Religous question(Do not read if you are easily offended by talks about religon)

[JJ]

[Color=DarkBlue][Size=1]Some people have quoted the Quron, and I'd like to point out that all the religous books have been written by humans.[/size][/color]

[Brasil]

I'd like to step in here and just say a few things before this thread gets shot down.

One, I don't think the concept of Original Sin exactly applies anywhere. I don't view children arguing over a toy as pertaining at all to the trials and tribulations in the Garden of Eden. I just see them being children, and children can be selfish as hell sometimes. It's just a fact derived from pure observation and using some good old fashioned common sense.

Religion has nothing to do with bullies pushing you down on the playground because they want to play on the swings. If the bully starts preaching hellfire and damnation, then, yeah, there's religion in there. But in 98% of all playground/schoolyard "fights" like that, I seriously, seriously doubt that religion plays any part at all, so I think it's silly to "support" the concept of Original Sin (or to prove its existence) by pointing to something that isn't religiously based at all.

Humans can be selfish, yes. I'm not debating that. But humans aren't selfish because of Adam, the Garden of Eden, or because of the Bible. Humans are selfish because we're hedonists sometimes. We're concerned with pleasing ourselves. I don't view that as having any religious foundation at all. It's just how we work. We see something we want, we take it. Simple as that. It's pretty much just basic human psychology.

I view Original Sin as more or less an entertainment, really. It's so hyperbolic and so exaggerated, and its application is often so skewed that I know I can't really treat it as having any real, substantial and serious meaning. This is because of both sides of the "issue," as well...both the "Original Sin is true because humanity is unclean" and the "Original Sin is atrocious because little babies are going to burn." Neither "argument" is all that valid when you examine them.

Two, sin in general. From what I've seen (both in this thread, in other threads, and in general), many people are totally missing the point of why there are sacred texts. It's not to issue laws. It's not to enforce massive amounts of rules on a people. It's not to limit freedoms or anything like that.

The purpose of sacred texts is merely to act as a guide, a blueprint, a map of directions. I think people are putting too much emphasis on sacred texts these days, quite honestly. They're not Gospel--ironic, isn't it?

Three, the whole God-thing. I'm not going to go into my Atheism, so you can all breathe. But I would like to mention one thing: the God of Philosophers. The GoP, as opposed to the God of Faith, is a singular entity that encompasses the entire universe. The GoP is a combination, in a sense, of all the common traits of the God of Faith. And really, if I were to believe in God, the GoP would be my choice, because the way I see it...every religious denomination (Christianity, Judaism, Islam being the primary offenders here) aren't "official" at all, nor are their respective sacred texts "official." Just bear with me here.

What is the cause of religious conflict? Why is there Jihad in the world? Why were there some seven Crusades (and a children's Crusade)?

It's because every religion in the world today is an Expanded Universe religion. Think Star Wars. You have the Original Trilogy, the TRUE Star Wars, then you have various side-stories (novels, games, boardgames, etc). The side-stories are the Expanded Universe. They're the material that branched off of the real Star Wars.

When you consider that each God of Faith is pretty similar to the other Gods of Faith, you start to ask yourself which religion is the "true" religion? Is it Christianity? Judaism? Islam? Buddhism? No.

They're all Expanded Universe. None of them is the true God. The true God, it seems, is the God of Philosophers, the common entity of all religions...the God-ness of religion...the concept of God, not Allah, not Yahweh, not the Christian God/Jesus.

If this is true, then it does make sense why Islam/Christianity/Judaism conflict with each other on various points, yet "coincide" on others. It's because they're the side-stories to the real story at hand: God-ness.

Don't take this post the wrong way; I'm not preaching here. I'm just raising a question that maybe every religion people have been raised on is blatantly incorrect.

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=Drizzt Do'urden]

Also has anybody ever been to the Vadican(SP) before? I'm really interested in going there one day, I just needed some input as to it being something worth seeing.

[/QUOTE]
It's vatican, and I personally would love to go there some day, if only for the architecture...

[Annie]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
As for homosexuality (why is everyone so obsessed with it these days?), everyone is entitled to their beliefs about it. People who dislike it have good reasons for it, so you can't call it discrimination:

[I]"There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life." [/I][/color][/quote]

[color=#404142]I can very well call it a discrimination. Homosexuals get discriminated every single day. Some jobs/career fields won't accept them.

"Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood, and a woman of her womanhood.." Bulls**t. Absolute bulls**t. Men can express their manhood no matter their sexual preference. Not every gay man is feminine. Even if so, they still have manhood to defend the ones they love.

Homosexuality does not destroy a household on its own. And is definitely not the only way. Drugs, greed, dissimilarities, disagreements--these also break up families.

As for harmful or fatal diseases, that is caused because some idiot can't use a damned condom. Safe sex, no matter the gender, is placed upon the couple. They choose not to use protection, that's their fault. Not because they are homosexual. I can't believe you quoted that. Wherever you dug that up, it's totally stereotypical and highly offensive.[/color]


[quote=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
Okay, love is different than lust. A man can love his male friends, he can love his father, and his brothers.[/color][/quote]

[color=#404142]I've not mentioned the word "lust". I am not saying a man can't lust. I'm talking about a man loving another man, just as one man would love a woman. The love where you can spend the rest of your life with one person, where lust isn't the issue, where you'd rather live your life without a care in the world about sex.[/color]

[quote=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]
However, I never said God hates homosexuals, he hates homosexual acts. If you commit a sin, it doesn't mean God will hate you. He hates the action, and you should repent and not do it again. Likewise, if you have homosexual urges but you don't act on them, God won't hate you.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#404142]"..he hates homosexual acts...he hates the action.." God does not hate. From every religion I've been exposed to, it's my understanding that God does not hate. Your "God" may hate, and that's why I'll refuse to believe anything, or respect anything, you say about your God, your religion.

I'm done with you.[/color]

[quote=Drizzt Do'urden]
Addressing everyone who said people who belive in their "religon" are ignorant, I'd like to pose another question to you. If you found something, that gave you the hope that you were going to a better place a life after death. Whether its reincarnation, Heaven, being reunited with the earth/nature, or just any better place.[/quote]

[color=#404142]Um, I didn't understand what you wanted to know.[/color]

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Annalisse][color=#404142]As for homosexuality in that, why would God shun his children for loving another human being, whether they be man or woman? Why would it matter? Do not give me something I already know. "Because it's wrong in God's eyes." Oh yeah? But why? Who ever said God specifically said that homosexuality was wrong?[/psuedo religious speech]
[/color][/QUOTE][size=2]Hmmm, if you are a Christian, you certainly don't seem to know much about the Bible. God once had a little chat with this guy named Moses. In this little chat, God told Moses how you shouldn't have sex with your mom/sister/aunt/niece, etc. He also said you can't commit adultery. Men and women can't have sex with animals. Now, all of this sounds rather reasonable, correct? It just so happens that in the middle of all that, he said that men shouldn't have sex with other men. This used to be as equally disgusting as everything that surrounded it. But, times have changed. I would hope that Christians, at least, would understand this.[/size]

[size=2]If it's any consolation, God doesn't say anything about two women being together, possibly because neither of them has any ability to 'have sex' the way God sees sex.[/size]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn]This [homosexuality'] used to be as equally disgusting as everything that surrounded it. But, times have changed. I would hope that Christians, at least, would understand this.[/quote]
Exactly, Adahn. Times [i]have[/i] changed. So why do we keep hearing the same anti-homosexuality faith-based rhetoric?

[Adahn]

[quote name='Siren]Exactly, Adahn. Times [i]have[/i'] changed. So why do we keep hearing the same anti-homosexuality faith-based rhetoric?[/quote]
[size=2]Alex, I was merely answering a question (and a religious one, at that). I'm just answering a question with the correct answer. I won't stand by and allow uneducated people to spread falsehoods.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]I don't claim to know everything about the Bible, but I do know some things. It's like the case with Chabichou. She is quite obviously the most knowledgeable in the Islam faith, and as such all who think they know something about it have nothing to be ashamed of in deferring to her. Since you told me yourself you only studied the new testament, I'm afraid you must in this case defer to those who know what they're talking about with respect to the old testament.[/size]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']Alex, I was merely answering a question (and a religious one, at that). I'm just answering a question with the correct answer. I won't stand by and allow uneducated people to spread falsehoods.[/quote]
And I was merely asking a question, one that you didn't answer.


[quote]Since you told me yourself you only studied the new testament, I'm afraid you must in this case defer to those who know what they're talking about with respect to the old testament.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and at that time, we were speaking about the NT. Just because I didn't mention studying the OT doesn't mean I didn't study it. You don't exactly have a leg-up on me here, Adahn, because I have studied the entire Bible, both NT and OT. The only reason I didn't mention the OT before was because we were talking about the NT.

[kennet1977]

I consider myself a Christian but just like some people, I have taken on some belief systems which some wouldn't consider "religous" such as the wiccan ways.

Many authors of all genres touch on religon and their views or beliefs from time to time. One book I read that was written by Piers Anthony from the "Incarnations of Immortality". It was the first book that I read, titled: " On a Pale Horse" which dealt with the incarnation of "Death" and what happened to the "soul" after a person passed on. One of his "clients" was an infant who by the "rules" stated in this book, should have automatically gone to heaven on its own but due to the "sins" of the mother, whether she commited the act of her own free will for not, was sent to purgatory until its "soul" could make its way to whichever location it would eventually choose. Another "client" was an atheist and when he passed on his soul just disappeared as if it never existed.
Let me state rignt now that though I don't know what the author's beliefs are, that he is just stating one of the many possibilities that are out there.

Again I will state that I consider myself a Christian and on the homosexuality issue, I can not believe that God (or anyones equivallant thereof) would discriminate against their peronal choice of partners. If a person lives a good life and is a good person overall I can not in good concience believe is automatically condemmed to hell.

Some religons could state that a person who follows the wiccan way is condemmed to hell as well, which would put me in a "walking the fence" sort of thing since I have adopted some of the wiccan beliefs on top of my Christian ones.

[kabapu]

the problem with religeon is that you can't question what they say openly. because then you are deemed a "faschist" or any number of derogatory terms.

they have bullet proof armour of self-righteousness and public oppinion.

[Adahn]

[size=2]You're generalizing, Alex. All I've given is a factual statement, which is to say that in the Bible, God specifically condemns men who have sex with other men. It is not so broad as to be 'anti-homosexual', but rather the condemnation of an [b]act[/b]. Your question was...why did I say this?[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2][Quote=Annalisse][/size]
[color=#404142]Who ever said God specifically said that homosexuality was wrong?[/QUOTE][/color]
[color=#404142][/color]
[size=2]I answered her question as clearly and specifically as I could. God doesn't say [b]homosexuality[/b] is wrong. However, He does say that [b]male-male sex[/b] is wrong. Both of these statements are indisputable and relevant.[/size]

[Xander Harris]

[Quote=Siren]I'd like to step in here and just say a few things before this thread gets shot down.

One, I don't think the concept of Original Sin exactly applies anywhere. I don't view children arguing over a toy as pertaining at all to the trials and tribulations in the Garden of Eden. I just see them being children, and children can be selfish as hell sometimes. It's just a fact derived from pure observation and using some good old fashioned common sense.[/Quote]

Read the second paragraph of my reply to Chibi... I've already agreed to this, for the sake of moving the arguement forward.

[quote name='Siren']Humans can be selfish, yes. I'm not debating that. But humans aren't selfish because of Adam, the Garden of Eden, or because of the Bible. Humans are selfish because we're hedonists sometimes. We're concerned with pleasing ourselves. I don't view that as having any religious foundation at all. It's just how we work. We see something we want, we take it. Simple as that. It's pretty much just basic human psychology. [/quote]

Then you DO agree with the idea of origonal sin. You agree that hedonism is something humans are born with. Unless you somehow think this is a good thing, than you believe there is something wrong with humanity. That's the doctrine of original sin. I think you are objecting simply to the fact that you saw a religious phrase, not to the concept behind the phrase.


[Quote=Siren]Two, sin in general. From what I've seen (both in this thread, in other threads, and in general), many people are totally missing the point of why there are sacred texts. It's not to issue laws. It's not to enforce massive amounts of rules on a people. It's not to limit freedoms or anything like that.

The purpose of sacred texts is merely to act as a guide, a blueprint, a map of directions. I think people are putting too much emphasis on sacred texts these days, quite honestly. They're not Gospel--ironic, isn't it?[/Quote]

But as I already pointed out in my original post, sin is something people are aware of even without a holy text. To the next paragraph, I partially agree with you. Religious texts arise because of two reasons.

a. The search for the numinous. People seem to have this belief that there is something outside of themselves and this world, some kind of deeper spiritual meaning. Religious texts arise to provide an explanation for this and a guide to living in such a way as to achieve contact with this higher spiritual reality.

b. The existance of a deep, ingrained moral code in each human that every human knows they have violated on some level. Whether a religion overtly preaches the doctrine of sin or not, they all have the underlying idea that there is something wrong with the way humans are now, and by following religions X one may break free from the wrongness of present human life.

A bit more on similarities between religions is to be found in my original posts.

[quote name='Siren']Three, the whole God-thing. I'm not going to go into my Atheism, so you can all breathe. But I would like to mention one thing: the God of Philosophers. The GoP, as opposed to the God of Faith, is a singular entity that encompasses the entire universe. The GoP is a combination, in a sense, of all the common traits of the God of Faith. And really, if I were to believe in God, the GoP would be my choice, because the way I see it...every religious denomination (Christianity, Judaism, Islam being the primary offenders here) aren't "official" at all, nor are their respective sacred texts "official." Just bear with me here.[/quote]

I hate to burst your bubble, but as someone who studies philosophy at a Christian college (and yes, we read a lot of secular and classical philosophers, not just Christian ones) I have to say that this statement is ignorent both of religious philosophy and philosophical history. The GoP (and by this, I assume you mean the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, all-etc. being. If not, then you are likely talking about Plato's perfect form of goodness. Either way, it is not a terribly personal being, but all the qualities he/it has are qualities that the GoR has as well. When Christians do philosophy, we tend to use the GoP, in light of the GoC.

[Quote=Siren]
It's because every religion in the world today is an Expanded Universe religion. Think Star Wars. You have the Original Trilogy, the TRUE Star Wars, then you have various side-stories (novels, games, boardgames, etc). The side-stories are the Expanded Universe. They're the material that branched off of the real Star Wars.

When you consider that each God of Faith is pretty similar to the other Gods of Faith, you start to ask yourself which religion is the "true" religion? Is it Christianity? Judaism? Islam? Buddhism? No.

They're all Expanded Universe. None of them is the true God. The true God, it seems, is the God of Philosophers, the common entity of all religions...the God-ness of religion...the concept of God, not Allah, not Yahweh, not the Christian God/Jesus.

If this is true, then it does make sense why Islam/Christianity/Judaism conflict with each other on various points, yet "coincide" on others. It's because they're the side-stories to the real story at hand: God-ness.

Don't take this post the wrong way; I'm not preaching here. I'm just raising a question that maybe every religion people have been raised on is blatantly incorrect.[/Quote]

Actually, I tend to agree with elements of what you said. [quote name='My Original Post']I am a Christian, and I have come to see, the more I study other religions and mythologies, that I believe in Christianity for the same reason C.S. Lewis eventually turned to Christianity from Atheism. Christianity, for me, provieds not the 'one, true' religion, but rather the religion that holds the fullest explanation for and fullfillment of the themes and ideas present in all human religious thought. It is also a religion with a discernable historical event as its centerpoint, wherein God acted within time to achieve the salvation of humanity.[/quote]

What you are saying is not radical or unique, and fits in many ways with established religious thought.

James Bierly

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Adahn]You're generalizing, Alex. All I've given is a factual statement, which is to say that in the Bible, God specifically condemns men who have sex with other men. It is not so broad as to be 'anti-homosexual', but rather the condemnation of an act. Your question was...why did I say this?


I answered her question as clearly and specifically as I could. God doesn't say homosexuality is wrong. However, He does say that male-male sex is wrong. Both of these statements are indisputable and relevant.[/QUOTE]My question that you didn't answer was the following:

[quote name='Siren]Exactly, Adahn. Times [i]have[/i'] changed. So why do we keep hearing the same anti-homosexuality faith-based rhetoric?[/quote]You said that times have changed, implying that the Bible's take on homosexuality is outdated. Then I agreed times have changed, and then my follow-up question was why we keep hearing the same kind of anti-homosexuality faith-based rhetoric, which you still have not answered.

You said it yourself that times have changed since God spoke with Moses. Why isn't the Bible (and people's application of the Bible) changing with the times? Why isn't the message changing and adapting with a new sociological progression? Remember "Adapt or Die."

My question doesn't [i]directly[/i] relate to what Annie said, but it [i]does directly relate[/i] to what you said in your post, so do answer the question (I've repeated it numerous times here).

[quote name='Xander Harris']Then you DO agree with the idea of origonal sin. You agree that hedonism is something humans are born with. Unless you somehow think this is a good thing, than you believe there is something wrong with humanity. That's the doctrine of original sin. I think you are objecting simply to the fact that you saw a religious phrase, not to the concept behind the phrase.[/quote]
And like I've said in my same post there, I don't view any type of human selfishness or hedonism as anything that relates to religion at all, because it's basic human psychology. I don't base it on Garden of Eden, with Adam and Eve plucking the fruit and eating it. I base it on simple observation of people. There is no religious basis at all for human tendencies like that, because time and time again, you can see that behavior no matter what, with or without any consideration of religion.

I was never arguing that humans don't display selfishness. I was arguing that the religious concept of Original Sin (humans are inherently evil and corrupt and need to be saved) is what needs re-examination. Like I said before, children playing on a playground is not indicative of some type of "truth" about Original Sin.

I don't view hedonistic tendencies, selfishness, etc, as something wrong, either. They can be a problem, certainly, but I don't think of mean streaks in human beings as damnation (like Original Sin does). It's just human nature. It's just basic psychology...Freud's Pleasure Principle, I believe it's called. Something needs to be pretty damn horrific for me to treat it like it's going to destroy society, or to treat it like it's the bane of existence.

So we have vice in the world. Big deal. So children are going to fight over a toy. Big deal. Human nature exists independently of Original Sin. If you're saying I take issue with this concept because of a religious indoctrination or religiousness in the name, then, I somewhat do, because people don't need Garden of Eden to see what is just pure, plain and simple human nature. If people need to depend on GoE for that, I'm fine with it, but I really don't think that dependence is necessary.

I don't think we need Original Sin so we can understand the duality of human nature.

Know what I mean?

[quote]But as I already pointed out in my original post, sin is something people are aware of even without a holy text. To the next paragraph, I partially agree with you. Religious texts arise because of two reasons.

a. The search for the numinous. People seem to have this belief that there is something outside of themselves and this world, some kind of deeper spiritual meaning. Religious texts arise to provide an explanation for this and a guide to living in such a way as to achieve contact with this higher spiritual reality.

b. The existance of a deep, ingrained moral code in each human that every human knows they have violated on some level. Whether a religion overtly preaches the doctrine of sin or not, they all have the underlying idea that there is something wrong with the way humans are now, and by following religions X one may break free from the wrongness of present human life.[/quote]Which is why I'm saying that people should be able to view the texts in a more light-hearted, easy manner, because they place a bit too much emphasis on something that serves as a guide and nothing more, not a Fascist doctrine.

[quote]I hate to burst your bubble, but as someone who studies philosophy at a Christian college (and yes, we read a lot of secular and classical philosophers, not just Christian ones) I have to say that this statement is ignorent both of religious philosophy and philosophical history. The GoP (and by this, I assume you mean the all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, all-etc. being. If not, then you are likely talking about Plato's perfect form of goodness. Either way, it is not a terribly personal being, but all the qualities he/it has are qualities that the GoR has as well. When Christians do philosophy, we tend to use the GoP, in light of the GoC.[/quote]James, remember that the God of Faith is a multiple entity, in that each faith has its own God, but all of those Gods have similar qualities. The God of Philosophers incorporates those similarities into one umbrella Supreme Being. The Christian God isn't exactly the same as Allah, nor is Allah exactly the same as Yahweh, but at the same time, in the respective religious texts, you do find common elements throughout. I actually don't see how you're "bursting my bubble" here or disagreeing with me at all, because you said "all the qualities he/it has are qualities that the GoR [and by "GoR" I'm assuming you mean God of Religion] has as well."

I said the exact same thing:

[quote]The GoP is a combination, in a sense, of all the common traits of the God of Faith.[/quote][quote]Actually, I tend to agree with elements of what you said.

What you are saying is not radical or unique, and fits in many ways with established religious thought.[/quote]It's the same thing I was saying above, lol. The various religions across the globe are side-stories (still possessing similarities to each other) and Expanded Universe material to the real canon: the concept of God-ness, the idea of the Supreme Being, which is exactly what the God of Philosophers is: God-ness...the overarching theme/idea of the Supreme Being, an idea that combines the common qualities of the various Gods of Religion.

[Adahn]

I apologize, Alex, I misunderstood you. In saying that 'times have changed', I meant that what is socially unacceptable has changed. I believe that every person knows what is right and wrong, and this knowledge is what we know as the human conscience. Some people like doing what is wrong, and this is the case today. People get a sick pleasure out of killing, stealing, and raping people. They know it's wrong, and they revel in it. There are worse people who revel in spreading lies and corrupting morality. They aren't revolutionaries. There is no evolution. They are just bad people who enjoy doing bad things. Will I accept and adapt to this propoganda? No. I have a firm grip on my conscience, my knowledge of right and wrong, of truth, and nothing you or anyone else says is going to make me let go of something so precious.

[Brasil]

[quote name='Adahn']I apologize, Alex, I misunderstood you. In saying that 'times have changed', I meant that what is socially unacceptable has changed. I believe that every person knows what is right and wrong, and this knowledge is what we know as the human conscience. Some people like doing what is wrong, and this is the case today. People get a sick pleasure out of killing, stealing, and raping people. They know it's wrong, and they revel in it. There are worse people who revel in spreading lies and corrupting morality. They aren't revolutionaries. There is no evolution. They are just bad people who enjoy doing bad things. Will I accept and adapt to this propoganda? No. I have a firm grip on my conscience, my knowledge of right and wrong, of truth, and nothing you or anyone else says is going to make me let go of something so precious.[/quote]
[quote name='Siren]Exactly, Adahn. Times [i]have[/i'] changed. So why do we keep hearing the same anti-homosexuality faith-based rhetoric?[/quote]
You [i]still[/i] haven't answered my question, Adahn. You went off on some tangent soapbox speech about rape, murder, and theft, and how murderers and rapists love what they do and revel in the fact that they're inflicting harm, and then talk about those who are corrupting "morality" (quotes for a reason), then call it propaganda? [i]Please[/i]. And how in the hell does that ("that" being murder, rape, etc) relate to homosexuality, anyway? It doesn't. I wasn't talking about rape, murder, stealing or anything of the sort.

[quote]They are just bad people who enjoy doing bad things.[/quote]
I should hope you're talking about murderers and rapists there.

Nowhere in your reply have you [i]actually[/i] answered my question. I asked you that if times were changing (and your re-definition of "times have changed" doesn't change anything here), why do we keep hearing the same anti-homosexual faith-based rhetoric. Like I said, your re-definition doesn't change anything.

In your previous posts, "times have changed" still meant social norms were changing. You said that you wished Christians could see how times are changing (i.e., social norms changing), and maybe it's just me, but I'd consider that an implication of something changing in [i]your[/i] worldview. But the following...

[quote]Will I accept and adapt to this propoganda? No. I have a firm grip on my conscience, my knowledge of right and wrong, of truth, and nothing you or anyone else says is going to make me let go of something so precious.[/quote]
...says otherwise. And what "propaganda" are you talking about, anyway? Come on, deal in specifics here. And this firm grip on your conscience, a conscience that is clearly faith-based, based on a 2000 year-old text that functions more as a guide than a strict ruleset?

[TheShinje]

[quote=Siren]What is the cause of religious conflict? Why is there Jihad in the world? Why were there some seven Crusades (and a children's Crusade)?

It's because every religion in the world today is an Expanded Universe religion. Think Star Wars. You have the Original Trilogy, the TRUE Star Wars, then you have various side-stories (novels, games, boardgames, etc). The side-stories are the Expanded Universe. They're the material that branched off of the real Star Wars.[/quote] [size=1][b]
I Spent [/b]about an hour trying to build a feasable rebuttal to the expanded univserse God theory, but I could only come back full-cricle, in the sense that everything I wrote came to agreeance witht that theory.

You have God, and, if you beleive like I do, then he has isntictively placed his law into everything and everyone created. It's like a binding glue law that holds the universe together.


Then you get people, people who have not heard the ture God's calling, and all they have is that heart-wirtten law, and with that, they create their God. It's the most reaosnable answer to global religous conflict yet. Especially when you know that every side strongly believes their God is the correct form of God.

I strongly, for example, believe the God of christianity, reason being is that no other God worshipped today has sent his own son to die for the sins fo mankind. Other religions preach different ideas and doctrine, but I'm firm and fatihful in my orignal belief. To me, [i]this iteration of God is the one the others branched off from![/i]

I have [b]faith[/b] that the events, and my salvation, as described in the Bible, will happen. (and are, if you look at scripture, starting to happen today)


If anyones's going to sucessfuly compare world religions to Star Wars, it'd be you, Alex. ^_~
[/size]
[QUOTE=kabapu]the problem with religeon is that you can't question what they say openly. because then you are deemed a "faschist" or any number of derogatory terms.
[/QUOTE] [size=1][b]Are you[/b] kidding? Do you really believe that you can't spread your falsehoods without being labeled as a fascist?

Have you ever tried being of a faith? We tend to spread the good news of our faith among the people we're around, and we're labeled as bigots, Jesus freaks, and a number of derogatory terms. In fact, in some countries, Christians are not allowed to spread their faith, lest they die. Christians are not likely to stone you for promoting an atheist view (well, at least not the rational ones)

Look at my answer to Alex's post, am I labelling him a fascist because he is bringing out a more radical approach to God than I'm comfortable with? no, I'm exploring the idea and the feasability of it. I'm accepting of all opinions and ideas, wether I ultimately agree with them or not. This is hardly the protrayal of Christian that you throw out there, is it?



[/size]

[elfpirate]

[b]People seem to need religion in order to cope with what's going on around them- to make sense of the things they don't understand and to offer comfort when faced with the trials of life.[/b]

[b]Without a devine deity and an evil deity, people become more responsible for their own actions. I don't know if the majority of those religious people could deal with the fact that a person would simply choose to be evil without the influence of a "devil". Nor do I think that they could cope with the idea that this life is all that there is- when they die, there is no special place for them and no reward for making the "right" decisions in their life on earth.[/b]

[b]Religion gives them the answers to the life questions that everyone asks (in some form or another).[/b]

[b]And, yes, the ideals of nearly every religion are benevolent, but in every religion, there has been extreme "evil" perpetrated in the name of their god... by false representatives of the faith, mind you...[/b]

[b]My conclusion- religion is neither ignorant nor intelligent. It is simply part of the human condition that some people need that particular crutch to lean on in order to get them through life.[/b]

[b]Everyone has a vice to help them cope with life- religion is one of those vices.[/b]

[dMage]

[COLOR=DarkGreen][FONT=Arial][QUOTE]My conclusion- religion is neither ignorant nor intelligent. It is simply part of the human condition that some people need that particular crutch to lean on in order to get them through life.[/QUOTE]

While I do not agree with that part about religion being whole-heartedly ignorant or intelligent, I do think that religion is a sort of crutch, an answer and escape to some of humanities deepest and most roving secrets.

Everything so far has been really interesting, and, unlike some of my fellow board members, I am learning much from what is being said, and finding the viewpoints of all interesting and thought provoking...having said this, I wish to add my own 2 cents, but, i do also want to apologize in advance if anyone finds my assumptions or thoughts to be rubbish...sorry, but its really hard for me to reach universal acceptance.

Firstly, I, like Siren, am interested in how you view homosexuality in today's society. The Bible, if I am not mistaken, is a transient text, in that with the coming of times and evolution of humanity has also evolved, both in the way it was written, and in the interpretation of it. This,coupled with the fact that God (in any way shape or form) has become much more low key since his OT days, would lead me to believe that he would accept all of his children, no matter what they're sexual preference may be.

[QUOTE]POST BY JAPAN_86
Christianity is where you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. When you believe that Jesus died on the cross for YOU to wash away YOUR sins, then you become a Christian. That's more than the simple....do good acts and you'll get to Heaven. If you don't believe Jesus died for you to wash away your sins, you'll go to Hell. I am not shoving it down your throats, I'm just telling you what is true. [/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but this is the main reason why I hate to tie myself with any Christian religion, even though is was the one that I was raised in myself (well, Catholicism, to be honest) how can anyone go to Hell if they have lead a good life. I think that Judaism is far more fair when it comes to this part in their beliefs. How can a man/woman who raped, killed, and sinned beyond belief be accepted over a humble person, when thier only difference is that one believes in Christ and the other does not? I'm sorry, but thats the most unfair sh*^&est conclusion any person could ever come up with. And as for that part about the Crusades, it was really just a real greedy Christianity trying to show how they great they were.

In a quick defense of Islam...isn't it funny how everyone seems to believe that they are the most wicked, evil, and impure of religions....yet there holy text is the only one that has never gone through a revision, and they are also the only religion who haven't taken part in some of the worlds most horrible genocide's ever? (and for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, the Crusades, which were 8 in all, and the Holocaus, were both very much Christian phenomenons)

I also have a question for those of you present...read on if you like...[spoiler] For those of you who saw Constantine, at the end of the movie, Gabriel gives a little monologue on how the world would be better if things were worse, seeing as those who usually reach God are unworthy, because they are sinners who only accept God in the end. Do you agree with this? Do you guys think that anyone who repents at the end should be forgiven? I know I haven't lead a perfect life, but I constantly find myself wondering why do good, when theres an easily available "Get out of Hell" card at my disposal. thoughts?[/spoiler][/FONT][/COLOR]

[John]

When I started reading this thread, I was thinking that I was going to actually quote stuff and respond to statements individually. Unfortunately, as happens with pretty much all internet religious debates, I quickly noticed the small size of the scrollbar.

So yeah, I'm just going to respond to some of the general arguments I've seen here instead, and then maybe at a later time give a small outline of the beliefs of (at least) Baptists, so noone will feel obligated to contort everything they think they know about it into a hateful, broad generalization. Again.

In response to the Original Sin argument, I feel quite certain that most Christian denomenations actually [i]don't[/i] believe in it. I don't know where anyone got that idea, but it's wrong. Everyone is born without a rational thought in their head, and they obviously can't sin without at least thinking.

In response to the idea that all Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc. are oppresive, maniacal hate mongers, well, you're wrong. Those people are stupid, and they are incredibly few and far between. Bottom line is that stupid people attract more attention, and consequently that's all you see in the news. Since [i]everyone[/i] knows that the news is a complete and accurate representation of life as we know it, that [i]must[/i] mean that all religious people are stupid like that, right? Pft.

In response to the homosexuality thing, stop your whining. You believe that homosexuality is ok, and as an Atheist (or whatever you may be) that is a completely sensible belief. The thing you don't seem to see is that we are [b]not[/b] Atheists (or whatever), and we see things differently. Your opinions on the issue, as far as it goes politically, oppress us as much as ours do you.

[b]EDIT:[/b] I had to get off the computer before I was done, so I'll finish what I was saying now.

Back to the homosexuality. I even have a very controversial stance on the gay rights movement, at least coming from a Christian. I am completely 100% against gay marriage, but I do support gay [i]rights[/i]. I don't believe that God would have Christians oppress other people, even if they're sinning. People should be given the option, even legally, to sin. That's why God put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. He commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from it, but if they weren't at least made aware of the option, then they would be no more than God-praising robots who only do so because it's the only thing they know.

And even if this wasn't the case, what's oppressing gay rights going to do to our witness as Christians? It's going to pulverize it. There's no way we'll be able to successfully witness to a gay person again if we're known only for putting them on a lower social rung in society.

So now on to the things that at least one denomenation, Baptists, believe.

1) We believe that Jesus died, rose, is the Savior and the Son of God. Very common.

2) We don't believe in homosexuality, but at least one Baptist doesn't believe in oppressing it.

3) We don't believe in Original Sin

4) We believe in telling people of Jesus and our faith, and that is something that is commanded of us. Try not to get your panties in a bunch when we do, because you are still free to believe what you will. We're just telling you what we know to be the truth, and asking you sincerely if you would like to consider what we say.

5) We are not the crazed radicals you see on channel 4 smacking people on the forehead to miraculously heal them. Not everyone who says they're a Christian really is, because it's more than a loose guideline for life. It's a spiritual relationship with God, and a belief in specific doctrines.

If there's anything else you'd like to know, ask me and I'll edit it in.

[b]EDIT 2:[/b]
[QUOTE][font=Arial][color=#006400]I'm sorry, but this is the main reason why I hate to tie myself with any Christian religion, even though is was the one that I was raised in myself (well, Catholicism, to be honest) how can anyone go to Hell if they have lead a good life. I think that Judaism is far more fair when it comes to this part in their beliefs. How can a man/woman who raped, killed, and sinned beyond belief be accepted over a humble person, when thier only difference is that one believes in Christ and the other does not? I'm sorry, but thats the most unfair sh*^&est conclusion any person could ever come up with.[font=Tahoma][color=black][/QUOTE]Whoa there, buddy. You ask how someone who lead a good life can go to Hell? Well, how good do you think that person's life is from the perspective of the almighty, flawless God that they want to be in the eternal prescence of? Not very. By human standards, they might have lead a great life. But Heaven isn't exactly the most human location to be, is it?[/color][/font][/color][/font]

[elfpirate]

[quote name='dMage][color=darkgreen][font=Arial] While I do not agree with that part about religion being whole-heartedly ignorant or intelligent, I do think that religion is a sort of crutch, an answer and escape to some of humanities deepest and most roving secrets.[/font'][/color][/quote]

[b]I said it was [i]neither[/i] ignorant nor intelligent. I don't know if you read my post correctly or not... but I don't want anyone to think I said anything about religion being a manifestation of ignorance- nor do I want to be quoted as saying it is entirely intelligent...[/b]

[b]Sorry if I misunderstood why you quoted my post and your response to it... but I felt the need to clarify what I had actually said.[/b]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet] I was going to reply to Adahn's religious rhetoric, but I'll just let him and Siren have their little slice of Summerland.


Well, this is fun. The problem with religion is that so many people veiw even one sect of a religios group in many different ways. Heck, there are some Christians who don't think that Catholics are Christian and there are Catholics who don't consider themselves Christian. There are Christians who think that Catholics are Idolators there are Catholics that think that other Christians are going to Hell for not believing as they do. And that's just one small group! :animeswea

I'm not Catholic any more, actually I'm not quite sure which path to take at this time because I haven't been doing anything else I'm supposed to. But when I followed the Catholic faith there were things that I did and didn't agree with. Mostly didn't. I enjoyed the singing and the fact that when you were praying you felt closer to God. But I didn't like that you weren't allowed to question the Dogma or try to figure out why God hates some things one minute yet turn around and learn that God is loving and foriving! For the love of God make up your mind.

I ended up talking religion with a girl in my riding lesson a few weeks ago. She said that she was Catholic, but had some Buddhist leanings like the afterlife. We got to talk more about religion during our cool out and both agreed that the main thing religion should teach is understanding of both other people and other religions.

In conclusion when it comes to finding a religion that suits you I think the best thing to do is take my brother's lead and make up your own. :animeangr [/color]

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='elfpirate][b']People seem to need religion in order to cope with what's going on around them- to make sense of the things they don't understand and to offer comfort when faced with the trials of life.[/b][/quote]

Since not everyone has a religion, this quote implies that those who have a religion use it in order to cope. It is not because of faith, no, it is just something they buy into it because they're gullible and weak-willed. What a load of crap.

[quote name='elfpirate][b']Without a devine deity and an evil deity, people become more responsible for their own actions.[/b][/quote]

Not true at all. Ever hear of the Ten Commandments? People are very much responsible for their actions. Ever hear of repenting, either? This is an act of people begging forgiveness for what they've done. In order to do that they have to admit what they've done. How is this not personal responsibility? If anything, it is an atheist who is more likely to not take responsibility for their actions. After all they have no divine being to answer to so what would it matter to them?

[quote name='elfpirate][b']I don't know if the majority of those religious people could deal with the fact that a person would simply choose to be evil without the influence of a "devil". Nor do I think that they could cope with the idea that this life is all that there is- when they die, there is no special place for them and no reward for making the "right" decisions in their life on earth.[/b][/quote]

Again, categorizing all religious people as people who subconsciously know they're dealing with a made-up religion to help themselves because they're so weak. If you had any faith you'd realize it's not just a matter of "you know, I think I like Christianity. It makes me feel good. I guess I'm a Christian now." It's not like that at all. It isn't a matter of tricking yourself into believing something, which you imply. For some it is that way - but they are obviously not true Christians.

[QUOTE=elfpirate][b]My conclusion- religion is neither ignorant nor intelligent. It is simply part of the human condition that some people need that particular crutch to lean on in order to get them through life.[/b]

[b]Everyone has a vice to help them cope with life- religion is one of those vices.[/b][/QUOTE]

What a load of ********. If you have no faith you have no room to speak about what it's like; you simply have no idea. What if I told a gay person how he should feel? I'd be banned for my insensitivity. Since I'm not gay I can't tell them what they're doing or why they're doing it. Yet people can constantly tell religious people this kind of crap. Screw you.

[Gravy Train]

Curse all these religious threads on the anime forums. I want to walk away and not look inside, but I can't, because I know that some moron will make laughable assumptions about a certain faith.

Okay, to set some of the things straight that have been said here about Christianity, Roman Catholic inparticular.

1. People that haven't heard of God do not go to Hell. If they live a life in pursuit of the truth, then there is nothing keeping them out of Heaven. And everyone has original sin, it's just another word for "fallible." Since we are not perfect, we are fallible, so we have original sin.

2. Children are only responsible for their actions when they turn 7. And that is assuming that they have been taught the correct difference between right and wrong. Even then, kids aren't held as reliable for the things they do.

3. We do not hat gays, in fact, most of our priests are gay. :animesmil Oh man, couldn't help myself there. Actually, you have to take into consideration that the unspeakable acts were done by a few dozen priests whereas there are tens of thousands of priests in the U.S. that belong to that faith. Always a few bad apples in the crowd. Back to the point, we don't hate gays or think that they are going to Hell. We just believe that sexual acts should have the intention of and be open to conception. :animecry:

4. Most importantly, we do not believe in Christianity because we are weak and need some kind of hope. In fact, it is much harder to live as a Christian than it is not to, mostly because of fools with opinions like that. It doesn't take courage to believe that there is nothing after death. It only takes despair, if you believe that we are all insignificant, and to not despair over it only takes apathy, to a certain degree.

5. We are no more gullible for listening to priests(we don't take everything they say as heavenly mandate) than you would be for listening to a teacher. Nor are we ignorant. Ignorance is the root of all evil. We try and steer the other way.

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Annalisse][color=#404142]
I severely disagree with "God's" dislike to homosexuality.. [/color][/QUOTE]
Homosexuality is generally seen as defying God's will. So to most people, they believe he doesn't like it.

[dMage]

[COLOR=DarkGreen][FONT=Arial][QUOTE]Post by [B]WHO?[/B]
Whoa there, buddy. You ask how someone who lead a good life can go to Hell? Well, how good do you think that person's life is from the perspective of the almighty, flawless God that they want to be in the eternal prescence of? Not very. By human standards, they might have lead a great life. But Heaven isn't exactly the most human location to be, is it?[/QUOTE]

Should that not matter though? If the almighty is as benevolent and loving as he is, then why should he shun a person who has done just about everything he has asked of his creation/charges? Just because this person does not believe in his/her son, or because they just never took the time to idolize and worship him?

Also, shoudn't Heaven be the most humane of places? I mean, if we were created in God's image, and he tried to craft us into beings that were worthy of him, then wouldn't it follow that we try to be more like him? as opposed to just believing in him? Sometimes I think of comparing this to the whole "actions speak louder than words" saying. If you really believe, and have faith, than your actions, rather than you words, should reflect it.

And how about we look at the flipside of this? What if the true way to get into Heaven/Paradise/whatever is the good place after death really is based on merit and action, rather than belief? [/FONT] [/COLOR]