Are any out there any more???

[Semjaza]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1] Yeah, but I'd wager that the whole 'goth' stereotype probably started in America. And spread. As things from America usually do. I admitted in my post that the stereotypical American kid was a stereotype in itself, but I stand by the fact that [stereotypically'] Americans take it to the extremes, full on discriminating against people not in their own special, tiny niche.[/size][/quote]

You have no proof either way of where it started. Assumptions are hardly any better than stereotypes. I find it extremely hard to believe that people in Europe, for example, stereotype to a far less degree than people within the US. The only reason I can see the US being more of a "stereotype haven" is because of what a large melting pot the country is compared to most others.

I am finding it extremely strange that the people claiming this is largely an American idea and issue are all from outside of the US in the first place. Thrusting this on a nation one has no firsthand experience with is likely a conclusion reached through stereotypes and generalizations in the first place. I, personally, know very few people who are constantly applying these stereotypes to anything around here in any serious connotation (and if they do, they're not really people I'd consider knowledgable on the subject). The general attitude of random members on this forum is not nearly indicative of real life ratios.

People from all over the world obviously think of a certain sort of image when they think of a "goth" person. Whether or not that image is even a realistic one is up for debate, but thrusting it all on one nation as if it is our own singular problem is incredibly ridiculous and over-generalizing.

Using stereotypes to prove other stereotypes hardly seems effective. It seems exceptionally useless, actually.

A lot of current ideas on goth music, fashion and development stem from the groups that had founded the style such as Bauhaus and Siouxie and The Banshees, neither of which are from the US in the first place. If the idea didn't stem from the US, I find it unlikely that the stereotype is only at the forefront here.

The idea that people that fit into these stereotypes one way or another are not "contributing" in some way is also incredibly offensive. As for the word itself, it doesn't simply describe architecture anyway and that's obviously not what people into gothic music and fashion are relating it to.

[Decadence]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Funny how the "Gothic" stereotype goes completely against what the Gothic period was about: Light!

Gothic Cathedrals were designed to let in as much light as possible with their beautiful stained-glass windows. Just because they have gargoyles "protecting" them, the term [I]gothic[/I] suddenly has to do with the darkness?

Therefore, I don't call people who dress in black, paint their faces white, and wear black lipstick, eyeshadow, and nail-polish "Goths". More like "anti-goths". Not all "anti-goths" act depressed and stuff, and some are pretty happy and jumpy and all those other giddy things, which makes me wonder, "Okay, why dress like that? What point are you trying to get across to me? You dress in a strange, intimidating, and (in my point of view) a frightening manner, yet at the same type, you don't want people labeling you? What is your purpose?"

My sister used to work downtown and she had to take the bus home late at night. While my sister was waiting at the bus stop, this creepy girl dressed in a long black robe with a hood (which she had up), walks (more like, "glides") past her, all the while, smiling in a creepy manner, without blinking. And then a few minutes later she would "glide" past her again, that creepy smile still pasted on her face. Did I mention she had her face painted ghost-white, creepy makeup included?

Honestly, what point are these freaks, yes, FREAKS, trying to get across? Stop wasting your life and do something productive for once.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

You know, I'd really like to thank you for labbling every one who wears black as freaks. Yes i wear black, and i'd wear the eyeliner, ect. If I could get away with it, but for now I'd rather not have to deal with the conflict it would cause. And I'd also like you to know, while I may be a freak, hell I'll even agree with you there, we are freaks, were different from the majority of people, I am in no way shape or form wasting my life. Yes taking all honors classes and latin right now is a such a waste, and two AP classes next year. Thanks for the steriotype. I thought people like you wern't supposed to judge others.

Edit: You know I would really love to hear your insightful comments on how i am waisting my life, hmm. How does dressing in black mean I'm waisting my life. And if i am waisting my life, why am I doing better off in school right now then a majority of the "Normal" people. please enlighten me. I would truly love to hear it.

[Guest ToFu]

[QUOTE=wiccansamurai]Goth is a label.
Labels are for soup cans.
Goths are soup cans!
Are YOU a soup can???
[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Blue][FONT=Century Gothic]Amen to that!
I think that it's really stupid to label someone as goth, just because they wear chains or all black and act all pissy.That's not what it really is. Goths(real ones, not posers) are usually people who are more into various art forms(music, poetry, drawings/paintings ect.)they appreciate(sp?)nature and the night,and ,sure they lean towards the darker colored clohes and makeup, but they do wear a lot of white to.The whole goth thing (I think, correct me if im wrong)started back in the Victorian age, and was based on light.Yes, you heard me light.Most Cathedrals(sp?) were created to let lots of light in.Sure, they had gargoyles surrounding them, but what in the world does that have to do with the dark or whatever?So, mainly what people now think of as goth, is probably just a fashon statment. So, for the many people who shop a HotTopic cause they think the clothes will make them 'Goth", it won't.Me, I shop at HotTopic for the sole purpose of incresing my collection of Evanescence,Green Day, and Happy Bunny merchandise(plus, I like some of the clothes they sell there.Not cause there'Goth', I just have a random fascination with the color black.)Well, I've just put in my 2 cents(more like a dollar and two cents)so fire away!
Wait, someone once called me goth....OMG I'M A SOUP CAN!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

[DarkShippo]

I belive goth is origanlly a religion in rome or somthing awhile ago. I'm not really sure though

[James]

[color=#B0251E]The thing is though, most of these high school stereotypes are coming from American teens. Even in regular conversation with American teenagers, I see a lot of phrases used to describe different "groups" within the school.

This simply doesn't exist within Australia (I can't speak for other countries obviously).

So, I think it's important to point out that it's not so much about the word "goth" or the concept of a "goth" being American-centric, so much as it's an Americanism to find teenagers classing each other so specifically. Just look at the whole "emo" movement and even the word "tween". You'd simply never come across these things in my own country, lol.

So yeah. I do agree that some of these stereotypes exist elsewhere (there are "goths" in Australia for example), but they are never used here as they are over there, particularly by teenagers in high school.

Not to say that all American teens love labels and stereotypes, of course. But it does seem to be a largely American high school-based thing, with the very specific divisons on groups, based on what they wear/how they act/etc.[/color]

[Semjaza]

Well, I won't disagree with most of that, but I'm going to stick by the idea of what is presented online isn't largely indicative of what I see in actual daily life (and from talking to my friends, neither have they). Highschool or afterwards. I went to a largely black school, but no one differentiated between hip hop kids or rock kids or whatever else like things I read here would make it seem.

A lot of what I read online from people is very location specific. That much is obvious if someone makes a post saying that they don't think Nirvana was ever popular because no one in their general vicinity is a big fan. That's hardly reflecting the mass populace (Nirvana was obviously HUGE) and I think that carries over into a lot of things discussed here and on most forums involving that general age group. A lot of it is "here and now" and that's the end of it. I really think the internet exaggerates a lot of things, particularly because everyone can be far more vocal on it due to the relative anonymity.

Obviously there are labels here and a lot of them are very, very strongly defined and utilized way too much. I guess it just depends on the person. I'd rather live in Australia and avoid them entirely if what you and Baron say is true lol.

That's just my conclusions on it though. I have no statistical proof, obviously lol.

[James]

[color=#B0251E]I think it's mostly just that when you [i]always[/i] see American teens talking about specific groups in this way, it becomes an "American thing", even if it's only the people online who are doing it (for example).

I wouldn't want to say that there's anything scientific about that, though. Certainly, a lot of the people I know well online aren't like that at all. But then again, few if any of those people seem to lack maturity in general (and I definitely think that part of the whole labeling thing comes down to a question of maturity).[/color]

[elfpirate]

[quote name='Sea Of Chaos666']I was talking to some of my friends the other day and we met a guy who said he was a goth. Later that night I was thinking "He dosen't act goth.." [/quote]
[b]I just don't really get it... if you met him that day, I would think you would be trying to determine if he were a good person or whether he was intelligent-- you know-- something with a little more [i]substance[/i] to it rather than "Does he really fit my stereotype?"... it seems -um-shallow...[/b]

[b]*shrug*-- that's just my opinion, though..[/b]

[Sea Of Chaos666]

[QUOTE=elfpirate][b]I just don't really get it... if you met him that day, I would think you would be trying to determine if he were a good person or whether he was intelligent-- you know-- something with a little more [i]substance[/i] to it rather than "Does he really fit my stereotype?"... it seems -um-shallow...[/b]

[b]*shrug*-- that's just my opinion, though..[/b][/QUOTE]

Well, at the time it was just on my mind because it was 3 in the morning and I was board so I thought about it. I had hung out with him Fom early mornig to like...twelve. Sorry if That seems shollow...

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='ShadO MagE']You know, I'd really like to thank you for labbling every one who wears black as freaks. Yes i wear black, and i'd wear the eyeliner, ect. If I could get away with it, but for now I'd rather not have to deal with the conflict it would cause. And I'd also like you to know, while I may be a freak, hell I'll even agree with you there, we are freaks, were different from the majority of people, I am in no way shape or form wasting my life. Yes taking all honors classes and latin right now is a such a waste, and two AP classes next year. Thanks for the steriotype. I thought people like you wern't supposed to judge others.[/quote]Oh I didn't mean people who simply dress in a "gothic" manner and act normal are freaks. Yeah there are many people like that and it's okay (though I still do not understand the point of dressing that way).

The "Freaks" I was referring to were the really creepy people like the example I gave earlier, the girl who "glided" again and again past my sister, smiling like she was in some sort of trance. THAT'S a freak that has no life.[/COLOR]

[Decadence]

Whats the point of dressing the way you dress or the way a "Prep" dresses, or a punk, emo, or any other stereotype's that are associated with dressing a certain way. Or whats the point of dressing the way you dress?
And who said I didn't act like that?

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='ShadO MagE']Whats the point of dressing the way you dress or the way a "Prep" dresses, or a punk, emo, or any other stereotype's that are associated with dressing a certain way. Or whats the point of dressing the way you dress?[/quote]Some styles of dress look nice, and people like to look good, so that's why they would dress that way. Personally, I dress only to cover myself. I have no "style" as you would call it.

When you dress to get negative attention (the way "Goths" do), that's something pretty pointless. Why do people want to look scary?

[QUOTE]And who said I didn't act like that?[/QUOTE]Hmm, I thought you were trying to prove you do have a life. If you are studying latin and taking honour courses, you wouldn't be wasting your time freaking people out would you? I think I was making a fair assumption, wouldn't you agree?[/COLOR]

[Decadence]

On the assumption, true enough. But what if we find the black clothes to be attractive, not to get "Negative" attention. Because I personaly, if your going to judge me based on the way I dress, why would I want to get to know you? Seems pretty shallow to base friendships ont he way people dress.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='ShadO MagE']On the assumption, true enough. But what if we find the black clothes to be attractive, not to get "Negative" attention. Because I personaly, if your going to judge me based on the way I dress, why would I want to get to know you? Seems pretty shallow to base friendships ont he way people dress.[/quote]If you simply dress in a gothic style because you actually find it attractive, I'd say that's completely fine. Sure I might not like it, but meh, you can't let me tell you how to dress.

But you have to admit, that there are many people out there who dress simply to get attention, even if it's negative attention. They want to scary, and they want people to stare at them in horror. [B]These[/B] kind of people are freaks with no lives.

Second of all, I never said dressing in black is wrong. I dress in full black all the time, but I don't go so far as to myself look like some sort of demon who came out hell.

And who ever said I was going to judge you by your looks? I don't even know you![/COLOR]

[Decadence]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
And who ever said I was going to judge you by your looks? I don't even know you![/COLOR][/QUOTE]

That comment was not specificly directed at you. Just stating the fact that to dress in all black and be judged for it seems quite shallow. No offens ment buy it towards you.
But I think this is digressing greatly from the original topic at hand,

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]The extent to which many American teens [yes, many, [b]not[/b] all] seem to judge based upon various discriminating factors is HUGE. If you ever get the chance, read "Branded: The Buying And Selling Of Teenagers". It will open your eyes to the sheer ridiculousness of much stereotyping [despite the main theme being advertising].

I think I'll stay out of this discussion from now on. Obviously, it is much easier for people outside a country [in some ways] to judge the common stereotypes and images we see in another.[/size]

[You Don't Care]

Heh heh heh heh!

I can do nothing, but chuckle on this concept of being or not being a goth. I guess the matter is as contraversal as atheism or [B]"GOD"[/B].

Could it be an actual type of group rising from the ashes of the dreaded 80's fassion?..

Could it be that all "goths" have coincidentially found a way to express themselves all at once in this time of "youth-not-careism" (not to be confused with fassion statement)?..

(realizing something)..A FASSION STATEMENT?..

Or is it just another excuse to not call it depression. A bunch of people jumping on the bandwagon with a method that isn't directly questioned (They just want to be left alone?)?

These are points of the argument that are commonly presented to me (by goths and un-goth alike) and I do not favor any one of these opinions above the other. I guess that would make me neutral and make me leave the thread undecided.

However, I think everyone here has a good point to their opinion and it should be accepted as that.

Note:
None of the above is sarcastic in ANY way.