Gaming Casual gamers are taking over!

[silpheedpilot]

Please, would someone ban casual gamers from anything that is actually videogames?! Everyday I see someone walk into EB in our local mall and trade in a game that just came out not more than a week or two ago! Why? Because they are a casual gamer. They beat a game, trade it in and probably think nothing of it. But if you look at most hardcore gamers, like myself, you'll see that we buy games, keep them, and even re-play them over and over again. You can spot a casual gamer from a mile away.

Hardcore gamer: "What makes a game good?"
Casual gamer: "Graphics!"
H.G.: "What about storyline and gameplay?"
C.G.: "I just skipped the cut-scenes and I beat that game in a day and traded it in. I probably won't even want to play it again."
(Note: That is a 'fake' re-inactment, and may not portray the view of the writer. However, it does. In his opinion.)

Honestly folks, thats how it is! Casual gamers think of only the graphics and how hyped up the game is, while hardcore gamers who go out and build their own arcade machines and spend massive amounts of money in a sole search for a rare game (Chrono Trigger, anyone?), collect gaming posters, and think deep into the game rather than just scratching the surface. Who else around her can't stand casual gamers (Or rather casual gaming so's not to flame anyone)? I know I can't but the problem is that casual gamers are taking over and there is nothing us hardcore gamers can do about it. Anyone want to shine some light onto this subject? Last of all, this is all my personal opinion and is not an insult to anyone! Keep that in mind when you post against or for me.

[James]

[color=#B0251E]Well, I know a lot of "casual gamers" and I've never thought of them to be especially ignorant. Sure, they are uninformed -- when they actually see games like Viewtiful Joe they wonder why the hell they'd never heard of it before.

But having said that, they seem to appreciate story and so on just as much as I do. It's just that because they aren't as into games, or at least the industry, they aren't aware of some really good stuff out there. But generally speaking that's all it is; there are actually quite a few casual gamers who are far more intent on beating games and getting high scores than I am, even.

I wouldn't worry about the whole graphics thing anyway. These days, consumers take it for granted. And they'll increasingly do so. Eventually (the moment isn't too far away), impressive graphics won't be able to sell a game at all anymore. Yes, games will get better looking and there will usually be some really standout titles. But "good graphics" won't make much difference when we reach the point where it's hard to go any further and where the leaps forward aren't as large.

Instead of how photorealistic something looks, I think people will become more concerned about the art design, how they interact with the game and various other aspects.[/color]

[satan665]

Its a mixed bag, the more casual gamers, or any gamers out there at all means that we will get more games. The more people buying games in general will makes companies successful and everyone will be happy. The problem though is that if they are only buying big name sequels then the quality of VG's overall will get watered down. GTA clones come out because that is easy logic for game companies; to make a game similar to the one thats selling well.

I think that still there are enough hardcore gamers that everything is going well. We still get cool smaller titles like Shin Megami and Katamary Damacy to play even if they are a little harder to come by. Good games like Prince of Persia eventually bring people around to trying them. Casual gamers haven't killed us yet.

[Dagger]

I'm pretty sure I'm a casual gamer. :animedepr

Given the scenario you provided and type of behavior you described, I think you need to find a different adjective for this sub-set of fans. Personally I don't feel that someone who beats a game in "a week or two" counts as a "casual" gamer. I mean, I turn on my PS2 once every couple of weeks--or maybe every other day, if I'm in the middle of a particularly interesting game.

You also mentioned replaying games one has already beaten. I really don't understand this, because the majority of games aren't [i]worth[/i] replaying. I certainly wouldn't fault someone for trading in a game that he/she whipped through and found to be mildly entertaining, yet not good enough to keep. Besides, why should anyone have to track down rare games or buy gaming posters for the sake of being considered a real fan?

I often see these kinds of complaints in the anime fandom, and frankly it sort of irks me. Casual gamers, casual anime watchers, casual movie-goers--pick any form of entertainment, and I can guarantee you that the "casual" fans will greatly outnumber the "hardcore" fans. This is not a negative thing, and it's certainly not something new. I understand that it aggravates you, but ultimately there's really not much you can do about it.

As for the issue with graphics--well, that also has parallels to the anime industry. People happily snap up the latest shiny fanservice shows from GONZO while classic anime like Rose of Versailles and Legend of Galactic Heroes languish unlicensed. With videogames as well, older, less flashy titles won't sell much and may be very hard to find. Again, that's simply the way it is. You should feel fortunate that you've been exposed to the hidden gems which so-called casual fans may never get the chance to experience.

Just my two cents.

~Dagger~

[Shinmaru]

I think that casual gamers are getting 'smarter' about gaming, for lack of a better term. The PlayStation is what got a ton of casual gamers into gaming, and it's been almost ten years since that was released. (Side note: The years really fly by, don't they? I only realized just now how long it's been.) A lot of casual gamers who had their first taste of gaming via the PlayStation are basically gaming veterans by now. Hell, even those who got their first gaming experience from the PS2, if you want to go that route, have been playing for a while.

There are still a lot of casual gamers who will just buy big name sequels, or movie-based titles, or whatever else, no question. The lower-tier titles, in terms of gameplay, wouldn't sell nearly as well as they do if that weren't the case. I don't know if it's as highly pronounced now as it once was, though. I try not to pay attention to that sort of thing, honestly lol. If I were to guess, though, I don't think that sort of thing is nearly as prevalent as it once was. But all gamers will buy what they want to buy, so whatever.

"Hardcore" gamers (though I don't really care for that term lol) still exist and will still continue to exist, though. And as more casual gamers get caught up in gaming, I think that they will start to appreciate more than the superficial parts of a game (not that graphics, sound, music, etc. aren't important, because they certainly are). There are probably tons of them that already do. It's not as if casual gamers are stupid lol.

EDIT: To add on to what Dagger posted, I certainly don't mind casual gamers at all. The more gaming fans, the better, I say. Gaming hasn't become diluted with second-rate garbage because of an influx of casual gamers, and I know that won't be the case in the future. Mostly, I think that overreacting because of casual gamers is silly lol.

[2010DigitalBoy]

Casual gamers annoy the crap out of me, because I am a hardcore gamer (well, it depends on what you mean by that) and I tend to debate when challenged. If I hear someone saying a game is cool, Ill talk to them. I usually give them the test. First I ask if they've ever played Zelda the Wind Waker. The answers are either "I dont have a gamecube" "that game is too kiddy"(casual) or "yeah that game is cool". If they say they have no gamer I ask about what games they like and suggest some cartoony games. Usually all I hear is "I like GTA, and Halo and thats all". That really bugs me. Do they not realize there are plenty of other great games in those genres that are just as good if not better?

I, personally, tend to buy older games as they are very cheep and I dont come by money often.

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082][i]See Dagger's and Shinmaru's posts for my views on that sweeping generalization about casual gamers.[/i]

The main thing I dislike about people who buy games and then trade them in after a couple weeks is that they're wasting money on what are, for the most part, crappy games. It annoys me because I know I could put that money to so much better use, heh. Here you have people who can afford to buy stacks of games based off nothing but box art and name recognition, and just trade back the ones they don't want to keep, while I'm sitting here unable to keep up with the releases that I know are good.

But other than that little irking, I don't really care. Nintendo has always catered to its "hardcore" fans, as well as trying to attract new gamers, so I'm happy there. And there are lots of other developers that put out more than generic GTA clones and the like, so I don't really see the washed gaming masses (as opposed to those of us who are unwashed on account of spending too much time spent gaming) as hurting the quality of gaming in any significant way.[/color]

[ankoku]

The thing I mostly don't like about casual gamers and the fact that they look just at the graphics, is that more gaming companies are trying to get their attention, so they come up with games that Have wonderful graphics, but not much of a storyline. I think that ever since casual gamers came into play, the game storylines have gone downhill.

[Manic Webb]

I'm a casual gamer. I know this, because I almost never beat any of the games I buy. I know what some of you are thinking, but the only reason I haven't beat them is because I'm just really bad. Viewtiful Joe is as fun as hell, but I still can't beat it to save my life.

I like to think I'm a fairly well informed casual gamer. Most of my friends are hard-core gamers, and I tend to watch a lot of X-Play. I just happen to buy games once every blue moon, and turn on my PS2 once every few weeks. Heck, most games I buy are nearly a year old by the time I get them. I simply rarely buy/play games.

Does this mean I base every game I play on graphics? No. I base the games I buy on gameplay and story. I'm a hack/slash and platformer kid who likes a good story... which is probably why I barely buy games. I don't have the coordination for first-person shooters (you'd know this if you ever saw my fumble through Halo). I don't have the patience for turn-based RPGs, so I usually end up forcing myself to play them just to get through the story. I like racing/driving games, but they always feel too repetitive for me.

Thus my selection of games become limited, I barely get my game on, and I become a casual gamer. I'm not nearly as into gaming as anyone who would call themself "hardcore." But that doesn't mean I'm someone who sells all of their games for ridiculously low buy-back prices, and only cares about graphics.

Besides, without people who sell their games back to game stores, there wouldn't be any used games. And you can save a good $10 on a used game, if you look in the right place.

[Semjaza]

There's "casual" consumers in every market. Music, art, video, etc. Even if they are attracted to games for different reasons, I'm not understanding what how it is hurtful to those in the "hardcore" segment. There's always going to be companies that go for style over substance (if even that, since there's a lot of games that are simply "me-too!"). They've been around since games came into existance, all the way back to text based PC games. Little has changed in that sense.

Furthering that, there's always been poor movie based games, poor games in general. They didn't start with the Playstation or even the SNES or NES. Just like there's always been poor novels and films. Not everything is done with pure intentions. People buy into marketing, it's why it's such a successful profession in the first place. Companies spend a lot of money just to claim those impulse purchases.

As for graphics, I think that they're always going to be at the forefront because they're the easiest things to convey. Generally, the first way someone is introduced to a title is through trailers or screens. I think it's just a natural human idea to be drawn to things one considers attractive, the rest comes afterwards. Obviously if you keep up on news, some little tidbit of a game might get you interested as well... but for someone who doesn't, I completely understand it.

The only way you'll really learn that not all pretty games are good games will be once you're burned by a poor purchase (or several in some cases). I severely doubt that anyone bought their first game because of anything other than how it looked or how the product was displayed on a shelf. You wouldn't know any better.

The same is true of casual gamers who don't really care enough to investigate, they just try what looks decent on the shelf or has some sort of name attached to it (hell, I do that too). I don't think there's anything inherantly wrong with this. Of course, some people just have terrible taste and will tell you that some games are good no matter how bad they are.

Of course, the over abundance of cookie-cutter games that sell well give companies a major excuse to refuse to really do anything new. After GTA3 succeeded there was Mafia, Streets of LA, Getaway and probably more games I can't think of. None were as well done, really. Reliance on franchises and ideas has become a rather large problem, even for historically innovative companies that release quality games.

At the same time, I feel like it's even easier now to get many things. Years ago, you would be worried if Square would even release the latest Final Fantasy game. Now it's not even a remote concern, they all make it here in some form. There are more genres, more obscure games. There's more to choose from in general and if someone makes the choice to buy a what I consider a crappy game, what can I do? I'm happy in the fact that so many people have discovered some of the games that float underneath the surface like Shin Megami Tensei, Disgaea or Katamari Damacy.

Not as many people visit these game sites and read game magazines as people think. In fact, "hardcore" gamers that do these things are in a rather small minority when compared to the amount of systems out there. The so-called casual gamers are the ones that really determine a lot about the industry and always have since systems first hit store shelves. Considering how many good games are still out there, I can't complain much. A billion horrible pop bands have not killed off music because there's always other things out there. I think the same is true of games, even when the general scope seems somewhat bad, there's always something better out there.

[Final Remix]

[COLOR=Blue][FONT=Comic Sans MS][QUOTE=Generic NPC #3]The only way you'll really learn that not all pretty games are good games will be once you're burned by a poor purchase (or several in some cases). I severely doubt that anyone bought their first game because of anything other than how it looked or how the product was displayed on a shelf. You wouldn't know any better.
[/QUOTE]
I win. My first gaming purchase was Sonic the Hedgehog for the Genesis. I bought it because of gameplay, believe it or not... My mother already owned 2 NES's, each Atari Model, and a Coleco. At a local dept. store called Clover, they had a "New!! Sega Genesis! Check it out!" display hooked up on a big-screen monitor in the back of the T.V. section. I got through the first act of the first zone, and I was hooked.

BTTT, though...few things piss me off with gaming:
1. People who don't respect their systems, and Hoot&Holler at whomever tries to help take better care of said system. (Not just flipping the breaker on a PS2 to switch games.)
2. Someone who doesn't buy [i]anything[/i] but the blatantly crappy movie-games. Reign of Fire is a primo example.
3. People who go [i]only[/i] for the graphics. Not just somoene who says "oh, that looks cool. I'll buy it". No... They could admit that playing the game sucks, etc. etc. etc., but the graphics are "just sooo cool! lolz"

Personally, I refuse to use "casual", "hardcore", etc. labels. I do use the "gamer" label, though. To me, a gamer is someone who plays the game for the sake of playing the game, not getting the top score. Gamers make bad decisions. Non-gamers make bad decisions. It's all the same to me. Bad decisions are bad decisions.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[SunfallE]

I can't say I dislike casual gamers or hardcore gamers as I think I am both. There are many games out there that I buy, play once and turn in for another one. Not because I never intended to keep the game but because usually it turns out to be a big disapointment. For example the Final Fantasy game for GameCube. The graphics were pretty but the story line bored me to tears. Yet at the same time I have games I get and love to play again so I keep those paticular games for good. Also there are many games out there that in my opinion are only fun to play once. Halo being one *sorry I'm just not into shooter games nothing personal* And then there are games like the Lunar series and Zelda series that are entertaining and fun to play again.

I have to agree with what others have said about there being casual people in all industries. And I think casual gamers have certainly increased the demand for games. I remember all too well when playing games was at the arcade and not on a system at home. So in that respect both casual and hardcore gamers owe each other thanks as their desire to have more and more games to play has led to a huge gaming industry.

As for buying games only for graphics or how it looked, well I can't say I fall in that catagory. My first games were imitations of arcade games written by graduating computer students for an apple computer. Didn't even have color monitors yet. By the time I got my first system I was excited just to finally have color. Not spectalular graphics as they didn't exist in the gaming industy yet. Even now, if the story line is poor I don't care if it's got great graphics or not.

I guess my final word would have to be that to an extent I don't really agree with the phrase casual gamer vs hardcore gamer. Just different tastes in playing games. With some of them being more into it than others are.

[Semjaza]

[QUOTE=Final Remix][COLOR=Blue][FONT=Comic Sans MS]
I win. My first gaming purchase was Sonic the Hedgehog for the Genesis. I bought it because of gameplay, believe it or not... My mother already owned 2 NES's, each Atari Model, and a Coleco. At a local dept. store called Clover, they had a "New!! Sega Genesis! Check it out!" display hooked up on a big-screen monitor in the back of the T.V. section. I got through the first act of the first zone, and I was hooked.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I don't really think someone who obviously grew up with games around him in the sense you did really fits into the type of person I was thinking of. You might not have bought those things your mother had, but they certainly affected the way you approached future purchases. Many people do not have that luxury.

[Final Remix]

[QUOTE]Many people do not have that luxury.[/QUOTE]
[color=blue]agreed, but the number's increasing...The TV is no longer the sole electric-babysitter. I know many people personally (friends, neighbors, close/distant relatives) that basically have raised their kids on video games. Like me, a cousin of mine started with an NES, moved up to a genesis a month or so after getting proficient with Mario Bros., and is currently tanking his way through Need for Speed: Underground2, even tuning the cars. He's just turned 6, and can hardly read text beyond "start, D-pad, Control Stick, Save/Load/Delete/Yes/No". It's rather creepy to see a kid 1/3 my age copy my playing style in several games. Same with a friend's sister and Sonic games. This next generation of kids will outdo even the most hardcore of gamers, since they didn't necesarily start with the 8-bit pixel-pictures.


P.S.- Especially if i start a post with "I win" or something stupid, where there's blatantly [i]no[/i] debate, don't take me too seriously. That's basically my short way of saying "hey, look! it's that irrational exception to the rule that really shouldn't exist!"[/color]

[Semjaza]

I didn't take it completely seriously, don't worry :D

My little brothers are insanely good at games, to the point that it surprises me. They were playing KotOR more heavily than I ever was (the main one is 9, 8 at the time) and finished it. That still gets me, especially in combination with some of the other stuff he completes.

[PWNED]

I consider myself a light Hardcore Gamer because I am not new to gaming life. I will collect games but I will trade them in if they had a rather poor Multiplayer or Singleplayer and I have unlocked everything. I mean for example, A year ago or so I was playing the old SSI Pc Games and Eye of the Beholder 1 & 2 because I had never fully completed them fully. And a true Hardcore Gamer will spend as much money as possible to buy one of the Rare games out there so that they can update their collection (I just consider myself lucky that I got Suikoden 2 before It became Ultra Rare). Graphics Wise, Casual Gamers just adore games with Good Graphics and these people also care about if it is part of a big name series.
But there is an upside, It's because of the Casual Gamers that we can buy the Hidden Gems easier, So you think about it.

[elfpirate]

[b]Hmmm... well, if I buy a game and play it for a while, and can't force myself to ignore its horrible gameplay enough to get into the storyline and enjoy the damned thing, then I'll trade it in for sure. [b]Why would I keep a game that I really couldn't appreciate? [/b]Some other gamer might find it interesting enough to play and end up enjoying it more than I could......[/b]

[b]The way I see it is, the more games that are traded in (by those people who play for the sake of getting through the levels and nothing else), the more (cheaper) games I have to choose from in the "used" section.[/b]

[b]There are games that I play over and over again and probably always will, and those you'll have to pry from the hands of my corpse, but I don't have a problem with the people that don't do that. I mean, to each his own-- some people never re-read books or rewatch brilliant films... it's their loss, not ours.[/b]

[Guest shadowmatrix]

Casual Gamers are what keep the industry afloat. Casual gamers have the money instead of you hobbit nerds who buy one game, spend 6 months on it and be no better at it than day 1.i hate hardcore hobbits who think theyre so great just cause they made an arcade machine. i took my game boy apart and parted the oceans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its because of smart people like us who buy the hyped games. we buy hype games. they make money. we get more hype games. and if i had an online connection or something, i'd kick anyone's *** who disagrees with me in a hardcore game of Tekken 5. now deal!

[elfpirate]

[quote name='shadowmatrix']Casual Gamers are what keep the industry afloat. Casual gamers have the money instead of you hobbit nerds who buy one game, spend 6 months on it and be no better at it than day 1.i hate hardcore hobbits who think theyre so great just cause they made an arcade machine. i took my game boy apart and parted the oceans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its because of smart people like us who buy the hyped games. we buy hype games. they make money. we get more hype games. and if i had an online connection or something, i'd kick anyone's *** who disagrees with me in a hardcore game of Tekken 5. now deal![/quote]
[b]I'm thinking you're one of those people I was talking about that doesn't re-read good books or re-watch brilliant films... *shrugs*[/b]

[b]Heh heh... we hobbit nerds [i]don't[/i] spend six months on just one game, we buy a lot more games than you realise, including the hyped ones-- we just tend to appreciate things that are worth appreciating... and some of those hyped ones can be, but a lot of them [i]aren't[/i]... so deal.[/b]

[b]You [i][u]hate[/u][/i] us, huh? Thanks for putting so much energy into your feelings for us...:animesmil [/b]

[PWNED]

[quote name='shadowmatrix']Casual Gamers are what keep the industry afloat. Casual gamers have the money instead of you hobbit nerds who buy one game, spend 6 months on it and be no better at it than day 1.i hate hardcore hobbits who think theyre so great just cause they made an arcade machine. i took my game boy apart and parted the oceans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its because of smart people like us who buy the hyped games. we buy hype games. they make money. we get more hype games. and if i had an online connection or something, i'd kick anyone's *** who disagrees with me in a hardcore game of Tekken 5. now deal![/quote]

Now that I think of myself I am a moderatly harcore gamer instead of Light Hardcore, I hire new games and try them out and if they are alright I'll buy them. I own a few Hyped games ( Killzone and GTA SA) but It doesn't mean that I don't play the minor games. I own Suikoden 2, have beaten it 4 times and still have not beaten one of the Side Quests which spans through the entire game.
Anyway to my point

Someone that buys mainstream games is not the grain of the world. And Hardcore Hobbits? If someone takes their time in a game to unlock everything, Pays attention to whats happening and beats the game perfectly, does that make them people that think they can perform Miracles? A Hardcore gamer trys to beat their previous scores in a game to prove that they do better the second time around. Can a Casual gamer beat GTA: SA perfectly within 50 hours then beat it a second time within 43 hours then come back a third time? Could a casual gamer make full flash games on the PC? I myself have never heard of a casual gamer doing stuff like this.

I'll be back
[SIZE=4][FONT=Century Gothic]THE MONSTER[/FONT]
[/SIZE]

[Desbreko]

[quote name='shadowmatrix']Casual Gamers are what keep the industry afloat. Casual gamers have the money instead of you hobbit nerds who buy one game, spend 6 months on it and be no better at it than day 1.i hate hardcore hobbits who think theyre so great just cause they made an arcade machine. i took my game boy apart and parted the oceans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its because of smart people like us who buy the hyped games. we buy hype games. they make money. we get more hype games. and if i had an online connection or something, i'd kick anyone's *** who disagrees with me in a hardcore game of Tekken 5. now deal![/quote][color=#4B0082]I'm not sure whether this was meant seriously or not. ... But either way, it makes me laugh. :p

The thing about the super hyped up games, though, is that they aren't always good. I'd say the smart people are the ones who actually read up on games before buying them, and avoid those the crappy ones. So personally, "smart" isn't the word I use to describe people who make blind purchases. Neither is it the word I use to describe people who won't buy a game simply because it's not highly publicized.[/color]

[Tatsubei Yagyu]

I think everyone was a right to play games, but the people that play games stupidly are stupid. I kind. "Deep" right. :animestun

Plus, the way other people play their games does hurt you (unless that take a game you want before you, and bring it back a day later cause they realize its not pretty).

[Kamuro]

Casual gamers themselves don't get on my nerves, I'm sure they're nice people, but when it comes to gaming, they know nothing (at least from the POV you described). I hate it when someone who buys a game, skips past the majority of the game content and beats it, thinks they can give me advice on how to play. And if I don't beat it in a day I hear "C'mon man, that game was cake, totally easy." I find that a casual gamer collection consists of games like GTA and Halo, highly advertised and often over appreciated. If they're friends don't play it first and verify that its good, they don't buy it unless they've seen the commercial on TV. Point is, I don't want someone who beat a 40 hour game in 10 hours giving me advice on the concept of the game.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Question of the hour: Casual gamers injure you...how?

Basically, I feel like telling anyone who gets uppity about casual gamers to piss off. Just because some people enjoy beating games, and only that, doesn't make them worse than you. People are [b]different[/b], as any three year old could tell you. It's not like they're hurting you, or somehow reducing any enjoyment you get from playing your games..is it?[/size]

[MissWem]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1] Question of the hour: Casual gamers injure you...how?
[/size][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]*puts up hand eagerly* I know!!

It injures their ego to find their favourite games are swept aside in favour of a easier or perhaps, more mindless game. They just want to be popular and be recognized for having a great taste in games. Oh, and to be considered unbeatable masters of gaming amongst their friends..
[/SIZE][/COLOR][QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]
Basically, I feel like telling anyone who gets uppity about casual gamers to piss off. Just because some people enjoy beating games, and only that, doesn't make them worse than you. People are [b]different[/b], as any three year old could tell you. It's not like they're hurting you, or somehow reducing any enjoyment you get from playing your games..is it? [/size][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]I agree with you and some others, but now I think I've gone and confused myself.
~~~~~~
I thought the hardcore gamers enjoyed beating their games too, but supposedly their enjoyment stems not only from the gratification of completing the game, also from discovering all the nuances of said game i.e special features etc. etc. The only difference being is that the "casual gamer" seeks only the gratification of completing the game.

However, considering the enstranged hostility between the so-called division between gamers.. what does that make me? For years I've annoyed my brother because I've only personally (single-player) clocked two games, yet I've played a multitude of games stopping only at the very last stage and then not picking it up again.

So, wouldn't it make more sense for the casual gamer to be the type of person to play the games, and annoy the hardcore-er by never completing the game?

At least the "casual gamer" finishes the game.[/SIZE][/COLOR]