Religous question(Do not read if you are easily offended by talks about religon)

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='dMage']If the almighty is as benevolent and loving as he is, then why should he shun a person who has done just about everything he has asked of his creation/charges?[/quote]

You don't get into heaven by good deeds. You get into heaven because you love and believe in God. The proper actions will follow from this. This is what Christians believe, end of story. No amount of good deeds will get you into heaven. If you don't believe in God you're rejecting Him. You can't reject him and still expect entrance to his paradise. You're either in or out. That's all there is to it.

[quote name='dMage']If you really believe, and have faith, than your actions, rather than you words, should reflect it.[/quote]

Very good. Someone actually said something correct in this thread.

[quote name='dMage']And how about we look at the flipside of this? What if the true way to get into Heaven/Paradise/whatever is the good place after death really is based on merit and action, rather than belief?[/quote]

But it's not. And it doesn't matter whether or not you like it or whether or not a billion people don't like it. If you don't love and believe in God you reject him and therefore you will not be going to heaven.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]No matter what you tell people, they're generally content to follow what they believe. Logic doesn't dent their armour, reasoning does not detract their gaze from the prize at the end of the rainbow. As long as they don't bother you, why does it hurt? Some people gain comfort or security from the 'knowledge' that there is somebody high in the sky, watching over them and protecting them. I'm not a subscriber to these beliefs, yet at the same time I'm prepared to accept that the truth may lie on either side.

Which is what I wish more people would do ~_^[/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='wrist cutter']You don't get into heaven by good deeds. You get into heaven because you love and believe in God. The proper actions will follow from this. This is what Christians believe, end of story. No amount of good deeds will get you into heaven. If you don't believe in God you're rejecting Him. You can't reject him and still expect entrance to his paradise. You're either in or out. That's all there is to it.[/quote]
Nope. If you "believe in Christ" but live a bad life, you're going to hell. However, if you truly "love and believe in God," your actions should be loving and virtuous anyway.

I [personally] believe that if you live a virtuous life, but don't believe in Christ, He will accept you. He is a just God, and I believe He won't accept a mediocre Christian over a virtuous Muslim. This also stems from my personal belief that everyone's worshipping the same God with cultural differences.

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='Altron']Nope. If you "believe in Christ" but live a bad life, you're going to hell. However, if you truly "love and believe in God," your actions should be loving and virtuous anyway.[/quote]

Usually when you use quotes, you're quoting something. However you quoted me wrong. Here's what I actually said:

"You get into heaven because you love and believe in God."

That's what I said.

And here's the thing about that quote: if you truly love and believe in God, good deeds will follow. If you think it's possible to love God and be some terrible person... it's like saying you can stilly love your wife and openly cheat on her every night. It doesn't work. I'm not saying when you love God you'll suddenly be perfect. But I'm saying that if you believe and love God the deeds will follow.

If you don't, then you won't go to heaven. That's all there is to it.

[Kanojo]

Religion
She waits for death
She waits forever for this life to be over
She thinks she will receive Heaven then
She waits for life when her life is over
Her sadness rises above all sadness
Her fears rise above all that is good
She worships the teachings of men who are evil
She sees what they tell her to see
She denies all that is finished
There is no end to her strivings
When she has been given everything
but cannot see it
She cannot give or receive love
for she cannot take it with her
Her work is never done
Her sacrifice is never enough
She tries to laden others with her burden
She wants them to wait for death like her
For she sees no joy in even the joyful
and still she waits for her reward
for suffering life
There is no escape but death
Death is better than life to her
She waits for death

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Altron']This also stems from my personal belief that everyone's worshipping the same God with cultural differences.[/quote]I guess this leaves Atheists or non-believers out in the cold then?[/size]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Am I the only one that seriously hopes that there is no afterlife at all? Am I the only one that hopes that we all just rot in our graves and thats it?

And how does that make me a horrible person? (not rhetorical or sarcastic) I think people on page three/four have said that. (actually, I think they said something different, but were alluding to the fact that it makes me a horrible person. I can't even find what they said anymore. grr...)

And for the record, because I know someone's going to say I'm an idiot who doesn't believe in God, I do.


I believe that [b]some[/b] of the aspects of the religions on earth are to give an answer to what is truly right and wrong. I think as well as being selfish and greedy bastards, we, for the most part, want to do what is right and know what is right, which is some of what religion is about - defining what is "truly" right.

Who knows if I'm right, or you're right, or that bloke with the sandwich is right. It's all just opinion and what you choose to believe.[/color]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Baron Samedi']I guess this leaves Atheists or non-believers out in the cold then?[/quote]
Not necessarily, and here's how:

"I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."

Meaning, I view myself not as part of something larger than myself; I view myself as myself.

Therefore, I consider myself in an element that is all my own.

Therefore, I am master of my domain, in control of my life, living in the here and the now, independently of any "higher power."

Therefore, I am my own God.

So, in a sense, Altron's statement still holds true, even for Atheists and non-believers, because they believe themselves to be alone, as it were, living their lives without belief in the higher power, therefore acting independently in their lives, and thus, acting as their own God.

And the cultural difference angle still remains concrete, because it's a cultural difference between believers and non-believers. But the belief in a controlling/guiding power is still readily apparent.

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=wrist cutter]Since not everyone has a religion, this quote implies that those who have a religion use it in order to cope. It is not because of faith, no, it is just something they buy into it because they're gullible and weak-willed. What a load of crap.



Not true at all. Ever hear of the Ten Commandments? People are very much responsible for their actions. Ever hear of repenting, either? This is an act of people begging forgiveness for what they've done. In order to do that they have to admit what they've done. How is this not personal responsibility? If anything, it is an atheist who is more likely to not take responsibility for their actions. After all they have no divine being to answer to so what would it matter to them?



Again, categorizing all religious people as people who subconsciously know they're dealing with a made-up religion to help themselves because they're so weak. If you had any faith you'd realize it's not just a matter of "you know, I think I like Christianity. It makes me feel good. I guess I'm a Christian now." It's not like that at all. It isn't a matter of tricking yourself into believing something, which you imply. For some it is that way - but they are obviously not true Christians.



What a load of ********. If you have no faith you have no room to speak about what it's like; you simply have no idea. What if I told a gay person how he should feel? I'd be banned for my insensitivity. Since I'm not gay I can't tell them what they're doing or why they're doing it. Yet people can constantly tell religious people this kind of crap. Screw you.[/QUOTE]

[b][color=darkred]Alright, I'll ignore the fact that you are so arrogantly flaming me and *ahem* being an outright freakin' jerk... but let me clue you in to a few things, Wrist Cutter.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]I wasn't implying that religious people have chosen a religious path solely in order to cope. Nor did I imply weakness or gullibility of any sort. I was stating that religion actually helps people to cope with the world around them. It's a basic observation. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Have I ever heard of the Ten Commandments? What are those? [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Fool- does this not imply that these sins and virtues (of the Ten Commandments) are the influence of either a good deity or of an evil deity? I'm pretty damned certain that it states in the bible that satan is at the root of all evil, not man's free will... and that the will of man can be turned by evil and the man made to do evil deeds. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Without satan and God, there would be no good entity to steer man's will in the right direction, and no evil entity to steer him in the wrong direction- all that is left is the heart and the will of man. That is what I meant by "responsible for their own actions".[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Ok- and again, you accuse me of implying that Christians are weak and you take it even further by claiming that I said that Christianity is a farse in and of itself.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]I don't believe that I even said anything about Christianity in the first place. I'm pretty sure that I left it open-ended as "religions". I never implied that ANY religion was a farce...and I never implied anything about tricking oneself into believing anything.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]"If you had any faith you'd realise..." What do you know about my faith? Perhaps, if you had any brains, you'd realise that you don't know me and it's therefore idiotic to make any assumptions about me. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]And exactly when did I tell any religious person how they should feel? Feel whatever the hell you want- I don't give a ****... And how in the world did homosexuality get brought up? Where the hell were you going with that one? [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]I think that you were in such a hurry to be pissed off at someone that you read my post and saw only what you were hoping to see on this thread- not what I actually had written...simply so you could defend something that wasn't even being attacked to begin with. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]And I said quite clearly that I did not think that religion was unintelligent... but maybe you missed that part...[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Banned for insensitivity? How about for being an immature jerk that ends his posts with something like "Screw you."? Your degree of sensitivity is duly noted... jackass.[/color][/b]

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='elfpirate']I wasn't implying that religious people have chosen a religious path solely in order to cope. Nor did I imply weakness or gullibility of any sort. I was stating that religion actually helps people to cope with the world around them. It's a basic observation.[/quote]

You implied it again. There are people who have no religion, so logically you can deduce that these people can cope on their own. For people with religion now, you're saying it's a way of coping with the world around them. You're saying they need this religion in order to deal with things. That implies they are weaker. Religion has nothing to do with just finding an easy answer. Here's a quote of yours: "It is simply part of the human condition that some people need that particular crutch to lean on in order to get them through life." You're now relating those with religion to INJURED PEOPLE (with the phrase "crutch to lean on"). OF COURSE they're weaker if they need a crutch. You said it yourself, right there.

[quote name='elfpirate']Fool- does this not imply that these sins and virtues (of the Ten Commandments) are the influence of either a good deity or of an evil deity? I'm pretty damned certain that it states in the bible that satan is at the root of all evil, not man's free will... and that the will of man can be turned by evil and the man made to do evil deeds.[/quote]

The devil can tempt man. What's your point? A confession is not using the devil as a scapegoat. When you confess your sins, the blame is squarely on the confessor, or it should be anyway. They don't try to blame the devil for what they've done.

[quote name='elfpirate']I don't believe that I even said anything about Christianity in the first place. I'm pretty sure that I left it open-ended as "religions". I never implied that ANY religion was a farce...and I never implied anything about tricking oneself into believing anything.[/quote]

If religion is just a tool used by people to cope with lives OF COURSE IT'S A FARCE! If it's part of the "human condition" as you say, then it's just some made up thing people use to feel good about themselves according to you. Religion has nothing to do with picking and choosing which one you think suits you or your lifestyle best.

[quote name='elfpirate']"If you had any faith you'd realise..." What do you know about my faith? Perhaps, if you had any brains, you'd realise that you don't know me and it's therefore idiotic to make any assumptions about me.[/quote]

I meant faith in terms of Christianity. You clearly aren't a Christian. I can assume that from your post, unless everything you've said up to this point has been a lie.

[quote name='elfpirate']And exactly when did I tell any religious person how they should feel? Feel whatever the hell you want- I don't give a ****... And how in the world did homosexuality get brought up? Where the hell were you going with that one?[/quote]

If you can't figure it out I'm not sure if I could explain the complexities of analogies to you.

[quote name='elfpirate']And I said quite clearly that I did not think that religion was unintelligent... but maybe you missed that part...[/quote]

Intelligence had nothing to do with it. You were saying religion was a crutch for weak-willed people.

[quote name='elfpirate']Banned for insensitivity? How about for being an immature jerk that ends his posts with something like "Screw you."? Your degree of sensitivity is duly noted... jackass.[/quote]

Way to go, winner. Insult me and then outright tell me you're sinking to my level.

[Drix D'Zanth]

I have tried my very best to avoid this thread at all costs. Usually a religious thread pops up on OB, giving newer members and old a chance to throw their rhetoric around. Members will attack other?s lifestyles and dogma, and members will issue challenge to their beliefs, not the fundamentals, always the specifics.

You can take a fish apart, study every little piece and understand how a fish swims, but when you sew him back together he?s just not going to swim right.

If there?s a problem I sense here it?s a sincere lack of empathy. I never need to justify my faith to any man. I don?t even need to justify it to myself or God. My relationship with God may be personal, but it is also public. I am a Christian, that is, I am to emulate Jesus as best as possible? to walk in his shoes as best I can. He is my truth? my absolution. It?s simple to debate the desire or idea of God from human perspective, but to actually experience a relationship with your creator? Well, that?s coming home after being lost for a long time.

I want to answer a few questions that I don?t think have been discussed properly. I noticed the mention of the ?heaven card? and simple ?salvation?. There are two beings in this universe that know my heart: myself and God. Salvation isn?t a privilege, salvation is a real choice. Simply praying for forgiveness or simply ?believing in God? isn?t going to send anyone to heaven. Your heart, if truly repentant, [i]will[/i] be forgiven if asked for. Merely asking it for the sake of a better afterlife won?t work. The truth of your heart will be the truth of your afterlife.

This deviates from the main point. Too often is discussion diverted towards what happens after death. If our whole purpose in life was to end up in Heaven, he wouldn?t have created us in the first place. We have purpose in our existence, one that can only be understood or attained through a relationship with God. I can purposefully deviate from God?s plan? I can disobey God. I am not ?steered? by God unless I choose to. However, in choosing the plan God has for my life, I will live the best life that I can. I?m not living for Jesus so I can get to Heaven?. Jesus is in my heart right now, I [i]am[/i] in heaven.

[QUOTE=Siren]
"I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me."

Meaning, I view myself not as part of something larger than myself; I view myself as myself.

Therefore, I consider myself in an element that is all my own.

Therefore, I am master of my domain, in control of my life, living in the here and the now, independently of any "higher power."

Therefore, I am my own God.

So, in a sense, Altron's statement still holds true, even for Atheists and non-believers, because they believe themselves to be alone, as it were, living their lives without belief in the higher power, therefore acting independently in their lives, and thus, acting as their own God.

And the cultural difference angle still remains concrete, because it's a cultural difference between believers and non-believers. But the belief in a controlling/guiding power is still readily apparent.[/QUOTE]

I believe that God has given everyone ?control?. I believe your belief is as dangerous as any dogma. You are only accountable for yourself? Does that mean whatever you hold true, is? I wonder, if you decided to do something considered ?wrong? by the public, would it be ?right? to you, Alex?

Think about this for a second. Dwell on the possibility of total relativity. Why would there be need for law, virtue, or order if you don?t believe in anything but yourself? Society is built upon all of our sacrifices to benefit the whole. If you are your own God, what do you owe your fellow man?

You two should probably end the flame war right now. It?s causing some pretty drastic misinterpretations.
[QUOTE=elfpirate][b][color=darkred]
[b][color=#8b0000]I wasn't implying that religious people have chosen a religious path solely in order to cope. Nor did I imply weakness or gullibility of any sort. I was stating that religion actually helps people to cope with the world around them. It's a basic observation. [/color][/b] [/QUOTE]
I?ll answer this without knowing Wrist Cutter?s religious situation, from a Christian perspective. I never chose my religion to ?cope? with anything. I don?t need to be explained how the world came into being, and the purpose that God has for me never could have triggered my awareness before I came to him. The human condition is understood and coped by us all, religion isn?t a method of dealing with it, it?s not a trip to a psychologist. I understand that some people (notably Greek and Roman mythology) are inspiring their deities based on world phenomena. My God is the answering the phenomena that is my very existence, purpose, and happiness.

[QUOTE=elfpirate][b][color=darkred
[b][color=#8b0000]Have I ever heard of the Ten Commandments? What are those? [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Fool- does this not imply that these sins and virtues (of the Ten Commandments) are the influence of either a good deity or of an evil deity? I'm pretty damned certain that it states in the bible that satan is at the root of all evil, not man's free will... and that the will of man can be turned by evil and the man made to do evil deeds. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Without satan and God, there would be no good entity to steer man's will in the right direction, and no evil entity to steer him in the wrong direction- all that is left is the heart and the will of man. That is what I meant by "responsible for their own actions".[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b] [/QUOTE]
I must first address the idea that there would be no entity. To say there can be good and evil without God and Satan to a believer is comparable to saying there may be existence in nothing. Basically, you?re riding on a theory that is purely inconceivable for Christians (I cannot honestly speak for anyone else).

That said, our will does remain as you have described it. We are God?s most amazing creation in that we have been granted the ability to ?choose?. God may have plans for my life, but I can choose to follow whatever path I desire. Now, that doesn?t mean I am making the correct choice in deviating. Satan and God may influence our lives, but it is up to us to bite the apple, not Satan.

[QUOTE=elfpirate][b][color=darkred]
[b][color=#8b0000]And exactly when did I tell any religious person how they should feel? Feel whatever the hell you want- I don't give a ****... And how in the world did homosexuality get brought up? Where the hell were you going with that one? [/QUOTE] [/color][/b]
In using the example of homosexuality, he was making an analogy about empathy. It is evident that both of you are severely misunderstanding one another?s arguments in your own heavy vitriolic.
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b] [QUOTE=elfpirate][b][color=darkred]
[b][color=#8b0000]I think that you were in such a hurry to be pissed off at someone that you read my post and saw only what you were hoping to see on this thread- not what I actually had written...simply so you could defend something that wasn't even being attacked to begin with. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]And I said quite clearly that I did not think that religion was unintelligent... but maybe you missed that part...[/color][/b]
[/color][/b][/QUOTE]

Perhaps both of you should try for more rational debate instead of making the matter so personal.

I should conclude with a little illustration of my faith in comparison to others. I believe my faith is true. I believe that if you believe and accept Jesus as your savior, you are washed of your sins because of his love for all humankind (crucifixion).

I think of my knowledge and understanding of God as the same way I believe a stove (turned on, for the purposes of the analogy) is hot. I have faith that a stove will burn me if I touch it. I don?t know if it will burn me, I only have faith in the fact that the red metal and ripples of heated air would delight in singing my skin. Now take anyone else, they can believe in this stove will not burn them. They can pray and worship the stove all they want. They can openly claim that the stove will protect them, and never burn them.

When it comes down to brass tax; if you touch a stove, you?re going to get burned.

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=wrist cutter]You implied it again. There are people who have no religion, so logically you can deduce that these people can cope on their own. Here's a quote of yours: "It is simply part of the human condition that some people need that particular crutch to lean on in order to get them through life." You're now relating those with religion to INJURED PEOPLE (with the phrase "crutch to lean on"). OF COURSE they're weaker if they need a crutch. You said it yourself, right there.

If religion is just a tool used by people to cope with lives OF COURSE IT'S A FARCE! If it's part of the "human condition" as you say, then it's just some made up thing people use to feel good about themselves according to you. Religion has nothing to do with picking and choosing which one you think suits you or your lifestyle best.

I meant faith in terms of Christianity. You clearly aren't a Christian. I can assume that from your post, unless everything you've said up to this point has been a lie.

Intelligence had nothing to do with it. You were saying religion was a crutch for weak-willed people.

Way to go, winner. Insult me and then outright tell me you're sinking to my level.[/QUOTE]
[b][color=darkred]I didn't imply anything of the sort... and bravo for taking the quote out of context. I actually said that everyone has a crutch or vice- not just religious people... and it's a figure of speech-not an implication of weakness.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Didn't I already say that I never made a statement about religion being just a tool to help people cope? If something helps a person to cope, does that automatically make it simply a means to decieve oneself? I use music to help me cope sometimes- am I tricking myself into believing that playing music will calm my nerves? Or maybe-just maybe- does it truly calm me down? Hmmm... there's a brain scratcher for you, huh?[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Since when is "the human condition" another way of saying "some made-up thing to make people feel good about themselves"? [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000] And... don't say "according to you" when the crap you're spewing hasn't come from me. Thanks- I'd appreciate that...[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]No, you can't assume that I'm "clearly not a Christian" from my post. Well, let me clarify that...I guess you can assume whatever the hell you want, but that'd be your own ignorant choice.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]"Intelligence had nothing to do with it"---Wow, you can say that again... because I never once said nor implied that religion was a crutch for weak-willed people- you came up with that one on your own...[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Apparently, you didn't catch the humor in that last bit, eh? Oh, well... it makes it even funnier that you didn't... and that you acknowledge what level I had to sink to...[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]And as for the homosexual thing... I got it. I don't need an explanation... Did you actually think your ridiculous point had escaped me? If it had, would I have taken the time to insult your sensitivity, of all things, when you've made so much fodder for me outside of that little politically-correct tangent of yours? [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Isn't there something else you'd rather defend... like, say, for instance, something that was actually under attack somehow?[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]I have no problem with religion. I really don't. And I don't think any less of religious people or any higher of non-religious people. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]Why you've made these assumptions about me, I can only guess, because your arguments don't hold water and are non-sensical. All you've done is to tell me what you [i]believe[/i] I was implying and to make a floundering attempt to use my quotes to back up [i]your implications[/i] of [i]my[/i] (supposed) implications. Sounds like someone is using quotes as "the human condition"... er... I mean, to make themselves feel good about themself...[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000]I really don't know how to make it any clearer that I wasn't implying weakness or farcity or anything negative about religious people or religion itself... but I guess I'll give it a try...[/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][b][color=#8b0000]You. Are. Baseless. In. Your. Accusations. [/color][/b]
[b]I. Wasn't. Implying. Anything. Negative. About. Religion. Or. Religious. People. [/b][/color][/b]
[b][color=#8b0000][/color][/b]

[James]

[color=#B0251E]Guys, chill. You can debate without insulting one another. I don't even know why there is a particular need to "debate" -- wouldn't you be more interested in learning how each one of you comes up with a particular conclusion? By that I mean, perhaps we should try to understand the way others think, rather than getting into this back-and-forth situation.

Enjoy it while you can, anyway.[/color]

[elfpirate]

[quote name='James][color=#b0251e']Guys, chill. You can debate without insulting one another. I don't even know why there is a particular need to "debate" -- wouldn't you be more interested in learning how each one of you comes up with a particular conclusion? By that I mean, perhaps we should try to understand the way others think, rather than getting into this back-and-forth situation.[/color][/quote][b]Yes, I [i]would[/i] prefer that... I simply felt the need to defend myself from an attack upon thoughts and beliefs that weren't even mine to begin with. [/b]

[b]Please, [i]by all means, [/i]people- try to understand the way others think- and when they blatantly say" No, you've misunderstood me"- try to accept that you've misunderstood them, instead of tearing them a new ***hole and demanding that they admit that they meant something else...;) .[/b]

[b][size=2]To Drix[/size]- okay, my apparently terrible communication skills aside, what I was getting at was simply that, as a Christian, when things get you down or you feel that life is just giving you a beating, you can take comfort in your faith, in your beliefs, and in your savior, right? Isn't it comforting to know that God has a plan for you and that He loves you? Isn't it true that you can lean on Him for comfort when you need it because He is the stronger one?[/b]

[b]That was all that I was saying. No implications beyond that... no reading between the lines... I said what I meant... or, at least, I think I did...:D .[/b]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Drix D'Zanth']I have tried my very best to avoid this thread at all costs. Usually a religious thread pops up on OB, giving newer members and old a chance to throw their rhetoric around. Members will attack other?s lifestyles and dogma, and members will issue challenge to their beliefs, not the fundamentals, always the specifics.[/quote]
*is innocent*

[center][img]http://www.otakuboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22542&stc=1[/img][/center]

[quote]I believe that God has given everyone ?control?. I believe your belief is as dangerous as any dogma. You are only accountable for yourself? Does that mean whatever you hold true, is? I wonder, if you decided to do something considered ?wrong? by the public, would it be ?right? to you, Alex?

Think about this for a second. Dwell on the possibility of total relativity. Why would there be need for law, virtue, or order if you don?t believe in anything but yourself? Society is built upon all of our sacrifices to benefit the whole. If you are your own God, what do you owe your fellow man?[/quote]
Jordan, please don't misconstrue "I am my own God" as some Nietzsche-esque Superman philosophy, heh.

The principle behind "I am my own God" is taking control of one's life, developing it, taking responsibility for both the good and the bad. If one can live without the Force, one has developed a strength that others have not.

And in some ways, it's actually better to live without belief, because if you believe and it turns out there isn't anything to believe in (and if there never has been), that's a pretty huge (and probably very emotionally and mentally harmful) revelation. If there is, then no worries.

On the other hand, if you don't believe and it turns out there is something to believe in, you're going to be pleasantly surprised. If there isn't, then no worries.

[EVA Unit 100]

[QUOTE=Godelsensei]All religions are the same.

That is: they're all elitist, discriminatory cliques run by crazy, sexist, homophobic, racist old guys who love to claim that it is only through [paying, worshipping, and waiting on] them that any one might achieve a half decent afterlife.

Unfortunately, people believe them.[/QUOTE]

I understand where you're coming from, but that statement was a bit discrimatory.

Bad people would be bad people whether they were religious or not. It is just that the religious ones usually end up in power and thus get recognized. I'm pretty sure if Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, or any of the main founders of any religion were alive today, you'd likely find them to be decent people. If they were racist, sexist, or homophobic it would probably be more due to the political environment during their time and less due to their religiousness. Also another thing to remember is that, outside of the Torah and maybe a few things I haven't heard of, pretty much all religious docterines are believed to be human-written records of a connection with (the) God(s) and not actually words of Divinity, and since humans make mistakes, no docterine can be taken word-for-word. Even the Torah had to be scribed by Moses so not even that has to be taken word-for-word. Also the Bible, Qu'araan, and most other religious documents outlaw discrimination, so the people you talked about in your post are just being hypocrites (and yet most of them didn't vote for Kerry :animesmil ).

[thewanderer]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']Ok, how is a child like oh say a one year old, sinful? [/color][/quote]
when it says that everyone is sinful in the bible it refers that ppl inherit this from Adam and Eve since they were the first humans and they sinned everyone is sinful, it doesn't mean the child that has no common sense is sinful in the way that she or he is doing a bad thing its inherited..

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='thewanderer']when it says that everyone is sinful in the bible it refers that ppl inherit this from Adam and Eve since they were the first humans and they sinned everyone is sinful, it doesn't mean the child that has no common sense is sinful in the way that she or he is doing a bad thing its inherited..[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Which brings me back to my original question, how can a child be sinful.

YOu see, I was taught that when you don't know something that you're doing is wrong that it's not a sin. Inherited sin is pretty stupid. It's even worse when parents decide to tell their children that they're sinful.

Children are not sinful. We are not born sinful, we just become sinful. When you say that we are all born sinful that's like saying that if you died before being baptized you're automatically going to hell even though you haven't had a chance to live.[/color]

[Drizzt Do'urden]

[QUOTE][I]Originally posted by ChibiHorseWoman[/I]
YOu see, I was taught that when you don't know something that you're doing is wrong that it's not a sin. Inherited sin is pretty stupid. It's even worse when parents decide to tell their children that they're sinful.[/QUOTE]

The only thing I have to dispute that on, because I do not believe(or I should say don't know if I believe) in "original sin", because being a child. Now saying a year old or two is a bit extreme so lets use a four year old. Now when your four you have an inate sense of right and wrong. You know if you take a cookie before dinner when your mother isn't looking that its stealing and its wrong. You know if another kid is playing with a ball and you take that ball away from him that its wrong. Now thats just an example of stealing. You know profanity is wrong, you can tell the difference between a "good" word and a "bad" word. Though you may emulate it because your parents or someone else may say it, you still have a feeling its bad. So I do believe that children are capable of sin.

I do have a question though, about the seven deadly sins. I could be wrong, but aren't the seven deadly sins a guaranteed ticket to hell???

[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]Which brings me back to my original question, how can a child be sinful.

YOu see, I was taught that when you don't know something that you're doing is wrong that it's not a sin. Inherited sin is pretty stupid. It's even worse when parents decide to tell their children that they're sinful.[/color][/QUOTE]
[b]I agree that inherited sin is stupid... and that a child can't be sinful, but that's what original sin is all about- [/b]

[b]Because Adam and Eve sinned, we are all (supposedly) sinners from birth, and only being baptised and born again (or something like that) can wash away the sin that you're born with.[/b]

[b]Of course, this is only a belief held by certain religious sects, not all of them. And I definitely have a problem with the whole idea of original sin... especially because Jesus supposedly died for our sins... so the inherited ones shouldn't be there, right?[/b]

[Leofski]

Traditionally, the seven deadly sins are not one-way tickets to hell, if you are christian and repent your sins before you die you pass on to purgatory where you must spend time working off your sins before entering Heaven ( the best description i've read is Dante's [I]Purgatorio[/I] ).In addition, Non-Christians and the unbaptised travel to the highest circle of hell, in which there is no punishment other than the denial of Heaven. In my view, original sin is another way of saying that, although babies may be without spiritual fault, they are also without credit and are therefore denied Heaven. Harsh perhaps, but there is a certain logic to it.

Why non-christians are barred from Heaven is perhaps more complex. God created and loves us all, yet even the most virtuous non-christian cannot enter Heaven. It could be argued that heaven is the domain of God and hence only his followers can enter it, yet if virtue is the primary prerequisite to go to Heaven and God loves everyone, I fail to see why they cannot enter,though it is not my place to criticise it.

[yin]

okay first of all baptism is or should only be worth something if the person does it by his own volition and love of god or what have you.
numba 2, people are two proud to think they can be an accident so theyso they love the idea of a perect creator who can do no wrong.
and tree, does it really matter? i mean by my understanding it seems as if religion (all of it )is just a way to find peace and cope with the harsh world we live in.the world has not been nice to me or any one i know and after a hard day of practical abuse and multiple problems throwng dispair down on me like rain, is it so wrong that i can find hope or peace through prayer or meditation? i think not. instead of holding malice for people who throw there religion at you think about the fact that they beleave they are sharing a good thing. and remember most of your religious war starts because somone refuses to see another point of view


ps, dont rage on me coz im a hippie

[IceWolfEyes]

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[elfpirate]

[QUOTE=IceWolfEyes]
Looks like I'm part of the minority in this thread, being Jewish.
[/QUOTE]

[b]IceWolfEyes ha ba bayeet! Shalom!:animesmil [/b]

[IceWolfEyes]

lol, Shalom to you too.

I knew there was a reason I liked you, heh

Icewolfeyes