The Quran is the word of God

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Adahn]You are right, Hume was not a linguist. That, however, has nothing to do with the fact that his philosophy is still relevant to the discussion. I?m assuming you have little knowledge of why I was referencing Hume. Obviously, this comes from a misunderstanding that you can only blame yourself for. I don?t want you to get too worked up about it so instead of lecturing you, I?ll just give you a similar advice you try to give Chabi:

Go read some Hume. Go take a Linguistics course.Now, two plus two is...?

Good luck Siren.[/QUOTE]
And which of his Philosophical foci are you talking about here? [url=http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume/#Empiricism][u]Empiricism?[/u][/url] [url=http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume/#Association][u]Association?[/u][/url] Maybe [url=http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume/#CausationN][u]Causation?[/u][/url] Or perhaps [url=http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume/#Moral][u]Ethics?[/u][/url] Or maybe [url=http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume/#Politics][u]a theologic focus?[/u][/url]

[quote name='Empiricism'] Believing that "the chief obstacle...to our improvement in the moral or metaphysical sciences is the obscurity of the ideas, and ambiguity of the terms" (EHU, 61), Hume argued that conventional definitions -- defining terms in terms of other terms -- replicate philosophical confusions by substituting synonyms for the original and thus never break out of a narrow "definitional circle." Determining the cognitive content of an idea or term requires something else.[/quote]
Is that what you're referring to? You feel that I've been pulling a definitional circle in this thread? Consider that Chabi has been trying to portray the Quran as totally immutable throughout all of eternity. She has been denying and/or ignoring the very real presence of Linguistics, and its effects on global literary canon, apparently acting like the Quran bypasses literary fact, saying that if we were just to use common sense, we would see that it's something entirely different from the Bible, Epic of Gilgamesh, etc...but it really isn't, because it does suffer from the same problems that every other text in the history of the world is subject to. Throughout the course of the thread (and in Chabi's replies), that becomes clear.

The fact that they had to change the text because the meaning was changing is pretty clear it's not immune to change. If the Quran was so beyond the "simple" rules of language, there would have never been any reason at all to change it in any way...and changes were made, because the need was there.

I keep bringing up Linguistics for a reason: because it does directly apply to what she's been arguing.

[quote name='a Theologic focus][i]The Natural History of Religion[/i] is also a [i]history[/i'] in a sense, though it has been described as "philosophical" or "conjectural" history. It is an account of the origins and development of religious beliefs, with the thinly-disguised agenda of making clear not only the nonrational origins of religion, but also of exposing and describing the pathology of its current forms. Religion began in the postulation, by primitive peoples, of "invisible intelligences" to account for frightening, uncontrollable natural phenomena, such as disease and earthquakes. In its original forms, it was polytheistic, which Hume regards as relatively harmless because of its tolerance of diversity. But polytheism eventually gives way to monotheism, when the followers of one deity hold sway over the others. Monotheism is dogmatic and intolerant; worse, it gives rise to theological systems which spread absurdity and intolerance, but which use reason to corrupt philosophical thought. But since religion is not universal in the way that our nonrational beliefs in causation or physical objects are, perhaps it can eventually be dislodged from human thinking altogether.[/quote]
While sometimes Hume is a bit too harsh, he raises worthwhile points, because religion's foundation--the reason it initially existed--is precisely based on "postulation, by primitive peoples, of 'invisible intelligences' to account for frightening, uncontrollable natural phenomena, such as disease and earthquakes."

People don't like hearing it, and some here apparently didn't appreciate my "God is a creation of Man" statement, but it is accurate. The higher power of any belief structure is a rationalization for the environment and world around a people.

It was happening in ancient times (Flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates in Mesopotamia, anyone? The Greeks? Romans?), and it's still happening today (Tsunami).

People are quick to write-off religions and belief structures of particular African tribes, because their creation myths seem too outrageous and fantastic to be worthwhile pursuits, but it's not as if the creation stories of the "major" world religions are all that reliable, either, especially given what evaluation criteria people are using to discount tribal beliefs.

I realize that people would like to hang me for saying so, but the major world religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc) are no different than the beliefs of a tribe secluded deep within the jungle in the heart of Africa. Does this make the major religions wrong? Not necessarily. But I think it is important to keep things in perspective.

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][color=#004a6f]Wooh! Finally someone who knows what I'm talking about.

Thank you Adahn![/color][/QUOTE]
What if it's not Adahn? What if the replies are actually jokes?

[Adahn]

[size=2]All parties involved love so very much to provide information that supports their idea or refutes their opponent's, but only one thing is certain. You don't [u]know[/u]. Siren believes all major religions to be myths (though he understands the context and importance of their formation), and Chabi believes the Quran to be the word of God. Winning an argument does not make your belief truth. There is only one truth, and two options. The Quran is either the word of God, or it isn't. Now, the difficulty (or impossibility) of arguing against a religious text is that nobody can say that some divine, invisible being didn't influence its writing. The difficulty of proving that some divine being wrote the text is that [u]faith[/u] would be destroyed in providing proof.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]One can look at this in a few different ways. One possibility is that religion is a powerful tool invented by a very intelligent person (or group of people) with a psychological understanding of the human reaction towards mortality. Religion is perfect in its un[u]certain[/u]ty.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Another possibility is that religion evolved in much the same way humans did. Those who can understand and embrace their mortality through a belief system would have been healthier, calmer, and all around better individuals in the context of survival (forgive my assumptions, feel free to debate them). Thus, religion is an evolutionary mechanism designed to stabilize the human mind by allowing it to take things it doesn't know or understand and apply divine explanations to them. This allows people to become unconscious of their own mortality, and allows them to focus on improving themselves rather than living in fear of what they can't control.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]The last possibility I can think of is that religion was introduced by a divine being. Don't ask me to explain this. I can try and get into the mind of one man, or humanity in general, but trying to understand religion from a divine perspective is beyond me.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]It could be any of these, or any of an unlimited number of possibilities. Some may be more likely than others (Siren makes a good point with the similarity between religious texts/myths), but no matter how overwhelmingly in favor of Siren's views the evidence may seem, he doesn't know for sure. I don't know for sure. Understanding that you [i]do not know[/i] is the first step in producing or participating in a healthy debate.[/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
Cristians believe in the Torah, they believe that it was sent down by God. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet] I thought that it was the Jews who believed in the Torah and that the Christians were the ones who followed the NEw Testement with the gospels and the acts and the Psalms and so forth. At least that's how I learned it.

I don't have enough time left on my computer card to read through 9 pages of replies so I'll just say this and then leave it at what I said:

All religions believe that their holy books are from God. Except that the Bible was written by Saints who had been around Jesus and the Torah was written by the prophets who predated Him.

I'm just going to say that no one religion is right and no one religion is wrong. Leave it at that and try to check my mail tomorrow.[/color]

[EVA Unit 100]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet] I thought that it was the Jews who believed in the Torah and that the Christians were the ones who followed the NEw Testement with the gospels and the acts and the Psalms and so forth. At least that's how I learned it.

I don't have enough time left on my computer card to read through 9 pages of replies so I'll just say this and then leave it at what I said:

All religions believe that their holy books are from God. Except that the Bible was written by Saints who had been around Jesus and the Torah was written by the prophets who predated Him.

I'm just going to say that no one religion is right and no one religion is wrong. Leave it at that and try to check my mail tomorrow.[/color][/QUOTE]

This is how it goes:

Jews believe in the Torah and the other books of the Old Testament. We believe the Torah was Moses's transcript of the word of God, but the rest of the Old Testament was written by the prophets or annonymous writters in their own words. Christians also believe in Old Testament, but they believe in the New Testament as well, which they believe was written by Jesus's desciples. And Muslims believe in the Quaran, which somewhat rewrites the Old and New Testaments, and where they believe it came from has been the topic of this thread.

BTW, the Psalms are part of the Old Testament, not New.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='EVA Unit 100'] BTW, the Psalms are part of the Old Testament, not New.[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Sorry, I can't seem to remember everything I grew up with :animeshy:.But you're right.[/color]

[Guest Teknon Theos]

As a Christian my religion teaches me tolerance, teches me that God does NOT want Automatons that worship him out of fear but rather out of love. My religion teaches me that I have the ability to either choose to accept Christ as the propitiation for me to the father or not and that the consequences are between myself and the Father for rejecting the Son.

Islam teaches to kill all non believers, to Kill all Christians (by name) and Jews (in particualr) and all Muslims that have strayed from the true path of Islam. The problem is the true path according to who. That it appears is open to translation. That the Muslims who preach tolerance and restraint have strayed from the true path as determined by a particualr sect is in itself pecualiar but that considering that Christians were klilling Christians during WWII (not over religion but over territory and politics) then I have to ask who determined that IO shoudl either convert or pay a ransom to Islam in order not to convert or to die. Here are some very pecualiar and odd passages that call for the death of all Christians and Jews, to KILL anyone who will not convert tio Islam or pay a ransom.

Actual Quotes from the Koran:

Source: ( [url]http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html[/url] )

The Muslim Bible commands Muslims to murder all non-Muslims:

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites
and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their
heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners
rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is
ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger
and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or
crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be
expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world,
and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to
them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word
is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran,
17:16-17)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the
impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast
them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to
the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the Jews and Christians:
you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of
them." (Koran, 8:12)*_

Qur?an-(5:51): O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the
Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever
amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them;
surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Qur?an-(9:5): ?But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and
slay the Christians and Jews wherever ye find them, And seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ; but if they
repent (accept Islam) and establish regular prayers and practices
regular charity then open the way for them; for God is oft-forgiving,
Most Merciful.?

Qur?an-(2:191): ?And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out
from where they have turned you out???such is the reward of those who
suppress faith.?

Qur?an-(9:29): ?Fight those who believe not the Allah nor the last day,
nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his
apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth even if they are the
people of the book, until they pay the Jizya (ransom) with willing submission,
and feel themselves subdued.?

Qur?an(48:20): ??.Allah promises you much booty (spoils of war) that you
will capture from the defeated infidels?.?

Quran-8:12: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Christians and Jews:
smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Quran-8: 15,16: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in
hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

Quran-9:123: O ye who believe! Fight those of the Christians and Jews who are
near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is
with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Quran-4:95: O ye who believe! Shall I show you a commerce that will save
you from a painful doom? You should believe in Allah and His messenger,
and should strive for the cause of Allah with your wealth and your
lives. That is better for you, if ye did but know. ... Allah hath
granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods
and persons than those who sit (at home).

Quaran [5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His
apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they
should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be
cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as
a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have
a grievous chastisement, [5.34] Except those who repent before you have
them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I am Sorry but I do not know of God in any form that needs to exact a toll in order that someone shoudl not believe in him.

ISLAM IS A LIE STRAIGHT FROM HELL! Islam is a perversion of the worship of "The Moon Goddess", Islam is a pathetic plaigerism of Krishna, Judaism, Christianity, and a host of other religions. Islam not only condones but encourages the murder of innocent people By interpretation because in the text if the person being killed is a Christian or Jew, whether innocent or not it is OK to kill them.

This is only the beginning of the perversions of Islam. There is not one mention of paradise in the Koran with regard to 72 Virgins. In fact the word virgin(s) is mention a total of TWICE and niether with regards to paradise,

The Event
[56.36] Then We have made them [B]virgins,[/B]

The Prohibition
[66.5] Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and [B]virgins.[/B]


AND paradise is NOT a place of basking in th elove of God's HOLY presence but rather a place for entertainment. So what is Paradise in Islam, a video parlor or a Brothel? Seems that is is a Video game room so where do the 72 Virgins come in to the picture. They are not mentioned anywhere in the Koran.

Cow
[2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a [B]Jew or a Christian.[/B] These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.
The Cave
[18.107] Surely (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, their place of entertainment shall be the gardens of paradise,
The Believers
[23.11] Who shall inherit the Paradise; they shall abide therein.

Everyone better wake up and smell the Coffee: These are monsters and madmen. Mohammed himself was no fine person HISTORICALLY he was a highway robber, a mercenary, he married Arabs, Jews and Christian women. The purpose of Mohammed's fabricating the Koran was for money and power, just as it is today. This is why Muslims kill muslims with as much abandon as they kill innocent women and childern. The entire Koran was written 150 plus or mius years after he was dead and itr was written by professional poets of the day. The reason it was written was to establish a Caliphate as it is today. The reason for the abandoning of Alcohol was due to the Hasshish and opium trades that were controlled by the Arabs where alcohol was not. Alcohol production could not be controlled.

Jesus Christ rose from the grave. In Islam depending on which story you believe God ascended a man along with his horse or Mohammed is Burried in Mekkah. Which is it> Is he buried or is he risen. There is no one story. They have a story for everything. The religion preaches debauchery and lust as the motivational force for which do die for and suicide as a way to eternity. Not Judaism nor Christianity condone suicide nor murder in any form.

Radical Islam is the greatest scam of the greatest number of people ever to be perpetrated on the face of the earth. It is born of Satan, Angels such as Gabriel are not beings to be feared, they are not terrible. Satan and his demons are. The description of Gabriel in the Koran sounds a lot more like Satan than a Representative of a loving God.

I have more but I do not know the space limitations here.

[renayiiq]

Well, Teknon Theos, at least Muslims follow the word of their book. I can't say the same for Christians. *cough*thecrusadesandtheinquisition*cough*

[Dagger]

[b]Teknon Theos[/b], it's our policy to let old threads stay dead. That particularly applies to inflammatory, circuitous discussions like this one. When topics such as the one at hand fade out, they generally fade out for a reason--i.e., they've run their course, and any further debate would be an exercise in futility. This one ran its course well over half a year ago.

In the future, please keep that in mind. If you have any questions, you're welcome to send a private message my way. Thanks.

Thread closed.

~Dagger~