love his father, and his brothers.... [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]
If you're trying to make a connection between gays and AIDS as your fatal disease well, look somewhere else. That point of veiw went out with the Berlin Wall. There is no proof that AIDS is a homosexual disease. It affects everyone Gay Straight, Bi, male, female, balck, white, Asian Arabic, Christian and Muslim.

Now that that's been done, I can't see how else it would affect a person's health to be homosexual unless they have to keep it a secret and they begin to get ulcers from stress.

Homosexuality isn't harmful to family values. A homosexual person isn't anymore dangerous than a heterosexual person. Peopel get a life.

And who died and made religion the sole descison on what love is?

Ok, this is a religion thread. We shouldn't keep derailing it by discussing homosexuality. That thread has to wait a few more months maybe May or June will see the next Gay thread. But if anyone wants a debate....

I like religion in it's non judgemental, loving non extremist form. The way the people who created it be it the Son of God, a Prophet or Druids. Religion wasn't created to demean, judge, divide or say I'm right and you're wrong. Religion is supposed to give people strength to deal with daily crap. Not make people feel guilty or threatened. If you think that's what religion is, I'm sorry you had such an experiance but allow others to believe as they wish

Ok, now my fingers are tired, I'm gonna go work on the rules for my RPG[/color]